Nomad C4 chassis assembly

[chevynut]

Thought I'd start a thread on the assembly of my C4 Nomad chassis. I got the first parts polished and installed last night. It feels good to put parts on for the last time. :)

These are my stainless steel exhaust hangers I fabbed:

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5050&stc=1


I'm working on polishing my fuel tank and fuel lines, so they can be installed permanently too. I plan to install the brake lines, exhaust, and anything else I can install. Still trying to figure out how to coat polished suspension parts.

[NickP]

I like progress with pics! Well done!!!!!:)

[Bluegrass Trifive]

Thought I'd start a thread on the assembly of my C4 Nomad chassis. I got the first parts polished and installed last night. It feels good to put parts on for the last time. :)

These are my stainless steel exhaust hangers I fabbed:

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5050&stc=1


I'm working on polishing my fuel tank and fuel lines, so they can be installed permanently too. I plan to install the brake lines, exhaust, and anything else I can install. Still trying to figure out how to coat polished suspension parts. It's looking very good! You mentioned coating polished parts and I've been thinking about that too. I've seen clear powder coat material advertised but never seen anything that I knew for sure had it on it. Anyone have any experience with it?

[chevynut]

Take a look here Bluegrass. BTW, did you ever find those rack fittings for hoses?

https://www.facebook.com/Ult1mate-431101560298974/timeline/

https://vimeo.com/66486376

I've been trying to get ahold of these guys...they're in Australia but supposedly setting up dealers/applicators in the US.

[Bluegrass Trifive]

Take a look here Bluegrass. BTW, did you ever find those rack fittings for hoses?

https://www.facebook.com/Ult1mate-431101560298974/timeline/

https://vimeo.com/66486376
I've been trying to get ahold of these guys...they're in Australia but supposedly setting up dealers/applicators in the US. I'll check them out Thanks! About the rack fittings ... I never found anything that would work but I have found some I can re-machine. I just received a custom ground tool I ordered that will machine the seat at the correct angle and the diameter for tapping. I have a couple of fittings with your name on them! I'll try to get them machined in the next couple of weeks and if all works out I'll give you a shout for shipping info.

[rustay56]

I'm working on polishing my fuel tank and fuel lines, so they can be installed permanently too. I plan to install the brake lines, exhaust, and anything else I can install. Still trying to figure out how to coat polished suspension parts.

Lazslo, Do you know about this product .http://www.por15.com/GLISTEN-PC_p_45.htm I have used it on an alloy diff center with good results.

Regards Andrew

[Aussienomad]

Take a look here Bluegrass. BTW, did you ever find those rack fittings for hoses?

https://www.facebook.com/Ult1mate-431101560298974/timeline/

https://vimeo.com/66486376

I've been trying to get ahold of these guys...they're in Australia but supposedly setting up dealers/applicators in the US.

That website is dead, and a google search fro ult1mate comes up with nothing as well. I thought of ZoopSeal, but apparently they stopped production some time ago. When googling zoopseal I found that it is now ShineSeal and they are based in California.

Cheers, Des

[carls 56 (RIP 11/24/2021)]

looking good Lazlo. :cool:

[chevynut]

I don't know what's going on with Ult1mate. A couple of weeks ago their website worked. I had a guy respond to my questions about their product. Now nobody will say anything to me, the website looks to be down, etc., but their FB page still seems to be active. Mick used their process on his C4 parts and supposedly it's guaranteed for 10 years. Zoopseal supposedly only lasts a couple of years. I've read some negative things about Glisten too.

[chevynut]

I never found anything that would work but I have found some I can re-machine. I just received a custom ground tool I ordered that will machine the seat at the correct angle and the diameter for tapping. I have a couple of fittings with your name on them! I'll try to get them machined in the next couple of weeks and if all works out I'll give you a shout for shipping info.

Thanks a bunch Bluegrass trifive! Are you looking at an adapter or a hose end? Sounds like you're planning on an adapter that fits onto the rack's 45 degree metric threads. ;)

[chevynut]

Got a little more polishing and assembly done today. Wow, that polishing sure takes a lot of time. :eek: I had a bunch of AN fittings and stainless tubing to polish for both the fuel and brake lines. I chased all the threads in the frame and cut the grounding point NPT threads a little deeper to make sure I had good electrical contact on both ends. I also installed some of 5/16" button head screws to cap off the top of my fuel tank mounting holes to keep water out and finish them off nicely. Once I finish polishing my stainless fuel tank I can mount it in the frame and finish the fuel line plumbing. It doesn't seem like much, but it's several hours work to get this done. One step at a time..... ;)

I also heard back from Ult1mate Coatings and they're sending me a "trial kit" so I can see what their aluminum coatings are like.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5065&stc=1

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5066&stc=1

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5067&stc=1

[carls 56 (RIP 11/24/2021)]

just beautiful. going to be a shame to cover it up with the body.

[chevynut]

I've gotten some more work done on the assembly the past few days along with the polishing of the fuel tank which is almost done. I've polished my fuel and brake lines, a bunch of stainless AN fittings, stainless line clamps and button head screws, and got it installed. I also got the Wilwood proportioning valve installed with polished stainless fittings.

Once I get the tank installed I can make the fuel line connections and I just have a couple more brake lines to install in front. Then I'll start working on the exhaust system.


http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5077&stc=1

[rockytopper R.I.P 5-13-2017]

LIKE!!!

[My55]

Lot of cool mods on that 56 Nomad! Looks like you're on your way to a nice show piece!!!:):D

[chevynut]

Thanks My55. It's been a long road with this car but it's coming together.

Yesterday I found a little time to work on it some more. I now have all the brake lines polished and installed on the frame. The fuel lines on the tank are polished and there's only the two lines that connect the tank to the frame to do. I hope to have the fuel tank done this week, but my brother is visiting so that's taking up most of my time. ;)

[My55]

Thanks My55. It's been a long road with this car but it's coming together.

Yesterday I found a little time to work on it some more. I now have all the brake lines polished and installed on the frame. The fuel lines on the tank are polished and there's only the two lines that connect the tank to the frame to do. I hope to have the fuel tank done this week, but my brother is visiting so that's taking up most of my time. ;)


Hey Chevynut, I have some questions if you don't mind:

What process do you use to polish your lines? And do you polish your gas tank also? I assume that's a high pressure tank from Tanks Inc.?

Also, The air induction for your 56 Nomad, it looks like it started from an old hood? Am I right or was it done some other way?

I wish I had access to a metal shop. There's a lot of nice things to creat, as you have done!
My buddy has a mig which he is going to help me weld my side motor mounts in. A mig weld looks so nice! Thanks in advance!!!:):D

[chevynut]

What process do you use to polish your lines?

I first sand them by hand with 1200 grit lengthwise. Then I use a fine "unitized wheel" (like scotchbrite) on my buffer on the bends and the nuts. The bends get a little rough on the outside curve and it smooths them right down which is hard to do with sandpaper. The nuts are not really smooth and it helps smooth them down too. It doesn't take too long. Then I buff the nuts and lines with white compound and buffing wheel.


And do you polish your gas tank also? I assume that's a high pressure tank from Tanks Inc.?


Still working on polishing the tank...I built it myself out of stainless sheet TIG welded together. I also built the stainless pump unit around a Walbro 255 LPH pump.



Also, The air induction for your 56 Nomad, it looks like it started from an old hood? Am I right or was it done some other way?

I built it from scratch out of aluminum. It's aircraft epoxy bonded to the steel radiator cover.


A mig weld looks so nice!

TIG welds typically look a lot nicer than MIG, imo ;). Also, you can make a nice-looking MIG weld that is really crappy as far as strength. Here's some TIG welds I've done on steel, aluminum, and stainless. My son is a better welder than I am ;).

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5078&stc=1 http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5079&stc=1http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5080&stc=1 http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5081&stc=1

[Bluegrass Trifive]

Thanks a bunch Bluegrass trifive! Are you looking at an adapter or a hose end? Sounds like you're planning on an adapter that fits onto the rack's 45 degree metric threads. ;) They screw over the male fitting on the rack. I could never find a hose fitting of any kind that had material such that I could re-machine. Here's pics of them, I can powder coat them if you want as long as I have the color you'd like, let me know and PM me your address and I'll send a couple your way.

[chevynut]

Cool! Curious what fitting you started with.

[Bluegrass Trifive]

Cool! Curious what fitting you started with.
-4 male to 3/8 NPT male steel fitting. I haven't looked at aluminum fittings to see if they could be altered. I wanted a 90 but the way they're drilled there's no stock to machine the seat from.

[chevynut]

Gas tank has the drain and vent fittings welded in, it's polished and installed on the frame. I put a strip of thin self-adhesive neoprene foam rubber between the gas tank and frame. It's not perfectly polished (the bottom is better than the top) but it looks pretty good to me for a gas tank. ;)

I also polished an AC Delco stainless fuel filter and the rest of the fuel lines. All the polished brake and fuel lines are installed and the chassis plumbing is now done. Next I plan to polish and install the exhaust and suspension. I may take a polishing break and go back to fiberglassing for a while. ;)

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5134&stc=1

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5135&stc=1

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5137&stc=1

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5136&stc=1

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5138&stc=1

[MP&C]

Nice!

[chevynut]

I guess I must not be too tired of polishing yet. ;) Today I gathered up some spare C4 suspension parts and took the forging marks and defects out of two lower a-arms, two spindles, 4 dogbones, and part of a Dana 44 batwing. :) Still a lot of polishing to do but I think I might have found a local polishing company that I'll let do the bright stuff if the price is right. I figured I could get the rough stuff of myself pretty quickly.

I have been having a heck of a time with the Australian company that said they'd send me a trial kit for coating polished parts. It's the one Mick used for his C4 stuff. I've been looking at Glisten PC by POR-15 and it sounds like almost the identical stuff to me. I may end up going with that if I don't anodize. I read mixed reviews on it online.

[chevynut]

Got a little more polishing done on the suspension parts. There are 8 pieces to polish in front, and 11 in the rear.

I removed the forging marks from the parts with a coarse roloc, then went after it with a medium scotchbrite disc, then with a fine scotchbrite disc. I have the 4 dogbones, two lower a-arms, two spindles, and the Dana 44 batwing smoothed to that point. They look pretty good. I put one dogbone on my buffer and found it was pretty easy to get it to shine. I used brown compound on a sisal wheel. The final polish really needs to be with a cotton wheel and white compound.

Here's what a batwing looks like stock:

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5148&stc=1


This is after sanding with a roloc to remove the forging marks:

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5147&stc=1

And this is after the scotchbrite disc treatment

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5149&stc=1


When I removed the boss on the end of the batwing, this was left:

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5150&stc=1


So I welded it up and sanded it down:

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5151&stc=1


Here's a stock dogbone and one that is almost finished polishing. It really doesn't take that long to do. The batwing and some of the other parts will be more difficult.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5152&stc=1

[Custer55]

Your frame looks great. Nice job on the tank!!:cool:

[rockytopper R.I.P 5-13-2017]

You need to put a transparent floor in the rear deck so the tank can be seen when its finished lol....Nice work!!!

[DocHarley]

Holly cow! That's one sweet looking frame. I take it your car will be a trailer queen?

[chevynut]

Doc, that's not the plan. I do plan to drive it, but not a daily driver. I'll do a little cruising around to car shows here and there.

I've been working on polishing the batwing and it's a heck of a job. I think I'm going to do a combination of paint and polish instead of trying to get into all those nooks and crannies. And since the pumpkin will be painted, I think it will look good.

I have the Dana 44 differential disassembled and will be prepping the case for paint so I can paint it once it's rebuilt. I have new bearing, clutches, and seals for it, and a new set of Mopar 4.10 gears for a Viper. I'll post a few pics when I get a little further along.

This is like building with Tinkertoys. :)

[chevynut]

I've finished sanding on the batwing and have it at 2000 grit where it's going to be polished. The other places will be primed and painted. I got the differential parts all cleaned up and have all the new pieces except the side seals and bearings. Not sure I'm going to replace those bearings because they look and feel good, but the seals will be replaced.

I plan to rebuild the carrier myself with new clutches and install the ring gear on it, then I'll take it to a pro to set up the rest of it for me. I'll finish the assembly of the side yokes and batwing after painting.

I also have most of the exhaust system polished on the sisal wheel and ready for final polishing on the cotton wheel after I finish welding the muffler inlets and outlets. I have to cut and replace the last 3 foot section of the tailpipes since I changed my exhaust hangers from rubber to the CNC machined ones that clamp to the tailpipe. No big deal since I have lots of 3" stainless tubing. ;)



http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5227&stc=1

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5228&stc=1

[55 Rescue Dog]

WOW, that is attention to detail!

[Bow tie downunder]

Take a look here Bluegrass. BTW, did you ever find those rack fittings for hoses

https://www.facebook.com/Ult1mate-431101560298974/timeline/

https://vimeo.com/66486376

I've been trying to get ahold of these guys...they're in Australia but supposedly setting up dealers/applicators in the US.
Hi Chevynut
Would you be interested in contacting the guy they coated my parts
I can send his phone number
Mick

[chevynut]

Mick, I contaced a guy by the name of Gerard Short who said they had an applicator in Illinois, and he offered to send me their contact info. I asked him to do that and never got it. I asked him if I could do it myself and he said I could if I had a spray gun, which I do. I asked about pricing and he never gave that to me either. He told me he was going to send me a "trial kit" weeks ago. I've e-mailed him a couple of times after giving him my address, and he won't respond. I finally told him to forget it because I refuse to deal with a company with such shitty customer service and horrible communication. I don't need the grief.

After talking to them at SEMA I have decided to use Cerakote Clear to coat my polished parts.

https://www.clearcoating.com/

[Bow tie downunder]

I purchased Budnik wheels with clear coating called ceramicote .$100 per wheel.very nice work .
Your chassis looks great .The polished parts make it pop
Mick

[chevynut]

I've been sanding and polishing stuff for a couple of weeks now. Got the Dana 44 case prepped and ready to shoot primer, then off to get assembled. I polished my stainless mufflers and pipes but have one more joint to weld on them. I have a hard time getting a nice polish on the stainless, and it's so awkward to hold onto the buffer. If anyone is contemplating using stainless tubing bends to build a system, I recommend polishing all the pieces first, before welding them together. I got mine buffed with scotchbrite but that's as far as I went. Good thing I did that.

The aluminum is sooooooo much easier to polish. I deburred the parts to remove all the forging seams and dings, then I hit some spots with scotchbrite. I sanded with 180 to get the parts smoothed out, then 320, then 600. I find that 600 is all I need to go to get a good polish with the buffer and green compound.

Here's a couple pics of what I've buffed so far. Some of the other parts are sanded, ready for buffing. The bottom one shows the upper a-arm stock (hard to see the forging seam), sanded to 600, and polished. The pics really don't show the shine very well. ;)

Once I get everything to this polish level, I plan to hit them all again with white compound on a clean cotton buff, clean them really good, then coat everything with Cerakote clear.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5262&stc=1

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5263&stc=1

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5264&stc=1

[WagonCrazy]

Dang...that looks great Laszlo.
BLING. :cool:

[mmsalt]

Chevynut

What control arm bushings are you using?

Mike

[chevynut]

What control arm bushings are you using?

Years ago I bought a front and rear rebuild kit from P-S-T and I plan to use them. They're polygraphite.

"PST perfected polyurethane with the introduction of POLYGRAPHITE® - a special formula incorporating a low-friction graphite lubricant into the actual bushing material. With POLYGRAPHITE®, you get the near-zero deflection performance of polyurethane with a self-lubricating bushing. As an added benefit, POLYGRAPHITE® is impervious to grease, oil, weather, and other natural elements and will never dry rot. PST has the most complete line of POLYGRAPHITE® bushings available for your musclecar. Replace components as needed, or save time, money, and reap the ultimate performance benefits by installing one of our Complete POLYGRAPHITE® Kits on your vehicle today!"

http://www.p-s-t.com/

[chevynut]

I was gone on vacation for a couple of weeks but got back last weekend so I've been out in the shop most of the time since returning. My first task was to prime my differential housing, batwing, torque arm, and torque arm brackets. I got that done, at least the first coat. It's all sanded. Once I get the diff gears installed I'll spray another coat, sand all the parts, and paint them charcoal.

I've also been working on prepping some bolts, nuts, washers and other hardware for zinc plating. I used glass beads to clean everything up and I hae most of the parts ready. I'm going to do what I can in one batch, but I'm sure I'll forget something. I found a couple of platers in Denver that do barrel zinc plating cheap.

Today I decided to dive in and get my exhaust welding done. I drilled the holes for the O2 bungs in my headers and welded them in. I got some tips on stainless welding from a couple of guys and a Miller rep at SEMA and tackled welding the flanges onto my cutout turndowns and the collector extensions that they bolt to. So all I have left is to weld on new tailpipes at the rear (due to changing my hangers) along with the tips.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5355&stc=1

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5356&stc=1

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5357&stc=1

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http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5359&stc=1

[DocHarley]

Nice job!

[chevynut]

Thanks Doc! :)

I've been working on a few things simultaneously to get as much done as I can. I got the old tailpipes cut off and ready to fit the last 3 feet of pipe once I get the rest of the exhaust final polished and bolted onto the frame. Still working on getting all my parts together for zinc plating and getting them bead blasted. Between all of that I'm working on polishing the suspension pieces when I have time. I figure I'm about halfway done with that stuff since everything is deburred and rough-sanded and some parts are polished. My Cerakote Clear should arrive today so I can give it a try soon on the polished pieces.

I need to get the frame off the rotisserie and onto jackstands before I do any more assembly work on it. Plus I will need the rotisserie for the body before long....I hope. :)

I plan to take the Dana 44 differential to the shop today for the installation of my new 4.10 gears, so I decided to glass bead blast the 5 rearend u-joint yokes and spray them with the Eastwood cast iron paint I've been waiting for. I upgraded the pinion yoke to a 1350 u-joint so now all the u-joints are the same. The weak link in the Dana 44 rear is the outboard stub axles, and you can see why. They're the same part found in the Dana 36 IRS and I don't know why GM didn't upgrade them to a larger diameter at some point. I think they look pretty good cleaned up...

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5370&stc=1

[chevynut]

A little update on progress, as I AM making some nearly every day but not much to show yet.

I got the Cerakote Clear last week along with the tert Butyl Acetate that they say to clean the parts with. I have a lot to do before I can start spraying it, though. I'd like to spray all the front suspension parts at one time, then all the rear suspension parts in another batch or two.

My Dana 44 differential is in the shop and I expect to get it back in a few days with the new ring and pinion installed. Then I'll be re-priming it, my batwing, and torque arm parts to get them ready for paint. I have ordered some ARP 12-point stainless bolts and nuts for the upper balljoints and torque arm. I like the looks of those bolts, but they sure are pricey!!:eek:

I have also been gathering up more bolts and bead blasting them for zinc plating. I think I'll take a load down to Denver in a week or so. I'm trying to think of all the little fasteners and special pieces I want plated.

In the meantime I polished up the two pieces of tailpipe behind the C4 batwing. They look really good and weren't too bad to handle since I cut off the straight section at the back before polishing.

I've been sanding suspension parts whenever I get a chance and have the patience :p. The halfshafts are both smoothed and sanded to 1200 grit, ready to buff. I have one front knuckle that's almost finished sanding, and the other one and a rear knuckle smoothed with scotchbrite ready for 600, then 1200 grit. The other rear knuckle and both lower a-arms have been rough sanded to remove seams and nicks. It's a slow process but the parts sure look good when done. So far I have 4 dogbones, both upper a-arms, and both a-arm shafts finished.

I realized I'm going to have to buy another set of 4 jackstands since the body is on one set and we need another set I have for frame builds. It's always something. :geek:

[56-210Sedan]

Your frame is turning out very nicely Laszlo, your color choice is very cool.:cool:

[Bow tie downunder]

Hi Lazlo
Having done some polishing I can appreciate your pain and pleasure .Im sure Rick Roush would be envious.Looking at your batwing I see you have removed The large mounting rubber bushes ,I removed the bushes on my Dana 44 thinking I could make up the tools and replace them with new ones .I could not buy original bushes and had to fit after market bushes.

[chevynut]

Hi Mick, I bought this batwing as a spare with the bushings already removed. I have replacement Polygraphite bushings from P-S-T that I plan to use in it. It's my understanding that GM doesn't offer any replacement rubber bushings for C4 suspension parts and the parts are to be serviced with new assemblies. That seems a bit bizarre to me, but it's created an aftermarket for the replacement urethane bushings.

My Dana 44 still isn't finished, or at least they haven't called me yet. The owner told me they'd turn it around in a couple days and it's been 2 1/2 weeks now. Guess I need to call them. ;)

[chevynut]

Slowly but surely things are coming together. ;) The shop hadn't started on my Dana 44 as of last Friday when I called, but I was told they'd start it by this Friday if not sooner...we'll see. He initially told me they'd have it done in "a couple of days" when I took it in before Christmas.

I've gathered and bought all the bolts, nuts, washers, clips and everything else I can think of for zinc plating. It's all glass bead blasted and ready to take to the plater. I've also bought some more stainless ARP bolts and nuts so I have them when I need them.

I'm still trying to decide what to do with my headers, and I might take them down at the same time to a Cerakote applicator. My main hesitation is on deciding what color to coat them. Since my entire exhaust is stainless, I may just go with some chrome-look coating.

I've been working on polishing and I have some of the hardest parts finished....the front spindles/knuckles. Most of this was done by hand or with small buffs on die grinders. All I need to do is a hand final polish with Mother's aluminum polish and then clean them really well before coating with the Cerakote Clear. Next I plan to polish both lower a-arms and even though they're big, I think they may be easier to polish since I can get them on the buffing wheel. Once coated, I can assemble the front suspension on the frame.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5396&stc=1


http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5397&stc=1

[WagonCrazy]

bling, bling, bling, bling...

You're in over your head in bling man! It looks great. :cool:

[chevynut]

Paul, problem is I don't know where to stop :eek:. I think from start to finish each spindle probably took 6-8 hours of sanding and polishing. The spindles don't really show much once the wheels are on, but I just can't leave them looking crappy. It's a DISEASE!!! :)

I'll just keep plugging through the polishing and I'll finish it sooner or later. I'm going to see my upholstery guy this week to review the material list and try to get the leather ordered, so I'll have to get back to the interior stuff soon. I'm almost scared to find out how much the leather is going to cost.

Madmook is telling me my interior trim and window frames should all be back from the chrome shop this week. We're not sure about the front bumper yet.

[rockytopper R.I.P 5-13-2017]

You missed a spot lol. Those look great LAZ!!!!

[chevynut]

Rocky, I kinda have to keep telling myself this is a SUSPENSION part, and it's under the car. It's easy for me to get carried away with this stuff. It's no wonder I've been working on this dang car for so long. Thanks! :)

[chevynut]

Today I finished polishing the lower a-arms and now the entire front suspension is done. My plan now is to do a quick once-over using a new buffing wheel and white compound for the final "color" buff. The brown compound I used leaves some very fine scratches on the parts and I think the white compound will remove them, then I'll finish off with Mother's polish by hand before coating.

I dropped off a box of hardware for zinc plating last Wednesday and will be picking that up next week. I put a lot of time into cleaning the parts, but it's only $85 to zinc plate everything. I think there was over 20 pounds of bolts, nuts, washers, and other parts. I could have actually done more for the same price since it's a minimum charge.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5433&stc=1

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5434&stc=1

[55 Rescue Dog]

That is FN awesome!!! I don't have any aluminum on my Camaro that nice, but sure would love too. The only problem is, I have missed many opportunities to drive, or show my car, just because I saw a few dark clouds are in the sky. But, it is worth it too have nice stuff, and simply keep it dry. Have had many vehicles I have enjoyed driving a lot in good weather for years without a drop of water. Easier, and I don't have to freak out about cleaning it all over. Just have to park it a little more, and look at it instead.

[chevynut]

Yeah RD, I do plan to drive this car some, mostly locally, and it probably will not have not a lot of freeway use. I don't want to trailer it everywhere, but I don't want to drive it in the rain on purpose either. My Porsche gets driven about 2000 miles a year only in the summer and it only has 34K miles on it. The only reason I have to wash it is it gets dusty in the garage (I need to get a cover) and the few times I got caught in rain.

One thing I DO NOT want to do is re-polish aluminum, that's why I'm using the Cerakote Clear after polishing it. Hopefully it lasts for years.

[chevynut]

Well things are still moving along. I got a call earlier this week that my zinc plating is done and I'll be picking the parts up next week. That will allow me to assemble all of the suspension parts and bolt them to the frame when ready. I hope they didn't lose anything:confused:.

I hadn't heard anything about my Dana 44 differential (dropped it off before Christmas) so I stopped by today to see if anyone is still working there ;). Randy had it finished and ready to pick up, but hadn't called me yet. So it's ready for installation of the side bearings, seals and yokes which I'll do myself. Then I have to do the final priming and paint on the case and batwing, and assemble them together. I need the zinc-plated bolts for that too.

I decided to wait a while on coating my headers since I have so much else going on. They can wait because I don't need them until the engine is ready to drop in the chassis. I still need to finish up the rest of the exhaust and get it on the chassis

[chevynut]

I picked up my zinc-plated parts yesterday and I'm pretty happy with them. The only thing I'm thinking is that I should have thrown more parts in the box, since I paid a flat minimum rate for plating. I just got kinda tired of bead blasting stuff. And as far as I can tell they didn't lose one part! :)

Some of these bolts were black oxide and some were yellow zinc. I wanted everything clear zinc so I stripped some of the new bolts. The main reason I did this was to clean up the stock C4 bolts which are metric and would be expensive to replace, if they could be found in the right size. There's also some special hardware and custom parts I made.

Here's a before and after pic of some of the bolts, and a couple pics of the rest of the parts:

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5483&stc=1

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5484&stc=1

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5485&stc=1

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5486&stc=1

[chevynut]

I finally did it :). This is my first attempt at spraying urethane base/clear. I was going to paint my frame but decided to have a pro do it. I've done some painting in the past using lacquer and a lot of priming where the finish didn't really matter.

A few weeks ago I sprayed my Dana 44 differential housing with a coat of primer before I had the ring and pinion set up. I also sprayed my torque arm and brackets, and the C4 batwing in areas I wanted it painted with the polished areas masked. The past couple of days I sanded and re-primed everything, then unmasked the batwing, sanded the primer edges, and re-masked it. I shot the base this afternoon and the clear tonight. When it cures, I'll unmask the batwing, polish the bare aluminum, and spray it with Cerakote. Then I'll assemble it to the differential housing.

Here's a couple of quick pics showing the color. What look like defects are actually reflections. This charcoal gray (a GM color) should contrast well with my orange frame. ;)

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5487&stc=1

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5488&stc=1

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5489&stc=1

[WagonCrazy]

you're getting me excited to watch you get so excited! Finally to the painting stage in your build. You're getting close to done man...good work.

[chevynut]

Thanks Paul, yes it is exciting to see colors. But I've spent so much time polishing, cleaning, plating, and painting parts that I'm really wanting to get some more chassis assembly done. I should be able to get the final polishing on the front suspension done in the next week and the Cerakote applied to the polished aluminum.

I went to Denver earlier this week and talked to Applied Plastics, a powdercoater and Cerakote applicator. I really wanted to talk about my headers but I didn't know they did Cerakote clearcoating too. He advised me not to try it myself. I already bought a quart of the clear, the cleaner, a detail gun, and have studied the instructions. He estimated around $500 to spray my parts (plus at least two trips down there) so I think I'll give it a shot myself. ;)

My frame is still on the rotisserie but I bought some more jackstands and I plan to put it on the stands soon so I can continue the assembly. I'm close to ready to bolt on my exhaust, the differential, torque arm, and front suspension. That will be a nice step forward. :)

[Custer55]

Looking good!! :cool: $85. to have all your hardware plated is a great deal. Sure makes it all look new again.
What is the paint code on the charcoal grey? That will look nice with the polished aluminum.
Brian

[chevynut]

Yes Custer, $85 is a minimum charge for zinc plating at Denver Metal Finishing. I don't know how much you can do for that but they have 70 gallon barrels they use so that's a lot of stuff they can plate at once. Barrel plating doesn't require wiring up each part. I'm sure glad I found them as I was going to try to plate parts myself rather than ship them somewhere.

One more thing I'll add is that you can get zinc in clear (silver), yellow, or black.

The charcoal is called GM Evoke Gray. It was a rare paint code from what I can tell... WA354N used from 2008-2010 on some Pontiacs. I picked it to match my interior leather color. I got a "variant" of it which is coarser and a little darker than the normal one. What I like about it is that it doesn't have the blue sparkles that a lot of charcoals have in sunlight, like the charcoal paint on my Chevy truck does.

[chevynut]

Here's a couple pics of the batwing unmasked. I thought this would look better with the painted D44 case than all polished, and I got tired of polishing it. ;)

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5511&stc=1

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5512&stc=1

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5513&stc=1

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5514&stc=1

[Algoma56]

I like the zinc plated bolts. Like you mentioned, it's hard to find specific bolts, especially for suspension, so a nice way to keep the detail going.
I've painted aluminum before(mostly rims) and it works and looks great.

[chevynut]

I got the Dana 44 fully assembled today. Installed the side yoke bearings and seals, then the side yokes. Those damn snap rings are sure a pain in the butt. :eek: I even polished the fill plug. That newly plated hardware looks pretty good imo. It's now ready for the installation of the batwing. :)

I decided to make some covers for my Derale cooling fan motors. I don't know if I'll need to space them away from the motors or not, but they will look better in any case. I sent Derale an e-mail long ago asking them about cooling the motors and they never replied.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5596&stc=1

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5597&stc=1

[chevynut]

Just finished spraying Cerakote on some of my parts. I buffed them one more time with white compound and polished them with Mother's polish. Then I cleaned everything with PPG Oil and Wax remover, followed by tert-Butyl Acetate as recommended by Cerakote. I messed around with both my Sharpe 1.3mm gun and my new HF 0.8mm detail gun and both seem to spray the same when set up right. I went ahead and used the HF detail gun. The spraying went well but it's hard to tell where you've sprayed and where you haven't, since it's so clear and flows out nice. So you have to really keep track of where you start and where you end. Also, I found out you don't want to put on a second coat after allowing the first to flash. That causes orange-peel. I hope I can do something with that on a couple of parts, without somehow stripping them down again.

I think this material is a moisture-curing urethane. It is tack-free in 40 minutes, dry in 24 hours, and full cure in 5 days. It's supposed to be hard as nails in 5 days. I have to realize this is a coating, and won't look like the newly polished aluminum that was a mirror finish. It looks better than any paint, powdercoat, or clear anodizing, imo.

[chevynut]

Well things are finally starting to come together ;). After doing a half dozen things at once and having parts laying all over the place, today I attached the batwing to the Dana 44 case with the newly plated original bolts. I used black Permatex silicone gasket maker and torqued the bolts down as recommended. On the Dana 44 batwing there are bosses that push against the carrier caps to help support them so it's an integral part of the differential. The torque sequence that was specified was a little strange and they left two bolts out so I just torqued them too. When that was done, I installed the new Polygraphite bushings.


http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5627&stc=1

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5628&stc=1

Then I installed the differential assembly into the frame and slid the batwing bolts in place. It fit like it was supposed to. :)

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5630&stc=1.


I got the torque arm ready by installing the polished stainless rod ends with anti-sieze.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5629&stc=1

Next I attached the torque arm bracket to the differential. It's amazing how a little paint makes things not fit like they did before. With a little work I attached it with some original C4 zinc plated bolts and nuts....with the bolt heads down. ;)


http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5631&stc=1

After setting the pinion angle I adjusted the torque arm to fit. Connections are made with 1/2-20 12-point ARP stainless bolts and nuts. And you'll notice the rod ends are in double shear. :D

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5632&stc=1

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5633&stc=1

[Custer55]

Looking good!!! :cool: I like the bat wing with the painted center and polished outer edge. It gives it a nice contrast.
Brian

[chevynut]

Still plugging away :). Today I got some of the exhaust final polished with white compound on a cotton wheel and it sure looks better. I sanded and polished the Deeds exhaust hangers and final polished the rest of the front suspension parts (upper a-arm washers, spindles and lower a-arms) with white compound. A little rubbing with Mothers polish, cleaning and they'll be ready for Cerakote. Also got the new Polygraphite bushings pressed into the dogbones. No new pics but maybe soon ;).

My front bumper is done and is supposed to be back from Madmooks any day now. :D

[chevynut]

Some more progress. Got the mufflers welded and the main exhaust pieces final polished. I'm so sick of polishing stainless steel. :( Also got the dogbone bushings in and they're ready to bolt onto the frame when I get the knuckles ready. Front suspension is next...I think. :)

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5666&stc=1

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5667&stc=1

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5668&stc=1

[chevynut]

I had my halfshafts shortened several years ago when I started this project and I have sanded them and even polished one. Yesterday I noticed that one is 1/8" longer than the other. They're 18.125" c-c stock and one is right on 16.625" and the other is 16.75"....they were BOTH supposed to be 16.625". It seems Like I knew one was a little longer but it's been a long time and I forgot how much. :(

So now I have to decide what to do. Leave them as-is and deal with the difference in the strut rods, have another one cut down to 16.625", have two more cut down so I have a spare ;), or buy brand new ones from Denny's at $350 each. Cutting them down is $125 each and Denny's tells me they wouldn't use the stock ones anyhow...of course they would say that, they want to sell new ones. But they're nice. :)

[rockytopper R.I.P 5-13-2017]

Thats some serious eye candy Laz!!! To nice to put an ugly body on lol. That ought boost sells....

[chevynut]

Thanks Rocky....here's a pic that shows the actual color a little better with a flash. This stuff really pops in the sunlight. Can't wait to get some of the shiny suspension on it. I still don't have a trailer. :) :)


http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5678&stc=1

[rockytopper R.I.P 5-13-2017]

Picture no work here.

[chevynut]

Picture no work here.

I reloaded it from my computer. I can see it, can you see it now? I don't know what's going on with some pics that don't show up. The one I put in post #61 isn't there.

[rockytopper R.I.P 5-13-2017]

Yes looks awesome!!!!

[DocHarley]

WOW!!!!! :eek:

I know you said its a driver but you might want to re-think that statement. Looks like a trailer queen frame to me. Perfect!

[chevynut]

LOL! Thanks Doc. It's not a "driver" per my definition of a driver. To me a driver is a lower-end restoration that's driven regularly. It's as nice of a car as I can make it but I do plan to drive it now and then to shows and other local events. I don't know if that meets the definition of a "driver". To me a "trailer queen" is a car that gets shown only and pushed on and off of a trailer, and never driven. I will probably show it some at Goodguys and maybe a local show or two...maybe even the Power Tour some day. I don't plan to haul it around the country to shows.

[Fladiver64]

I think you should install the drive train and suspension, then a seat on, and have the best looking c4 go kart.lol. Looks great, almost too nice to a body on.

[chevynut]

A little more progress the past few days. I got the upper balljoints installed in the a-arms and the a-arms and shafts re-assembled with new polygraphite bushings and polyurethane balljoint boots. It's a real PITA getting those front bushings in the a-arms. The rear ones are split but the front ones have two flanges and have to be pressed through the a-arms. Once the bushing is in, you can't get it back out without cutting it apart. The lower a-arms are all polished and ready for cleaning and application of Cerakote. The lower bushings should be easy but I'm not sure about pressing in the lower balljoints since I've never done it before ;).

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5713&stc=1

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5714&stc=1

[MadMooks]

That looks awesome man. Looking forward to the final product . It's gonna be ridiculously nice

[MP&C]

Beautiful!

[DocHarley]

I now hate "my" frame. :cry:

[55wagoncrazy]

I agree with Mike and Robert! But....but.....but C'mon man....what's up with those ball joints. Can't ya do something better with them, they just are too.......well STOCK RAW METAL LOOKING. :)

Mikey

[chevynut]

C'mon man....what's up with those ball joints. Can't ya do something better with them, they just are too.......well STOCK RAW METAL LOOKING. :)

Mikey

They-re painted with Eastwood's cast iron enamel. I thought it looked better than the black oxide. Didn't know what else to do with them.....they match the yokes on the Dana 44. :) :)

[55wagoncrazy]

I figured they were painted with some natural looking paint. But they still look odd compared to all the rest of the "polished and shinnnny" parts. Maybe you should have looked into having them done in zinc. It would do no harm to them, and would make them "blend in" with the other type parts that you had zinc coated.

Mikey

[chevynut]

But they still look odd compared to all the rest of the "polished and shinnnny" parts. Maybe you should have looked into having them done in zinc. It would do no harm to them, and would make them "blend in" with the other type parts that you had zinc coated. Mikey

Yeah maybe I should have done that :). Not sure what to do now....I don't think plated balljoints are available.

[55wagoncrazy]

Get some of that "chrome" paint.......LLLLLLOOOOOLLLLL:D

[chevynut]

Got a new pair of Timken hubs from Rock Auto and painted the raw steel castings with the Eastwood cast iron paint to prevent rusting. Still have to finish the lower a-arms when I find time.

I bought a rebuilt Z51 2-turn lock-to-lock rack a few years ago and never opened the box til now. It was all painted Chevy orange so I stripped the paint today. I'm working on clocking the fittings to clear my engine, then I'll probably paint the cylinder charcoal and polish the aluminum housing.


http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5732&stc=1

[Rick_L]

Maybe the charcoal color would look better on the ball joint cover too.

Thing is, it's not going to be all that noticeable unless you have a show display with the wheel/tire removed.

[Bow tie downunder]

Beautiful work ,you're going to have to wear sun glasses to put it together
mick

[chevynut]

Test-fitted the front bumper (chrome by Madmooks) today.....:)

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5749&stc=1

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5750&stc=1

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5751&stc=1

[chevynut]

I'm going to need to install my coilovers soon so now I have to figure out what to do with them. Years ago when I started this project and thought I'd be finished in 3 years :( I bought a set of four Aldan Eagle coilovers. Today they're known as Aldan American. The shocks have only been used for setup but it appears that at least a couple of them have lost their nitrogen charge. It's not surprising after so many years. A couple of the shocks actually go to full extension without the spring, due to the gas charge, but a couple don't do that. So now I may have to send them back to Aldan for rebuild, which is $99 each. I guess I should call Aldan and see what they recommend and maybe it's a simple gas charge since I don't really see a need for a total rebuild. This is a good reason to NOT buy your parts too early in the build :cry:.

Also, I talked to QA-1 at SEMA last year about becoming a dealer (not sure it makes sense) and asked about what they recommended, bearings or bushings in the shock ends. The rep told me that due to the articulation of the suspension, especially in the rear, they recommend bearings. The front has a slight angular offset with suspension travel, but the rear is more dramatic. Stock Corvette shocks use a stud on the top mount in front, but coilovers with a stud are not commonly available.

I need to revisit my spring rates, especially in the rear. I think my 600 lb/in springs in the front are about right with my BBC but imo it's better to go lighter if possible and adjust the ride height up with the adjuster nut. That gives a better ride quality, and allows the adjustable damping of the shocks to work better.

[chevynut]

Along with doing tile work in the house, finishing up a C4 frame and starting another one, and ordering laser cut parts I have actually found a little time to work on my Nomad.

I got the rebuilt rack cylinder rotated and the aluminum casting polished. Today I primed it along several other parts I prepped. I plan to do a little painting soon, and hopefully get the rack back together and on the chassis.

I also cut and polished some new tailpipes and made some exhaust tips by cutting a stainless mandrel-bent 90 in two. I had thought about bringing the tips out through the bumper, but have decided not to do that. It looks cleaner with the turndowns, and I don't want to risk messing up my smoothie bumper that I put so many hours into. The tips should be just below the bottom of the bumper and the 3" tailpipes are halfway up into the frame so they don't hang below it....I hate that :eek:.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5784&stc=1

As if my shop isn't already in enough chaos with all the parts laying around, today I tore into the Ramjet 502. It's a brand new crate engine, but my main objective is to clean it up inside and outside, have it honed with a torque plate (as recommended by Total Seal), replace the low-tension oil rings with standard ones (not sure what kind yet), paint it, and re-assemble it with new gaskets. I haven't decided if I'm going to change the cam yet to get a little more "umph", but I will change the rockers to COMP roller tip pieces.

I am a little shocked by all the crap I found in the engine, and I'm glad I'm cleaning it up. It's been sitting for several year in my dirty shop where we grind and sand stuff. I found bits of metal here and there and don't know where they came from. The nuts holding the windage tray are self-locking steel locknuts and there are shards of metal coming off of them. I can't believe GM does this and I'm not sure what to do about it. I may install drilled nuts and safety wire them instead if I can find nuts with the right threads.

Here's the engine with the intake and roller lifter retainer removed.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5785&stc=1

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5786&stc=1

Here's a pic with the driver-side head off...the head gaskets are FelPro and say "Performance Marine" on them. I'm not sure these are the original GM gaskets that were used on the ZZ502 and Ramjet 502. I believe the prior owner bought this engine as a GMPP Deluxe engine kit that included heads but were not installed.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5787&stc=1

Here's one of the heads. No more room for valves in there! 2.25" intakes and 1.88 exhausts.


http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5788&stc=1

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5789&stc=1

Here's the bottomside showing the oil pump and windage tray. Look at the burrs on that nut!


http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5790&stc=1

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5791&stc=1

I haven't done anything with the timing chain, cam, and bottom end yet and I need to decide on what and who is going to hone it, assemble it, and what kind of rings to use. I may use Total Seal's gapless rings since they seem like a great idea on a big engine like this. :)

[Troy]

Here's the bottomside showing the oil pump and windage tray. Look at the burrs on that nut!


http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5791&stc=1



Is that metal or some sort of locking material?

[chevynut]

Troy, I think it's zinc or cad plating coming off. I found metal and other debris in other places in the engine, but it could have gotten in there while I had it in the frame....that's partly why I'm taking it down. I tried to cover the exhaust openings with tape and the intake was never bolted on completely so crap got into it. Plus it's been sitting for so many years. I never imagined it sitting for so long. :(

As for seals, which ones would you replace? I have a new oilpan gasket and the valve cover gaskets look good. I will replace head gaskets with an original pair from GMPP. Not sure if I should replace the 1-piece rear main seal or the timing cover and crank seal, but leaning toward doing so.

[Troy]

I think I'd replace them all, cheap insurance, pain to pull it apart after it's installed.

[chevynut]

Yeah, you're probably right. I just called a local shop and they told me it would be $130 for the torque plate honing. But then he mentioned I'd have to have new cam bearings and all the plugs would have to be removed for cleaning....I forgot about that. Still, it's only $260 to take the bare block and get it back to me honed, cleaned, and with new cam bearings and plugs installed. I can live with that ;). I'll probably go with Total Seal moly rings and get all new seals. Nice project for a change of pace. ;)

[chevynut]

Here's an interesting thing. I was shopping for new GM head gaskets and found out that the 502 crate engines use GM part #12363411. Here's what the gaskets I took out look like:

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5794&stc=1

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5792&stc=1

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5793&stc=1

So I looked up the Fel-Pro 17048 gasket on Summit's website and here's what it looks like....same as mine:

http://static.summitracing.com/global/images/prod/xlarge/FEL-17048_xl.jpg?rep=False

Them I looked up the GM 123653411 gasket on Summit's website......


http://static.summitracing.com/global/images/prod/xlarge/nal-12363411_xl.jpg?rep=False


To me they're the same damn thing and have the EXACT same specs. BUT, the GM gaskets are $79.97 each and the Same gasket with the Fel-Pro part number is $44.97 each! Glad I shopped around! :)

[chevynut]

Well I now have a bare block. ;) Got the rods and pistons out today but had a helluva time getting the damper off. I carefully pulled the cam and crank. Chevy sure did a better job with gaskets on these engines than they did on the Gen IV big blocks. I'm not even sure I need to replace them, but it's pretty cheap so I'm going with new ones. I didn't even know there was an o-ring under the rear main cap...did the Gen IV engines have that? I did do some light de-burring on the center slots in the lifter valley because they were really rough and I was afraid a chip could come off at some point. :eek:

Anyhow, everything looks really good and I'll be taking the block to the shop in the next week for honing. I happen to have a brand new set of take-out 502 pistons that I'll take over in case one of them gives better tolerances :). But hopefully they won't need them.

I think I'll start another thread on the re-assembly and painting of the engine.

I'm waiting on some more primer so I can finish painting my steering rack and a bunch of other parts. I'm having a hard time figuring out how to hang the light sheetmetal parts for painting. They want to spin and move around when I spray. :mad:

[Rick_L]

Robert has posted a couple of ways to hang small parts for painting. One thing that helps is to hang a weight from the bottom to stabilize the part. Or you can tie them together at the bottom if they are all the same length.

Also 55wagoncrazy has posted ways of holding really small parts like bolts. See his build thread for the 57 convertible at the other site.

[chevynut]

I've been polishing my radiator and condenser and finally got them to where they're good enough for me. I also painted the motor covers I made but I'm wondering if they should be orange instead of charcoal. They don't really show, but there will be sheetmetal surrounding the fans that will be orange. The engine block will be charcoal.

Here's the front of the support with Derale dual 12" 4000 CFM fans installed:

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5859&stc=1

Here's the backside with the new fan motor covers installed:

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5860&stc=1

Polished radiator and condenser installed in support:

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5861&stc=1

Backside with radiator installed:

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5862&stc=1

This pic shows all the sheetmetal covers as viewed from the engine side. The fan motors are ugly so I had to do something with them.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5863&stc=1

[55 Rescue Dog]

That looks great! But I just have to ask, how much does all of that weigh?

[chevynut]

That looks great! But I just have to ask, how much does all of that weigh?

What do you mean "all of that"? The crossflow aluminum radiator and condenser probably weigh about the same as the stock copper radiator and is a common upgrade to get decent cooling. My radiator is custom built to my design by PRC and it's shorter in height and wider than their "standard" Tri5 offering, and I designed it to fit the Derale fan shroud to utilize the entire core area. The core support might be a little heavier than a stock one since it's 1"x2" 11 gauge steel tubing. The inner fenders are 20 gauge so probably similar in weight to stock inner fenders. The electric fans are pretty much required to get good cooling and they're a bit heavier than a clutch fan but I don't know how much...they're similar to the SPAL fans most guys use and it's just part of building a car like this. The fan and core support covers are all 20 gauge and they're only a couple pounds total. I've never weighed the whole assembly.

If you can tell me what a stock radiator, core support, fillers, fan and inner fenders weigh I'll weigh mine and we can compare. ;). Thing is, a stock radiator and fan setup would never cool my engine adequately and that applies to almost any modern engine with A/C.

[NickP]

For me, the extra (if any at all) weight is nothing to be concerned about. The design intent of the finished car is to cruise and enjoy, not to race. If it was a race only application, the AC along with all of the other creature comforts built into the car certainly wouldn't be there.

JMHO and 3₵

[55 Rescue Dog]

A modified stock suspension would cruise great. But, any extra weight on the nose of the car kinda defeats the purpose of using a lightweight C4 suspension for crisp handling.
You don't have to race, or break any traffic laws to get the most out of driving any car hard, within reason. Anything you can do, to make any car lighter, will always make it better. The more you can use simple aluminum, instead of steel is obvious.
I would love to hear all about, what anyone knows about "Polar Moment of Inertia"?

[chevynut]

A modified stock suspension would cruise great. But, any extra weight on the nose of the car kinda defeats the purpose of using a lightweight C4 suspension for crisp handling.
You don't have to race, or break any traffic laws to get the most out of driving any car hard, within reason. Anything you can do, to make any car lighter, will always make it better. The more you can use simple aluminum, instead of steel is obvious.

Tell us how it takes the joy out of driving a car that's doesn't have all lightweight aluminum panels, etc. It doesn't defeat the purpose of a lightweight C4 suspension to add some nice features even if it adds some weight. You still have the great suspension geometry, low unsprung weight, and excellent steering....not to mention great looks.

Nick has it right. Very few guys build cars to race. If we did, we'd be cutting all the extra weight and optimizing everything. I wouldn't have power seats, console, power windows, power door locks, cruise control, A/C, stereo, or a lot of the other features my car has. Most guys try to build cars that drive and perform well, have nice features, and look appealing to people who like nice cars. Why don't you explain to us why most car builders use steel for all their panels, fenderwells, consoles, etc. instead of aluminum?

If you want to build a car to race, then do so and build it the way you want to. If you want a modified stock suspension on your car, then DO IT. If you want a C4 suspension, then DO IT. If you want to strip down your car to make it as light as possible, then DO IT.

This car is being built THE WAY I WANT IT BUILT. This thread is about my Nomad assembly. Start your own thread if you have something off-topic like Polar Moment of Inertia you want to talk about.

[chevynut]

Let me humor Mr. Critic a bit. ;) I just went out and weighed a bunch of parts.

My entire radiator support, fans, radiator, and condenser weigh 54 pounds. The front and rear support cover panels (7 pieces)weigh a total of 3 pounds.

My inner fender weighs 11 pounds, including both pieces for a total of 22 pounds for both sides.

My radiator cover and air intake weighs 12 pounds.

A stock radiator weighs 27 pounds.

A stock radiator support and side covers weighs 18 pounds.

A stock inner fender weighs 13 pounds.

I didn't weigh a suitable clutch fan because I don't have one.

So, adding all this up my front end assembly shown above that RD is so concerned about weighs a total of 79 pounds without the radiator cover and 91 pounds with the radiator cover (not shown).

A stock radiator, support, and inner fender assembly weighs a total of 71 pounds. Now add a clutch fan that's around 10 pounds and you have 81 pounds. Not much different than mine....actually heavier without my radiator cover.

Now subtract the 66 pounds of front end weight loss due to the C4 suspension, and my setup is actually LIGHTER than stock!

Now let's hear RD bring up all the BS about the weight of BBCs, A/C compressors, big disc brakes, big tires, and all his other nonsense. RD, if you want to discuss Polar Moment of Inertia, car weights, or whatever else that's off-topic from this thread, then START YOUR OWN DAMNED THREAD!

[chevynut]

I cleaned up this thread and moved recent irrelevant posts and personal attacks. Sorry, but I'm not going to let you guys screw up yet another thread. If you have something constructive to say or suggestions, that's fine. If you want to post off-topic, start your own thread.

[Rick_L]

The new Otis. This is incredible.

[chevynut]

You just don't get it do you? You can't leave it alone. You're the one who's incredible. I don't appreciate your personal attacks and won't let you continue to do this. If you have something constructive to say about the topic of this thread, then say it. If you don't then don't say anything. You come here and screw up my thread with personal attacks, and expect me to let it go. Well go screw yourself Rick. Your jealousy is incredible.

[chevynut]

Today I made a run back down to Denver to pick up my shortened halfshafts. Bill's Englewood Driveshafts cut them down and re-welded them. They look to be exactly the same length this time and the welds look better than the first ones I had cut and he said they balanced perfectly. Now I have to polish them, coat them with Cerakote, and install the new solid Spicer 1350 u-joints.

[NickP]

I guess I missed it, was there an issue with the other ones you had done? Are you finding the Cerakote to be easy to work with? I have a few projects to do that will require the coating. What ya charge to do some coating, LOL.

[chevynut]

Nick, the half-shafts I had cut several years ago were 1/8" different in length (see post #69). I knew they weren't perfect because the camber adjustment was way different side-to-side and when I checked them after disassembly they were way off, so I decided to make a new pair. They cost me $70 each back then and this time it was $125 each. They're exactly the same length to the eyeball, but I haven't measured them yet. I took 1.5" out of each one. The welds look better this time too.

The Cerakote is actually pretty easy to spray. Cleaning of the metal with their cleaner is critical for proper adhesion on polished metal. You can use Cerakote on any material. Just put it in the gun and shoot...no mixing and cleanup is easy. The thing you have to watch out for when spraying is to get the right amount on, not too little that it orange-peels and not too much that it runs...just like any paint. Since everything is shiny it's hard to see where you've already sprayed it so you really have to have a pattern and pay attention. I've found that spraying two coats isn't a good idea, as it seems to want to orange-peel on the second coat for some reason. It's supposed to go on real thin, that's why they call it "micro-clear". A shop in Denver estimated $500 to spray all my suspension parts which isn't bad considering the material is $100 a quart. I had already bought the Cerakote and didn't want to have to polish everything and haul/ship it to Denver and back so I did it myself.

[55 Rescue Dog]

I've been looking, but I can't seem to find any info on what improvements there are, with the C4 rear suspension geometry, when the track is narrowed by 3 inches? BTW, I wasn't the one that mentioned, each half shaft was shortened 1.5 inches.

[NickP]

I've been looking, but I can't seem to find any info on what improvements there are, with the C4 rear suspension geometry, when the track is narrowed by 3 inches? BTW, I wasn't the one that mentioned, each half shaft was shortened 1.5 inches.

I don't know that any gains other than tire fitment were expected RD. I don't know how long you have been on this train, but the ride started a long time back in a far far away place.

[chevynut]

I've been looking, but I can't seem to find any info on what improvements there are, with the C4 rear suspension geometry, when the track is narrowed by 3 inches? BTW, I wasn't the one that mentioned, each half shaft was shortened 1.5 inches.

My goal wasn't to make any improvements in the C4 rear suspension geometry.

[chevynut]

I'm getting close to wrapping up my engine assembly so I've been prepping my bellhousing for installation. I have a Lakewood bellhousing and a billet steel adapter with a T5 bearing retainer on it. The adapter and T56 are from now-defunct Keisler Engineering.

I have the bellhousing blasted, primed, and ready for paint. But before I do that I need to align it to make sure it's within the Tremec tolerance of .006" TIR.

The adapter bolts to the bellhousing with countersunk screws so it can't really move around much. The T56 is doweled to the adapter.

Do I really have to do this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-mb4ezHj1BU

[Rick_L]

I don't know how good the Tremec pieces are, but a Lakewood housing is ALWAYS suspect! They are the worst offender, OEM or aftermarket. Camshaft dowel pins are excellent in comparison.

[rockytopper R.I.P 5-13-2017]

I'm getting close to wrapping up my engine assembly so I've been prepping my bellhousing for installation. I have a Lakewood bellhousing and a billet steel adapter with a T5 bearing retainer on it. The adapter and T56 are from now-defunct Keisler Engineering.

I have the bellhousing blasted, primed, and ready for paint. But before I do that I need to align it to make sure it's within the Tremec tolerance of .006" TIR.

The adapter bolts to the bellhousing with countersunk screws so it can't really move around much. The T56 is doweled to the adapter.

Do I really have to do this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-mb4ezHj1BU

No you don't it's not to late. Ditch the outdated boat anchor engine and stick a ls power plant in it to begin with lol. I'm thanking LSX 454 with Holley high ram to get the look you like... If your building it to show you gonna loose points your years behind the curve. If your building it to go your gonna get your azz handed to you lol. Just sayin you are building an amazing car don't short your self after all these years and effort..

[chevynut]

So what the hell are you guys saying? :confused: Did you see the video? Do I have to take the transmission apart to center the bellhousing like they did? That seems absurd to me, but I don't know how accurately Keisler machined the adapter. When I was first building this car McLeod was working on a modular bellhousing that they kept delaying, and Quick Time didn't exist so my only choice was a stock bellhousing or a Lakewood, both requiring adapters. T56 conversions were pretty new at the time.

I'm not going backwards now. I just need to figure out how to center this tranny. I may be able to bolt the adapter onto the bellhousing and center the whole works, or check the bellhousing first to see how close I am then do it with the adapter on. The T5 bearing retainer is really just there to provide a slide for the throwout bearing.

And no, I'm not changing engines either ;). An LSx 454 needs 11:1 compression and a crazy radical cam to make near the torque that a 502 makes. It also has an iron block so the weight savings go away. As for show, I don't care about points because this isn't really a "show car" in the strict sense of the words. I will show it but I still see some of the top cars around with Ramjet intakes on BBCs. Even Kindig-it still builds them. They're in a league of their own, imo, because everyone nowadays has an LS engine of some sort, so they're not that impressive under the hood unless they're supercharged, imo. Lots of guys still use SBCs that were outdated decades ago. Hell, some guys still run carburetors! :) :)

[Rick_L]

If it was mine I'd do the whole deal. After all, the transmission is still very accessible.

But if you only check the bellhousing itself, which is far easier, that will deal with what is likely the biggest risk.

It's kind of like getting anal over the valve timing on 1 cylinder, versus knowing what they all do.

And I wouldn't trust Keisler to do anything right. They had a proven track record of not doing much right.

[chevynut]

So you're saying I should disassemble the transmission to check if the bellhousing is aligned? This video is the first I've ever seen anyone do that to check bellhousing alignment.

It seems reasonable to check to make sure the adapter is centered along with the bellhousing, if I can get an indicator in there somehow. Taking the transmission apart seems pretty crazy and I doubt many guys do it to install a Tremec, or at least a T56. Maybe the TKO indexes correctly into a standard bellhousing. I just don't see how else you can be sure it's right, with ANY bellhousing and a T56 without doing it that way.

[chevynut]

Looks like it's the only way to do it right with a T56. I'll bet most guys don't bother....

http://www.pro-touring.com/archive/index.php/t-103170.html

[NickP]

Looks like it's the only way to do it right with a T56. I'll bet most guys don't bother....

http://www.pro-touring.com/archive/index.php/t-103170.html

I'd have an issue with using that type of dial indicator and especially the inspection method shown. An accurate reading from any inspection equipment is entirely based upon the proper setup and proper gauge.

[Rick_L]

Nick, I assume you're referring to the youtube link. Please elaborate on your concerns and tell us how you would do it.

[chevynut]

I looked at the TKO and it does have bearing retainer on the front of it that is probably accurately indexed to the input shaft. So all you need to do with them is center the bellhousing opening.

Now I'm reading stuff on checking parallelism of the bellhousing faces and adding shims to correct it...to .002". This shit never ends. :) :eek::(

[NickP]

A dial indicator is meant to be used straight on rather than with an obvious side load as shown, which can and will introduce inaccurate readings. There are, for starters much smaller instruments and those that will yield even closer readings but then you know that, don't you sir. Granted, I doubt the author wanted to go out and purchase the right tool for the job but that, in of itself is where errors come to pass.

[chevynut]

A dial indicator is meant to be used straight on rather than with an obvious side load as shown, which can and will introduce inaccurate readings.

IMO the readings are relative to each other to center the bellhousing so accuracy to .001" isn't that critical. Secondly, a small angle doesn't introduce that much error. For example, an angle of 30 degrees (pretty big) only changes the actual reading by 13%. So if you're reading .010" that's only .0013" error, well within the range of required tolerance of .006" for bellhousing alignment. And since all the other readings are also affected by that much, the overall error isn't going to be large. A guy could compensate for that 13% when he ordered dowels, but that's being anal. :) :) :)

I have never seen an indicator small enough to fit inside the front bearing hole of a T56, have you? One of the indicators with a swinging arm might work well though, but I'm not buying one just for that purpose.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/f7/c3/fd/f7c3fd10d24fce9e9ce8cad11d7bc6ed.jpg

[NickP]

but that's being anal. :) :) :) Anal! Oh! That's rich............................. I guess it's just a matter of experience/preference for me. After having been in QA for so many years, it just grates on me a bit or, if you want for the lack of a better term, then it's being anal. LOL

[Rick_L]

The dowels come in pretty coarse increments unless you are going to make your own.

I don't see a big problem.

Nick, you're a bit testy here, no need for that - I just wanted to see if I was missing something. No criticism or challenge intended.

[Rick_L]

Cnut, they called it parallelism in the post I think, but what's really wanted is a check of perpendicularity to the crankshaft. And it's probably a valid concern. Parallelism of the bellhousing is one component, and the perpendicularity of the bellhousing mounting surface to the crank is another.

Hopefully both are controlled to a reasonable level, but it should be checked.

[55 Rescue Dog]

Where I came from, this was the art of the "tool makers". They were amazing at lining stuff up in microns!

[chevynut]

Where I came from, this was the art of the "tool makers". They were amazing at lining stuff up in microns!

And that's a major flaw with some of those tooling guys. I used to design some production tooling for HP. There were times I just needed a simple piece cut and drilled and one or more dimensions didn't matter. I told them that...but they insisted that I put a tolerance on it before they'd cut the part. So I gave them a spec that probably confounded them....+/- 1/8". They sometimes get so obsessed with accuracy that they don't understand practical applications and limitations.

You don't need most things to be all accurate to microns, or even ten thousandths of an inch. If the spec is .006" TIR that's as accurate as you really need to be. Any better is mostly a waste of time from a practical standpoint imo.

I'll check the parallelism first once I get the engine off the stand. I understand it's really perpendicularity to the crank that's being measured. Then I'll shim the bellhousing if it needs it, and move on to check the concentricity. Since it looks like the only way to do it right with a T56 is to pull the front cover off the tranny, I guess I'll do that :(. The link I posted gives pretty good instructions how to take the tranny apart and re-assemble it.

[Rick_L]

There were times I just needed a simple piece cut and drilled and one or more dimensions didn't matter. I told them that...but they insisted that I put a tolerance on it before they'd cut the part. So I gave them a spec that probably confounded them....+/- 1/8".

In the engineering world I worked in, you put a tolerance on everything. When you spec a large tolerance, that doesn't mean they have to use it up, just that it's their choice on method and machinery to build it.

[NickP]

The dowels come in pretty coarse increments unless you are going to make your own.

I don't see a big problem.

Nick, you're a bit testy here, no need for that - I just wanted to see if I was missing something. No criticism or challenge intended.

My apology.

[NickP]

If it was mine I'd do the whole deal. After all, the transmission is still very accessible.

But if you only check the bellhousing itself, which is far easier, that will deal with what is likely the biggest risk.

It's kind of like getting anal over the valve timing on 1 cylinder, versus knowing what they all do.

And I wouldn't trust Keisler to do anything right. They had a proven track record of not doing much right.

Hold on a sec. Someone draw me a picture of what is being accomplished by this inspection/adjustment. What's the written specs for this issue? Drawings? Any at all?

[NickP]

Not counting the disk or pressure plate, there sure seem like there is a lot of room for error in just about any one part. I don't have the Dimensional's for anything shown. If someone can fill in the blanks and add to this maybe it's just one of those things that can, if allowed to, drive you nuts.
http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6220&stc=1

[Rick_L]

Nick, what you want to do is check the runout between the crankshaft and the bearing bore in the front plate, and the runout/perpendicularity of the front plate mating surface to the crankshaft.

The cumulative tolerance on the crankshaft/front plate bore is +/-.005, and the cumulative tolerance on the crankshaft/mounting plate surface is +/-.002.

Both of these can be checked using a dial indicator on a magnetic stand that is placed on the flywheel. This assumes that the flywheel mounting surface has minimal runout, so that should be checked first. And you check and correct the mounting surface runout first. You do the best you can on placing the indicator so that its travel is as you originally suggested. One other thing, errors from the indicator angularity tend to diminish with indicator travel, so any progress toward fixing problems means less error too.

Problems are fixed with shims to correct the mounting surface and with offset dowel pins for the bearing bore.

That's how I understand the process anyway.

[NickP]

OK, but where is this written or shown on a print or a drawing file? Or, is this someone's pipe dream and they just said that's what it should be Rick. Just for giggles, I went through the system (google) and found four separate pieces regarding conversion from an Automatic to a t56. Of the four installs, not a one mentions this precaution. I'm not saying it shouldn't be done I just want to know who/what the authority is that says it should be done and what document or source is used to back it up. If, factory parts are within tolerance (each piece) I can see why there is no call out during assembly. The repair (disassembly and reassembly) manual only talks about internal Dimensional's on shafts and minimal other precautions, nothin about this which, as I type it is understandable.

What, if just for conversational reasons, the factory had a bad day and the cone race for the input shaft was not seated properly, say cocked to one side or a piece of debris was under the seating area, one adjusts for what is thought to be runout when all along it's misassembled. In the vid supplied that's what's being checked. Here, one is not dealing a bore and indicating it may lead to a false negative. I think that checking the top surface of the race (very small area) with the proper dial indicator tip might be needed too. You can't shim for misassembled parts..

Also, are we really talking "Runout"? It all looks to be more about where each feature is in space and each features relationship. No mention of where it is, only a tolerance.

For me, and my knees, I 'll stick with an Automatic, seem so much simpler. :)

[Troy]

Aw come on guy's just stick it up on your CMM and do a full inspection report... you do have a CMM in your garage don't you, doesn't everyone?

[NickP]

One last thought. McLeod, if memory hasn't failed me, has a plate (precisionly machined ) that, when you purchase one of their housings, is available to use for alignment of just the housing due to the odd shape of the opening and inability to properly indicate it. Certainly, this doesn't take into account any variation within the remainder of the complete assembly but at least will get the housing where it belongs. In my conversations with them years ago, it seemed odd that they had one so I asked why, isn't your manufacturing process any good at keeping things right. His response was, how many Lakewood housings have you checked in the past and how many were within spec? I said everyone I ever used and none. Then I asked, but what, where or by whom was that spec derived? No answer, hence my quandary regarding this whole scenario. Documentation rules, where is it?

[NickP]

Aw come on guy's just stick it up on your CMM and do a full inspection report... you do have a CMM in your garage don't you, doesn't everyone?

I used to, a FARO ARM but the rent was too much.

[chevynut]

Nick your drawing is pretty complete and correct. Except in my case I have another 1/2" steel adapter between the bellhousing and the transmission front case, and a block protector plate between the bellhousing and block. There are dowels that locate the transmission front case to that adapter. Everything has a tolerance, so that's why you have to assemble the whole works to check concentricity of the input shaft of the transmission (front bearing hole) to the centerline of the crankshaft. First you have to make sure the transmission mounting surface on the bellhousing is perpendicular to the crankshaft within .002" TIR. Then you check concentricity and make sure it's in spec.

Speaking of specs, I keep reading different posts and they have different specs. Here's one I found:

JodysTransmissions

02-16-2015, 08:37 AM


Bellhousing Alignment Specs:
Parallel alignment specs are +/-.001" or .002" TIR
Concentric alignment specs are +/-.005" or .010" TIR
I shoot for half those industry specs posted above, the better your alignment, the better shiftability you will experience.

I think I'm going to assemble the adapter to the bellhousing, then check the parallelism (aka perpendicularity) because that's the surface the transmission actually mounts to. Then I will check concentricity after I bolt the front case to the adapter. ;)

Here's what my adapter looks like:

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6221&stc=1

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6222&stc=1

[chevynut]

OK, but where is this written or shown on a print or a drawing file? Or, is this someone's pipe dream and they just said that's what it should be Rick. Just for giggles, I went through the system (google) and found four separate pieces regarding conversion from an Automatic to a t56. Of the four installs, not a one mentions this precaution. I'm not saying it shouldn't be done I just want to know who/what the authority is that says it should be done and what document or source is used to back it up. If, factory parts are within tolerance (each piece) I can see why there is no call out during assembly.

Not sure what you're getting at but according to several threads I've read Tremec "requires" that you properly align the input shaft to the pilot bearing. They don't tell you how to do it.

http://www.tremec.com/anexos/TKO_Installation_Tips_117_117.pdf

"Clutch housing The clutch housing must be properly installed and aligned using a dial indicator. The centerline of the transmission must match the

crankshaft, or severe damage to the transmission will occur.The clutch housing must also be perpendicular to the rear of the engine block.A maximum run-out of .005” is allowable. Specific dial indicating instructions should be included with your clutch housing."

They also say to align the it to .010" TIR in the troubleshooting section of the service manual. So their specs seem very confusing and conflicting.



What, if just for conversational reasons, the factory had a bad day and the cone race for the input shaft was not seated properly, say cocked to one side or a piece of debris was under the seating area, one adjusts for what is thought to be runout when all along it's misassembled. In the vid supplied that's what's being checked.

I think leaving the cone in is a bad idea personally. Guys say to remove it and check the bore in the case. How can you check runout accurately on a beveled surface? The bearing bore and cone should accurately align the input shaft to the case.


For me, and my knees, I 'll stick with an Automatic, seem so much simpler.

For me, a hotrod isn't a hotrod without 3 pedals :). I can't imagine owning a sports car with an automatic either. My Porsche has a 6-speed too...but the shift pattern is different as far as where reverse is. :cry: If you have bad knees, you get a pass. :)

[markm]

I am lucky it is my right hip that is bad otherwise a 4/5 speed would be out.

[NickP]

"Clutch housing The clutch housing must be properly installed and aligned using a dial indicator. The centerline of the transmission must match the crankshaft, or severe damage to the transmission will occur.The clutch housing must also be perpendicular to the rear of the engine block.A maximum run-out of .005” is allowable. Specific dial indicating instructions should be included with your clutch housing."

They also say to align the it to .010" TIR in the troubleshooting section of the service manual. So their specs seem very confusing and conflicting.


Perpendicular? How can two flange surfaces, specific to this analysis, be Perpendicular? Parallel maybe. I know you just cut and pasted what was printed and that's my point, the supplier/manufacturer can't even get their specs to match much less use the proper terminology. I know you are firmly aware of this; Perpendicularity - is the condition of a surface, axis, or line, which is 90 deg. From a datum plane or a datum axis. Parallelism - is the condition of a surface, line, or axis, which is equidistant at all points from a datum plane or axis.

When typing the above reply and drawing the sketch I did recall that your specific install did include that adaptor plate. So, in your particular case, you have even more surfaces to be concerned about with regard to parallelism, miss-machined locator dowels, bearing locations both at the pilot bushing and the output shaft conical bearing. I understand the concern from Tremec knowing that bearings can only take so much miss-alignment before the edges of the rollers (at both ends) begin to prematurely deform, erode and eventually meet their maker so to speak.

As a matter of interest, have you put a dial indicator on your flywheel to determine the parallelism of the block flange compared to the flywheel surface?

[chevynut]

How can two flange surfaces, specific to this analysis, be Perpendicular? Parallel maybe.

Nick, what they're trying to say is the transmission mounting surface of the bellhousing has to be perpendicular to the centerline of the crankshaft. Most guys call it "parallelism" but that's not technically correct. If the block was perfectly perpendicular to the crank, you could call it parallelism.


So, in your particular case, you have even more surfaces to be concerned about with regard to parallelism, miss-machined locator dowels, bearing locations both at the pilot bushing and the output shaft conical bearing.

Yes, and that's why I plan to check it as an assembly, not as individual parts.


As a matter of interest, have you put a dial indicator on your flywheel to determine the parallelism of the block flange compared to the flywheel surface?

No, and I probably won't do that because it's irrelevant in the end. All that matters is that the runout of the bellhousing face (adapter face in my case) is within .002" TIR. I'm not sure how you'd do that on the block flange anyhow. :confused:

[chevynut]

As far as I'm concerned this assembly is together and never needs to come apart again. Bolts are in with Loctite and torqued to specs. I'll Check perpendicularity on the machined face. It will be painted as an assembly. ;)

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6223&stc=1

[Rick_L]

The specs I gave are for a QuickTime bellhousing installation on a T56. I think the Tremec specs are the same.

You caught me on "runout". It's overused and unclear, and its use is generally discouraged in engineering and inspection because it can be ambiguous, as you know. "Concentric within .010"" is what I should have said for the bearing bore, where concentric is the ANSI definition which is based on diameter (ISO uses radius). The mounting face should be stated as "perpendicular within .002"".

The McLeod plate would seem to be the equivalent of the Tremec front plate. Using it, you're assuming that the Tremec parts are made to zero tolerance as well as the McLeod substitute.

On a side note, I don't find those modular T56 bellhousings in McLeod's online catalog or on their website any more.

[chevynut]

No sooner did I get the damned thing assembled when I realized that the clutch fork pivot ball bushing has to be installed from the outside of the bellhousing, UNDER THE DAMNED ADAPTER!!! :mad:

So I took the adapter back off, got my Lakewood fork ball bushing and tried to install it. It wouldn't go in without cross-threading. So I tried threading it in from the inside and it goes in all the way with no problem, but doesn't come all the way through to the backside. It looks like there's a slight ding in the top thread and I don't have a clue how it got there. I've never touched it and it was a brand new bellhousing.

Anyhow, I figured I'd just find the right size bolt and thread it through to chase the threads. But what the hell size is this thread?

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6224&stc=1

http://pitstopusa.com/images/F142347701.jpg

[NickP]

No sooner did I get the damned thing assembled when I realized that the clutch fork pivot ball bushing has to be installed from the outside of the bellhousing, UNDER THE DAMNED ADAPTER!!! :mad:

So I took the adapter back off, got my Lakewood fork ball bushing and tried to install it. It wouldn't go in without cross-threading. So I tried threading it in from the inside and it goes in all the way with no problem, but doesn't come all the way through to the backside. It looks like there's a slight ding in the top thread and I don't have a clue how it got there. I've never touched it and it was a brand new bellhousing.

Anyhow, I figured I'd just find the right size bolt and thread it through to chase the threads. But what the hell size is this thread?

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6224&stc=1

http://pitstopusa.com/images/F142347701.jpg

What pitch is it? Do you have a set of metric and inch thread gauges?

[NickP]

M22x1.5 is close. Do you have a set of metric and inch thread gauges?

[chevynut]

I finally got the bushing in. I couldn't find anything close in size to chase the threads. They're 16 TPI but must be a custom diameter or something. They're not metric either.

I ended up grinding a little off the very top of the first thread with my die grinder. Then the bushing started tightly, but gradually loosened as the threads were re-formed. So I got the bushing in (with Loctite) and the adapter is back on....for good...I hope. :p

[chevynut]

M22x1.5 is close. Do you have a set of metric and inch thread gauges?

From what I can tell it's 16 threads per inch per my thread file. It's not metric....it measures 20.43mm which I think is way too small for a 22mm thread. And why would they make it metric when the other bolts are all SAE? It's in, so I'm not going to screw around with it any more.

[Rick_L]

From the information you posted, it's a 13/16-16 thread. Obviously you won't find a bolt with that thread.

I'd suggest making a chaser tap from another pivot ball. You could machine the flange off in a lathe so it would drive all the way through from the inside.

Threads for things like this don't have to match bolt sizes. I'm sure you can find 13/16-16 thread dimensions in Machinery's Handbook.

[chevynut]

I'd suggest making a chaser tap from another pivot ball. You could machine the flange off in a lathe so it would drive all the way through from the inside.

Good idea and thanks for that, but I already got it fixed. It wasn't buggered up that bad, but just enough that it wouldn't start straight. I tried to use a countersink to take off the first thread but I don't have one larger than 3/4". The die grinder did the trick.

I wasn't even thinking about that pivot when I put the adapter on...hope I haven't forgotten anything else. Oh, I bought a Lakewood clutch fork boot but after looking at it again it's not going to work either because of the adapter. I either have to cut it to fit against the adapter, or send it back to Summit. :mad:

I bought all my clutch parts long ago....pilot bearing, flywheel, pressure plate and disc, throwout bearing, fork, slave cylinder, etc. I've never actually assembled it and verified it works, so I hope I don't run into a bunch of BS there too.

[55 Rescue Dog]

The full hydraulic clutch is the only way to go. The one I installed on a Muncie behind a SBC is by far the best clutch pedal action I have ever had. Better than my BMW M roadster, C5, and anything else I have driven in years. 7/8's cylinder, Wilwood pedal, Howe hydraulic TO bearing. EASY. No linkage, just a 3AN line. Anything over a 4-speed maual, I prefer autos. You could always just switch to a 4L80E.

[chevynut]

The full hydraulic clutch is the only way to go. The one I installed on a Muncie behind a SBC is by far the best clutch pedal action I have ever had. Better than my BMW M roadster, C5, and anything else I have driven in years. 7/8's cylinder, Wilwood pedal, Howe hydraulic TO bearing. EASY. No linkage, just a 3AN line.

It is hydraulic up to the slave cylinder. I have a Wilwood master cylinder and an OEM slave. There's nothing wrong with a mechanical clutch fork and regular throwout bearing. I've heard of WAY too many hydraulic throwout bearings leaking and one of my customers went through 3 of them in his 55 LS/T56 and they were not cheap ones. If they leak you have to pull the tranny and that's not something I want to be doing. It's easy to change an external slave if it leaks, and oil doesn't get all over the clutch. It's easy to adjust an external slave to fork rod. Plus it's a LOT cheaper than the hydraulic TO bearing when a replacement is needed.

Way too many hydraulic TO bearing failures reported for me:

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/hydraulic-throwout-bearing-or-slave.624925/
https://www.google.com/search?q=leaky+hydraulic+throwout+bearing&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8

You go your way and I'll go mine. Some say mechanical is the only way to go. Everyone has different reasons to do what they do. If I can't fit a slave in there with my headers, I'll consider a hydraulic one as a last resort.


Anything over a 4-speed maual, I prefer autos.

Forgive me but that's a pretty dumb statement imo. It's okay to shift 4 gears but not 5 or 6? You can always skip shift...I do it all the time in my Porsche and Corvettes force you to skip gears under certain conditions. I would never own a 4 speed or any other tranny without an overdrive so that's a minimum of 5 gears. I'll get an auto when I'm too old and weak to push the clutch in. The new Corvettes have 7 speed manuals....I guess that would really be tough. LOL!

http://www.corvetteblogger.com/images/content/092411_1.jpg

[55 Rescue Dog]

Yeah I have a 5 speed in my BMW M roadster, and a 6 in my C5, but the fun is always over after 4 gears, then it's just cruising for better MPG, and less engine wear. 10 speed manuals will be next, just like bicycles from long ago.

[markm]

Never thought of it, but the instructions that came with my Tremec actually advised you not to hit 5th hard. I agree the fun is over after 4th, after that its cruise.

[chevynut]

I've been doing some more polishing of the C4 suspension parts but I have to admit it's getting pretty old :cry:. Got the rear caliper brackets and both halfshafts sanded and polished. Both rear knuckles are partially sanded but they're a real PITA and there's a lot of areas the buffing wheel can't get to so I'll have to use a buff in my die grinder. Typically I sand everything to 600 grit, then hit it with the buffer and go back and sand any areas that still have scratches left and then buff again. It's a pretty tedious process.

I don't know why I can't get the aluminum to a mirror finish but I think it might be the buildup on my buffing wheel and the fact that it's not a "loose" cotton wheel. I do have a buff rake and keep using it as I polish. I can get the aluminum to the point of very fine scratches but not to that "wet" look of mirror polished parts. I have a couple of new spiral sewn wheels so I may try them.

I already polished the rack and lower a-arms and they're almost ready for Cerakote. I need to do one last buffing on them before coating after I figure out how to get a better finish.

Also ordered a pair of new Timken rear hubs just so everything is new and I don't have to worry about them. :)

Oh, and I tightened the front dogbone bolts to 100 ft-lb and I can still rotate the dogbones to any angle fairly freely so there's no binding there. ;)

[LEE T]

600 is very aggressive if you want a mirror finish.

[chevynut]

600 is very aggressive if you want a mirror finish.

I buff it after 600 grit. It's the buffing wheels that are leaving the fine scratches. You can't see the 600 grit scratches after buffing. I've even tried to sand with 1200 and 2000, and it looks the same afterward.

[LEE T]

When all is working correctly, buffing removes scratches, so what are you using that is putting scratches in? I can't help you with your problem, I'm just saying something isn't right.

[chevynut]

When all is working correctly, buffing removes scratches, so what are you using that is putting scratches in? I can't help you with your problem, I'm just saying something isn't right.

I agree. I think the buffing wheel itself is putting the scratches in the aluminum. The scratches are very fine, as I mentioned. I had the same problem buffing the stainless steel parts. It's probably buildup in the wheel that I can't get out with the rake. I use different wheels for the green compound and the white compound. I believe the white is the finest.

I just ordered some loose cotton wheels and I'll see if that helps. I'll use the white compound or red rouge.

[LEE T]

I wouldn't think you should use the same products for SS and alum.

[LEE T]

Why don't you find a buffing forum and see what they use on alum?

[chevynut]

Why don't you find a buffing forum and see what they use on alum?

I bought all my stuff from Caswell Plating and they say to use white compound on aluminum with a loose wheel.

http://www.caswellplating.com/buffman.htm

http://www.caswellplating.com/buffs/images/wheel_chart.gif

BLACK (http://www.caswellplating.com/buffing-polishing/buffing-compounds.html) = Emery Compound, a course abrasive material for removal of scratches, pits, paint,
rust etc.
BROWN (http://www.caswellplating.com/buffing-polishing/buffing-compounds.html) = Tripoli compound used for general purpose cut and color on most soft metals.
WHITE (http://www.caswellplating.com/buffing-polishing/buffing-compounds.html) = Blizzard compound, used for color and final finish of harder metals, has a cutting action.
RED (http://www.caswellplating.com/buffing-polishing/buffing-compounds.html) = Jeweller’s Rouge, designed to polish without any cutting action. Safe on thin plates. Use
on its own wheel.
BLUE (http://www.caswellplating.com/buffing-polishing/buffing-compounds.html) = A dryer, almost greaseless wheel - designed to polish without any cutting action. Safe
on thin plates. Use on its own wheel.
GREEN (http://www.caswellplating.com/buffing-polishing/buffing-compounds.html) = Used exclusively for Stainless Steel.

[chevynut]

The loose buffing wheels seem to help get a better shine, so I got some more polishing done. The halfshafts, rear caliper brackets are finished and I re-polished the lower a-arms, so they're all ready for cerakote. Then I have to install the new u-joints and put the halfshafts on the rearend. Still have the rear knuckles to do but they're really a PITA.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6299&stc=1

[oceangoer]

Wow, great job re all ,, an esp the polishing. So so much work !! Your typical standing quality

I used Zoops sealer on my aluminum parts. I re-polished the aluminum dash Instrument plates about five years ago and applied the Zoops per their instructions. And surprisingly it's still shinny. Now I need to re-polish that radiator and core support, and wheels and and... I was a bit shy of spray one clear coats. Just a thought.

RE the trany install. I guess we were lucky when we installed my LS1 with a T-56 trans. The bell was well within the OEM spec. The TKO I helped a good friend install a few weeks ago was a serious PITA. The offset dowel pins got the run-out well within spec, but the TKO still makes noise at idle - Maker says it's typical... Hummmm.

RE the hyd clutch system. I've got three LS motors (LS1's & LS6) with the OEM hyg T.O. Bearings, never any issues. The shops up here that I've spoken with that's typical for Delco, but not the other makers, China etc....

My life long friend Steve design the hydraulic setup for my LS1 / T56 in Betty, my '56. The parts, master cylinder mounting plate etc, were designed on Solid Works. Mine's been in use since the Summer of 2007, flawless operation and no Leaks, I hate fluid leaks.

Simple setup, and No holes to drill or any welding etc.. Utilities 2001 era Camaro LS1 clutch master and hydraulic T.O. Bearing. You do need to remove the masters 1/4 inch non-adjustable captive push-rod and install the 5/16 inch hardened push-rod and spherical rod end.

We've still got several sets on the metal plates and push rods on the shelf somewhere. Let me know if you need a set and I'll mail you enough parts, less the master ans slave T.O. bearing.... I've got photos here someplace...

Michael..

[chevynut]

We've still got several sets on the metal plates and push rods on the shelf somewhere. Let me know if you need a set and I'll mail you enough parts, less the master ans slave T.O. bearing.... I've got photos here someplace...


I designed and built my own under-dash hydraulic clutch master cylinder setup. It's all hidden and nothing goes through the firewall....except the hose which is down low. Still not sold on the hydraulic TO bearing, though. I'll consider it if my slave doesn't work out.

The all-thread is just for mockup and new rods will be made.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6300&stc=1

[55 Rescue Dog]

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6302&stc=1Curious how you get fluid in the master cylinders? On my hot rod with I have the rear facing cylinders with clear reservoirs. Even with that, I have to remove the gauge panel and fill them with a hand pump with a 2 foot piece of tubing. It was easy the first time before I put the dash/body on. Now it's 2 years past to for a fluid flush on all 3 cylinders because it's not easy now. Hard to see in this pic but it is a reverse mount Wilwood pedal with Howe compact masters that are only 2 inches long. Adjustable remote balance bar too. It's a great simple setup with a good mount.
http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6301&stc=1

[55 Rescue Dog]

Here is the flip side. With the A/F gauge, and brake pressure gauges not visible behind steering wheel, there are 11 gauges.http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6303&stc=1

[NickP]

What does this have to do with a C4 Chassis Assembly?

[55 Rescue Dog]

What does this have to do with a C4 Chassis Assembly?
It was just an alternative to a convoluted brake pedal/clutch setup, of which I would like to avoid on my C4 chassis! Simple, with adjustable F/R brake pressures, verified by gauges. With a hydraulic parking lock too. No clutch on my 55 C4-LS 4L60E , which helps. Won't work with a hydro-boost though, but I'm not convinced that I have to have power brakes with a good manual set-up either.

[chevynut]

Looks nice RD. I have looked at what it will take to fill the MC and I don't think it's going to be too bad. It's fairly accessible under the dash, but again I didn't have AC hoses and probably some other stuff in the way. And I don't plan on changing fluid often, if ever. I just didn't want a remote reservoir or anything on the firewall there. I remember some Gen 3 (??) Camaros that had sealed systems and you had to change the MC and slave as a unit because they weren't serviceable.

[Rick_L]

The Gen4 Camaros used two different setups on their T56 transmissions. The LT1 setup was an assembly with the master, slave, hose, and reservoir. It wasn't intended to be taken apart but you could - on the other hand all you could buy as a replacement from GM was the assembly, and it was sold full of fluid. You could certainly remove it from the car to change the fluid. It was a self bleeding system like power steering. The LS1 setup used separate master and slave units. There are bleeder hoses sold in the aftermarket that make bleeding them much easier. It's a hose that attaches to the slave that you can open up to bleed the system. Not sure what the Gen3 used.

The LT1 used a slave cylinder pushing on a fork, and the LS1 used a hydraulic throwout bearing. The hydraulic throwout bearing they use is "fairly" reliable, but it's recommended that if you're replacing the clutch or have the trans out for any reason, you should spring for a new one.

I don't know why you'd really need to change the fluid like you should on brakes. The reason to do so on brakes is that brake fluid is hygroscopic and will cause corrosion on iron or steel, as well as lowering the boiling point. Corrosion isn't a problem with aluminum or plastic, and the fluid in a clutch system isn't going to get hot like brakes do.

[chevynut]

I finally got the parts final polished and today I sprayed the Cerakote on the lower front a-arms, steering rack, rear brake brackets, and halfshafts. After a few days of curing I can install the new boots on the rack and get it in the chassis, press the lower balljoints and bushings into the a-arms and install them, and press the new 1350 Spicer u-joints into the halfshafts. I can't finish assembling the rearend until I get those damned rear knuckles polished. :eek:

Just remembered I have to deal with my Aldan coilovers too. They're brand new but they seem to have lost their gas charge. I will call Aldan and see what they recommend I do with them. Then I'll try one more spring rate calculation and make sure I have the right springs for them.

[chevynut]

Today I put the poly bushings in the lower a-arms and will get the balljoints installed next. The positive battery cable is back in the conduit in the frame and I'll swage the lugs on the ends when I get the engine installed. I also re-assembled the rack, re-drilled the holes for the "rivets" in the rack cylinder and drove them in, and got the rack in the chassis. The clamp will have to be modified to clear the passenger side fitting.

6365

Now that the rack's in place I should be able to lower the engine into the chassis and proceed with the rest of the chassis assembly.

[chevynut]

I got back yesterday from another trip to the mountains and today I tried to install the new balljoints into the lower a-arms....NO GO! These balljoints came in a front end rebuild kit from PST several years ago and I don't know what brand they are. I did a search on the internet and found another guy on the Corvette Forum that had the same issue. The balljoint body is 2.089" diameter and the hole in the a-arm is 2.068".....a little too tight for a press-fit. Luckily I measured everything before I put the parts into my 20-ton press. :eek:

So I guess I have to order some new balljoints now. :mad:

I was able to get all 4 Spicer 1350 u-joints into the polished and coated halfshafts so they're now finished and ready to install. I still have to finish polishing the rear knuckles and decide what to do with the lower strut rods. I cut my originals down years ago to fit the 4" narrowed rear and TIG welded them back together but I'm not sure I want to use them. I may use some adjustable rods with urethane rod ends in them instead of the stock cam-type camber adjusters.

[chevynut]

Got a new pair of AC Delco lower balljoints from Rock Auto and I'm still concerned about them. They measure 2.082" diameter which is a little smaller than the other pair I had, but still seems awful big for a 2.068" hole. That's .014" interference fit....Does that seem right? I'm really worried about cracking the a-arm.

The parts I just got are ACDELCO 46D2153A and they say "Advantage" on the box. I just looked again and I see there's another AC Delco part available and it's ACDELCO 45D2153 "Professional" for 4 times the price! What's the difference? Several guys on the Corvette Forum recommended AC Delco so that's what I got. Some like the MOOG parts.

The MOOG part number is K6345 and it's $109 each at O'Reilly's. They say the diameter is 2.300". :eek: That must not be the press-fit size.

http://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/detail/MOO0/K6345/03315.oap?year=1990&make=Chevrolet&model=Corvette&vi=1041264&ck=Search_C0317_1041264_3162&pt=C0317&ppt=C0106

Rock Auto has the MOOG parts for $47.75 each. The ACDELCO 45D2153 parts are $64.75 each. Wish I'd looked closer before I ordered them but I just wanted to get a good brand.

These a-arms didn't have any balljoints in them so I didn't take them out, otherwise I'd measure the old balljoints.

Not sure what to do now. Maybe I need to go to a local parts store with my calipers and see what they have and how they compare.

[NickP]

Machinery Handbook - 24th edition, says "Allowance For Forced fit - .001 to .0025 per inch with .0015 being a fair average." My question, and Rick will have the answer, is the difference between a fit in aluminum versus steel. If you had some dry ice it might ease the assembly some but again, when the BJ comes up to room temp I don't know what will happen. Is the dimension you have for the control arm an average or a single measurement (not that that really makes a difference)?

[chevynut]

http://econtent.autozone.com:24999/znetcs/psb/en_US/2/0/206/fa2101_ball_joint_service_specific.pdf

Duralast Part No. FA2101 Press-In Ball Joint Service

Applications affected: All vehicles using Ball Joint FA2101: Ford Crown Victoria, Mercury Grand Marquis, Lincoln Town Car (1995-2002) and Ford Mustang (1994-2004).

Description: This ball joint relies on a press (interference) fit within the control arm opening. This means the diameter of the ball joint housing needs to be larger than the inside diameter of the opening in the control arm housing. By OEM design this is a .002” (two thousandths) interference fit. However,most aftermarket balljoints, including Duralast, are manufactured slightly larger than the OEM part, to provide additional interference to compensate for minor wear of the opening in the control arm. "

I think I'm going to press an OEM balljoint out of one of my other lower C4 a-arms and do some measuring. There's always some goddam thing slowing my progress.

[chevynut]

Machinery Handbook - 24th edition, says "Allowance For Forced fit - .001 to .0025 per inch with .0015 being a fair average."

So that would be .003" for the C4 a-arm.


My question, and Rick will have the answer, is the difference between a fit in aluminum versus steel.

Yes, I've been wondering about that myself. I have many hours of polishing in these a-arms and really don't want to break them or I have to start over. :(


Is the dimension you have for the control arm an average or a single measurement (not that that really makes a difference)?

I've measured both a-arms several times and keep coming up with 2.068" with calipers for the BJ hole. I may re-measure more accurately with a snap gauge and mic but I'm betting it's withing a couple thousandths. The Cerakote is really thin so it's not affecting the measurement much, I don't believe.

[NickP]

There's Cerakote in the hole? As memory serves me, and this was years ago, we were making parts for the Navy (Govt. Contractor) and always, any bore for machined fits, be it Titanium, Aluminum or Steel were not allowed to have any material (Free of Finish) in the receiving bore. I suspect they had a good reason but way over my head.

[WagonCrazy]

Have you sanded down the ceracoat yet? Just to be sure you have the most accurate "stock" opening measurement? Can the a-arm ball joint holes be machined (opened up) ever so slightly so that you have the size of your ball joints? Just thinking it a bit here...

[chevynut]

I have not sanded down the Cerakote and didn't mask it before spraying because I forgot :eek:. But it's supposed to be a half a mil thick (0.0005"). I have .014-.021" interference fit depending on the balljoint I use. I don't think the Cerakote is the issue. ;)

[NickP]

I wasn't suggesting that the coating was the issue. I guess my concern would be more from the BJ skiving off the coating (regardless which one is used) and not allowing the BJ to be seated fully in its bore as the material built up at the bottom. I'm certain I'm just overthinking things again. Do you have any other lowers that need BJ's? If yes, maybe press one out and measure it and inspect the hole for issues.

What does the manual say about the process or sizes?

[chevynut]

Okay I just took another lower a-arm with the original GM balljoint and pressed it out. I measured the balljoint body with a 2-3" micrometer and got 2.075-2.078". It seems to have a slight taper to it and the small measurement is the place that hits the a-arm first when installing it. I also measured the hole in the a-arm with a snap gauge and the same mic and got 2.068", which is the same as I got before on my a-arms with the calipers. The bore is not very clean and has scrape marks from pressing the BJ out. That gives an interference fit of .007" to start out and .010" at the fully seated position. That seems fairly reasonable for a press fit.

I re-measured my a-arms and depending on where I measure I get 2.066-2.068", about the same as the other one I just disassembled. Some of this variance is likely the Cerakote (.001" or so) and some is due to small burrs in the bore. It's probably 2.068" nominally. Wish I knew what the design size is supposed to be.

The Delco BJ I got measures 2.084-2.086" again slightly tapered. That gives an interference fit of .016-.018".

The BJ I originally got in my rebuild kit measures 2.091-2.092" with almost no taper. I'm not sure why it measured larger this time but I didn't re-check with the calipers. That gives an interference fit of .023-.024".

Here's a couple pics....the BJ on the left is the one from my rebuild kit, and the center one is the Delco part. The hole in the polished a-arm is nice and clean (Nick, the a-arms are a pair I got from you :)):

6390

6391

6392

6393

[chevynut]

C-4 Lower ball Joint part problem.... "I am in the process of replacing the lower ball joints (http://rover.ebay.com/rover/13/0/19/DealFrame/DealFrame.cmp?bm=409&BEFID=96477&acode=403&code=403&aon=&crawler_id=418398&dealId=mkO7LxiPGE5KaI_FvK21OQ%3D%3D&searchID=&url=http%3A%2F%2Fclickserve.dartsearch.net%2Flink% 2Fclick%3Flid%3D92700010379414119%26ds_s_kwgid%3D5 8700000545715106%26ds_s_inventory_feed_id%3D977000 00001003226%26ds_e_product_id%3DSPC67135%26ci_cust omer_id%3D1001100%26ci_cse_id%3D1004%26ci_feed_id% 3D1001555%26ds_e_product_merchant_id%3D480351%26ds _e_product_country%3DUS%26ds_e_product_language%3D en%26ds_e_product_channel%3Donline%26ds_url_v%3D2% 26ds_dest_url%3Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.tirerack.com%2Fa. jsp%253Fa%253DDO2%2526url%253D%2Fsuspension%2Fsusp ension.jsp%2526make%253DSPC%2526model%253DAdjustab le%252BBall%252BJoint%2526partnum%253DSPC67135%252 6GCID%253DC13674x012-suspension%2526KEYWORD%253Dsuspension_SPC_Adjustab le_Ball_Joint%2526code%253Dyes%2526group%253DAdjus table%252BBall%252BJoint%2526autoMake%253DHonda%25 26autoModel%253DPrelude%252BSH%2526autoYear%253D20 01%2526autoModClar%253D%2526checkVehicle%253D&DealName=SPC%20Adjustable%20Ball%20Joint&MerchantID=418398&HasLink=yes&category=0&AR=-1&NG=1&GR=1&ND=1&PN=1&RR=-1&ST=&MN=msnFeed&FPT=SDCF&NDS=1&NMS=1&NDP=1&MRS=&PD=0&brnId=2455&lnkId=8070676&Issdt=160929051810&IsFtr=0&IsSmart=0&dlprc=88.0&SKU=SPC67135) on my 84 Corvette. I got new joints from NAPA and I measured them before I installed them.
I found the new joints to be .015 larger than the ones that I removed.
I also measured a set of TRW and Moog ball joints and found them to be the same as the NAPAs. I am hesitant to try to press these into the control arms, because I don't want to damage the bores. What am I missing. The control arms did have Z51 stamped on them, but the parts stores all claim the 84 up use only one type of joint. Any help would be appreciated.
Dave "

http://www.corvetteforum.com/forums/c4-tech-performance/2744037-c-4-lower-ball-joint-part-problem.html


"David B05-15-2008, 09:16 AM

Here's the latest episode of "Dave vs Ball Joint".

The control arm hole is approx. 2.063" id.
Original (removed) joint is approx. 2.075" od.
Aftermarket joint is approx. 2.091" od.

I'll have a GM joint tomorrow (Fri.)

Sat. I'll install whichever new joint is smaller od.

I'll put joint into freezer (to shrink) and use a bearing heater stuck into control arm hole (to expand), and go for it.

I'm an industrial mechanic/electrician and deal with press fits, tapered shafts, etc., but I've never dealt with anything that looked this simple but was this much trouble, AND I HAVE THE WHOLE REST OF THE CAR TO DO!!! before paint.

Thanks All for the advice. I'll post the results...good or bad.
It looks like I'll be wearing you all out with my rebuilds!"


"David B05-18-2008, 08:40 AM

I won!!!

Lightly sanding paint on joint's mating surface didn't help. Putting joint into freezer didn't help. Sticking top of bearing cone heater into hole in control arm didn't help. I had to simply force bearing tool (surprised I didn't break it), remove it, heat arm with torch (I don't really think torch helped either!), beat joint to realign it, use tool again, repeated procedure until joint was finally seated. I'm sure I had 4 or 5 hours in simply installing the lower joint. I'll install upper joint today.

When I decide to lower front ride height, will I have to go through this again, or worse?

Thanks to everyone!!! :thud:"



http://www.digitalcorvettes.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-101728.html


Seems like there would be lots of complaints on the internet about this, but I can only find a couple. From everything I read, everyone says just force it in.

[Rick_L]

A few comments but nothing to change the basics.

The Machinery Handbook general recommendation of .001"-.002" of interference per inch of diameter agrees with every other authoritative recommendation I know of.

That said, if aluminum is one of the materials, you might want to want the interference on the tighter end of the range because aluminum is not as stiff as steel. Also if the assembly was to be used at an elevated temperature (and this one is not), you'd want to have a tighter fit to overcome the higher thermal expansion rate of steel - if the part with the bore is aluminum.

Having more interference than the general recommendation could have negative consequences. The control arm hole could possibly split if the wall was thin enough. It could take more force than typical installation equipment could produce, or more than you have. This could also be a safety hazard if something broke (including the installation equipment, perhaps especially). Also as already seen, installation or removal may tear the aluminum, which is going to reduce the interference, defeating the intention of using a "more is better" approach to the fit.

If it was mine, I'd remove the coating trying not to remove metal. Removing metal runs the danger of a hole that's not as round as it once was. Then I'd seek some ball joints that are close to OEM diameter.

[chevynut]

Then I'd seek some ball joints that are close to OEM diameter.

I pretty much agree with everything you said, except I have no idea where to get BJ of the right size. Even that one has a .007-.010" interference fit.

I checked with Oreiley's locally and they don't stock any of them. Not sure about AZ. Seems like AC Delco parts should be the correct size, doesn't it? :?

I could order the other Delco part but it'll probably be close to the same thing. Who knows...I can't order every brand out there and measure them. :(

[chevynut]

Got to thinking about this some more and out of the tens of thousands of C4 Corvettes built, there has to be many thousands of balljoint replacements done. I'm betting people who do this just press them in and don't think about it. I can't find anything on the internet about broken a-arms from trying to do replace lower balljoints and I'm sure mine aren't the only oversize ones.

Soooooo, I think I'm going to just go for it. Neither Autozone, Oreilly's nor Napa have them in stock locally so I'm not going to special order them. I can't think of what else to do.

Now I'm probably going to have to make some tools to do this. :cry: I read that the typical balljoint installation tools don't fit.

[NickP]

I can tell you that the last set I did, never measured them (GM). This is the tool I used. It will leave a mark BTW.6394

[Rick_L]

I wasn't implying that your control arm would break, just a generality that it could if there wasn't enough metal around the hole.

And since you pressed one out with the tools you have, hopefully that's a reversible process.

[chevynut]

The a-arms I got from Nick didn't have any lower balljoints in them so I had no experience removing them. On the one I removed yesterday, I just pushed on the stud in my press and the stud came out the bottom of the housing, to my surprise. Then I just pressed the rest of it out. It was pretty easy to do. I have no tools to install them at this point and I could rent one from AZ, but notice that Nick had to grind his to fit. I can't do that with a rented one and really don't know if I want to buy one. So I'll probably hit the metal supply place and get something close that I can machine to fit. There's about 1/4" clearance around the balljoint on top so I think even aluminum would work and may not damage the arm as much as steel.

I got to wondering, though, if a Howe balljoint might be a better choice. I don't ever want to do this again, and the way I intend to use this car I may never have to :D. However, the Howe ball joints are user rebuildable. From the looks of the picture on their website they have a knurl on them that may provide an easier fit, but they'll probably tear up the hole more during installation. My guess is you can probably install them once and the a-arm probably won't accept the stock-type again and is therefore junk.

https://www.howeracing.com/p-7940-howe-22424-fits-k6345.aspx

[NickP]

Yes, I did have to dress up the sleeve but it is my tool. I just looked for the part number of the sleeve but none on it. You could purchase one and add it to your ever growing business services. Rebuilding the suspension pieces for the client that purchase from you.

As to the Howe units, servicing them is simple. One leaves the BJ housing intact within the lower or upper. The other positive, is a plethora of stem heights should one want to make some fine adjustments. Pricy, but in the grand scheme of things, just another cup of coffee.

[rockytopper R.I.P 5-13-2017]

And it might handle as good as my Bolt on stuff if you just listen to Nick lol even Ride tech is installing taller ball joints now lol....

[chevynut]

Today I finally found time to press in my lower balljoints (been gone deer hunting). What I ended up doing is taking the ones from the PST rebuild kit, chucking them up in my lathe, and turning them down to 2.077" which is about what I measured the stock one I pressed out. I was actually surprised how easily they machined. I made a tool to use in my 20 ton press, and pressed them in with no marks on the a-arms. :)

Here's the balljoints after machining and with new Energy Suspensions boots. I sprayed some black rattle can paint on them to keep them from rusting.

6448


Here's a pic of one of them installed:

6449


Here's a pic of a lower a-arm installed. I won't tighten the lower balljoint until I get the coilovers installed.
6450

I have also been working on those damned rack lines. I tried re-bending the stock ones and they aren't long enough, even with a 12mm banjo on the valve. I tried having new lines flared, but nobody can make them like GM did and I am concerned about using a single 45 degree flare that's so small anyhow. I've contacted Turn One to see if they sold new hardlines for a rotated C4 rack but haven't heard anything back.

I got some custom fittings made by Bluegrass Trifive (thanks Steve!) that adapt the 12mm x 1.5mm 45 degree rack fitting to an AN fitting but by the time I put them on and use an AN-4 90 degree hose end the hoses are way out in front of the rack. Also, the valve end has some really screwey o-ring flare like this that nobody can make:

6452

So Steve also got me some straight AN adapters for the valve end but again they make it hard to route the flex lines cleanly and compactly.

So I think I'm going forward with a plan to use braided stainless hose along with part of the stock flared tubes. Here's an interim pic and I'll post pics when I finish them. Once I get them done I can drop the engine in the chassis. ;)

6451

[chevynut]

I also decided to modify my driver's side header. I wish now that I had bought Doug's headers instead of Earle Williams' but it's too late now. I just like the look of the Doug's headers better, and my Williams headers are designed to go around the stock steering box which I don't have. I've never liked the way the driver's side looks so I plan to cut out #7 tube and re-route it straighter, instead of having that funky looking bend to it. Got the 2" diameter j-bend ordered. ;)

Here's the Doug's BBC headers:

6457

6458

And here's the Williams headers...the passenger side is fine:

6459

6461

[Rick_L]

Is that flare a GM metric o-ring flare with a funny shape to it? The necked down area might be what's different from a "normal" one but it may not make a functional difference. Just guessin' here.

Also your header links don't work for me.

[Custer55]

6452[/ATTACH]

So Steve also got me some straight AN adapters for the valve end but again they make it hard to route the flex lines cleanly and compactly.

So I think I'm going forward with a plan to use braided stainless hose along with part of the stock flared tubes. Here's an interim pic and I'll post pics when I finish them. Once I get them done I can drop the engine in the chassis. ;)

6451

I ended up making a new line with a double flare at the rack and it has not leaked so far. I made the double flare slightly larger by moving the line out of the flaring tool a bit and then flaring it again. I used the original end at the other end and cut it off and double flared it couple it to my new line. The O ring on that end is metric, I got new ones from "The Oring store" online. Can't remember exactly what size it was. I like the way you did your lines better though.
Brian

[chevynut]

Custer, thanks for the feedback. I have a 37 degree Ridgid flaring tool, but not a 45 degree one. I went to Tubes-N-Hoses and they couldn't make a large 45 degree flare like the GM one...in fact, theirs is smaller than standard for some reason. They're supposed to be .350" OD and theirs is only .330". The GM one is .370" and the hole in the nut is around .270. I don't know why the guy was hesitant to make it any bigger, even though I showed him what the issue was but it seemed to be related to the double flare tool. They did a single flare and it was only .330" but I don't think there's enough clamping area to work right and be safe.

I went back and forth on this trying to figure out what to do with it. I wanted it compact and neat-looking. I would have preferred hardlines for simplicity, but the flare on the cylinder end had me stumped. I have a solution for the valve end that I think will work when I get some parts I ordered. The hose I'm using is a little smaller in diameter than some of the other -4 hose I have and is more flexible so it works well, I think. I happened to have several -4 stainless hose ends from my aircraft mechanic days that I'm using and they measure the same as the ones made for this hose...all Aeroquip. Never did hear back from Turn One on whether they really sell those lines for a rotated rack.

[chevynut]

Called Aldan today to discuss my coilovers and what to do with them. I bought the shocks several years ago and they've been sitting on the car and on the shelf all that time. The nitrogen charge seems to be about gone but otherwise they seem to be in good shape. Aldan has a rebuild service where they put new, seals and new oil in them and re-charge the nitrogen. The tech told me they have also made some internal upgrades that they'll install. Cost is $99 a pair, which I'd like to avoid but I'd rather have them refreshed now than to have them leak or perform poorly when the car's running. :eek: It's cheaper than going with a new set of QA-1s. :)

So I'm going to polish them up (they recommended I do that first) and get them in the mail to Aldan asap so I can get them back and on the chassis.

My "final" calculations for spring rate say to use a 575 lb/in (10") spring in front assuming a 1.5" preload. I already bought 600 lb/in so I think I'll stick with them for now and change if they seem too stiff. I also calculated 550 lb/iin for the rear, but that's a 12" spring and a 1" preload. For some reason the 10" springs need to be compressed to install them on the shocks, but the 12" ones don't and are actually shorter than the shock body.

[55 Rescue Dog]

Called Aldan today to discuss my coilovers and what to do with them. I bought the shocks several years ago and they've been sitting on the car and on the shelf all that time. The nitrogen charge seems to be about gone but otherwise they seem to be in good shape. Aldan has a rebuild service where they put new, seals and new oil in them and re-charge the nitrogen. The tech told me they have also made some internal upgrades that they'll install. Cost is $99 a pair, which I'd like to avoid but I'd rather have them refreshed now than to have them leak or perform poorly when the car's running. :eek: It's cheaper than going with a new set of QA-1s. :)

So I'm going to polish them up (they recommended I do that first) and get them in the mail to Aldan asap so I can get them back and on the chassis.

My "final" calculations for spring rate say to use a 575 lb/in (10") spring in front assuming a 1.5" preload. I already bought 600 lb/in so I think I'll stick with them for now and change if they seem too stiff. I also calculated 550 lb/iin for the rear, but that's a 12" spring and a 1" preload. For some reason the 10" springs need to be compressed to install them on the shocks, but the 12" ones don't and are actually shorter than the shock body.
If 10", and 12" are the free length, how can the 12" be shorter than 10" ?

[chevynut]

If 10", and 12" are the free length, how can the 12" be shorter than 10" ?

Where did you get that? The front and rear shocks are different lengths as I explained. On the 10" shock the bottom of the body threads is at 10" from the top seat. One of the springs is about 10 1/8". It doesn't sound like a lot, but it's a 600 lb/in spring and it's a bitch to start the threads especially since I need to add a 1/8" Torrington thrust bearing between the nut and spring. The 12" shock is 12 1/2" from the top seat to the end of the threads. The spring is 12" so the nut on it starts easily.

[chevynut]

Got the shocks polished and they're going back to Aldan today. Hopefully they can turn them around fairly quickly. :eek:

6466

[chevynut]

I got the rack lines finished today. Had to use a 90 degree hose end at the valve to get the hoses to lay down right. Never did hear anything back from Turn One.

6476

6477

[NickP]

Looks nice. Hurry up and finish it. I want a ride. It'll make a great hunting wagon!

[chevynut]

Get your ass over here to help me and it might get done quicker...but maybe not. :) :D

The thing is I'm making progress almost daily. I just hope there's enough days left. :D

Engine is going in soon. I need to get it off the engine stand, install the flywheel, and index the bellhousing. I think that may be easier done in the chassis than hanging on a cherrypicker. I have an engine dolly, but it needs to use the dowels to support it. Any other ideas?

[NickP]

Do you still have the wood crate?

[chevynut]

Do you still have the wood crate?

This engine didn't come in a crate. It came from a guy who bought it new and then decided he didn't want to use it for some reason. I think he was in AZ if I recall correctly. Here's how I got it....It was shipped by truck sitting on a tire. :eek:

6482

[NickP]

Condense something like this.

6483

[chevynut]

Nick, I need to have the bellhousing surface free of any obstructions because I have a block plate that has to go on. Looks like that plywood would get in the way in the rear, but maybe there's room. Not a bad idea to get that clutch set up. Thanks for the idea. :)

[Rick_L]

Just did one last week hanging on the hook, helping a friend. Didn't have a frame or a crate. Went just fine.

The other thing that was amazing is that it was a new GM 502 block, and a Lakewood bellhousing that previously had offset dowels with a 454 block. No correction was needed - max indicator reading was .001". I'll probably never see that again.

[NickP]

Nick, I need to have the bellhousing surface free of any obstructions because I have a block plate that has to go on. Looks like that plywood would get in the way in the rear, but maybe there's room. Not a bad idea to get that clutch set up. Thanks for the idea. :)

That's why it says "remove" and "extend".

[chevynut]

That's why it says "remove" and "extend".

Okay, I get it now ;). Basically you're suggesting to support the engine by the pan rail. I'll consider that. It may make more sense to do as Rick suggested and just set it all up on the engine hoist. But I might go ahead and just drop it into the chassis once I get the block plate, flywheel and pilot bushing installed. Just realized I have to paint that block plate now. :eek:

[chevynut]

Alright I'm back to doing the bellhousing alignment that we discussed here in August :). I think the first step would be to install the block plate because it has to go on in front of the flywheel. But why do I need to install the flywheel to do this? Seems like I can put the indicator directly on the crank if there's a good surface to attach it to.

Then the bellhousing is installed and all the bolts are all torqued. The first thing to check is the "parallelism" of the mounting surfaces or the "perpendicularity" of the bellhousing tranny mounting surface to the crank. From what I've read that surface should be +/- .001" or .002" TIR relative to the crank centerline. Obviously this measurement is dependent on how far out your indicator sits. So the spec is really incomplete (to Nick's prior points) and the angle of the bellhousing face should really be specified, or a radius at which the .002" TIR applies. If I check it at 1.5" radius it's going to be 4 times worse at 6" radius. Conversely if it needs to be .002" TIR at 6" radius it needs to be .0005" at 1.5" radius. Any input on that?

Once I have the bellhousing face aligned I'll remove the front cover from the T56 and attach it to the adapter for the concentricity measurement. I robbed a pair of non-offset dowels out of my mockup block to use as a starting point. I noticed one of the 3/8" dowels is also missing from the T56 so I'll have to get one of those too. Not sure how that got lost. :confused:

[chevynut]

I'm almost finished polishing the rear knuckles but I ran out of white compound and felt bobs yesterday so I ordered more. I probably have over 10 hours in sanding and polishing each knuckle already. :eek: Once finished I will coat them with Cerakote and assemble the stub axles into them.

Nick was nice enough to donate a Newman dropped toe adjuster center aluminum casting for my project, so I sanded and polished it too and will Cerakote it along with the knuckles. I had to make some stainless sleeves to convert the 1/2" holes in the inboard heims to 10mm since that's the size of the bolt threads in the batwing. I also made a 1/4" stainless steel retainer for the heims. I have some tapered bushings for the knuckles and all I need is to order some swaged aluminum rods to finish the dropped toe adjuster.

I got the coilover shocks back from Aldan last week, newly rebuilt with new oil and a fresh nitrogen charge. I ordered some new chrome 550 lb/in springs for the rear and already have the 600 lb/in ones for the front. I also plan to Cerakote the shock bodies before assembly.

Yesterday I decided to take a look at something I've long speculated about with regard to poly suspension bushings. RD has said that he doesn't like Poly bushings because they "bind" the suspension. Car Creations published a video showing how a rear C4 suspension supposedly "binds" and hangs up when poly bushings are used, limiting free suspension travel. I think that video was biased and assembled to help sell their products and not representative of a proper installation. Based on how the poly bushings are supposed to work, that "binding" shouldn't happen. The bushings should be pressed into the suspension part, and the steel sleeve in the center should be lubed and it should rotate within the bushing, and the bushing should not rotate within the suspension component. The diameter of the center sleeve is larger than the diameter of the hole, so there is preload on the bushing when installed.

I had previously assembled my C4 dogbones with new Polygraphite bushings from P-S-T. They rotated fairly easily, but not as easily as I thought they should especially after sitting a while. So I took them back off and did some measuring. It turns out that the width of the front bushings when installed in the dogbones was around .020" or more WIDER than the length of the inner steel sleeve in all 4 locations. The inboard washers actually made an imprint in the bushings. The result of this is that the bushings were "pinched" between the frame parts as the bolts were torqued down. This causes a lot of friction in the assembly, which restricts free movement. It also forces the grease out from the sides of the bushing and eventually causes them to squeak.

I pulled the bushings back out of the dogbones and faced them down on my lathe until the installed width was the same as the sleeve length. I didn't want any side to side movement so I tried not to make them too narrow. I found that 3 of the 4 rear dogbone bushings were the same width as the sleeve or slightly narrower, but one was significantly wider. So I faced that one down too, so now my bushings are "blueprinted" :p. I don't know why the manufacturers make them wider than they need to be, but it could be the tolerance in the width of the dogbones which isn't tightly controlled.

After re-lubing everything and torquing the front bolts, the dogbones operate quite a bit more freely than before. I plan to do this with the lower front a-arms as well, to make sure they rotate freely. I think this problem is why some people don't like poly bushings and probably why they squeak so bad in some applications. You MUST lubricate the sides of the bushings too because they turn with the suspension movement.

[NickP]

It's a shame you didn't do a vid of the difference.

[chevynut]

Nick, the suspension isn't assembled so I don't know what I would have videoed unless I had a force gauge to measure the change in force. I wanted to get these set up right so I didn't have to take it all apart later. ;)

I just finished "blueprinting" the front lower front a-arm Polygraphite bushings. I found that the steel sleeves varied in length from 2.120" to 2.135" and the installed bushing width varied from 2.130 to 2.154". In fact, the GM a-arm bushing bosses varied in width from 1.690" to 1.707" on just two that I measured. This just shows how much this stuff can vary. In the worst case that's a "pinch" of .034" which I believe could have caused a lot of friction and possibly squeaks. Not sure how the graphite would have affected the squeaking, but with pure poly I'm sure they would have.

I cut all the bushings down so that the installed length matched the sleeve length for that location. Not sure why the sleeves varied so much in length, or if that's typical of all suppliers. I also found that the a-arm bushings were easier to cut since they seemed to be quite a bit harder, even though they were from the same supplier as the dogbone bushings.

I'm sure some would call this a waste of time, but I think it will make the suspension work better and more freely like it's supposed to. Also, I think this could have been done by sanding instead of cutting the bushings on a lathe, but the lathe made it easy and fast.

[WagonCrazy]

Thanks for reporting on your findings. I too have PST bushings to install and will take your comments to heart when I get to that point...

[chevynut]

Paul, I installed the lower a-arms and torqued the bolts and they still work very smoothly. IMO this is something well worth doing with Poly bushings. My upper a-arms may get the treatment, but only the rear upper a-arm bushing is in two halves. If necessary, I may shim the front nut/washer to free it up some since that bushing is one piece and can't be removed without destroying it.

[BamaNomad]

Chevynut... YOUR work on that Nomad is AMAZING... thru and thru.. but You HAVE to get the car painted and finished.. I cannot WAIT to see it finished.. it should be a worldbeater.. :)

[chevynut]

Thanks BamaNomad! :)

I started to put the shocks together and found that the spherical bearings I ordered had nylon/PTFE races....races, not just liners. I also wondered if I should use anti-sieze on the spring seat threads like some manufacturers require, so I called Aldan. It was one of the most frustrating conversations I've ever had with anyone's tech support.

First I asked why the pictures of their spherical bearings I bought (through Summit) were showing steel race bearings and why I got nylon/PTFE ordering that part number, and whether the nylon would support the loads of a BBC in a C4 front suspension with 600 lb/in springs. The guy said they could send me steel race bearings if I wanted them instead. I told him I was calling to get tech advice and I'd use the nylon ones if he could assure me they wouldn't disintegrate with 950 pounds per shock and he said he hasn't seen any problems with them. That was reassuring. :cry:

Then I asked if I should put anti-sieze on the body threads when I assembled the springs to the shocks and that some manufacturers require this or they void their warranty. He said if I needed to adjust the shocks up when I got the weight on them I should add some. Then he said I should adjust the shock height now, so I don't have to do it later when the shocks are on the car. I asked how I was supposed to determine exactly where the spring seat should be to get the exact ride height I wanted. He then said to just set it 1-1.5" up from the bottom :confused:. I told him my calculations estimated that's about where I needed to be, but I'd most likely need to adjust them when the car was finished. I don't see how I can add anti-sieze later with the spring in the way, but if I add it now it's going to attract dust and dirt. Never got a straight answer on that question.

I told him I was having issues with getting the spring seat on the shock because the 10" spring I bought was about 1/2" longer than the shock body. I was wondering if they had any tricks for preloading the spring to get the nut started. He said send the springs back and the would send me some 9" ones. The springs are actually QA-1 10" springs and I said going to 9" would possibly cause issues with travel and adjustability, maybe even coil bind. He said they should be no different than the 10" ones and I said they would be adjusted 1" higher and was concerned about running out of adjustment and that the spring rate would have to be different if the preload was less. He disagreed :confused:.

So, he asked me how much spring compression I expected and I said if I run the spring seat up 1 1/2" from free spring height and run the shock 1 1/2" compressed (about 40% of the stroke) I should have about 3" of total spring compression. Then he asked why I needed 3" of compression on a 600 lb/in spring and I told him because of the motion ratio and shock angle that's what my calculations showed. He said "that's 1800 pounds per spring or 3600 pounds on the front end alone" and I said yes it is but that's what it needs to be. He said there's no way my car weighs that much. I reiterated that it was because of the shock angle and motion ratio and that seemed to go over his head. And he's a shock tech. :confused:

Anyway, I went back to getting the spring seat installed and asked for advice on how to do it with my existing springs. He recommended that I get a longer seat so that's what I ordered. I didn't know they made them. :)

[NickP]

So you got a top cone rather than a flat top?

[chevynut]

So you got a top cone rather than a flat top?

Not sure what you mean but the Aldan shocks have more of a cone on top. I have just found out that QA-1's top spring retainer can cause problems and may stop recommending them. They do offer a different taller upper seat with more of a cone shape.

Here's my Aldans...same pic as above:

6588

Here's their new design..notice the concave shape of the top seat:

http://aldanamerican.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/657_02.jpg
Here's the QA-1 top seat:

http://static.speedwaymotors.com/RS/SR/Product/88/721485_L_1e56384a.jpg

[NickP]

I fail to see how the new top seats will assist in assembling the 10" springs. The height from where the spring seats to the top looks (an assumption) to be the same. And yes, the QA1 shocks do have the flatter top but also have a taller cone available within their catalog. A shorter or flatter one similar to the QA1 would facilitate your need (another assumption) better I would think. I have used both (QA1) in the past to adjust for issues as you have described.

[chevynut]

I got the front 30mm swaybar installed and I'm trying to figure out if the stock C4 swaybar links will work of if I have to fab new ones. I need to get the coilovers installed to check clearance to the springs.

However, after re-checking my coilover spring rate calculator I think I'm going to go with different front springs :(. I like to use the lowest spring rate that will support the car at the desired ride height because it gives the best ride quality with coilovers which typically have a relatively short stroke. Sure I can make it sit right with a much stiffer spring, but I don't want it to ride rough, just firm.

I made an adjustment in my calculator today (see my coilover thread) that changed the required spring rate on my car from 600 lb/in to quite a bit less than that. This is because I had been squaring the motion ratio when it should NOT be squared as I have been led to believe for a long time. I do want a firm suspension and have been told that a 225 lb/in wheel rate is pretty stiff, but the BBC might make it feel less stiff.

With the Torrington bearing and the spring seat and lock stacked up they're 11/16" thick. If I allow 1" of thread below the lock for downward adjustment, I get an installed spring length of 8 5/16". MY current 600 lb/in "10 inch" springs are 10.5" long but I think that's out of spec, so I'll assume the new ones are right at 10" long. My calculator now says I need 438 lb/in springs with 2 people in front, assuming I have predicted the car's front end weight correctly. So it looks like 450 lb/in should work and will result in a 267 lb/in wheel rate. With the new springs I may not need the new spring seats I just ordered, but I think having more threads contacting the body may be a good thing anyhow. Hopefully the new front shocks will just need tweaking with these new springs.

I won't know what I need to do in the rear until I get the car assembled. Standard spring calculations don't seem to work with an IRS or at least I haven't figured out how to do them yet. My spreadsheet has a "fudge factor" built in based on empirical data from ONE car and feedback from another, and that's what I've been using. Luckily it's fairly easy to change the rear springs as compared to the front.

[chevynut]

I fail to see how the new top seats will assist in assembling the 10" springs.

I'm getting new BOTTOM seats. They have longer threads. ;)
https://static.summitracing.com/global/images/prod/mediumlarge/aax-ald-12_ml.jpg

And yes, the QA1 shocks do have the flatter top but also have a taller cone available within their catalog.

I saw those. Can you order them when you order shocks or do you have to buy them after the fact?

[NickP]

OK. I assume the length of the thread has been increased to at least 3/4" in total then to accommodate the 1/2" length issue? You can order QA1 shocks with either but not online. It has to be specified in writing due to no option when ordering online unless they have changed it recently. With the addition of the thrust bearings (need to be lubed) will they help much?

[chevynut]

Nick, the current problem is the threads on the shorter spring seat won't reach the threads on the shock body. I had the springs on before without the thrust bearings but it's a hassle getting the spring compressed to start the threads. I have a spring compressor but it won't work on these small springs. So the longer spring seat seems like the best bet for me. I just ordered new 450 lb/in ALDAN springs instead of QA-1 (made in China) so maybe they'll fit with the shorter seat, but I think a longer seat is better anyhow with the larger thread area.

The thrust bearings don't need to be lubed, and I've also read that you SHOULD NOT lube them because that causes dirt to stick to them. I think they help a lot because they eliminate the friction between the seat and spring.

I could have sold a ton of shocks over the years to customers, so I may check with Aldan to see if I can become a dealer for them. QA-1 wanted $5000 up front to be a dealer. The Aldan shocks seem to be high quality and the length selection is pretty good.

[BamaNomad]

Chevynut... You mentioned that you wanted a 'good' but firm ride (I assumed this meant smoooth and quiet). Did you consider use of the stock C4 Corvette spring with selectable damping shocks?? I'd think that would give you the ride you want. If you used a front spring from a '90-95 ZR-1, it should work well with the big block you have (The LT5 weighs MORE than a big block)... I like the smooothness of the urethane springs, and that is what Billy Dawson uses in all his chassis.

[55 Rescue Dog]

I was initially attracted to the C4 conversion specifically because it could use the composite springs front and rear, which could be the better simple logical choice from what I'm seeing so far. You might get lucky calculating spring rates, but after you drive the car, no matter what spring you chose, you will be trying at least 2 or more springs to dial it in anyway. On my Camaro I started soft, (700 lbs) and have moved up 50lbs per inch on the 2nd set of springs from my initial guess so far. Test and try is the only way to get the closest. I would love to have a half dozen springs to try, along with shocks. It looks like there are many C4 traverse spring rates to choose from. They can be trimmed with spacers for ride height, and can use a lighter sway bar. The traverse front springs are not that hard to change with the factory spring compressor.

[BamaNomad]

I bought my '56 Nomad with QA1 coil overs already installed; my first experience with them. I have to say, that I have not spent ANY time at all trying to improve the setup, but I don't like them so far... noisy, popping - very far from what I'm looking for. I have two C4 ZR-1s, and I like the ride and handling; with the adjustable shocks they include, it allows 'tuning' of the ride from hard (perf), medium, to softer... I drove Billy Dawson's '55 sedan on one of his frames using the C4 setup with stock urethane springs and I thought it was by far the best riding/driving TriFive I've been in... so I immediately ordered one of his chassis.

[chevynut]

I drove Billy Dawson's '55 sedan on one of his frames using the C4 setup with stock urethane springs and I thought it was by far the best riding/driving TriFive I've been in... so I immediately ordered one of his chassis.

The advantage of the stock C4 transverse composite (fiberglass) springs is that they have quite a bit more preload on them than you can get with a typical coilover, resulting in a lower spring rate and therefore a lower wheel rate. It's like having a super-long stroke coilover with a lot of preload on it. That gives a softer ride if that's important to you.

According to a C4 spring rate chart I have the highest front wheel rate for a late C4 suspension is 176 lb/in (Z51) and the softest is 109 lb/in (FX3) which is about the same as a stock Tri5 front wheel rate. I think the latter is way too soft. Also, the wheel rate feels softer with a heavier car due to inertia.

I have some reservations about the published wheel rates because the late Z51 front spring rate is listed as 660 lb/in. I assume the spring rate is measured at the end of the spring using the unsupported length of the spring that hangs outboard of the spring clamps.That should theoretically give a wheel rate of 423 lb/in using the 12"/15" motion ratio and the spring actually sits further out than the shock mount. It's like having a coil spring sitting vertically in the a-arm spring pocket. So I'm not sure where they're getting the wheel rates from.

The disadvantage of the stock front transverse spring is you have very little height adjustment and that's accomplished by almost completely disassembling the front suspension and adding or removing shims between the spring and k-member. Each 1/8" shim you add or remove changes the ride height by about that same amount, which is very little. And there's a limit to how many you can remove (all of them) and how many you can add. So for example let's say you have a really light LS engine and have removed all of the shims and the car is still too high...what's your option? Conversely, let's say you add a BBC and the car still sits too low after you maxed out the shims with the stiffest spring....what's your option?

Coilovers allow you to adjust the height to get back to the design ride height very easily and quickly, while also allowing an easy way to change spring rate within limits. You can ALWAYS get the ride height you want with a coilover, and that may not be possible with the stock C4 spring. And some people just like the looks of the coilovers better than the stock spring.

In the rear ride height changes with the stock C4 spring are more easily made by lengthening or shortening the bolt at the end of the spring. However, the spring rate is limited but has a pretty wide range....the stiffest late C4 spring gives 191 lb/in wheel rate and the softest gives 103 lb/in. The stock tri5 leaf springs are 112 lb/in for the 4-leaf and either 126 or 138 lb/in for the 5-leaf springs. Early and late REAR springs are interchangeable.

I can't speak for the coilovers that are made for a stock tri5 front suspension because they are entirely different. The top of the spring sits in the frame spring pocket while the bottom sits on the spring seat. So the result is kind of a hybrid between a coilover and a stock coil spring.

IMO one of the advantages of our frames is that you can use EITHER coilovers or the stock C4 springs, depending on what you're looking for. If you can't get the ride height you want with the stock springs or don't like them for some reason, you can go to coilovers easily. Newman had NO OPTION for coilovers, and I don't believe Corvette Correction does either.

[chevynut]

You might get lucky calculating spring rates, but after you drive the car, no matter what spring you chose, you will be trying at least 2 or more springs to dial it in anyway. On my Camaro I started soft, (700 lbs) and have moved up 50lbs per inch on the 2nd set of springs from my initial guess so far. Test and try is the only way to get the closest.

That's because you have no clue how to calculate spring rates just like you have no clue how to calculate anything else. So you have to give in to trial and error...mostly error. Once you have the suspension parameters and weight, you can calculate spring rate and wheel rate fairly closely...it's called "engineering". Keep "guessing" and you might get close someday.

There are 5 different late C4 front springs to choose from, ranging from 343 to 660 lb/in. But those spring rates are applied much differently than they would be using a coilover. So you can't compare them directly.

[chevynut]

I have two C4 ZR-1s, and I like the ride and handling;

It's interesting that the late ZR1 front spring is 550 lb/in (90 & 91) and 431 lb/in (92-95). The rear ZR-1 springs are 228 lb/in (90 & 91) and 189 lb/in (92-95) Which one do you have?

In the rear I would think the motion ratio is 1, since the spring is attached directly to the knuckle. But I have customers who say they need a stiffer spring than the calculations say should work. So there must be something going on that I have not yet figured out. The spring chart I have implies the rear motion ratio is 1.21.

In the front, there is a motion ratio. The spring pocket is in the a-arm and I think the center of the spring contact pad is close to where the shock mount is. So the motion ratio should be around 1.25. There is no other factor that I'm aware of so the front wheel rates for the ZR-1s should be 352 lb/in and 276 lb/in. Unless I'm missing something. :confused:

[55 Rescue Dog]

That's because you have no clue how to calculate spring rates just like you have no clue how to calculate anything else. So you have to give in to trial and error...mostly error. Once you have the suspension parameters and weight, you can calculate spring rate and wheel rate fairly closely...it's called "engineering". Keep "guessing" and you might get close someday.

There are 5 different late C4 front springs to choose from, ranging from 343 to 660 lb/in. But those spring rates are applied much differently than they would be using a coilover. So you can't compare them directly.
It would be great if calculations worked perfect for spring rates with all the variables, including driver feel. If GM has the resources to calculate spring rate correctly, why did they use so many different spring rates? It's a good thing they couldn't nail it either, or there would only be one spring to choose from. I don't know, but would wheel offset have an effect on the ratio too?

[BamaNomad]

I have two now, and had a third but sold it due to it's being 'black/black' (too hot in the summer). All three have been the *first year* 1990, which I prefer over the later cars - they got a little heavier each year.. and slower... :)

[QUOTE=chevynut

The disadvantage of the stock front transverse spring is you have very little height adjustment and that's accomplished by almost completely disassembling the front suspension and adding or removing shims between the spring and k-member. Each 1/8" shim you add or remove changes the ride height by about that same amount, which is very little. And there's a limit to how many you can remove (all of them) and how many you can add. So for example let's say you have a really light LS engine and have removed all of the shims and the car is still too high...what's your option? Conversely, let's say you add a BBC and the car still sits too low after you maxed out the shims with the stiffest spring....what's your option?

Coilovers allow you to adjust the height to get back to the design ride height very easily and quickly, while also allowing an easy way to change spring rate within limits. You can ALWAYS get the ride height you want with a coilover, and that may not be possible with the stock C4 spring. And some people just like the looks of the coilovers better than the stock spring.

In the rear ride height changes with the stock C4 spring are more easily made by lengthening or shortening the bolt at the end of the spring. However, the spring rate is limited but has a pretty wide range....the stiffest late C4 spring gives 191 lb/in wheel rate and the softest gives 103 lb/in. The stock tri5 leaf springs are 112 lb/in for the 4-leaf and either 126 or 138 lb/in for the 5-leaf springs. Early and late REAR springs are interchangeable.

I can't speak for the coilovers that are made for a stock tri5 front suspension because they are entirely different. The top of the spring sits in the frame spring pocket while the bottom sits on the spring seat. So the result is kind of a hybrid between a coilover and a stock coil spring.

IMO one of the advantages of our frames is that you can use EITHER coilovers or the stock C4 springs, depending on what you're looking for. If you can't get the ride height you want with the stock springs or don't like them for some reason, you can go to coilovers easily. Newman had NO OPTION for coilovers, and I don't believe Corvette Correction does either.


I can't argue with the above...

I thought I would 'like the QA1 coil overs installed on my '56 before I drove it much (probably due to the looks), but I don't like the action and noise in use (but again, I haven't tried to make any adjustments to improve any of this)...

I like the rear adjustability of the C4 suspension, but you are right on the points you made... esp re the front.

You're right about Corvette Correction not offering coil overs, they only offer the stock C4 springs (but give you an option as to which one). I can't say about Newman for certain, but I think you are right about them as well.

Oh.. :) and a HAPPY THANKSGIVING DAY to everyone here!

[chevynut]

Chevynut... You mentioned that you wanted a 'good' but firm ride (I assumed this meant smoooth and quiet). Did you consider use of the stock C4 Corvette spring with selectable damping shocks?? I'd think that would give you the ride you want. If you used a front spring from a '90-95 ZR-1, it should work well with the big block you have (The LT5 weighs MORE than a big block)... I like the smooothness of the urethane springs, and that is what Billy Dawson uses in all his chassis.

BamaNomad, I had thought about using the stock C4 springs but didn't want to hassle with trying to get the ride height where I wanted it. There is also a limit to the spring rates available, but one of them would probably work for my application. However, I like the fact that I don't have to screw with the shims under the front spring and changing a coilover spring is easier to do than changing the C4 spring. Turning a nut is a lot easier to tweak the ride height where I want it. I am leaving the stock leaf spring mounts on the C4 rear so I could go back to a leaf spring if I ever wanted to.

The bottom line is that if you get the same wheel rate with whatever spring you choose, the ride should be identical. The stock spring does provide some anti-roll but I can deal with that with a large swaybar. And this isn't a race car anyhow, I just want it to perform well.

It's interesting that a lot of C4 owners go to coilovers and ditch the stock springs...I wonder why that is? Also I know of no other sports car or super car using a composite leaf spring, instead they use coilovers. If the composite spring was so good, don't you think Porsche, Ferrari, Lamborghini, and others would be using them? :)

[55 Rescue Dog]

What about the C7 Z 06? Maybe it will change on the C8. Less un-sprung weight too. Although it's not pretty, a rear leaf would make perfect sense. Is it possible to narrow a composite spring?

[chevynut]

It would be great if calculations worked perfect for spring rates with all the variables, including driver feel. If GM has the resources to calculate spring rate correctly, why did they use so many different spring rates? It's a good thing they couldn't nail it either, or there would only be one spring to choose from. I don't know, but would wheel offset have an effect on the ratio too?

You and your "driver feel" BS.:D That has nothing to do with the calculations and you can't do anything you want with springs, whether stock or coilover. The calculations are to select the right spring for the suspension parameters you input, to support the car at the correct ride height and to determine the wheel rate. If the preload is higher, you can use a lighter spring...if it's lower, you can use a stiffer spring. All of that is within some limited range. You can't use a spring that's too light to hold the car at ride height with the nut at the top of it's travel. However, on the stiff side you can use as stiff of a spring as you want. In fact, you could use a solid cylinder around the shock if you wanted to.

The calculations get you into the right range for proper shock operation. Adjusting from there for "driver feel" is subjective. If you want a stiffer suspension, it's easy to select a stiffer spring. The adjuster nut would just have to be lowered from where it was in the initial calculations. It's not "magic" if you understand what's going on.....it's simply physics and math.

Wheel offset has nothing to do with motion ratio.

[55 Rescue Dog]

Until you know the all the corner weights, and un-sprung weights of a completed car, it's still a guess. Why not use your existing springs for a baseline. Then change them after the car has been scaled. I'm simply going to start by trying to match the front end weight of the 55 to the same as a stock C4, and that should get me really close, then go from there. I've been looking for a good excuse to get a set of wheel scales anyway, other than the $1000 part.

[NickP]

I've been looking for a good excuse to get a set of wheel scales anyway, other than the $1000 part.

Whaaaaaaaaaaat, I thought every respectable hotrodder had a full set of scales. I'm appalled.

[chevynut]

What about the C7 Z 06? Maybe it will change on the C8. Less un-sprung weight too. Although it's not pretty, a rear leaf would make perfect sense. Is it possible to narrow a composite spring?

The C7 uses a composite spring as well. The C8 may end up being a mid-engine corvette, or two different cars altogether. That's the rumor. I expect the low-end C8 to use the C7 suspensions.

I don't know how you'd narrow a composite spring but perhaps it's possible to do. That's one of the other reasons I went to coilovers in the rear. If I were to go back to a leaf spring, I'd have to find or make one. They do offer composite springs for a C3 and the width may be close enough if it fit otherwise. A guy could probably cut the ends off of a C4 spring and slip on some other fabricated end. It would have a slightly higher spring rate.

[chevynut]

Until you know the all the corner weights, and un-sprung weights of a completed car, it's still a guess.

My spring rate calculator estimates all the corner weights and I believe it's pretty accurate. I take a stock car with the stock weight distribution per GM. I input the body style and it automatically puts the factory weight in. Then I remove the engine and tranny and re-calculate the weight and weight distribution of the body and frame. Then I add back the new engine using the correct weight and the new tranny. I correct for the weight of the C4 suspension, add the estimated weight of the accessories, and arrive at the estimated new car weight. It's not exact, but it's pretty close.

I checked the calculator on a car that was actually weighed after the build, by putting the correct engine and tranny in along with my estimate of the weight of his accessories and other additions. My calculator was within 33 pounds overall and within 2 pounds in front, 31 pounds in the rear. I didn't correct for his larger stainless steel tank in the rear and the added fuel in it. So I think it's pretty damn close :). That was a Nomad, and I haven't checked the weight of a sedan or hardtop but it does come out a bit less so I think that's close too. GM puts the difference at 200 pounds.


Why not use your existing springs for a baseline. Then change them after the car has been scaled.

Two reasons. First, the calculator was put together to help me select a spring for my customers...they don't have a baseline spring. I believe I can get them within 1 spring rate of what they will need, if the one I select isn't exactly right for their needs. I try to get them the lightest spring that will work, if they're looking for the smoothest ride. Secondly, on my car I don't necessarily want to take the car apart when it's all assembled. So I want to try to get it as close as I can now. The new 450 lb/in Aldan springs were $100 shipped and I'm sure I can sell the 600 lb/in springs if I don't need them. If the 450 lb/in springs turn out to be wrong I can adjust from there. I don't need to use scales at that point, the springs tell me what I need to do.


I'm simply going to start by trying to match the front end weight of the 55 to the same as a stock C4, and that should get me really close, then go from there.

I would think the C4 weight distribution is different with the setback engine and the wheelbase is much shorter. Plus, how are you going to select a spring rate needed even if you know the weight? Aren't all C4s essentially the same weight, but use different springs? There's only a handful of them available, and you still need to calculate what rate will work. Then you have to shim it correctly for ride height. I know Newman had issues with getting the height right on his cars and I once saw an adjustable front spring that he offered....for $600.

A spring serves ONLY one function...that is to resist the compression of the suspension and hold the car at the proper ride height (no, that's not two functions). The only "driver feel" you can change is the stiffness of that spring and depending on the spring construction and adjustability it will change ride height as you change stiffness. You can easily make it stiffer, but you can't make it lighter beyond a certain point or it won't support the car at ride height. The "driver feel" comes from adjustments to shock damping, swaybar stiffness, and tires as well as suspension geometry and steering.

If you want to keep discussing this "generic" spring or suspension stuff or spring calculations, please move the comments to the coilover spring rate calculation thread (link below) so this one stays on topic, which is my chassis build. Feel free to comment on my specific application if you want, but I'll delete any other generic posts to avoid further clutter here. Thanks for your understanding.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/showthread.php/4821-Coilover-spring-rate-calculations

[chevynut]

Since I narrowed my C4 rear I need to decide what to do with my lower strut rods. I had cut some stock ones down and TIG welded them back together, but I decided I prefer a better way to adjust camber than the stock eccentric bolt. A threaded rod with rod ends seems like a good way to do it and I have made some custom inboard brackets based on the late C4 design for that purpose.

The strut rod ends are NOT straight, since the inboard end is around 1" forward of the outboard end. So how are they making these?


https://www.vansteel.com/_custom/partimages/SR-206-4502.jpg

http://image.mamotorworksmedia.com/imageproc.aspx?img=%7E/production/website/sku/602/602900/602900-%281%29.jpg&h=369&w=369

The lower ones appear to be angled....

http://www.digitalcorvettes.com/corvette-photos/data/747/matched_ends.jpg

I have a hard time believing someone makes these ends just for the C4 strut rods but maybe the welded ones are. I've seen the forged ones for sale with 7 degree and 11 degree offsets but I don't think that's the right angle. Do you think they're custom bending them for the Vansteel parts?

[NickP]

In reviewing the GM drawing, I get near 2.6° on the camber bars but I'll knowbetter when the units I have purchased (stock) arrive and I can do some proper dimensioning. As a note, I'm about a week away from finalizing somebillet Dogbones and Camber Bars. Shortening the camber program for theCNC would be easy. Now that Newman no longer supplies them and dependingupon cost, I may attempt to market them. Bearings will be proprietary as will race material. Also, the GM drawing lends it self to indicate that the offset from hub centerline to ring gear centerline is .77" But, that's open to discussion as anything is.

[chevynut]

Thanks for the info Nick. If the stock angle is 5 degrees, my narrowed rear would be a bit steeper.

I guess I have a hard time seeing where 5 degrees is coming from though. If the fore-aft offset is .77" and the strut rod length is 18.375" that comes out to 2.4 degrees per my calculations. Even if I take off 1" at each end for the straight section, I still only get 2.7 degrees. How are you measuring the angle and why are my calculations so different? I may have to just measure one. ;)

You might find there's a decent market out there for your parts if the cost is right. I thought Newman's were way too expensive and the steel bearings and races weren't a good choice except for a track car, imo.

[NickP]

LOL, I was looking at the toe bar dimensions. I corrected the above.