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Bluegrass Trifive
10-18-2015, 05:01 PM
Today I started cleaning up the Danna 44 diff for my 57. New seals, blast and paint the rusty parts, check for wear and bad bearings. The axle shaft snap rings sure are a pain in the ass to get out! 5127 5128

chevynut
10-18-2015, 06:42 PM
Bluegrass, please post more as you rebuild the diff....I'll probably be doing the same before long. I have one with 4.10 Viper gears I want to go through.

Bluegrass Trifive
10-19-2015, 06:29 PM
Bluegrass, please post more as you rebuild the diff....I'll probably be doing the same before long. I have one with 4.10 Viper gears I want to go through. Will do Cnut, It'll be a week or two as I've got some business traveling to do and I've got to fab up some special tools. It takes a case spreader to get the carrier assy out of the case and an axle gear spreader to relieve the pressure from the Bellville washers behind them to get the spider gears out. I have a Dana manual that seems to be pretty good I'll send you that too. Don't forget to send me your address and I'll send you the rack fittings. You want them coated? Black?

chevynut
10-19-2015, 08:41 PM
I have a Dana manual that seems to be pretty good I'll send you that too. Don't forget to send me your address and I'll send you the rack fittings. You want them coated? Black?

Thanks Bluegrass. Will PM my address. Are the fittings steel? If they're plated that should be fine.

Bluegrass Trifive
10-20-2015, 05:07 AM
Thanks Bluegrass. Will PM my address. Are the fittings steel? If they're plated that should be fine. They are steel and plated but where I turned the OD and faced the length the plating is gone and they would rust. I'll coat those areas silver and if you don't like you can change.

markm
10-20-2015, 06:03 AM
Is a case spreader necessary on a Vette 44, I have never used one on my front axle in my 72 Blazer or for that matter my Dana 60 Camaros or 55. Is the axle gear spreader necessary because of the locker. I have only worked on open Dana's or those with the four pinion bolt together Power-Lock.

Bluegrass Trifive
10-20-2015, 09:46 AM
Is a case spreader necessary on a Vette 44, I have never used one on my front axle in my 72 Blazer or for that matter my Dana 60 Camaros or 55. Is the axle gear spreader necessary because of the locker. I have only worked on open Dana's or those with the four pinion bolt together Power-Lock. I honestly don't know if the case spreader is necessary are not as I've never done one before. From reading around on some of the Vette forums it seems to be needed and is simple to fab up so I plan to make. The axle gear spreader is required for sure to collapse the spring washers to remove the spider gears and then the axle gears and friction discs. I think a simple device fabbed from a piece of all thread will work. I'll post pictures as I begin the dis-assy.

markm
10-20-2015, 10:52 AM
Fun part of a Dana is where they put the side shims.

Bluegrass Trifive
10-20-2015, 11:12 AM
Fun part of a Dana is where they put the side shims. They're great aren't they? I've only done one Dana before and it was a spool. I've mostly done 9" Fords which are considerably simpler!

chevynut
10-20-2015, 12:13 PM
I don't recall ever rebuilding a differential in my entire life. I've taken them apart, but never put one together. I like how the stock tri5 differential has adjusters on the side of the bearing caps to adjust backlash, instead of shimming. Seems like backlash is not difficult to adjust, but I don't have a good understanding of how to set pinion depth and the whole "crush sleeve" stuff. Why do they use a crush sleeve anyhow?

markm
10-20-2015, 01:03 PM
Why do they use a crush sleeve anyhow? Faster and cheaper than shimming like a Dana. Many rears have kits available to delete the crush, I deleted the crush on my 9.3 Olds, it also has adjusters on side caps like 55-57 Chevy.

Rick_L
10-20-2015, 05:01 PM
As markm said, a case spreader is kind of a luxury. Big pry bars and determination usually work just fine. Not something I've done multiple times, but I've seen many do it at the drag strip with the housing under the car.

The crush sleeve is a factory part used for settting pinion bearing preload without the need for shims. You torque the pinion nut and crush the sleeve until you get the specified friction drag when turning the pinion shaft with the proper small torque wrench. The problem with a crush sleeve is if you go too far you have to take everything apart and start over with another new crush sleeve. You can usually replace the front seal without replacing the crush sleeve. There are spacers and shims for 9" Fords and some other 3rd members that eliminate the crush sleeve. You put the pinion in with too many shims or the spacer being long and take an end play measurement, then remove shims or shorten the spacer based on the end play. All this is complicated by the shim adjustment required for pinion depth, which is needed to make the gears mesh properly. It's an interactive process, except on a Ford 9" which has a separate pinion housing where the shims go on the housing rather than behind the pinion bearing. That's one reason the Ford 9" is preferred by racers - building a Ford 9" 3rd member can be done anywhere and is more of a finesse deal. I've changed gear ratios in a Ford 9" third member at the track a few times, it's the easiest there is. (And before markm goes on his next rant about Ford traction lock units, this was a spool, track only stuff.)

Bluegrass Trifive
10-20-2015, 07:23 PM
As markm said, a case spreader is kind of a luxury. Big pry bars and determination usually work just fine. Not something I've done multiple times, but I've seen many do it at the drag strip with the housing under the car.

The crush sleeve is a factory part used for settting pinion bearing preload without the need for shims. You torque the pinion nut and crush the sleeve until you get the specified friction drag when turning the pinion shaft with the proper small torque wrench. The problem with a crush sleeve is if you go too far you have to take everything apart and start over with another new crush sleeve. You can usually replace the front seal without replacing the crush sleeve. There are spacers and shims for 9" Fords and some other 3rd members that eliminate the crush sleeve. You put the pinion in with too many shims or the spacer being long and take an end play measurement, then remove shims or shorten the spacer based on the end play. All this is complicated by the shim adjustment required for pinion depth, which is needed to make the gears mesh properly. It's an interactive process, except on a Ford 9" which has a separate pinion housing where the shims go on the housing rather than behind the pinion bearing. That's one reason the Ford 9" is preferred by racers - building a Ford 9" 3rd member can be done anywhere and is more of a finesse deal. I've changed gear ratios in a Ford 9" third member at the track a few times, it's the easiest there is. (And before markm goes on his next rant about Ford traction lock units, this was a spool, track only stuff.) The one Dana that I did years ago was a steel case and I did do it without a spreader. It wasn't that difficult and in fact didn't have a crush sleeve it had a spacer which I had to machine to get the turning torque correct. I ground it in a v-block on a surface grinder. I'm not sure but I think it might have been either a Strange or Summers unit. The C4-44 aluminum case in my opinion is a bit of a different animal. The Dana manual is pretty clear about not spreading it more than .015 while using an indicator to confirm. I can only assume they have a reason for that spec as they note the possibility of distortion damage to the housing. Since its a pretty expensive piece I'll fab up a spreader. $20 worth of 1.5" flat stock and some shop time and I'll be ready to go. I agree the 9" Ford design will spoil you.

markm
10-21-2015, 06:26 AM
The one Dana that I did years ago was a steel case and I did do it without a spreader. It wasn't that difficult and in fact didn't have a crush sleeve it had a spacer which I had to machine to get the turning torque correct. I ground it in a v-block on a surface grinder. I'm not sure but I think it might have been either a Strange or Summers unit. The C4-44 aluminum case in my opinion is a bit of a different animal. The Dana manual is pretty clear about not spreading it more than .015 while using an indicator to confirm. I can only assume they have a reason for that spec as they note the possibility of distortion damage to the housing. Since its a pretty expensive piece I'll fab up a spreader. $20 worth of 1.5" flat stock and some shop time and I'll be ready to go. I agree the 9" Ford design will spoil you.

I am surprised at your comments about the spacer, I have always had to add .002, .003 shims etc. with the spacer. FYI Rick my 9.3 Olds with Fabcraft spacer for Crush was the easiest rear I ever put together. I really do not mind 10 or 12 bolts either.

Rick_L
10-21-2015, 09:53 AM
Some do the spacer too short and add the shims. Some do it long and require machining to length. If you don't have a lathe handy the shims would be preferred.

Bluegrass Trifive
10-21-2015, 10:04 AM
I am surprised at your comments about the spacer, I have always had to add .002, .003 shims etc. with the spacer. FYI Rick my 9.3 Olds with Fabcraft spacer for Crush was the easiest rear I ever put together. I really do not mind 10 or 12 bolts either. The Dana I built (15 years ago) was the only one I've ever done and all the components were new except for the housing. I can't really comment on weather it was normal to cut the spacer or not. I would assume it was designed to be slightly long and machine to length. I do remember the owner saying the spacer was ordered in place of a crush sleeve.

chevynut
10-21-2015, 10:52 AM
So isn't the crush sleeve just a spacer? I guess I'm having a hard time visualizing how this actually works. Seems to me that if it crushes, the pinion depth changes and you need to shim anyhow. The good thing is it looks like they're cheap. :)

I have to replace the pinion yoke on my D44 with a 1350 yoke so I need to go through all of this to set it all up correctly. I have two complete 3.45 and 4.10 Dana 44HD differentials and two new sets of 3.73 and 4.10 gears. I guess I need to revisit my gear ratios to see which I really want to use. As I understand it the Viper 4.10 gears can be used with the 3-series case since the ring gear is the thicker type. I'm certain the Vipers used the same carrier as the C4 Corvettes and they also used the 4.10 gears.

I'll be following this rebuild...please post lots of details.

Bluegrass Trifive
10-21-2015, 11:23 AM
So isn't the crush sleeve just a spacer? I guess I'm having a hard time visualizing how this actually works. Seems to me that if it crushes, the pinion depth changes and you need to shim anyhow. The good thing is it looks like they're cheap. :)

I have to replace the pinion yoke on my D44 with a 1350 yoke so I need to go through all of this to set it all up correctly. I have two complete 3.45 and 4.10 Dana 44HD differentials and two new sets of 3.73 and 4.10 gears. I guess I need to revisit my gear ratios to see which I really want to use. As I understand it the Viper 4.10 gears can be used with the 3-series case since the ring gear is the thicker type. I'm certain the Vipers used the same carrier as the C4 Corvettes and they also used the 4.10 gears.

I'll be following this rebuild...please post lots of details. In my opinion the crush sleeve is utilized on a production line to reduce cost of equipment required. They basically spin the pinion nut down with a nutrunner, set to the required torque to crush, confirm the rotation torque and adjust as required all with one device. The equipment requirements to install, measure, remove, add shim, re-install, re-measure etc. would be greatly more expensive. I will post pictures as I go through the process of overhaul on mine.

markm
10-21-2015, 11:27 AM
Not a spacer it provides for preload on bearings.

chevynut
10-21-2015, 11:35 AM
Is there a tutorial anywhere online that shows how to shim the pinion? So it sounds like the crush sleeve really doesn't "crush" that much, and just acts like a spring to keep load on the tapered bearings. I thought the pinion depth would change when it "crushed", wouldn't it?

chevynut
10-21-2015, 11:37 AM
Just found this....it may help:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/9375619/Yukon-Dana-Ring-Pinion-Installation

Bluegrass Trifive
10-21-2015, 01:52 PM
Just found this....it may help:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/9375619/Yukon-Dana-Ring-Pinion-Installation

https://www.yukongear.com/.../Yukon_General_Installation_Instructions This one on page 10 talks about the non crush version. But just a comment, the C4 44 is a crush version so I wouldn't get too hung up on the workings of the non crush version. I have some pdf documents of the set up for the c4 44 if I can figure out how to upload here I'll post them.

chevynut
10-21-2015, 03:20 PM
I think I get it now....the crush sleeve doesn't affect pinion depth. It's between the two bearings and the shims are between the pinion gear and the inner bearing, so it doesn't move when the crush sleeve crushes. I'm learning. ;)

Bluegrass Trifive
10-21-2015, 03:54 PM
I think I get it now....the crush sleeve doesn't affect pinion depth. It's between the two bearings and the shims are between the pinion gear and the inner bearing, so it doesn't move when the crush sleeve crushes. I'm learning. ;)

You're catching on quickly! Finally it's all pretty simple once you get them apart. Just need some special tools and uncommon parts sometimes.

chevynut
11-09-2015, 10:03 AM
Hey Bluegrass, have you gotten anywhere on that D44 rebuild? I looked through my stuff and found out I have a set of new Timken pinion bearings and races, a new pinion seal, crush sleeve, ring gear bolts, shim pack, pinion yoke nut and washer. I just ordered new Timken carrier side bearings and races.

My diff has been gone through at some point because it has 4.11 gears in it. I don't know how many miles are on it nor whether they replaced the bearings at that time. So I guess the safe way is to replace them now. I will replace the side yoke seals but I don't know if I need to replace the axle needle bearings or not.

How do you tell if the clutches are any good? A guy could just replace everything in there but I wonder if it's really necessary.

Did you get the snap rings off of the side yokes? I broke my snap ring plier tip inserts trying to do that. :cry:

NickP
11-10-2015, 06:53 AM
How do you tell if the clutches are any good? A guy could just replace everything in there but I wonder if it's really necessary.

Did you get the snap rings off of the side yokes? I broke my snap ring plier tip inserts trying to do that. :cry:

What, if any, detail does the GM manual have regarding this great question? I have a full set but have never looked and now, they're in a storage container way in the back with all of the creepy crawlers.

markm
11-10-2015, 07:27 AM
What, if any, detail does the GM manual have regarding this great question? I have a full set but have never looked and now, they're in a storage container way in the back with all of the creepy crawlers.

Pretty good info in the early manuals, I have used my 70 pass. and 72 Truck manuals on numerous diff. rebuilds.

chevynut
11-10-2015, 07:56 AM
Here's a Spicer Dana 44 IRS manual:

http://www2.dana.com/pdf/5323.pdf

For clutch packs it says "if any one member of either stack shows excessive wear or scoring the complete stack is to be replaced on both sides."

They don't tell you what "excessive wear" is. I decided to just replace them and bought a brand new set of Spicer clutches off eBay for $56 .

NickP
11-10-2015, 09:04 AM
Hence my question regarding the GM Manual specific to your issue/question. As I recall, relative to other wear dimensions, the manuals are very specific. If need be, I can venture into the depth of my storage and get he manual for a reference guide.

chevynut
11-10-2015, 09:21 AM
Nick, the manual I linked above simply says to replace all the bearings regardless, and other parts that are excessively worn. It's a Spicer manual, not GM. I didn't know GM had any manuals for this stuff. At this point I have everything I need to rebuild the differential with new bearings, clutch plates, seals, etc. except side yoke bearings and seals. I will replace the seals, not sure about the bearings until I disassemble it.

chevynut
11-10-2015, 11:33 AM
I finally got those damned clips off the side yokes. I broke one set of my snap ring plier tips, then I bought another set of snap ring pliers that wouldn't open up wide enough, and finally had to grind a set of tips for my original pliers to make then work. What a pain. :(

NickP
11-10-2015, 12:48 PM
I just went to the storage and looked at the manual - says pretty much the same thing - no spec.

chevynut
11-10-2015, 04:12 PM
Well I have an empty case now. ;) I didn't need a spreader and the carrier came right out of the case. I think it may have been looser than it should have been either from bearing wear or too little shimming. I think I'm going to rebuild the carrier with new clutches and bearings, install the ring gear, clean up the case, and let someone else set it all up for me if I can find someone to do it. I can work on polishing the batwing while they do that. :)

Bluegrass Trifive
11-18-2015, 06:15 PM
Well I have an empty case now. ;) I didn't need a spreader and the carrier came right out of the case. I think it may have been looser than it should have been either from bearing wear or too little shimming. I think I'm going to rebuild the carrier with new clutches and bearings, install the ring gear, clean up the case, and let someone else set it all up for me if I can find someone to do it. I can work on polishing the batwing while they do that. :) How's your diff coming C-nut did you get it finished yet ? I've been on a business trip and just saw you progress update. Rack fittings headed your way Friday and I have some Dana info that I'll copy and send your way too. Sorry to take so long to respond.

chevynut
11-18-2015, 08:08 PM
Hi Bluegrass. My carrier is rebuilt with new clutches, the new ring gear is installed, and the case is cleaned and sanded and ready for primer which I just got in the mail today. I have new bearings for the carrier and pinion, a new crush sleeve, pinion seal, and nut. I shop a friend of mine owns is going to set up the ring and pinion for me for $250. I think I could do this myself, but it would probably take me a day and I don't want to mess with it. They've done these before and know how to do it.

I have the batwing sanded and ready for polishing and painting. I plan to coat all of my polished parts with Cerakote so I need to get that ordered soon.