Project HEMI 55

[chevynut]

I have been working with a local (Colorado) guy named Steve on a C4 chassis build proposal for his 55 2DHT. He's really a Mopar lover, and has a couple of them, a nice late 60's Charger and a Cuda. He has always liked 55 Chevys to so he bought one and wants to do something unique with it. Steve contacted me and asked if it was feasible to install a 426 HEMI in a C4 conversion frame. I told him just about anything's feasible with enough time and money. :)

He bought a foam mockup block that I've put in a frame we've been building and have been doing some measuring for clearances. The tough thing is he doesn't want to cut the firewall, since it's already smoothed and ready for paint. So I have no choice but to move the engine forward as far as I need to for clearance. The oilpan he brought over has a center sump so it has to go since it hits the k-member....we'll find one with a rear sump. The HEMI engine has a skirt that extends below the main caps, so we can actually cut the front of the oilpan to make it flat to clear the steering rack since it sits over the top of it in that forward position.

I don't know for sure what he plans to do in the front of the engine but the water pump pulley extends all the way to the radiator support. He's going with a cross-flow radiator but the fan situation may be an issue. Personally I'd go ahead and cut the firewall and move the engine back some, but I don't know if I can get him past that roadblock. Plus the engine is 30" wide across the heads. He's kinda hung up on the fact that the body is in the body shop ready for paint and doesn't want to modify it now. Engine positioning is just about the last thing we do so we have time to figure that out.

I have done some measurements for hood clearance since he plans to use stack-type injection in the car. I think I can get him about 12" from the top of the engine block to the bottom of the hood. He says he can make the stacks shorter if needed so I hope that's enough clearance. I am unsure of transmission tunnel clearance and I'm betting he doesn't want to cut the tunnel either. We're trying to find a tri5 cowl section to see if it fits.

Here's a couple pictures of the foam mockup engine in a frame we used to build a clip that's going to Connecticut next week.

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I told him I can build the frame, locate the engine where he wants it and build the engine mounts but making everything else fit into his car is his responsibility in the end since I don't have the car to work with. He may need some custom headers too.

His frame will be a seamless one with an AME center section, C4 Dana 44 HD rear, C4 front suspension, the HEMI and a Chrysler automatic transmission.

[56-210Sedan]

Good Grief, that Hemi is a monster in that frame :cool: and can clearly see the issue with the water pump. Could he get away with a electric water pump or would that even cut down on the size?. http://www.google.com/aclk?sa=l&ai=CE6mEXbwuVNiwPM65-QOq7YGYDd_MjbUF_7fkmsAB3-vB_LMCCAYQASC2VCgIUPvNnfr4_____wFgyY7HjfSkyBugAZGK uPQDyAEHqgQnT9BVNyIDbyUdrgtS1sFURVi0YPEPo9eFbxBB0f e_yYm01DfQvjIogAWQTsAFBaAGJoAH1_XHC5AHA6gHpr4b4BKK p7nZm6jA9vsB&sig=AOD64_15wyDxFSVWYI2ZWsnWmq64_Do_2w&ctype=5&rct=j&q=&ved=0CIkBEPQO&adurl=http://www.jegs.com/i/CSR/170/902R/10002/-1%3FCAWELAID%3D1710929395%26CAGPSPN%3Dpla%26catarg etid%3D230006180000850580%26cadevice%3Dc

[NickP]

Very cool, reminds me of the old days when we put all kinds of power plants in front of the steering wheel. Keep us updated and thanks for sharing.

[MP&C]

Stack Injectors should be proudly through the hood! ;)

[chevynut]

Marty, I'm not sure if an electric water pump will solve the problem but he's mentioned it. From the block to the front of the water pump pulley is 6 3/4".

He told me that based on my measurements the project is a "go" so I'm working on a contract and statement of work, as I always do. We're going to go ahead with the project and build the rear first. Then we'll build the basic front clip and do some more engine mockup work on it. I want to install a radiator support and take a look at his engine accessories and how they might work with a pair of electric puller fans. He wants to install A/C so pusher fans are out since I know there's no room for them on a 55, and I really don't like pushers. I'm not sure at this point whether we're going with an early or late front end, as the early front end may provide more clearance for headers since the engine is so wide. We'll have to figure that out.

I think somehow we'll make this work, even if it takes firewall modification. It seems like he really wants to do this and we have to make everything fit somehow.

One more thing.....the oil pump on a HEMI is right where the steering rack plumbing goes and it has an oil filter there. I think we can make it work with a remote oil filter.

http://www.arruzzahighperformance.com/Package/pic/511.jpg

[chevynut]

Stack Injectors should be proudly through the hood! ;)

He doesn't want to cut the hood. If he did, we would have more options.

[567chevys]

Very cool, reminds me of the old days when we put all kinds of power plants in front of the steering wheel. Keep us updated and thanks for sharing.

Hi Nick ,

The 55 you sold Jon .

He is having a Viper Motor installed in it .

Sid

[chevynut]

He is having a Viper Motor installed in it .

I'll bet he doesn't get away without cutting the firewall on that one!

[markm]

He doesn't want to cut the hood. If he did, we would have more options.

I did not cut my super nice stock hood for my tunnel ram. I bought another hood with a hole in it at a swap meet for $35.

[Rick_L]

So you think he should put a $35 POS hood on it and cut away?

[carls 56 (RIP 11/24/2021)]

size matters, that is one big engine. would luv to see that 55 when its done. money does talk. :cool:

[chevynut]

Today I got the frame stripped of all the unused original brackets and the front clip cut off, and it's ready to go into the frame jig. I think I have to prep a k-member but we're not sure if we're going with an early or late C4 front end.

We're shooting to have it done by Thanksgiving.

[Run-em]

Seems as how he is building a ride ass-backards. One solution is to lengthen the chassis in front of the firewall and lengthen the windshield cowl and front fenders. Bet he might reconsider on cutting the firewall that is ready for paint!

[chevynut]

Run-em, that's funny. But we're trying to find a solution that will require the least amount of work and $$.

One issue is that the body is in a shop in central CO and the frame is at my shop in northern CO. They're around 2.5 hours apart. I have suggested that we take a look at his radiator, fans, engine accessories, and other factors and see what needs to be done to make it all work together. I think Steve has a reasonable head on his shoulders and will end up doing what needs to be done to make the car work. But neither of us want to force something that doesn't need to be forced, and I want to try to get him to the best solution.

One thing I'm pretty sure of is that if the firewall has to be modified, this is going to require a custom firewall solution. Most of the firewalls I've seen are set back about 24-25" wide, but this engine is at least 30" wide. In fact, it just occurred to me that it's going to most likely require some brake pedal/booster considerations too. Any of this can be done, it just depends on the time and budget.

[chevynut]

Steve came over yesterday and we did a mockup of the engine, radiator support, firewall, and looked at some headers he had from his Hemi 'Cuda. With the back of the passenger head touching the stock firewall, the front of the water pump pulley would be roughly touching the back of a radiator in the 6-cylinder position. The HEMI head is about 1/2" longer than a BBC, and with the water pump attached the engine is at least 3" longer, maybe more.

So we're convinced that he will have to cut his firewall and recess it, as I suspected. I have recommended that he doesn't make any decisions as to how much to recess it until we finalize the engine location. I have also recommended that he get a SPAL dual 11" fan like PRC uses, and we can put it in the radiator support and locate the engine based on that fan setup.

In order to maximize the header clearance, we decided to keep the k-member low in the frame. So we're doing a 2" front suspension drop instead of our normal 3". He doesn't want a really low car anyhow, so this works well. And he can lower it more with his coilovers if he wants to. We also decided to go with a late C4 front suspension because he likes it better.

Steve thinks hood clearance isn't a problem because he can make the injector stacks as short as he needs to. So we're planning to keep the engine relatively high in the frame, in about the same position it would be with a 3" suspension drop. That will give us more header clearance from the C4 uprights. When the k-member goes up, the engine has to go up because it sits over the steering rack.

What surprised me was that his HEMI Cuda header from the driver's side fit almost like it was made for this application, based on a rough mockup. The passenger side is a no-go so we'll have to find some other headers or manifolds. This may require modification of an off-the-shelf header set or a custom built set.

So we're ready to start building the front end. I have the rear nearly completed.

[chevynut]

Here's a couple of mockup pics...

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[chevynut]

Over the weekend we built the rear shock crossmember for HEMI 55 and tacked it into the frame. I actually cut parts for 10 of them on my bandsaw, over 50 cuts in all :p. We built the front frame rails and got them fitted together ready for tacking. Today I ordered the AME center section parts so I can get started on assembling it when they arrive.

[JT56]

Is the Hemi and BBC roughly weight the same? Assuming both same parts(iron or aluminum heads)

[chevynut]

Is the Hemi and BBC roughly weight the same? Assuming both same parts(iron or aluminum heads)

"Roughly" I would say the HEMI is heavier. I'm not sure about the block weight but the heads are huge. The blocks are similar in size. If they both had aluminum heads the difference would not be as much. I saw a reference that said a single iron HEMI head was 119 pounds.

I found this online:

OEM Mopar Engine Weights
Here's a small list of [approximate] weights for stock engines.
Note most of these are fully dressed engines with stock parts.
We all know the savings to be had with aluminum intakes, ect...

331/354 Hemi with alum. intake and water pump - 504
392 Hemi with alum. intake and water pump ------ 564
Slant 6 --------------------------------------------- 525
273-340 ------------------------------------------- 525
360------------------------------------------------- 560
361-400 ------------------------------------------- 620
413-440 ------------------------------------------- 670
426 Street Hemi ----------------------------------- 765


From personal experience (as reported by the engine builder):

my 426 Street Hemi weighed in at 843 before the modifications began (it's not called the Elephant for nothing). When finished at 505 ci, with every piece of aluminum and alloys that could be used in and on the original cast iron block, it weighs 610 pounds.


And this:

Mopar 170 6-cyl--------------- 465
------ 225 6-cyl--------------- 500
------ 273 V-8---------------- 550
------ 318 V-8---------------- 605
------ 361 V-8---------------- 640
------ 383 V-8---------------- 650
------ 426-Hemi--------------- 725
------ 440 V-8---------------- 685

Buick 300 V-8----------------- 470 (no flywheel)
----- 340 V-8----------------- 500 (no flywheel)
----- 401 V-8----------------- 640
----- 425 V-8----------------- 650

Cadillac 429 V-8--------------- 600 (no flywheel)

Chevrolet 230 6-cyl------------ 465
--------- 250 6-cyl------------ 480
--------- 283 V-8 2-bbl-------- 575
--------- 283 V-8 4 bbl-------- 585
--------- 327 V-8------------- 610
--------- 396 V-8------------- 687
--------- 427 V-8------------- 700

http://www.ultimatecarpage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=39353

But I think the table is bogus. Why would a 327 weigh more than a 283, and a 427 more than a 396? Just because of more displacement?

[Algoma56]

So you think he should put a $35 POS hood on it and cut away?

Maybe it's only a POS, because of the hole. I put 2 fenders for a 34 Ford together, both bought cheap due to their faults, but worked out good for me. What was good on the fenders, was good!

[Rick_L]

Algoma, sometimes you get lucky. But my reply was sarcastic - I guess you didn't notice that?

On the engine weights, the only reason for variations between 283 and 327 or 396 and 427 is component weight differences - and there no differences in the factory components, at least not that big.

[chevynut]

Today we pulled the 55 HEMI frame out of the frame jig after assembling the modified AME center section and re-installing the front clip. We still have some welding to do on it, and have to fab engine and transmission mounts once we determine engine placement. We did add HT body mounts since this is for a 55 2DHT.


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[chevynut]

Steve came over last week and we reviewed engine placement. I put a radiator support on the frame with a SPAL 11" dual fan setup clamped to it. We got some pulley dimensions from March Performance for the accessory setup he plans to use. We pushed the engine as far forward as we could, and it looks like it's about 3" into the firewall as measured from the front face of it.

He brought over some aftermarket Schumacher HEMI engine mounts that I was going to try to use but they're not working out. I thought I could use the bushings and tubes as well as the block brackets. The brackets bolt to the engine ok but the design is such that if I welded the frame piece to the frame, you couldn't pull the engine out. So I decided it would be better to start from scratch, and I build these block brackets out of 3/16" steel.

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Then I ordered some urethane bushings that are 1.5" OD and .75" ID. Inside of these will be a .75" OD/ x .5" ID steel sleeve that I'll make out of DOM tubing. These will go into a DOM tube with 1.5" ID that I picked up yesterday which will be attached to the frame. I think the 3/8" of wall on the urethane bushings will give us the cushion we need. I also need to make a transmission mount out of urethane bushings and DOM tubing, since a stock mount that works is not available.

[chevynut]

I got the urethane bushings this weekend and made the engine mount tubes out of 2" DOM tubing with 1/4" wall. I originally though the tubing might be a little too big, but I think it will work out just fine. Also made the longer sleeve out of 3/4" DOM tubing with 1/8" wall. I pressed the assemblies together to attach them to the engine mounts I built, and now I have to make the plates to attach them to the frame.

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[chevynut]

We finally got the crank pulley from March, and it was bigger than what both of their tech guys told me it was at 7 7/16" diameter and 4" deep. So with that dimension and the 3" dimension of the crank centerline above the bottom of the block, I mocked up the damper and pulley on the foam block and finished fabbing the engine mounts. The crank pulley sits a about 1/4" above the swaybar and the water pump pulley about 1" behind the fan shroud. I will have to notch the driver's side engine mount for the steering shaft.

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[chevynut]

We finished the transmission mount today. I couldn't find a suitable urethane or rubber mount for a Torqueflite transmission so I had to design and build a custom mount and crossmember. The mounting holes ended up almost in the center of the exhaust holes so we had to design around that.


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We also notched the driver's side engine mount for steering shaft clearance. We'll weld a tube in the notch to close it up. The interesting thing about a Hemi is the mounts aren't the same fore-aft location on both sides. Luckily, the driver's side mount is further back.

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[MP&C]

Looking good Laszlo! Nice to get out of your comfort zone every now and then, huh?

[chevynut]

Thanks Robert. This build was a pretty "normal" C4 build for us except for the engine and transmission which required a bunch of design and custom fab work. We lost a month of time waiting on March to deliver that crank pulley so we could determine final engine position. The 55 Gasser is more out of my comfort zone than this project! :)

This frame should be finished this coming Tuesday, and then we can get the gasser frame out of the frame jig and finish the front end and engine mounts.

[chevynut]

Well the project HEMI55 frame is completed. Here's few pics....

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[JT56]

Frame looks good! I like the shop, looks like a show room! Congrats, now will you have time for the nomad lol?

[chevynut]

now will you have time for the nomad lol?

Thanks JT. :)

Well we still have to finish the gasser frame then we have another almost identical C4 frame to build for another customer with a BBC. I am working on the Nomad though. Trying to finish my door panel armrests and I found a guy to machine my custom stainless trim for me. Going to drop the material off this afternoon.

Soon I plan to continue blocking my front end sheetmetal and begin taking the car apart piece by piece. I can still work on the interior while I do that. I want to get the frame out from under it so I can finish a few details and take it to the painter.

[Justin@ECP]

Loving the fab work on the frame!

[chevynut]

Thanks Justin. This one took us longer than usual, due to the Hemi engine mounts. We're still working on the 55 Gasser frame and the Earle Williams ladder bar kit should be here today.

[chevynut]

The HEMI 55 frame is gone. Yesterday Steve came to pick it up and we spent a couple hours bolting the suspension on temporarily so he knew how it all went together. There are no coilovers on it so it's sitting way lower than intended.


4009 4010 4011

[chevynut]

Well the Hemi 55 is back in the shop. Steve took it to a shop near Denver to have the car built, and decided that for the interim he was going to put a 440 Indy engine into it instead of a Hemi. He wanted the guys there to adapt the 440 to the engine mounts we put on the frame, but instead they cut our mounts off :eek:. Then they located the engine, which is 2" shorter than the Hemi, based on our transmission mount instead of where it needed to be in the front. When it was all said and done, they cobbled together some mounts, had to cut the firewall out so the engine would fit, and Steve was pissed. So he pulled the car out of the shop and I agreed to help him get it back on track.

[WagonCrazy]

You never mentioned cutting the trans tunnel but I'll bet you end up doing that as well. Does he want to get the Hemi back in there?

[Rick_L]

I thought a late model Hemi and a 440 wedge were the same basic block dimensions (bore spacing, timing cover, etc.) Why is the 440 2" shorter?

[NickP]

http://www.crankshaftcoalition.com/wiki/Engine_internal_and_external_specifications Scroll down to the bottom for Dimensional's.

[Rick_L]

The link does show that the bore spacing is the same.

The difference must be in the front end of the engine, if it's accurate. Timing cover, water pump, etc.


This article needs further development.

[chevynut]

Here's some pics of the '55 in the shop today. The shop he had it at cut the tranny tunnel out and I'm not sure they needed to do that. Steve added a Gear Vendors OD and they had to modify the AME crossmember we built for it to make it fit. Steve wants us to do a bunch of work on it, but I'm not a rod shop and I don't know how much I want to do on it beyond the chassis work.

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Steve has 4 car projects going on right now.....this 55, a 55 gasser for his brother that we built a chassis for right after this one, a 70 Cuda, and a 68 Charger. They're all under construction at different shops and he's getting frustrated with things not getting done. The Charger was supposed to be in the shop for a couple of months, and it's been a year. He just bought a new Hellcat engine that you apparently can't even buy from Mopar unless you have a VIN for a car with a blown engine through some guy in Florida. He just got the engine yesterday. I don't know what he paid for it but that's going into the 70 Cuda which is a resto-mod. The 68 Charger has a 426 Hemi in it and its almost finished based on the pics he showed me.

He decided that he's not going to go with a Hemi in this car, since he has so much going on. Apparently Hemis have become so expensive and a bare block costs over $5K now. So he's just going with this engine now and it's staying that way with no plans for a Hemi.

[NickP]

The link does show that the bore spacing is the same.

The difference must be in the front end of the engine, if it's accurate. Timing cover, water pump, etc.

I suspect it's pretty general but it is used by NHRA for tech inspection or at least it alludes to that. I'm only the messenger however always thought the same Rick. I did some searches but this, for now is all I could find.

[chevynut]

Here's something Steve sent me but I don't know how accurate it is. He has an electric water pump on the engine that extends way forward but he says it's not significantly longer than a stock mechanical pump.



Engine
Displacement
A
length
B
length
C
height
D
height
E
width
DIST
SUMP
STARTER
OIL
FILTER
WEIGHT







































Mopar
273/360
29.50
29.50
23.50
31.00
25.00
rear
front
left
right rear
525/560


Mopar V10
488/505
36.88
36.88
23.50
x
25.00
x
front
left
right rear
716/816


Mopar
350/440
29.00
30.00
24.00
30.50
29.50
front
center
left
left front
620/670


Mopar
331/392 Hemi
32.00
31.00
24.00
31.00
29.00
rear
center
left
right rear
729/745


Mopar
Late Hemi
32.00
32.00
24.00
32.00
29.00
front
center
left
left front
765




http://www.carnut.com/specs/side.jpg

A - Length from rear of intake manifold to water pump pulley
B - Length from rear mounting surface to water pump pulley
C - Height from bottom of sump to highest point of intake manifold
D - Height from bottom of sump to top of carburetor
E - Width outside of valve cover to outside of valve cover

[NickP]

That data is at the very bottom of the link I posted. I was always of the opinion that the blocks were the same dimensionally, i.e. length but I know physically, there are other differences.

[chevynut]

I got the body off the frame a while ago using some simple brackets I made for the rear body mounts, a spreader bar, and an engine hoist. I used a similar setup in front:

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6616

Then I pulled the engine, installed a Milodon remote oil filter adapter to eliminate the interference with the rack, rotated the rack, and repositioned the engine further forward and down as low as it will go.

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Unfortunately the custom-built headers don't fit anymore, but Steve thought they were crap anyhow. The other shop hacked up a new set of headers he had and threw them in the trash, which is where these are going.

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I cut out these crappy engine mounts the other shop built to get ready to build a new set. Notice the steering shaft notch doesn't even line up with the rack, and there's no way to remove the upper a-arm bolt on the driver's side.

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Then I mocked up the radiator support and SPAL fans and did the final engine positioning.

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After moving the engine forward as far as possible, the Gear Vendors overdrive still fits but the speedo sensor notch will have to be modified. I will also have to modify the transmission mount to lower the GV unit a little and move everything forward. We ended up gaining about 3/4". That doesn't sound like a lot, but the engine mounts had to be re-done anyhow to get the front of the engine down, which was Steve's biggest complaint.


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[NickP]

Seems to defeat the purpose of a C4 front suspension don't you think?

55 RD, is it your intent to mess with every single post on this site? If your intent is to destroy it, then my suggestion to the owner is to do away with either the site, you or me so I don't have to witness the demise of it.

[chevynut]

55 RD, is it your intent to mess with every single post on this site?

The dumbass buys a C4 frame and all he does is bash everything about it.

I'm doing what the owner wants me to do, so STFU RD. All of your ignorant posts like this will be deleted from All of MY progress threads. If you want to start threads of your own to bash what you bought, go for it.

[WagonCrazy]

I enjoy when you explain your work (including what you're trying to accomplish) and post pictures of each step. It helps us all visualize better, and allows others to ask questions when they see something they either suspect or are confused by. Keep it up Laszlo...the world of Tri5 builders is better off when we all use this forum to help each other get these cars built. ;)

[chevynut]

I enjoy when you explain your work (including what you're trying to accomplish) and post pictures of each step. It helps us all visualize better, and allows others to ask questions when they see something they either suspect or are confused by. Keep it up Laszlo...the world of Tri5 builders is better off when we all use this forum to help each other get these cars built. ;)

Thanks Paul, I don't mind questions about what I'm doing except when the questions are nothing more than thinly-veiled criticisms, insults, or snide comments just to start an argument. If someone wants to discuss the benefits or deficiencies of a C4 suspension, they can start their own thread or go post on one that already exists and not continually disrupt my build threads with OT posts or irrelevant comments.

This build has been kind of unique, that's why I've chosen to post a thread about it. There are some challenges that we don't face with other engine installations we do. ;)

[chevynut]

Well, just when I was getting into the design of the engine mounts for the 440, Steve contacted me and wanted to talk about something. He found an early 392 Hemi with dual quads and the price is supposedly so low he can't pass it up. I looked over pics of some of these engines and don't see any big showstopper, so now we're back to a Hemi. :eek: :p

I have to pull the 440 back out and put the body back on the frame to store the car for a couple weeks until he gets the engine and adapter for the 727 Torqueflyte. I have two other frames to build so I need to get working on them and will get back to the Hemi55 when I can.

[BamaNomad]

go slow... it might give him time to change his mind again.. back to what's in there now... :)

[chevynut]

go slow... it might give him time to change his mind again.. back to what's in there now... :)

LOL! Yeah that's what I was thinking. I didn't quote any of this so he's paying me by the hour. :)

[chevynut]

We finished up the 392 Hemi installation, re-do of the shocks, patching some frame cutouts the other shop made, modifying the tranny mount, and putting it all together with a new tranny, torque converter and adapter kit. I made new lines for the rack, which I rotated for the 440 installation, but which were not needed for the 392 :p. His header selection limited where I could put the engine so I put it as low and as far forward as I could, but it's still pretty far (~2.5") into the firewall.

Steve wanted me to build a new firewall and fix the floor that the other shop cut out, but I don't have time for that. But I did agree to hook up his steering. I have the body back on and he's sending me a FR column. Should be done next week.

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[chevynut]

Forgot to post updates on this thread. I got the car back together earlier this year and Steve came to pick it up. We were talking about the firewall and somehow I talked myself into making one for him. :p The project has been on the back burner for a few months with vacations, hunting, and finishing up a couple of frames, as well as trying to get my car done.

I made a cardboard pattern around the engine to get an idea of what I was looking at. This engine is a MONSTER. I ended up with an opening 36" wide to clear the valve covers. Steve wanted me to try to fit the VA A/C too, and I told him that I'd try to make it work but can't guarantee it.

Here's the start of the fitting of the main firewall faceplate.

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Here's the main plate with the top piece tacked to it. The distributor sits 4" back from the firewall face but the valve covers are only about 2" back. So I decided to make the setback plate curved to try to make as much room as possible for the AC.

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Here's the setback plate. I made the center set back 4 1/2" and the ends 2 3/4":

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And here's the pieces ready to start trimming and welding it all together. I'm going to try fitting it all into the car first to make sure I can remove the valve covers.

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[JT56]

Nice work CN...When done he will definitely have a WOW factory...LS Swap Nah lol

[BamaNomad]

There was a '55 Nomad at the Nomad Convention this year with an early Hemi in it... I thought it was very neat. Also had a custom chassis but I didn't get much info on what it was...

[chevynut]

Did a little more work on the firewall. I located the two lower hood hinge holes from the inside of the car and drilled them. Then I needed to make sure I could get the passenger side valve cover off with the firewall in place, so I blasted all the edges for welding and tacked the setback plate in place. I also did some rough measurements and cut out the bellhousing relief so it was close to the bellhousing. In order to fit the firewall to the car I had to cut the floor on both sides to fit. The last shop this car was at hacked out the tranny tunnel and part of the toe boards, for some reason. That's partly why Steve made them stop working on it.

To get the firewall in position for a test fit, I either had to remove the body or remove the engine....I did both, but I only raised the body in front about 6". Then I reinstalled the engine and lowered the body so I could get the bellhousing relief cut out close to the bellhousing with the body down. And I can get the valve cover off!

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Once I got the body all the way down I laid out the final bellhousing cutout, removed the engine and firewall, and trimmed everything. Then I reinstalled the firewall, engine, and lowered the body back down.

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I still have to locate the upper hood hinge holes which I'm doing with clay since you can't get to them from inside the car. Next I have to make the cutout for the steering column and mount it. Once that's done, I'll remove the firewall one more time and weld it up, then put it back in the body and weld it in.

[WagonCrazy]

Its alot of work to redo a firewall and trans floor panel. As you already know. But your pics look like you're getting there.

[chevynut]

Its alot of work to redo a firewall and trans floor panel.

Especially when you have to design the firewall before you build it around a 36" wide engine, then fab it (with a curved setback) and check if it fits. I haven't even welded the thing up and there's probably 25-30 feet of welds. :geek:

I'll get there, and I hope Steve can afford it! :p

[Belair-o]

Chevynut,
Wow, not a trivial exercise; lot of moving large parts (body) around to figure out what the new pieces need to look like! That hemi is a monster!
Regards, Doug

[chevynut]

Wow, not a trivial exercise;

No kidding :geek:. I talked to Steve about the cost of all of this, and he doesn't seem all that concerned. He just wants it done. I've already accumulated quite a bit of time on this just getting it into the shop, removing the front sheetmetal, cutting out the old firewall that had 1/4" or more of bondo on it, making a pattern or two, and fabbing and fitting the firewall parts. I gave him an estimate of the remaining time and figure it's about the same as I've already spent so far not counting any floor repairs.

Notice that the setback edge is right in the middle of where the brake master cylinder is supposed to go, and where the steering column comes through the firewall. I marked the steering column center on the toe board as you can see, before I cut the old firewall. Yesterday I took a spare brake pedal brace I had and cut it off to fit, and now I have to build a bracket to support it at the back of the firewall. I installed an instrument cluster I had along with some extra dash brace rods. This car didn't have any of that in it so I'm glad I had some spare parts ;). Once I got that stuff installed I located and cut a hole for the steering column and hooked up the steering linkage. Now I have to build some structure around it to attach the Flaming River column mount Steve bought.

I noticed also that the firewall setback limits the brake pedal travel to 1.5"-2" from the floor. The pedal arm hits the firewall near the bottom so I'm not sure what we're going to do. Steve talked about using a brake pedal through the floor with a master cylinder on the frame, but I may be able to address the travel issue when I build the column structure. Even so, the master cylinder can't be in the stock location. Lots of engineering and fab work left to do but I'm not sure I'm going to be the one to do it.:eek:

The good news is Steve is going to bring his 28? foot enclosed trailer up for me to use to haul my Nomad to the painter. :)

[chevynut]

I got the stock brake pedal brace cut down and flanges welded onto it. I made a bracket that's going to be welded to the back of the firewall to mount it to.

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As you can see I cut the hole for the steering column. Steve bought a billet Flaming River column mount but the column is 2" and the mount is 1 3/4"! So we're going to use an Ididit one like mine that's a little smaller and fits better. Plus I can use mine to set it all up instead of waiting for his to arrive. ;)

Next I have to build the support structure for the column and then the firewall can come back out for welding.

I still don't know what we're going to do about the brake pedal, or whether we'll even use the stock one. It's not something I agreed to address, but I have some ideas and may end up designing and building it for him. :)

[567chevys]

Looks good ,

Tons of work .
Hope he likes it .

Sid

[chevynut]

I've been working on the steering column mount and I knew it was going to be a challenge because of where it came through the firewall, and the engine clearance. I made a cardboard mockup to get close, then I went ahead and bent up a sheetmetal mount that will be welded to the firewall. This mount should address the brake pedal travel issue, since it allow at least 1" more room for the brake pedal to move toward the firewall.

Here's the final piece with the cutout for the Ididit column mount. It took a lot of trimming and fitting to get it to fit right....

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Once I got it to fit I dropped the engine and tranny in place and checked the fit (for the second time)...

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It's tight at the valve cover, but I have about 3/4" to the mount, and around 1/2" to the IDIDIT piece at the closest place. I installed the steering shaft and u-joints and confirmed that I have around 3/16" or more clearance to the headers and a-arm shafts.

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Here's a view from the inside before cutting out the brake pedal relief in the firewall. I'll do that after I tack the mount in place. I also installed an instrument cluster I had to make sure it all fit. I pushed the 32" column as far forward as possible to get the best steering shaft angle to the rack, and to clear the instrument bezel. The bottom of the column is 1/8" to 1/4" outboard of the stock location to help with header clearances.

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Next I have to remove the firewall and weld the whole thing up, then install it and weld it into the body. I think Steve's wanting me to set up his brakes too, and I have some ideas for that. Going to probably use a Hydroboost and move it 6" or so outboard of the stock location.

[Belair-o]

Chevynut,
Wow, very creative and innovative design and fabrication job. You are making fast progress on the puzzle of making it all work!
Regards, Doug

[WagonCrazy]

My gawd that's close to those headers and valve cover! Can you even get to the header bolts to tighten/remove them? Good work Laszlo...

[chevynut]

Paul, the header bolts are no problem. I always think about having to work on stuff when I design something.

I got the firewall welded together but haven't welded it to the body yet. I don't want to paint myself into a corner so I want to do all the fab work I can before the firewall gets welded in

Next problem.....if you look at the firewall you'll see there's no place to put a master cylinder in front of the brake pedal. I gave Steve the option of going through the floor and trying to get some sort of booster on the frame, which I wouldn't commit to working on, or moving the booster and master cylinder toward the driver's side. We tentatively decided to use a hydroboost on the firewall.

Then I did some measuring and I bolted on the hood hinge.

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The sharpie lines show the area I have to work with. Unfortunately, a hydroboost won't fit in that area due to the accumulator. With the accumulator in the 2 oclock position the hood hinge interferes, and with it in the 7 o'clock position the valve cover can't be removed.

So I gave Steve a couple of options to address that......a manual brake master cylinder, or an ABS electric booster. He decided to go with the electric booster. I'm not sure how well manual brakes would work on this application. This is what we're using....

https://image.adam.automotive.com/f/18006559/mump_0905_01_z+abs_power_brakes+electric_hi_po_mas ter_cylinder.jpg

The horizontal line shows the approximate vertical location of the master cylinder centerline. For the electric booster I plan to decrease the pedal ratio from 6:1 to 4:1 which I think will work better. So the booster will be about 1" lower than that line. Once it gets here I'll finalize the location and cut the hole.

I've also been working on the pedal assembly. I decided to make the pedal turn a 1" rod in order to move the booster over around 6". So I removed the stock pivot and machined a rod to fit snugly into the brake pedal. The right end will have a bearing boss welded to the pedal bracket, with a 3/4" ID sintered bushing in it. The pedal will be solidly joined to the shaft with a bolt through the pedal and shaft.

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At the other end I'll make a bracket that bolts to a 1/8" thick plate on the firewall (which will be welded to it) and the bracket will have another sintered bushing in it. The actuating lever will be welded to the rod once everything is fabbed up.

[WagonCrazy]

What if you talked your customer into using a 1 piece forward tilt front end? Then you could ditch the hood hinges altogether and pick up the room needed for the hydroboost?

Ditch the inner fenders too and you could do fenderwell headers on that Hemi!

[chevynut]

What if you talked your customer into using a 1 piece forward tilt front end? Then you could ditch the hood hinges altogether and pick up the room needed for the hydroboost?

Ditch the inner fenders too and you could do fenderwell headers on that Hemi!

If I had my hood hinges "productized" that's what we would be using. But that's a project for some other day....maybe. ;) I don't know if aftermarket billet hinges would help or not. But there's another issue.....if I go over too far and down with the booster/MC, the tire could hit the master cylinder on full compression. A HB/MC is about 14" long. I designed mine a little differently keeping the height the same, and even with the shorter 10" booster and MC it's close to the tire. Imagine if this was 4" longer and 1" lower:

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I tried talking Steve into a set of custom headers so I could move the engine forward a little more, but he said no. I 's sure fenderwell headers would have to be custom too, and they probably would have caused even more problems.

[chevynut]

Steve got the ABS Power Brake booster ordered and it should be here Wednesday. I the meantime I worked some more on the brake pedal assembly.

I finished off the end of the shaft and and drilled a retainer bolt hole, and welded the bushing boss to the brace assembly. Then I drilled the pedal and shaft to lock them together. I fabbed a lever 3" long on centers with two additional holes for adjustments if Steve wants to tweak the braking. The 3" hole gives a 4:1 pedal ratio.


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Once the booster arrives I'll finalize the location and cut the holes in the firewall for it. I also have a plate I made that will be welded in to support that area. The last piece will be a bracket with another bushing on the left end that will be bolted to that plate.

[chevynut]

Got the booster the other day and located it and cut and drilled the holes to fasten it to the firewall. The hood hinge does interfere with it so I talked to Steve about it and he'll use some after-market hinges if he has to. The hinge doesn't seem to sit perfectly vertical in the stock holes so maybe the hinge is tweaked. I told him he may be able to make the stock hinges work but I'm not sure. In any case, I'm not worrying about it ;).

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After getting it mounted I found out that the pushrod is just about the perfect length....so that will save me some work not having to re-do it. :)


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[chevynut]

Got the firewall welded in today. Still have some work at the toe boards and the tranny hump. Steve wants me to rebuild the floor of the car that the other shop hacked.

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Here's what I did on the left end of the brake shaft. In order to disassemble this without removing the whole brake brace, pedal, and shaft as a unit, I put a removable bushing on the left end. This way the bushing can be removed allowing the bracket to be removed, then the shaft can be pulled out. Otherwise the whole assembly would have to be installed and removed as a unit.

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Next I have to do some filling and priming of the firewall and cowl, then install the brake assembly and booster/MC for the final time. Then I have to locate the Lokar gas pedal and mount it and finish the floor and tunnel. I guess I'll need to mount the brake pump too. :p

[chevynut]

After building the firewall and replacing the entire floor, trunk, and outer rear wheelhouses, the Hemi55 finally went out of my shop in mid 2020.

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[Belair-o]

Chevynut,
Wow, lots of major work - that hemi is a beast. Do you have any pics from when the car was completed by the owner? As I recall, the owner lives in Castle Rock, CO, down in my neck of the woods, so if I saw a recent pic, I will know that was the car you labored over when I see it.
Regards, Doug

[chevynut]

Do you have any pics from when the car was completed by the owner? As I recall, the owner lives in Castle Rock, CO, down in my neck of the woods, so if I saw a recent pic, I will know that was the car you labored over when I see it.

Doug, as far as I know Steve hasn't finished it. Last I knew he didn't have a shop that he felt comfortable taking the car to. I did a lot more on it than I originally agreed to do, which essentially was to build a chassis. We originally set it up for a 426 Hemi when it left my shop the first time. He took it to another shop in Ft. Lupton to finish, and they jacked up the frame and engine mounts to change it to a 440 since a Hemi was so expensive. He didn't like the way the engine sat, and they made some garbage engine mounts for it. They also screwed up the pinion angle and a bunch of other stuff. So I agreed to re-position the engine and do some other work on things they screwed up and he ended up changing the engine again to a 392.

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These are the engine mounts I built for the 426:

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And this is how it came back for the 440:

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These are what I built for the 392 using pieces of the 426 mounts we salvaged:

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[Belair-o]

Ha! The engine mount change by the other shop made me laugh. :D
Butchers comes to mind.