10% Ethanol mess

[Rick_L]

A bit OT because it's not a 55-57, but this can happen to any car.

My "other" car is a 67 Nova SS that I updated a bit in the late 90s. Nice original rust free sheet metal, repainted it back then, and put a mild 350 backed by a 200-4R. It's starting to need another freshen up, needs paint (90s paint was lacquer and has aged) and interior, but it's not all that bad. I haven't driven it much over the last 2-3 years.

The last time I tried to drive it, it started and ran but ran badly. Never even got away from the house, it was a big effort just to get it back in the garage. That was a few months ago.

This week I took the carb off and took it apart. It's an Edelbrock 1405. Needle and seats were stuck closed, no fuel in the bowls at all. The floats had big black deposits on them and the bottom of the float bowls did too. Everything else was coated with an awful varnish.

I've never seen anything like this. What a mess!

Looks like it will clean up though. It's probably a better carb to have this happen to than a Holley because of the way it's made - easier to clean than Holley metering plates. I hope the rest of the fuel system is OK.

Advice to self and anyone else. Start and run these things often if they are in "storage". I guess a fuel additive like Stabil is a good idea too.

Too bad I can't buy fuel that doesn't have ethanol in it anywhere near local. Using the premixed non-ethanol fuel in my 2 stroke stuff has really helped there.

[chevynut]

Advice to self and anyone else. Start and run these things often if they are in "storage". I guess a fuel additive like Stabil is a good idea too.

Too bad I can't buy fuel that doesn't have ethanol in it anywhere near local. Using the premixed non-ethanol fuel in my 2 stroke stuff has really helped there.

I don't understand why some of you guys have so much trouble with ethanol fuel. Is it the humidity? I use it in my chainsaw, trimmer, blower, and ATVs and I don't use fuel stabilizer or drain them in the winter. I haven't had any problems at all. One of my ATVs is a 2000 and I've owned it since around 2005 or so. It starts right up after a winter of sitting. I took the carb apart over a year ago and rebuilt it....it was pretty clean inside and all I really needed was a new o-ring at the manifold to head.

[WagonCrazy]

Same dried varnish issues in my Edelbrock 1406 carb about a year ago too. Evaporation while parked for long periods of time in hot weather. The ethanol seems to be tearing up the rubber in the throttle plunger dohicky too...I've changed that out 3 times in 8 years now. (there's another name for that carb component, and it slips me at the moment what it's called).

[chevynut]

Same dried varnish issues in my Edelbrock 1406 carb about a year ago too. Evaporation while parked for long periods of time in hot weather. The ethanol seems to be tearing up the rubber in the throttle plunger dohicky too...I've changed that out 3 times in 8 years now. (there's another name for that carb component, and it slips me at the moment what it's called).

Seems to me that's Edelbrock's issue, not a fuel problem. We've had ethanol in our gas for years and they should be using compatible materials, because they DO exist. If they keep selling rubber parts that disintegrate in ethanol, I'd quit buying their parts and carbs. ;)

[Olderthandirt]

My sons 944 Porsche has gone through three fuel pumps. He replaces it starts & runs it for about 1/2 hour lets the car sit for a couple of years, tries to start it & pump is junk. Sitting fuel just kills it. This year he drain the fuel to see if it will last.

[markm]

I replayed to this last night, were did it go.

[chevynut]

My sons 944 Porsche has gone through three fuel pumps. He replaces it starts & runs it for about 1/2 hour lets the car sit for a couple of years, tries to start it & pump is junk. Sitting fuel just kills it. This year he drain the fuel to see if it will last.

I'm not sure that has anything to do with the ethanol, but it might if he gets water in the bottom of his tank. We have at least one gas station in town that still sells 91 octane ethanol-free gas. I've seen no need for it as my cars all run great on the 10% ethanol. I have a Porsche Boxster S that sits all winter, and I've never had any fuel-related problems with it. I start it once in a while just to lube things up during the winter, and it's stored indoors.

Is stuff like Stabil works to keep the ethanol from causing problems, why doesn't everyone use it? I can't see how it could prevent the rubber from being attacked, though. To me that's a poor choice of material. I think Viton is pretty much impervious to most chemicals.

[Rick_L]

There's no doubt in my mind that the formulation for 90/10 fuel is different in your location (Colorado high plains) than the formulation in my area (gulf coast). The vapor pressure curve for both summer and winter fuel has to be very different.

But I think this makes little difference if you let this crap evaporate totally out of the fuel bowls. Maybe humidity makes a small difference, as I'm sure the average water content in the atmosphere is probably 5-10 times, maybe more, in Houston relative to Colorado. What I'm seeing is what appears to me to be something that's water related.

And this is what I did - I let it all evaporate. And I know better. I'm just commenting on the results.

I think the biggest deal besides the nasty looking deposits (which in reality may be cosmetic), was the needle/seat sticking closed.

Cnut, do you even own a car with a carb?

[chevynut]

Cnut, do you even own a car with a carb?

My 57 4-door has a carb but I've never driven it. It's a driver and a friend of mine drove it to my son's house and it's sat in his barn for years now. I plan to sell it soon. My 56 2-door sedan has a carb, but again I've never driven it. I bought it and pulled it into my garage and it's sat there for years. The other 56 is a parts car, but it supposedly runs (never tried to start it) and it has a carb. And as you know, my Nomad is EFI as well as my truck and Porsche. My CJ3B is going to probably have a 4.3 EFI Chevy V6 in it to replace the carbed 4-cylinder I pullled out of it.

I probably never will own one of those antiquated things again unless I buy or build a restored muscle car. To me they're like a vacuum tube TV...they work, but not very well. The last vehicle I owned with a carb that I actually drove for transportation was an 85 Bronco II I had in the late 80's and early 90's. They went to EFI in 86. My mower and other lawn equipment and chainsaw have carbs. I wish my ATVs were EFI but they have carbs too....I hate them, but they work okay most of the time. When I rebuilt the carb on my Big Bear 400 the needle and seat STARTED sticking closed now and then. I never had that problem before I rebuilt it. As I said I've never had any issues with anything that I could say were ethanol related...except a hangover. :) :)

[Rick_L]

Cnut, FU.

[chevynut]

What crawled up your ass and died today :)? You have an issue with me hating carburetors for some reason? LMAO!!!

You asked a question and I answered it. Chill out, dude. ;)

[WagonCrazy]

I'm laughing at Rick's comment too.
I too am done with carbs...
Any more cars I build will be EFI and I'm looking forward to learning the tuning game with the LS1 in my Nomad.

[markm]

I like carbs, you don't need a $500 POS electric fuel pump to run one. Never seen a consistent EFI bracket car either.

[Rick_L]

What crawled up your ass and died today

Your pompous-assed comment is what it was.

I'd rather have EFI on that car too, but it doesn't have it now and that's what I'm dealing with.

[royk]

Starbrite published this on Ethanol a while back : Excessive water in the fuel and phase separation, " Ethanol attracts moisture from the atmosphere, forming an ethanol/water solution mixed in the gasoline. Ethanol-blended fuel will naturally hold .5% water in suspension, but when water levels exceed this threshold, or when the fuel cools significantly, the water / ethanol mix drops out of suspension. This is phase separation. Excessive water in the fuel tank causes engines to run rough, stall, and can lead to internal damage to engine components. Ethanol provides a significant amount of the fuel's octane, so when the ethanol/ water solution separates and drops to the bottom of the tank, the remaining fuel is left with out enough octane to properly operate the engine.
Additionally, the ethanol/water solution can become partially combustible, which can lead to engine damage." this is from the small engine industry probably 90% of the starting and carb problems I see in small engines is related to ethanol. Briggs and Stratton says phase separation can start in as little as 30-45 days if not treated with an additive to help combat the problem. long term storage with ethanol blended fuel is not a good thing.

[markm]

royk, your comments ring true with my buddy who operates a small engine repair business. I mix 50% BP Gold with 50% Renegade 110 with Stihl oil in my chainsaws, demolition saw and weedeater. Local BP dist. claims the Gold has no ethanol and race gas can sit for a couple years easy.

[Rick_L]

Back when I was racing, if I ever had race gas that I felt was a bit old, it went in the lawnmower. But actually it kept very well, at least for lawnmower requirements, up to 2 years as markm said (VP C-14).

The smell of burned race gas also made for more pleasant thoughts while mowing too, LOL!

[royk]

VP has a non-ethanol small engine fuel that is 94 octane rating

[markm]

Rick my wood cutting buddies like the smell when I cut firewood too, I was a die hard VP user until a local oil company hooked up with Renegade and I tried their 110. I tell people with backup generators all the time they should be using racing gas but it sounds like VP has that covered. ROYK does Palmer Race Fuels in Manhattan have the small engine fuel, I know the strip owner is a die hard VP dealer.

[Rick_L]

What does the VP small engine fuel cost?

[Rods56]

Ethanol will make water in your fuel...don't know how but it does!
I installed a brand new stainless steel tank in my 56' with a drain plug and a new Holley 4 barrel carb. Put ethanol fuel in...car sat for about six months while working on it...when I went to start it...I saw junky looking fuel in the see through filter...but cranked it up. Ran rough and stalled. Car went to Resto last year, so I pulled the engine and transmission. While at the house, I pulled the carb, bought a complete rebuild kit and you can see the garbage from ethanol in the pictures I will post for your viewing pleasure. I bought a Crock-Pot and cooked this baby in Purple Power, then I put in a an ultra-sound cleaner that is heated from Harbor Freight. Washed it all out in hot water...dried and rebuilt.
Went to resto, pumped my tank empty with electric pump, and drained the residual in the tank...got about 1 quart of water with some foul smelling fuel. Replaced my filter, and put 5 gallons of NON-ETHANOL fuel in tank, cranked up and purrs!

There is an app for your smart phone called Pure Gas and it will list ALL the gas stations in the US that carry NON-ETHANOL fuel!
I will add the following...Nasty carb on inspection, Boiling in Crock Pot, and put together.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5324&stc=1http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5325&stc=1http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5326&stc=1http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5327&stc=1http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5328&stc=1http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5329&stc=1

[markm]

This is Not a carb only issue I recently was involved in the purchase of 8 new injectors, gas tank and fuel pump for a 89 IROC TPI 350, now 383. The insides of this fuel tank looked worse than that Holley.

[royk]

Markm I don't know if they do, I buy what I've sold from one of my small engine suppliers. A lot of the small engine dealers have or can get it Briggs also has some branded for them.
Rick it's expensive, retail on Quarts $6-8, gallons $23-25, 5 gallon $78-80, 54 gallon $540- 550, Depends on how much the dealer buys and freight costs, I don't think we can afford to run
it in our cars. Most guys I've sold it to use it in their high end small equipment. They have 4 cycle fuel and 40:1 and 50:1 premixed also at he same prices. I haven't bought any race fuel
other than m1 methanol for a long time. Tried some of the 94 in my grandsons race gokart last summer sure woke it up over the 87 it's suppose to run.

[markm]

Currently Renegade 110 is $7.98 per gallon and BP Gold 91 is $2.50, so that's affordable at $5.25 no more than I will use in a year. Been doing this for years and no small engine issues.