Dropped my '56 off at Cnut's today

[hutchenc]

Hey fellas,

A friend of mine and I dropped my '56 off at Cnut's this morning (Saturday, 4/9/16) for the front clip (with body on frame) C4 conversion. Super excited! It was a slight miracle that everything was ready with my work schedule lately...I pulled the motor and tranny on Friday night (4/8/16). Long day, but I got it out and everything today went off without any problems thankfully!

Here are a few pics of the car loaded on the trailer for transport in Laramie, WY. I've asked Lazlo to take some pictures as he progresses so this should be pretty fun.

FYI...the wheels on the front are stock 2005 GTO wheels. The offset is +48mm and is really close (within 4mm) of the stock C4 offset. I'll use these for a while before I put a set of 17x8.5 C5 ZO6 wheels on the car. The rear are actually Mustang Bullit wheels...I'm running an 8.8 F**d rear and got a killer deal on them. They'll come off after the front conversion.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5924&stc=1http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5925&stc=1

[JT56]

This will be a fun project to watch

[chevynut]

I got the frame joint area sandblasted this afternoon and we'll probably roll it into the shop tomorrow afternoon. The C4 front clip is already built, so it's just a matter of fitting and attaching it. Then Chad needs to reinstall the SBC engine and tranny, and hook up the steering, clutch linkage, exhaust, and a few other things. We did a standard 3" front drop with a late C4 suspension, Z51 30mm swaybar, and Chad is installing C5 brakes on it.

I can't wait to get a ride in this car and hear Chad's impressions when he gets to drive it. :)

[hutchenc]

C6 brakes Lazlo! I found out, because I have a 2005 GTO, that 2005-2006 GTO front brake calipers are the same as Corvette C6 calipers, but without the "Corvette" logo. And, C5 and C6 calipers are interchangeable...but the C6 variety is a little stronger and looks cleaner (IMHO). The only difference is that the GTO uses different abutment brackets than the vette does so one needs those. I picked up my GTO calipers with pads and floating pins for $150 (including the rear calipers so I can just sell those for maybe $75...can't go wrong there!). So one can use C5 12.8 inch rotors (17" wheels will work) or C6 Z51 13.4 inch rotors (requires 18" wheels) with either C5 or Z51 C6 abutment brackets, respectively, and GTO calipers. I think I'm gonna stick with the 12.8" variety...I don't really need 13.4" brakes, but I can switch if I want in the future. Seeing as I want to run the 17" ZO6 wheels, I will likely stick with the 12.8" C5 rotors and abutment brackets along with the GTO calipers. The cool thing about this is that GTO calipers are about half the price of C6 calipers on the used market and also use the same brake pads as the vette. :)

[chevynut]

We got Chad's car off of the trailer on Saturday and in the shop on Sunday just before the rain started. ;) Today I put it up on jackstands, leveled it , and removed the wheels. I had to cut away the clutch ball and a steering box bracket before I could check the side-to-side level at the cowl. I tore off the temporary suspension and now we have a bare frame to work in. I marked the front bumper holes on the floor with a plumb bob, and also the radiator support holes to mark the center of the frame in case the frame horns are bent. Luckily, it looks like my frame jig, which I completely disassembled, will bolt back up under the body. All I might have to do is remove the rear caliper brackets, but it clears the springs, rotors, and everything else. The jig will let us accurately relocate the clip without nearly as much measuring and fitting.

Here's the car after unloading it....


http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5937&stc=1

Here's the stuff I had to remove because it's right where the joint is going to be.


http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5938&stc=1

Here's the car on stands, leveled, with the front suspension removed.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5939&stc=1

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5940&stc=1

[chevynut]

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention that I dropped Chad's clip and a full conversion frame off today for sandblasting, and hopefully get it back on Thursday. In the meantime I'll finish assembling the jig and cut the stock front clip off.

[hutchenc]

Glad you got it in before it rained :) Everyone can see my frame tears now! Long story short...had the car moved across the country a long time ago. guy put tow hooks in holes in the frame right behind the firewall on both sides and tightened it down so much the hook literally tore the frame. The company that moved it then said it was already there...yeah right! The repair is not very well done obviously.

[hutchenc]

Well...got off the phone with Lazlo. My frame is tweaked...I'm not surprised at all. I think this car was driven a lot before I bought it and I know for a fact that the front end sheet metal was originally from a red car (because I stripped it to bare metal)...this car was never red so it hit something at some point in the past and someone replaced the sheet metal! The passenger side frame horn has been dented since I have had the car...I bought it in 1992. I guess the passenger side has been pushed back about 1/4" or so...enough that it didn't line up on his jig. Lazlo is going to attempt to pull it forward a bit to address that.

And, my rear end isn't centered...off by about 1/4" to the passenger side. I have later plans to run a Watt's link anyhow so this is good to know.

[chevynut]

I knew something might be amiss when I measured from the bumper bolt holes to the floor, and got 3/8" different dimensions. I was pretty sure my floor wasn't off that much in 36" ;). I noticed the dent in the frame horn where the diagonal brace attaches that you can kinda see in the pics above, so being off a little was not a big surprise. There's also a tear at the very front of that frame horn, possibly from the same event. That vertical displacement was confirmed when I got got the front of the jig bolted together and leveled.

What was a bit of a surprise was that the passenger side bolt hole was further back than the driver's side. I aligned the REAR bumper bolt hole on the driver's side with the jig and the front hole aligned with the jig as well. Now I could tell that both the front and rear bolt holes on the passenger side were too far back, so I concluded that the frame is "parallelogrammed" a little. With the body on it's not easy to find locations to cross-check the frame. The jig has a diagonal brace to keep the sides in alignment and everything square. I'm going to re-check it when I get some help, but the dimension from the jig to the firewall brace is the same on both sides so I'm pretty confident the jig is still correct. Given the damaged frame horn, I'd say the passenger side is pushed back but I didn't think that was enough damage to do it.

Once I confirm again that the frame is not square, I plan to put a come-along on it and pull it square. I may have to cut the front crossmember off to do that, and I need to be careful that I don't lose my frame centerline. This is the first time we've attempted a clip installation on a frame with the body on, so there's a bit of a learning curve. Normally we'd just hack the crossmember off and drop the frame in the jig and let it align the rails where they're supposed to be.

[Rick_L]

Seems like if you verify the jig and are still convinced that the frame is parallelogrammed, you could add some temporary blocks that keep the frame in the correct lateral relationship while allowing fore/aft movement on the frame rail that's pushed back, then pull it into place. Another thing you could do is cut all but one vertical wall away on the crossmember on one side, allowing it to hinge at the cut as you pull the frame rail into place.

[chevynut]

Thanks for the ideas Rick. I also noticed that both frame horns were biased to the passenger side in my jig so that verifies to me that the crossmember is sitting slightly crooked. Since I marked the centerline of the frame based on the radiator support holes and not the midpoint of the frame horns, I think it's still accurate. In order to accurately hold the frame it looks like I'm going to have to bolt the jig to the frame in the rear, which means I have to remove the bumper and move or remove the tailpipes that are right smack in the way. I was hoping to avoid that.

We'll be cutting tomorrow, so I'll work some more on setting up the jig today. All in all, I'm happy with how it's working out.

[chevynut]

Well I just worked on the setup some another hour or so and the good news is the frame isn't parallelogrammed like I thought. The bad news is that I did have to remove the rear bumper, and two tailpipe hangers :cry: and found a damaged rear frame end. The driver's side upright bolted on just fine and located the jig to the frame properly, however, the passenger side rear of the frame is a bit mangled, so I couldn't bolt the upright to the jig correctly. The end is actually kicked outboard 3/8" to 1/2" as you can see in the pic below, showing the jig brace alignment. It's really just used to establish height of the jig, so I bolted the jig upright to the frame and clamped it at the bottom. It lines up fore and aft well, and the undamaged driver's side establishes the centerline too.

So it looks like all the damage that caused the frame horn to be too far back was contained in the front end, which we're going to cut off anyhow. I re-checked the center in both the front and rear, and everything looks ready to go. So with the exception of having to remove the rear brakes and caliper brackets, and the rear bumper, everything went as planned. ;)

I just called the sandblaster and he has the clip and the other frame ready for pickup. We're working Thursday night so I hope to have the clip attached by the end of the night, ready for the final frame matching and grinding.


Here's the damage on the frame horn. You can see the dented in brace area, and the buckle on the top. The frame horn is actually pushed back and slightly up. The driver's side is higher due to the welding that was done on the top of it to install a bracket for the steering box, as well as a clutch ball.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5941&stc=1


Hole alignment to jig

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5944&stc=1


Rear frame damage. :cry:

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5942&stc=1


Rear of the frame is too wide for the brace. So the upright is just clamped to the top of the jig.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5943&stc=1

[WagonCrazy]

I'm a bit surprised that you took a job like this one on Laszlo...with the body still on the old frame, etc. Now you're in a can of worms with the whole thing being out of kilter. Good thing you have that jig to rely on...that's the only thing to go by at this point.

[chevynut]

Paul, I'm always up for a challenge and Chad didn't want to start with a frame, nor did he want an IRS. ;) It's not as bad as it seems, now that the jig is sitting under the car and ready for the clip. The rear is really of no consequence and it can be repaired at some later date if/when Chad wants to. I was concerned about the frame being parallelogrammed but again, I didn't think it would be difficult to fix if it was. Once you cut the front crossmember out the frame rails move easily, even with the body mounts in place. Worst case I would have had to loosen them up. I'm confident the jig is right, my main concern in all the jockeying was losing the centerline of the frame which we need to put the new clip on. But it looks like nothing moved and I was really careful with where I loaded everything.

Plus, Chad's the closest thing I have to getting to ride in one of these at this point in time. :) :)

I got the clip and other frame picked up tonight...and another clip is ready to ship tomorrow with an LS engine mount kit. I still have a little work on the frame, then I have to prime it. It's not something we normally do but I quoted it for this local customer.


http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5945&stc=1


http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5946&stc=1

[WagonCrazy]

Plus, Chad's the closest thing I have to getting to ride in one of these at this point in time.

Ouch...I know where you're going with that comment.
Excuse me while I leave the keyboard to go back out to garage and FINISH THE NOMAD. :(

[hutchenc]

I'm a bit surprised that you took a job like this one on Laszlo...with the body still on the old frame, etc. Now you're in a can of worms with the whole thing being out of kilter. Good thing you have that jig to rely on...that's the only thing to go by at this point.

Hi all...I'm the first to admit that my car has lots of imperfections. Lazlo and I talked for a long time before we decided to do this...I've been pondering it for years and finally just said eff it! Thankfully, Lazlo was on board. It has plenty of scratches, the chrome isn't perfect, and the interior is barely in place. The frame is the frame that originally came with this car and despite what you might see with frame-off show cars, this aint a show car and it probably never will be. I drive this car, I live on a gravel road, and I'm not concerned with it being pristine...I'm more interested in having fun with it.

So, you can all see the blemishes under the skin of my car now. Really, I'd say my car is pretty typical of most tri-fives out there. If the average tri-fiver were to take the body off the frame, they'd find much of the same thing after taking measurements I'm sure...it's not like the factory tolerances on these cars were what they are today. Has the car taken some hits to make it worse? Yep...it's 60+ years old, shouldn't be any surprise.

[chevynut]

We took a little "detour" tonight and fixed some frame damage that Chad mentioned. There were two tears caused by chains or some tie-downs and were patched sloppily, one on each side of the frame. We cut the patches out, straightened the metal around them, and made new patches. After welding them in it looks a lot better.

Before:
http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5952&stc=1


After. The plates you see are the reinforcement plates for the clip which are plug welded to both the frame and clip with six 5/8" plug welds. The frame has been trimmed and is now ready to receive the clip.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5953&stc=1

We actually got the clip fitted and installed but didn't quite get all the welding done. There's a lot of fitting and frame-matching, then you have to do the final welding and grinding so the seam is as smooth as possible. All the plug welds are done, so the clip isn't going anywhere. We always make the plug welds first to try to prevent the main frame joint weld from moving the clip around.

I plan to remove the frame jig tomorrow so I'll post a pic of the clip installed then. ;)

[hutchenc]

Oh man...that looks 10 times better already!

[rockytopper R.I.P 5-13-2017]

Hutch why want ridetech tell us what the their new composite leaf spring ride height is designed to? I have never heard a more BS response then the one I just got?

[chevynut]

Hutch why want ridetech tell us what the their new composite leaf spring ride height is designed to? I have never heard a more BS response then the one I just got?

What? :confused:

Does Ridetech make springs for C4 suspensions now?

[rockytopper R.I.P 5-13-2017]

No I'm refering to their new rear leafs for trifives. Hutch started a thread on the other site inquiring about them and several of us have jumped in and ask what ride height they are design for stock, 1,2 or what drop and they are side steping the question for some unkown reason.

[chevynut]

Well I can see why they avoid telling customers what the ride height will be, because the weight of the cars varies so much. But I think if they took a KNOWN WEIGHT car and compared with STOCK springs and their new composite spring, it would help. To me the big downside is that I don't think they work with a pocket kit, but I could be wrong. Without it you're limited to a 275 tire. And they seem sorta expensive too.

[hutchenc]

$800 for a set of leaf springs is bonkers. That doesn't even include their bushing/shackle kit which brings it to $1050. No thanks.

Let's keep this thread on topic though.

[chevynut]

After running around all morning picking up steel and doing a lot of other crap :eek:, I finally got into the shop and removed the jig. I got the rear brakes and tires back on as well, so it's back on the ground. I also checked the clip location to the original marks on the floor, and everything checked out as planned. Here's a pic of the front C4 clip, almost finished. The angle looks a little severe but that's because the front of the car is much higher than the rear so we can get under it to finish the welds. The brace will be removed once all the welding is done. Now I have to round up all of the suspension parts for it. ;)


http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5954&stc=1

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5955&stc=1

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5956&stc=1

[Rick_L]

Back to the comments about the composite Ridetech springs. I had to do some digging on their website to see any photos, they're not really featuring these, and there's no assurance that the photos of the springs are really what they sell for 55-57s. The springs look like the old Camaro/Nova monoleaf springs in that they are wide and thin at the eyes, and narrow and thick in the middle.

I fail to see that there's a new front mount as part of the setup - and that would seem to be a requirement. And it would also seem to be contradictory for a pocket kit since you can't mount a wider spring in a standard pocket kit. To accommodate that, you'd have to splice in a "box" to be the spring pocket - which while not impossible by any means, would be a heck of a lot more work than a pocket kit as we know it.

I guess it's possible that they use narrow eyes with the wide spring end. But that's not what they show.

Rodney's comments about spring clearance, ride height, and some other stuff indicate that he's not familiar at all with 55-57s, and likely hasn't seen his product installed. Maybe not even that much knowledge on Camaros, etc.

I got the impression that they would change the spring eyes from standard to reversed to change ride height. There's no hint at all about arch or knowledge of what stock or other aftermarket pieces do. I understand that car weight can vary and makes a difference, but with a spring rate of 175 lb/in each (350 lb/in for a pair), you ought to be able to predict the ride height within an inch.

Last thought, he talks about "torsional stiffness". At first I didn't get what was meant by that, but finally got it. What he refers to as "torsional stiffness" is very predictable from the spring rate and dimensions. Bottom line is you can't add torsional stiffness with a moderate spring rate unless you do what Chrysler did - have a very short distance from the front spring eye to the axle. And they are not saying they do that! Bottom line is you'll need traction bars with these if you needed them with stock springs.

I became leery of Ridetech when I saw their 100% bolt in 4 bar kit. Not something I'd trust.

[hutchenc]

Fantastic!

Laz...don't think I ever asked this question. Do you weld on frame horns or does it stay open there (on the very front of the frame)?

[chevynut]

Do you weld on frame horns or does it stay open there (on the very front of the frame)?

They stay open, and the bumper covers them up. They're basically like a 57 frame horn.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5957&stc=1

[hutchenc]

Thanks Lazlo...didn't realize 57's were like that.

[chevynut]

Well here's proof it can be done. :). We finished the clip installation today and did the final welding and grinding. I gathered the suspension parts and installed them temporarily. Also found a 30mm Z51 front swaybar that Chad will install.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5961&stc=1

The welds and plug welds are all ground at the joint but we always recommend using a skim coat of filler so we don't end up grinding too much away. The joints all turned out pretty smooth and the repair patches are invisible. The frame is contoured to match the clip.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5962&stc=1

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5963&stc=1

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5964&stc=1

After discussing the damaged frame end with Chad, he asked us to take a look at it and see if we could fix it. The hole where the brace goes was pushed inward quite a ways, making the bumper attachment bad. We straightened that area and fixed the smashed end as good as possible, without extensive surgery and replacement of the frame end. Here's a couple before and after shots....

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5965&stc=1

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5966&stc=1

So it's finished and the rest is up to Chad to put together. ;)

[NickP]

Cool

[hutchenc]

That's pretty badass! Can't wait to see it in person. When you get the GTO wheels back on it snap a few more.

[JT56]

I became leery of Ridetech when I saw their 100% bolt in 4 bar kit. Not something I'd trust.[/QUOTE]

Rick, I have their kit on my car and it has worked very well. I was not sure at first, but after talking with Big Daddy Rat, who had one behind is 598 cid and had no issues. I did weld do some spot welds on them just for my peace of mind. Each year I look under it and dont see any movement. I will say if you plan on putting power to it...get the heim joints

[JT56]

Very Nice! So how much weight difference from the old vs new?

[hutchenc]

Not sure JT...I'd have to ask Lazlo to weigh in on that one (no pun intended), but I seem to remember that he's guessed about 100lbs vs. stock. I could be wrong there so don't quote me on that.

The aluminum suspension has to be significantly lighter for sure. I put that stock stuff on just to move the car and couldn't believe how heavy it all was...I'm guessing the control arms, spindles, and drums were 50lbs/ per side or in that ball park. The brakes...dunno, maybe a wash because those big C5 rotors are, well, big. Can't say whether the rack vs the box is lighter...really don't know but it's definitely more evenly distributed across the front end. Not sure about the frame, but there's definitely less material vs. stock around the control arms.

[chevynut]

A bare full C4 conversion frame that I weighed was 263 pounds versus a stock bare frame at 275 pounds. I've only weighed one of each so I don't know how much that varies. We remove all the stock spring mount brackets in the rear and we add a heavy shock bar that's included that weight. No shock bar was in the stock frame weight.

A C4 clip weighs about 103 pounds....I just weighed one this past week to ship it. I'll have to weigh the stock one I cut off Chad's frame to see what the difference is.

Some time ago I weighed all the C4 front suspension parts and all the stock parts and came up with a 66 pound weight reduction for the components, not including the C4 swaybar since the stock front end didn't have one and I wanted to compare apples to apples. That was with coilovers on the C4 front end. It might be a tad lighter with the stock composite spring instead of the coilover springs, but I'm not sure.

The stock upper and lower a-arms, spindles, and brakes are almost 60 pounds per side and the same C4 stuff is 46 pounds per side with stock brakes. The rack weighs 16.5 pounds and the stock box is 23, but then there's 14.5 more pounds in the stock steering linkage. The stock coil springs weigh quite a bit more than coilover springs...a stock shock and spring is 19 pounds and a coilover with spring is around 10. The early C4 brakes are a little lighter than the late ones because of the smaller size....I think I weighed late ones.

The rear is a little harder to compare because it depends on whether you have 4 or 5 leaf stock springs, and whether the C4 differential is a Dana 36 or 44 plus whether it's an early or late rear. So there's a lot of variables.

[hutchenc]

Going to pick her up in the AM :)


http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5983&stc=1

[chevynut]

Here's a couple more pics of Chad's car back on the ground a week and a half ago. There are wheel spacers on the hubs because the GTO wheels are slightly too small bore to fit over the C4 hubs. We also set up his steering column and lengthened it slightly for Borgeson u-joints.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5995&stc=1



http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5998&stc=1

[JT56]

Great Job! Always looking at a better way to get some weight reduction especially off the nose!

[567chevys]

Looks Great ,

Good job Laszlo , What's that gas Bottle in the back drop standing there all by it's self :confused:

Sid

[chevynut]

What's that gas Bottle in the back drop standing there all by it's self :confused:

What bottle? :confused: If you mean the argon bottle it's attached to my TIG welder.

[rockytopper R.I.P 5-13-2017]

Looks Sweet!!!! I have an out now if my bolt on solution fails LOL. Laz as proven he can convert a finished car!!! Great job looks great!!!!

[567chevys]

What bottle? :confused: If you mean the argon bottle it's attached to my TIG welder.


The one next to the welder

[chevynut]

Oh, that's an empty bottle we just changed out. How did I not see it? :) :)

[hutchenc]

Still waiting for a good day to paint the frame here in Wyoming. Keeps frickin' snowing!!! Rain this weekend. Might have to do it inside.

Got new del-a-lum bushings and other odds and ends to rebuild the front suspension. Checked out the wheel bearings and the tie rods on the rack Lazlo sold me...nice and tight. Ball joints feel good, but the boots are shot...got some new ones to go on. Pop and I are planning to spend a weekend coming up working on the control arms with his new hydraulic press and/or his neighbor up the road who is bored, has a nice '65 fuelie Vette and likes to work on random stuff like this!

Turns out that the GTO hub bore centers are .8mm (yes, less than 1mm) too small (70.3mm vs. 69.5mm). Hit it with a cutting bit on a Dremel...took care of that on the front at least. Waiting for some wheel adapters for the rear...got that F**d 8.8 rearend and GTO wheels now so I sold the older Mustang wheels that were on it, but now I have GM wheels and a F**d bolt pattern! I think in the future I might have the axle housing ends switched to a F**d 9" deal, change to bigger brakes, and run custom axles from Mark Williams. Might add about 1" per side so modern positive offset wheels fit without spacers. Would like to mini-tub it too, but all in due time I guess.

Showed my neighbor (who has a very nice '68 Camaro) the frame...he just shook his head. Wonders why I keep tinkering with it, but was pretty wowed by Lazlo's workmanship...he never drives his car though so I can give him plenty of grief too ;)

[chevynut]

Get that thing on the road ASAP Chad! Did you get the steering hardware ordered yet? Let me know if I can help.

[hutchenc]

Got the frame painted yesterday...finally was warm enough to shoot paint. Laid down pretty nicely. Kinda hard to see in the low light.

https://c7.staticflickr.com/8/7278/27307309086_48750dc807_b.jpg

https://c7.staticflickr.com/8/7346/27307310846_0461006abe_b.jpg

Also got my control arms rebuilt...my pop and I worked on them pretty much all weekend last week. Took us 14 hours (but that included cleaning and disassembling them). I rebuilt them with Global West Del-a-lum bushings. Ball joint were nice and tight so I left them alone, just needed new boots.

Here's the uppers:

https://c8.staticflickr.com/8/7246/27270345031_c8eb1d3df6_b.jpg

https://c7.staticflickr.com/8/7349/27243311062_0732c701c8_b.jpg

I'm going with C6 Z51 brakes. 13.4" rotors front, 13" rear (Kore3 makes adapters for 8.8 Ford rearends, who knew?!). I don't know if they'll fit inside the stock GTO wheels I have on the car right now...we shall see. I know it'll be tight if they do. I'll move to 18's when I actually get it on the road, but for now, I just want to be able to move the thing so fingers crossed!!!

[chevynut]

Looks good Chad. I see you had to pin the nuts onto the a-arm shafts. I'd be interested to see how those work out.

How long til you have it running and driving?

[NickP]

Looks good Chad. I see you had to pin the nuts onto the a-arm shafts. I'd be interested to see how those work out.

How long til you have it running and driving?

Pins? Is this due to the style of bushings?

[hutchenc]

Figure I need to update this.

The pins are because of the style of bushing (del-a-lum bushings)...I suppose a cotter key, an interference nut, or maybe even a nylock would work, but you're only supposed to torque those nuts to like 15 lb/ft and then drive the pin in. It really wasn't a big deal since my pop has a Bridgeport mill...I'd hate to have to take them apart though, that's for sure!

I had planned to run 13.4" C6 brakes but they won't clear the GTO wheels I have for the car right now (wheels aren't permanent...just waiting to order what I really want).

So, I ordered 12.8" C5 rotors and the correct caliper brackets to get me by ;) Had to wait about a week for the parts to arrive. Aaand...yeah, GTO wheels still didn't fit the 12.8" brakes so today I bought a set of 18" wheels for the car. Turns out that the GTO rotors are not the same size as C5 rotors like I though they were...they're 12.6" vs. 12.8". Doh!!! Kinda pissed at myself...I coulda run a set of 14" Z06 brakes at this point but oh well...I'll use the 12.8" brakes on my '72 Camaro. The GTO calipers work though. The coil-overs are here...but, the fellows at Viking recommended springs that are 8" instead of 9" so I went with their recommendation and lo and behold, I think they're too short. So, I got a set of 9" springs (which is what Lazlo told me to get in the first place). Yeah. Hotrodding at its best!

Got everything cleaned up, painted, rebuilt, and put back together for the most part. The sway bar bushings were kind of a pain, but oh well.

Here she is for the meantime...should have her back on the ground this weekend.

Also, 2005/6 GTO calipers are the same as C6 calipers and the spare set I had were in better shape than the C6 calipers I have. So, I cleaned them up and put them on. I'm gonna blot out the "O" in GTO and turn into a "6" so it'll read "GT6." Clever I know!

https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7354/27835285536_dabcf8daf0_z_d.jpg

https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7387/27257917453_f5ba99f662_z_d.jpg

https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7232/27835284416_fb49a2378f_z_d.jpg

[chevynut]

the fellows at Viking recommended springs that are 8" instead of 9" so I went with their recommendation and lo and behold, I think they're too short. So, I got a set of 9" springs

Longer springs are better because you can pre-load them more and use a lower spring rate. Coilovers typically take a pretty high spring rate and due to their short stroke have a pretty high wheel rate. So as long as you don't risk coil bind I'd use as long of a spring as you can and preload it. I typically recommend QA-1 shocks that are 12" at ride height and use a 10" spring.


The sway bar bushings were kind of a pain, but oh well.

What was the problem with the bushings? If you order the universal metric bushings for your swaybar size it should be a bolt-in.

[hutchenc]

The end link bushings were not easy to get out...had to burn 'em out. Then, getting the new poly bushings in was probably worse...they would BARELY fit over the end link brackets. I about took my hand off pressing them into position. Oh well...it's done now. But, I of course ordered the wrong friggen sway bar clamp/brackets (the ones that hold the bar to the chassis) so I had to elongate the bolt holes on the brackets by about 1/4" or so.

Now, I've got the 19's from my GTO on the '56...all's well right? Nope. Studs on the friggen hubs are not quite long enough to fully engage the lug nuts, so, new studs now. Got my steering u-joints ordered and should have that done soon. My pop will make me the solid stainless steel piece to connect them. Praying that my headers don't get in the way of the steering linkage.

I repainted the firewall last weekend and put my new M/C on as well. Gonna stick with a 15/16's manual setup for now...maybe put on my hydroboost next summer. I just want to get it on the road.

Hoping to drop the motor back in next week (I'll do it after I get the new wheel studs in, much easier that way).

[55 Rescue Dog]

The end link bushings were not easy to get out...had to burn 'em out. Then, getting the new poly bushings in was probably worse...they would BARELY fit over the end link brackets. I about took my hand off pressing them into position. Oh well...it's done now. But, I of course ordered the wrong friggen sway bar clamp/brackets (the ones that hold the bar to the chassis) so I had to elongate the bolt holes on the brackets by about 1/4" or so.

Now, I've got the 19's from my GTO on the '56...all's well right? Nope. Studs on the friggen hubs are not quite long enough to fully engage the lug nuts, so, new studs now. Got my steering u-joints ordered and should have that done soon. My pop will make me the solid stainless steel piece to connect them. Praying that my headers don't get in the way of the steering linkage.

I repainted the firewall last weekend and put my new M/C on as well. Gonna stick with a 15/16's manual setup for now...maybe put on my hydroboost next summer. I just want to get it on the road.

Hoping to drop the motor back in next week (I'll do it after I get the new wheel studs in, much easier that way).
I was curious as to how you addressed the bolt pattern mismatch? I know they are close. GTO 120mm-C4 120.7mm. I know it is not much and they will
fit, but with thousands of pounds of clamping force, .7mm is a lot.

[hutchenc]

The long and short of is that I haven't. Neither the stock GTO wheels nor the aftermarket ones I have on it have posed any problems with the bolt pattern...it's been the size of the brakes. Even with the 19's I'm barely clearing the outside of the caliper. These wheels won't be a permanent fixture...I'll move to some Corvette wheels next summer.

[JT56]

Looking good hutch! Man the adventures of hotrodding! Very seldom is something a bolt in lol. Thanks for the updates

[hutchenc]

A bit of progress lately. Got my coil-overs set up finally and put the 19" wheels on the car. I've been having knee problems so it's hard to work on the car for more than an hour or two. Was feeling good today so I got most of the brake lines bent up and fitted. Of course, I screwed something up though...cross-threaded my prop valve and now I have to drill and tap that plug for a 7/16-20 instead of a 3/8-24, but whatever.

My brother is coming to town next weekend to help me drop in the motor. Summer is fleeting...not sure if I'll have her on the road before it gets cold this Fall to be honest. Stupid knee is really slwoing me down along with stupid mistakes. I am fortunate that my pop is a professional machinist! Will post some pics tomorrow.

[rockytopper R.I.P 5-13-2017]

Hutchenc I feel your pain. I have chronic back pain and have lost much of my mobility. Hopefully you will recover. It's funny your trying to beat winter we are shut down here waiting for winter so it will cool down enough to work on them lol....

[hutchenc]

Rocky...yeah I bet it's hot. I'm a UT Austin alumnus, but grew up in Colorado so I know all about that Texas heat. I never did get used to the heat down there in the summer. Was at a Texas home opener a few years back (on Labor Day weekend) and it was 99 at kickoff at 7PM with no breeze in DKR...I was dying, but it was worth it! Going to a UT game in mid-October this year (not the OU/Tex game in the Cotton Bowl)...should be pretty nice by then ;)

The knee is a real bummer. Walking around it's usually not too bad, but bending over, kneeling, and getting underneath the car and back up, and all the awkward positions you need to be in working on these things is not easy with this bad knee.

I'm pretty happy with the brake lines...came out much better than the last time I did them. I can't believe how much easier it is to do when the motor and the fenders aren't in the way. I guess it just takes practice bending them and whatnot too. I hope my flares hold! Gotta do the fuel lines now.

[hutchenc]

Posted this on TOS, but figured I'd post here. Have a small valve cover/firewall interference problem due to the height of the covers I had been running. Gonna have to swap them out for different ones.

Big update...got the motor in finally.

https://c6.staticflickr.com/9/8491/28997290541_7ca16cb5cd_z.jpg

https://c8.staticflickr.com/9/8364/29073737695_7039f3519c_z.jpg

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https://c6.staticflickr.com/9/8055/28997283981_82baf781ed_z.jpg

So now I have two problems. First, my tranny crossmember mounting holes don't quite line up so I need to slide it forward and possibly elongate those two holes. No biggie.

Second one is more troublesome...my valve covers are hitting the firewall. I had to remove the passenger side on to get the engine in and now I can't get it back on. I have a set of the slanted GMPP valve covers...anybody think they'll work and if not, what then? I don't believe a set of short ones will fit over the poly locks. I'm not interested in banging up the firewall.

[chevynut]

Chad, the fact that your tranny holes don't line up is probably due to us moving the engine forward 3/4" from stock. I figured you would have to do some modification on that crossmember. How far off are they?

I am surprised that your valve covers don't clear the firewall, though, if they cleared before. As we discussed, the engine has to sit higher than stock in front due to the rack and the 3" front suspension drop. When you drop the front more, the k-member is higher relative to the frame, and the rack is also higher. Since the engine has to sit over the top of the rack (unless you cut the firewall out and set the engine back a lot) it has to also go up. That's partly why we set the engines at 5.5 degrees, to give the most amount of clearance we can get at the tranny tunnel. I recall one guy with a Newman frame who said his engine was set at something more like 6.5 degrees, but at that point I would be worried about the u-joint angles.

Are you using the correct engine mounts for the application? We set it up with Energy Suspensions 3.114 mounts. There is a taller mount available for SBC/BBCs but I don't think it will fit the tubes. I wonder if your mounts set the engine higher than intended. What is your clearance between the damper and rack? It should be around 1/4" or so.

We've built a lot of frames and clips with SBC mounts and we've always done it the same as yours with no reports of problems with the firewall. The way we determined the measurement for 3/4" forward from stock is that I put a SBC in a stock frame using the stock bellhousing and bellhousing mounts with a 3/4" spacer, and taking a measurement from the radiator support holes to the front of the damper. Perhaps the engine needs to be moved even further forward. Got any pics showing the interference? Is it only the passenger side or both sides?

BTW, the steering linkage looks good. Does it clear the headers ok?

[chevynut]

Chad, what is your engine angle RELATIVE TO THE FRAME? Do you have room to raise the rear of the tranny?

[Custer55]

Chad, How much taller than stock are your valve covers? I have my engine mounted very similar to what yours is. About 3/4" forward and just high enough for a 6 3/4 balancer to clear the steering rack. I have plenty of clearance at the firewall with stock height covers but looks like it would get pretty tight with a 1" taller cover in the area where the battery box mounts. I have the trans (Muncie 4 speed) moved up about as high as it will go without tunnel mods.
Brian

[hutchenc]

Lazlo...I think you're right on the mounts I already have so I ordered some new ones (the 3.1114's). I'll re-measure everything after I've swapped those in. I have plenty of room to raise the tranny and the tranny is about 1cm too far forward right now, but I have a suspicion that something is amiss with the Korean made mounts I have now. Hence why I'm replacing them. We'll see what happens. Also, the valve covers I have on the motor are about 3.75" tall...they're pretty tall. I had to remove the passenger side cover to get the motor in...there's absolutely no way it's gonna fit (you can see where it rubbed my nice new paint below). Driver's side is a bit better. I honestly think a different set of valve covers will resolve my problems mostly (other than the tranny/crossmember alignment).

Here's a few pics. I'm not sure what the gap between the motor and rack is right now...I'll have to measure that. I did disconnect the one line that pops up so I didn't damage it.

https://c6.staticflickr.com/9/8336/29080098845_e1e481802d_c.jpg

https://c8.staticflickr.com/9/8112/29003731231_dcd18b1b91_c.jpg

[chevynut]

Lazlo...I think you're right on the mounts I already have so I ordered some new ones (the 3.1114's). I'll re-measure everything after I've swapped those in.

That's a good first step, but unless they're way off I doubt they'll have a lot of impact. It's a good thing to change though, with as much power as you have.


I have plenty of room to raise the tranny and the tranny is about 1cm too far forward right now,

I think that's where your issue probably is. I think the tranny may be too low in the rear. Theoretically it should be 3/4" forward from where it was, if you had it in the stock position. But it's hard to tell since you didn't have the bellhousing mounts in place. The best thing to do is check the engine angle relative to the main frame rails, and make sure it's 5.5 degrees or less if you can get it. You will have to match your pinion to the engine angle.


I honestly think a different set of valve covers will resolve my problems mostly (other than the tranny/crossmember alignment).


Yes, your valve covers are in BBC territory over past the engine opening in the firewall. A BBC needs 1.5" forward to clear the firewall at the heads.


I'm not sure what the gap between the motor and rack is right now...I'll have to measure that.

If it's more than about 1/4" I'd say your tailshaft is too low and the engine angle too steep.


I did disconnect the one line that pops up so I didn't damage it.

You will probably have to rotate the rack like everyone else has to, and make the lines fit. :)

Give me a call if you need to.

[Aussienomad]

The long and short of is that I haven't. Neither the stock GTO wheels nor the aftermarket ones I have on it have posed any problems with the bolt pattern...it's been the size of the brakes. Even with the 19's I'm barely clearing the outside of the caliper. These wheels won't be a permanent fixture...I'll move to some Corvette wheels next summer.


The GTO bolt pattern is courtesy of Holden Australia and the bolt pattern they have on the local Commodore/Monaro - same cars as the Pontiac G8 and GTO, and same platform that GM borrowed from down under for the late Camaro. Yes the bolt pattern is different to the "normal" Chevy pattern and will not cause a problem when sitting in the garage. The technical guys down here know about the differences and they are not permitted under any circumstance down here - i.e using a Chevy wheel on that bolt pattern. Either change the bolt pattern on the rotors or use wheels with the correct bolt pattern.
Cheers, Des

[hutchenc]

OK...I got tired of wondering if the new motor mounts would help so I got it all swapped this evening.

Here's where it's at...5.6 degrees :) (btw, that carb mount pad is flat). That's pretty damn close to where it needs to be. I tried to get the driver's side valve cover on, no dice. I think if I shimmed up the tranny in the rear to about 4.5 degrees, it still wouldn't matter...these valve covers are just too tall. I'm switching them out for a set of short ones.

https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8283/28906063720_bb5e1abf88_c.jpg

Also, engine to rack is good to go...I even got the line back on. You guys think this is safe to run like this:

https://c3.staticflickr.com/9/8049/28906065010_3d788bba5f_c.jpg

https://c4.staticflickr.com/9/8070/29193768795_e3f7887e7b_c.jpg

Last, tranny mount holes are about 7mm off...I think I can just elongate the holes and call it good, but I may take the crossmember out and have some extra material added to the end of it for good measure.

[chevynut]

Here's where it's at...5.6 degrees :) (btw, that carb mount pad is flat).

Is the frame at 0 degrees in that pic? If so it's about where it needs to be. I'd check it at the pan rail or top of the head just to be sure the carb pad isn't cut at an angle.

It looks like you have a lot more clearance than you should have between the damper and rack body. We plan for an 8" damper (worst case) and set the engine as low as we can. We use solid steel engine mounts with 1/2" bolts and set the damper for about 3/8" above the rack body with those mounts and bolts. Then when the actual mounts and 7/16" bolts are installed it should sit 1/4-5/16" above the rack body. What size is your damper? Had I known yours was smaller (if it is) and your valve covers might be an issue, we would have considered setting the engine lower.


I tried to get the driver's side valve cover on, no dice. I think if I shimmed up the tranny in the rear to about 4.5 degrees, it still wouldn't matter...these valve covers are just too tall. I'm switching them out for a set of short ones.

I guess I've never see a SBC valve cover extend out that far to the bend on the firewall. Makes me wonder how it fit before.:eek: The engine must have already been quite a bit forward. Did you install the prior engine mounts?


Also, engine to rack is good to go...I even got the line back on. You guys think this is safe to run like this:

I think the rack line is fine as-is. You got lucky on that one ;).


Last, tranny mount holes are about 7mm off...I think I can just elongate the holes and call it good, but I may take the crossmember out and have some extra material added to the end of it for good measure.

If it's only 7mm I'd elongate the holes in the frame bracket and/or the ends of the crossmember a little. Since the offset is so small, I assume your engine was already set forward from stock. Perhaps we should have gone a little further forward, had we known about the valve cover issue.

Hope the shorter valve covers fix the problem.

[hutchenc]

Lazlo...my damper is 6 3/4" I believe.

Where on the frame should I take an angle measurement...near the middle under the door perhaps?

Also, yeah I was running 3/4" forward mounts before so that's why it's so close now. And yes, I put those in a long time ago...well, not me personally. I think the motor was sitting a little lower. The space between the rack and the motor isn't as big as it seems in that picture...the space between the line and damper is not very much. To the rack I'm guessing it's about an inch. I may shim up the transmission a little to get the engine angle a little shallower.

[chevynut]

Chad, yes measure the frame for level right on the bottom of the main frame rail under the door. Like I said, the 5.5 degrees we set the mounts at is relative to the frame, not the ground.

Here's the way I look at it. Since the engine mounts are low on the block, and the valve covers are high on the block, any increase in engine angle will cause the valve covers to move rearward as well as down. So let's say the frame is 1.4 degrees down in front and you're measuring 5.6 degrees on the engine...your actual engine angle is 7 degrees.

You said the engine is a little (7mm or about 1/4") forward of where it was before based on the tranny crossmember holes. I assume you had a stock engine angle of 4 degrees before, and your valve covers apparently cleared the firewall. So if you went to 4 degrees now, they should clear even better. The point of interference on the driver's side firewall doesn't change as the engine is moved up and down since it's a vertical bend. Not sure what that does on the passenger side.

To raise the tailshaft all you really need to do is make a shim to put between the tranny and crossmember, or between the crossmember and frame brackets. As you raise it the hole alignment will improve a little.

[hutchenc]

Got it...thanks Lazlo. I'll see where it's at. Any guidelines on material thickness per every degree of rise on the tranny?

[chevynut]

Got it...thanks Lazlo. I'll see where it's at. Any guidelines on material thickness per every degree of rise on the tranny?

Not sure Chad but I think it's close to 7/8" per degree depending on the length of the tranny.

[55 Rescue Dog]

As far as I know, the intake manifolds where always machined at an angle to keep the carburetor kind of level, so that is not the best reference point for pinion angle. With injection, it doesn't matter.

[Rick_L]

Most intake manifolds have the carb flange machined at 4 degrees down in front. This puts the carb flange level when the engine is at the usual 4 degree OEM down in back engine installation.

But a visual inspection of the photo shows that hutch's manifold is level with the engine as he said. This is often seen on manifolds that are designed to go in a race car where the engine is level.

The engine's oil drainback is designed around a 4 degree down in back installation. That's a good thing but a level installation is not a bad thing for oil drainback if you're concerned about it. A race engine often has the drainback modified to keep the drainback oil off the crank - or a dry sump is used which mostly eliminates any of that.

But a bigger thing is the way the transmission fits the tunnel, which is a big part of the back and forth in this thread, this done in conjunction with setting the pinion angle.

I'm an advocate of keeping the original engine installation angle, but sometimes you can't. Seems like we have a discrepancy here, and it has to be overcome some way.

[hutchenc]

OK, so I measured the frame and it's at about 1.5 degrees sloping forward. I do plan to lower the rear end by at least one inch however...maybe two inches. So that would decrease that angle, by how much I'm not sure.

I double-checked the engine angle on the front crank pulley and on the head and it is indeed the same so that carb pad is flat for sure. Measured 5.5 degrees everywhere (well, 84.5 on the crank pulley).

So...I can probably shim up the rear of the trans a bit to get the angle closer to 4 degrees.

Lazlo...are you sure on that 7/8" per degree? That would mean that I need to raise my trans close to 2 inches...that seems really excessive (and I don't think there's nearly that much room either).

[chevynut]

OK, so I measured the frame and it's at about 1.5 degrees sloping forward.

Measured 5.5 degrees everywhere (well, 84.5 on the crank pulley).

I figured your engine was too low. ;) Your engine is really sitting at 7 degrees to the frame or 1.5 degrees too low. Like I said, I'm not sure how much to shim it per degree, but if I knew the distance from the engine mount to the tranny mount I could tell you. I'm guessing it's around 48" so that would be .84" per degree, or 1.26" to get to 5.5 degrees.

I would lift the tranny and see how high it will go, then decide where to put it from there.

[NickP]

I figured your engine was too low. ;) Your engine is really sitting at 7 degrees to the frame or 1.5 degrees too low. Like I said, I'm not sure how much to shim it per degree, but if I knew the distance from the engine mount to the tranny mount I could tell you. I'm guessing it's around 48" so that would be .84" per degree, or 1.26" to get to 5.5 degrees.

I would lift the tranny and see how high it will go, then decide where to put it from there.

If it's a 4L60E = 22.5" Block Flange to mount CL. SBC center bolt hole (triangle pattern) for mount to block flange = 15.95 +/- so it's 38.45" pivot to trans mount. 1° = .6711" I'm doing that from memory and guessing on trans. 4L80E is 7-7/8" longer so it goes up to .808"

So, it looks as though you have a 4 speed by the images provided. Standard Bell Housing depth is 6.3" and the flange to mount CL is 14.2" - 1° = .636" If I am wrong on trans type, let me know and I can plug it in.

[hutchenc]

Nick...it is a Muncie yeah.

[hutchenc]

So, mostly good news. I was able to lift the tranny by 3/4" and it put my motor at 4 degrees on the money and I was able to get the driver's side valve cover on (using a different cover, that I intended to use anyhow)!

https://c3.staticflickr.com/8/7474/28774439354_3789007b44_c.jpg

https://c4.staticflickr.com/9/8177/29319123451_ed0db9130d_c.jpg

Bad news is that I still can't get the passenger cover on. The tall ones just aren't gonna work. I'm confident a set of shorter ones will be fine. These have the angle at the edge, but it's still too tall to fit on the passenger side.

Anyone want to buy these covers? They're pristine...never used, just mounted for mock up. They aren't even cut for PCV or breathers yet. $200 plus the ride if anyone wants them.

[rockytopper R.I.P 5-13-2017]

Wish those fit a LS lol. They are very nice looking covers!!!!

[NickP]

So, mostly good news. I was able to lift the tranny by 3/4" and it put my motor at 4 degrees on the money and I was able to get the driver's side valve cover on (using a different cover, that I intended to use anyhow)!

https://c3.staticflickr.com/8/7474/28774439354_3789007b44_c.jpg

https://c4.staticflickr.com/9/8177/29319123451_ed0db9130d_c.jpg

Bad news is that I still can't get the passenger cover on. The tall ones just aren't gonna work. I'm confident a set of shorter ones will be fine. These have the angle at the edge, but it's still too tall to fit on the passenger side.

Anyone want to buy these covers? They're pristine...never used, just mounted for mock up. They aren't even cut for PCV or breathers yet. $200 plus the ride if anyone wants them.

Hmmmm, B4 you go and do anything, by how much does the cover not work now? 1/4", 3/8" or way more? If memory serves me, and Laszlo, jump in here to either dispel my thought process or confirm, the steel motor mount is built with a tube that the GM or other lays over and the 7/16" bolt secures. If, you were to cut 3/8" of the tube from the rear (firewall side) and moved it to the front (some welding required), re-drill the trans crossmember by 3/8" forward (or slot if possible), would that get you the space needed?

[hutchenc]

I honestly can't tell how much space I need...I'm thinking it's close to a half inch (vertically) which I can get by moving to a short valve covers. I'm not real thrilled about the idea of modifying the motor mounts at this point vs. changing valve covers. Just gotta find a set that fits.

[hutchenc]

I think GM makes a set like this for LS motors Rocky. See here: http://www.jegs.com/p/Chevrolet-Performance/Chevrolet-Performance-Aluminum-LS-Valve-Covers/1330561/10002/-1

[NickP]

I honestly can't tell how much space I need...I'm thinking it's close to a half inch (vertically) which I can get by moving to a short valve covers. I'm not real thrilled about the idea of modifying the motor mounts at this point vs. changing valve covers. Just gotta find a set that fits.

Well, the alteration is simple and far less expensive than new covers but regardless, keep us posted - good stuff. How's the balancer clearance now?

[hutchenc]

I think I have a solid 1" clearance to the R&P. If I knew how to weld I might attempt the modification, but I don't :(

[chevynut]

Hi Chad, just got back from the mountains chasing wapiti. :)

If your balancer is 6 3/4" and we planned for an 8" balancer, that's a 5/8" difference in radius. Add our roughly 5/16" designed balancer to rack clearance and you're at 15/16". If you're higher than that, something is still wrong.

You say you have 4 degrees now...is that counting the 1.5 degrees for the frame? Or is the engine now 5.5 degrees relative to the frame?

If you want to bring the car down here I'll modify the mounts for you to drop the engine down or forward some, if that helps. I still don't understand why with so many SBC applications nobody's had this issue...maybe they cut the firewall out or fixed it some other way. Is it just the tall covers? Maybe other guys use short ones.

What would have helped prevent this? Should we put the SBC engines a little further forward? Looking for some feedback since we have a couple projects coming up with SBCs, and I don't want any of these issues.

[hutchenc]

Hey Laz...the angle is 4 degrees relative to the ground, not the frame. Frame is still at around a 1.5 degree slope going forward, so the motor, relative to the frame is now at 5.5 degrees (which is where it should be I think).

Let me re-measure the distance between the R&P and the balance...it's close to an inch, but I only eyeballed it so I could be wrong. I'll measure it.

As far as the clearance...I think it's the covers. The tall ones are just too tall with the motor up a bit higher than it was before. It was tight before, especially to the battery box (in fact it was so close to the battery box that I couldn't run a breather on the rear of the cover on the passenger side).

Let me pick up a set of short covers and report back. If it fits (and I think it will), I'm not gonna worry about it.

[55 Rescue Dog]

Don't forget to leave some room for engine movement too, especially with the power that engine looks to put out. I think the driver side it the one that will want to raise though.

[hutchenc]

So I measured the interference point from the rear of the passenger side head to the firewall using a standard credit card (which is 3 3/8" long). Looks like I have 3 inches of clearance so a standard short SBC valve cover will work fine, but the taller ones that are over 3 inches tall, just no way. Anything over 3" is gonna hit the firewall on the passenger side. I think I could maybe squeak a 3" tall valve cover under there...barely. Driver's side is not an issue as long as the motor is at the right angle, which it was not at first.

I also measured the highest point that my rockers' poly locks get to from the valve cover rail...it's right at 2 1/8 inches so a stock cover at about 2 1/2 inches should work just fine. This is on a set of big AFR heads...I don't think this would be the same on a set of stock SBC heads...nor would the interference with the firewall. The AFR heads have .750 deck...I think that's at least 1/4" more than a standard SBC head. Point is, they're taller than stock heads so all of this will vary by application. I should also mention that I'm running a Dart SHP block, not a stock SBC block...I think the dimensions are the same, but I could be wrong.

I ordered a set of die cast Billet Specialties short covers that are supposed to be 2 1/2 to 2 5/8" tall.

I also measured the clearance between the damper and the rack...it's just under 1" so it's spot on at the 15/16" that Lazlo said it should be at.

Lazlo...I'm not gonna worry about the height of the motor and I don't think you should either, but you might warn any of your future SBC customers that a tall valve cover might present some issues unless you lower the motor a solid 5/8". At that point, the oil pan (well, mine does anyhow, but it's also not stock, it's a custom Milodon pan) gets pretty close to the cross-member though so I'm not sure that's a great option. No worries here though...the tall ones I have will go on my '72 Camaro ;)

I'll post pictures when I get the new covers on.

BTW...I spent my evening watching the Texas vs. ND game, suck it Domers!!!

[NickP]

I also measured the highest point that my rockers' poly locks get to from the valve cover rail...it's right at 2 1/8 inches so a stock cover at about 2 1/2 inches should work just fine.

During normal operation, do the rockers exceed this 2-1/8" during their motion?

[chevynut]

During normal operation, do the rockers exceed this 2-1/8" during their motion?

My observation is that the rockers never come anywhere near as high at the polylocks. In fact, I don't know why they don't make the polylocks fit completely inside the rockers so you can use a socket on them and so they don't protrude above the top of the rocker. Something like this made to match the rockers would be nice so they're not so damn tall. The locking stud can be a lot shorter than it is, and it usually sits way down in the nut anyhow:

http://cdn3.volusion.com/5cfxm.hxrs6/v/vspfiles/photos/ARP-300-8246-2.jpg?1329280994

[hutchenc]

Yeah Lazlo is right...the tip of the rockers never gets close to being as high as the poly lock. I guess Comp makes some shorter ones, but I don't think I need to worry about it. I *think* part of the reason they're so tall is so one can use a stud girdle on the rockers, but you'd think that it would only be an option.

I had 1.6:1 rockers on my old 383 with short covers and they fit just fine, so I'm not worried.

[55 Rescue Dog]

I always wondered why they were called poly-locks?. They are not nylocks. I would think they would be called posi-locks. Anyway, with a hydraulic cam what would be so bad with the stock lock nuts?. Never recall one loosening up, back from when that's all we had. That's the great thing about hydraulic cams, you just set once, and forget about it. Mechanical cams would be where the benefit is for posi-locks.

[chevynut]

Anyway, with a hydraulic cam what would be so bad with the stock lock nuts?. Never recall one loosening up, back from when that's all we had.

You can't get a stock locking nut down into the rocker body. Most roller rockers only have .600" to .650" for the nut. That's why they make the polylocks with a long cylindrical body and a hex on top. The top of my Scorpion polylocks sit .750" above the top of my rocker arm studs. No reason they need to be that long imo except to clear the top of the rocker. If you need a stud girdle they need to be a lot longer than that.

[markm]

I think they build them that way so you can run stud girdles, which are ran on any serious HP application which never has a juice cam.

[hutchenc]

Good news all around. I got my new short valve covers in today and just now put them on. They fit just fine, with room to spare. The tall ones are just that, too tall. These are right at 2.5" tall...I have a solid 1/2" clearance on both sides now so it does look like around 3" is the limit with the motor sitting like this. I am running a thick (reusable) valve cover gasket...it's a solid 1/4" thick.

See here for comparison.

https://c6.staticflickr.com/9/8352/29553781165_94b5f29c9a_b.jpg

https://c3.staticflickr.com/8/7741/28928532074_320d38f009_b.jpg

If I ever step up from these rockers, I'll go to shaft rockers. I thought about that before, but the builder didn't think it was necessary on a motor that won't see more than 6500 RPM...that and they were another $1,000. No way a stud girdle is going to work for me.

I might media blast these valve covers to keep with the general look of the motor. Not sure I like the polished valve covers, but I wanted die cast aluminum (no painted steel). Opinions on polished vs. media blasted (to make them look more like bare die cast covers)?

[chevynut]

Good news! :) :) I think they look great polished. Blasted they will probably get dirty faster.

[hotrod]

hey lazlo its kenney i just stumbled onto this site and found this thread alot of good info in here for when i get my clip and start putting it together!
are there any updates on hutch's build i see he hasnt posted in a few days i cant wait to see how it sits when its done..:)

[chevynut]

Hi Kenny, welcome to the site. I don't know where Chad is with the assembly of the car right now but I know he's been slowed down with other stuff going on. His should sit the same as any of the frames we've built since it has our standard 3" front drop. My Nomad also has the 3" drop in front and you should be able to find pics of it here. Chad has the 8.8 Ford rear in his and I'm not sure what the drop is on that.

[Custer55]

hey lazlo its kenney i just stumbled onto this site and found this thread alot of good info in here for when i get my clip and start putting it together!
are there any updates on hutch's build i see he hasnt posted in a few days i cant wait to see how it sits when its done..:)

Check out my thread in Member Project Updates - C4 Frame project.
Pictures on the last few pages should be pretty close to where you will end up.
Brian

[hutchenc]

hey lazlo its kenney i just stumbled onto this site and found this thread alot of good info in here for when i get my clip and start putting it together!
are there any updates on hutch's build i see he hasnt posted in a few days i cant wait to see how it sits when its done..:)

Hi Kenney...I've been waiting on a few parts before I post another update. I just got the parts a few days ago...basically a trans mount spacer to help me get my engine angle correct. I'd already mocked it up with some random steel scrap I had laying around, but I wanted something nicer so my pop made the spacer from aluminum on his Bridgeport mill...he's busy too so it took him a while to get it done.

I don't have the front clip on the car yet, nor the hood. Once I get it all back on I'll post a picture. I can take a measurement from the bottom of the crossmember to the ground if you'd like now though (or, from the bttom of the lowest part of the frame rails to the ground). I am running adjustable coilovers on the front though so I may adjust it a bit depending on how everything measure up once the front clip is back on.

My rear is a little high right now for my liking...I'm still running leafs out back. I'll put in either a 1" or 2" drop block to lower the rear of the car.

[pa2000xxxx]

Good morning. I met with Laszlo yesterday--great guy. He told me you had done most of the OEM mods before going to his c4 clip and you weren't happy with the performance. I'm on the fence about spending the money for the c4 versus ordering a bunch of performance parts and updating frame. Can you talk to me about your opinion on the bolt on mods? I can call you if that's better. Thanks.

[NickP]

Good morning. I met with Laszlo yesterday--great guy. He told me you had done most of the OEM mods before going to his c4 clip and you weren't happy with the performance. I'm on the fence about spending the money for the c4 versus ordering a bunch of performance parts and updating frame. Can you talk to me about your opinion on the bolt on mods? I can call you if that's better. Thanks.

Well, you came to the right place - Welcome aboard!

[Chopperace]

What ever happened to this project?

[chevynut]

What ever happened to this project?

I haven't heard from Chad in quite a while and it looks like he hasn't logged on here since February.

[WagonWonder]

I haven't heard from Chad in quite a while and it looks like he hasn't logged on here since February.

Sure hope he is ok................................................ .................................. :| He was on the other site 08-15-2017

[Chopperace]

I like the idea of being able to do this without having to remove the body. So many projects seem to stall or people lose interest after everything is disassembled.

[hutchenc]

Hey all...I had to take a break from, well, a lot of things because I had knee surgery in April of 2017. There have been some complications since then with my knee. Just fyi. This has nothing to do with anything else...it's hard to work on a car when you can barely kneel without a lot of pain. Dealing with that has been harder than it sounds...it sucks when you're in constant pain. Hard to get motivated to do much of anything when that happens. It's gotten better and I'm back at it. I'm hoping to have the car on the road this summer. I really only need to put the front clip back on, do a little re-wiring, and move the motor to EFI (which is also mostly done). The motor and trans are in the car and all the brakes and suspension are done.

Still having some trouble getting around, especially kneeling, so it's slow going, but it's getting better.

[NickP]

Hey all...I had to take a break from, well, a lot of things because I had knee surgery in April of 2017. There have been some complications since then with my knee. Just fyi. This has nothing to do with anything else...it's hard to work on a car when you can barely kneel without a lot of pain. Dealing with that has been harder than it sounds...it sucks when you're in constant pain. Hard to get motivated to do much of anything when that happens. It's gotten better and I'm back at it. I'm hoping to have the car on the road this summer. I really only need to put the front clip back on, do a little re-wiring, and move the motor to EFI (which is also mostly done). The motor and trans are in the car and all the brakes and suspension are done.

Still having some trouble getting around, especially kneeling, so it's slow going, but it's getting better.

Good to see you!

[chevynut]

Good to hear from you Chad. Hope the knee heals up quickly. Let me know when you're down this way again.

[hutchenc]

Does anyone know the size/thread pitch of the drain plug in a Tanks EFI gas tank? I have mis-placed the drain plug. It's not the same size as the stock one, just fyi (it's at least twice as big).

Edit: Duh...answered my own question in 30 seconds. 1/4 NPT.