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chevynut
12-19-2016, 04:53 PM
I have been buying my stainless ARP 12-point bolts from Summit Racing but you can't buy individual ones so it can be very costly. They sell nuts individually, but not bolts. McMaster-Carr sells a limited selection of 12-point stainless bolts.

Last week I found this site that sells any ARP bolts you want, whether one, two, or a hundred. Prices aren't bad either. They also sell chrome grade 8 bolts and lots of other hardware. Select ARP in the lefthand menu bar.

http://www.allensfasteners.com/default.asp

chevynut
12-19-2016, 05:14 PM
I just noticed they sell taps and dies, drills, and lots of other stuff too. Wow, wish I'd seen that when I placed my order Friday. :)

Rick_L
12-19-2016, 05:49 PM
Looks like a good resource.

I've always viewed ARP as a good supplier of specialty high performance fasteners. Their head bolt kits etc. are top notch. They are also the only source I know of for left hand thread bolts for Dana posi units.

But I don't have much use for them for "appearance" items. If it needs to be strong, I buy high quality steel, not stainless. If I buy stainless, the McMaster-Carr stuff fills the bill. Just me.

chevynut
12-19-2016, 05:57 PM
ARP stainless bolts are 17-4 PH stainless, 170,000 PSI. That's better than grade 8 steel. Nobody else makes stainless bolts that strong as far as I know.

chevynut
12-19-2016, 06:14 PM
I thought I had read somewhere they were 17-4 PH stainless steel but here's what ARP says:

"Stainless Steel: Ideally suited for many automotive and marine applications because stainless is tolerant of heat and virtually impervious to rust and corrosion. ARP “Stainless 300” is specially alloyed for extra durability. It’s polished using a proprietary process to produce a beautiful finish. Tensile strength is typically rated at 170,000 psi. "

McMaster 12-point bolts are ARP (I've bought them) and they say they're "18-8 stainless" or "450 stainless"

https://www.mcmaster.com/#12-point-bolts/=15jkuu7

In any case, they're not like the typical weaker hardware store stainless bolts and work great on any suspension application.Allen's Fasteners sells chrome grade 8 12-point bolts too. Wish I'd known that as they're a little cheaper.

Rick_L
12-19-2016, 06:59 PM
18-8 stainless, otherwise known as 304, is roughly equivalent to grade 5 steel as far as strength. That's what the hardware store or home improvement store has. And most of what McMaster-Carr sells.

While 17-4 fasteners are probably available somewhere, they are not common. With 17-4, you need to pay attention to the heat treat. There are 4 levels of heat treat available with 17-4 bar stock. What I don't know is how 17-4 behaves when trying to roll threads. Probably not the best, otherwise you'd see more 17-4 fasteners.

chevynut
12-19-2016, 07:03 PM
18-8 stainless, otherwise known as 304, is roughly equivalent to grade 5 steel as far as strength. That's what the hardware store or home improvement store has. And most of what McMaster-Carr sells.

I know what 18-8/304 stainless is. :eek:

So you don't believe what ARP says? :confused: They say their 12-point stainless bolts are 170 kpsi (so does McMaster-Carr). Grade 8 is 150kpsi.

Rick_L
12-19-2016, 07:43 PM
Your post #5 indicates they are NOT 17-4, but are 300 series stainless. That's what my reply was based on. Just going off what you said.

Back to my original reply, I said I wouldn't buy ANY stainless bolt for a high strength application. Mostly because of cost. My choice would always be for functionality not appearance. And the appearance of a high strength carbon steel fastener is good for me.

WagonCrazy
12-20-2016, 07:36 AM
Are you two finished yet?

Back to the post topic....

Great find Laszlo! This place has alot more than just automotive hardware. Click the "Miscellaneous" link on the left side of their landing page and check out all the other stuff. Best part of this find (for me) is they are 3 hours from where I live (Lake Havasu area)...so shipping shouldn't be cost prohibitive.

NickP
12-20-2016, 08:14 AM
Are you two finished yet?



Hold on a sec. I think the conversation relative to material strength has merit so continue on. As to appearance/functionality, I'll choose function anytime. Not saying that appearance isn't something to consider if you're building a task specific unit but as mentioned, caution to purchaser pick properly.

BamaNomad
12-20-2016, 08:33 AM
IMO...
1) a part doesn't have to be 'shiny/bright/chromelike' to be NICE, and 2) I'm cheap :), so I'm tending to agree with Nick on this argument. I generally choose 'functionality' over 'appearance'. Through my life, I've heard that 'stainless steel' is not as strong as other steel (obviously there are degrees of this), but I tend to shy away from SS where strength is the major requirement, or for safety reasons. I'm an engineer, but I only had a couple of courses in Materials Science, and I never specialized in that arena... (Precision electro-optics-mechanics here)...

That said, 'rusty steel' is ugly, and I certainly appreciate the beautiful looks of Chevy nut's 56... and I'm sure it's more than strong enough! I like the painted parts of Chevy Nuts car as much, or better than the 'shiny stuff'.. :)

Rick_L
12-20-2016, 09:00 AM
"a part doesn't have to be 'shiny/bright/chromelike' to be NICE"

I wholeheartedly agree with that. ARP head bolts fit that description.

Troy
12-20-2016, 11:41 AM
I was thinking A286 was stronger but turns out they're only 148k psi at RT. but hold their strength better at high temp.

WagonCrazy
12-21-2016, 06:47 AM
Hold on a sec. I think the conversation relative to material strength has merit so continue on.
Yep, you make a good point here Nick.
I guess I was just winded from all the other posts of late where the same few guys just go round and round and round....

Carry on!

chevynut
12-21-2016, 06:16 PM
Obviously some of you just don't understand :eek: :D. First of all, I started this thread to inform others about a place to buy ARP bolts one at a time. You can only get them in packs of 5 from ARP, Summit, Jegs, or anywhere else. It's not often that you need 5 of the same size bolts. I didn't post it to get into a pissing match about strength or looks of ARP bolts, but it seems like that's the way things often turn out.

I'm trying to keep all my bolts the same color instead of having a mix of black, yellow zinc, clear zinc, and stainless. Maybe that's not important to some of you, but it is to me. All my plumbing is stainless and all my aluminum is shiny silver. So why the hell would I want yellow zinc bolts here and there screwing up the looks? Looks matter to me, and maybe they don't to some of you. That's fine.

Try to find grade 8 bolts in clear zinc....you can't. I've even checked Fastenal and a local fastener store. Metric bolts are available in clear zinc or yellow zinc.

So my choices to accomplish what I WANT TO DO, is to strip and clear zinc plate the grade 8 bolts (I did that on some of them), use metric bolts (can't do that everywhere) or use high strength stainless bolts. I like the looks of the 12-point bolts and nuts....it's just me and it adds an element of quality to a build imo. We used tons of them in the aircraft industry too. I just found the chrome plated ones and don't know of anyone else who sells them.

I haven't sacrificed strength for appearance as was suggested (at least the way I read it). ARP stainless 12-point bolts ARE BETTER than Grade 8, with a tensile strength of 170 kpsi...ARP SAID IT NOT ME! So what's wrong with using ARP stainless? I don't give a rip if others don't want them, and cost isn't that big of an issue with me so I use what I want. Others can decide if the cost is worth it to them.

BTW, McMaster has the material listed wrong...it's not 18-8 or 450 stainless. I've bought their 12-point stainless bolts and they're stamped "ARP" on the top. They also list them as having 170 kpsi tensile strength, same as ARP.

So don't suggest that I'm sacrificing strength for looks. I'm not. And I'll pay for quality. :p

55 Rescue Dog
12-22-2016, 04:00 PM
I really love shiny stuff too. Problem is, why, and when you start, where do you stop?

NickP
12-23-2016, 07:44 AM
I think, each of us here has, a specific plan for their project. What it will look like, how it will perform and hopefully remain in budget. I know it's easy to criticize a build, be it for the bling, engine choice, color, how its stance is, interior choices, tire size, chassis, suspension and on and on and on. I just wish I had a project (mine), but for now, I don't.

For the members here; I pray you find Peace this Christmas in what ever makes you happy and recall to mind that we are all homosapienes.

chevynut
12-23-2016, 09:34 AM
I really love shiny stuff too. Problem is, why, and when you start, where do you stop?

You stop when you're satisfied. :)

BamaNomad
12-23-2016, 02:26 PM
As an engineer, who had to learn the difference and the problem once I got out of school, I think there are TWO goals that we all at one time or another want to meet: 1) Make it *perfect*... and 2) Getting the job completed! Right out of school, I wanted to do both, but quickly realized it was impossible.. There are *other* more important goals than getting the job *perfect*... ie. 1) Finishing the job, 2) Meeting schedule, 3) meeting budget goals, and you could add many more...

I pretty quickly realized that 'doing the job perfectly', was probably an unachievable goal that would always have you chasing your tail since as you finish one 'solution', you recognize another that might be better... :) So I had to shift my own goals from achieving perfection, to 'doing as well as I could' within the other constraints (schedule, resources, budget, et), meeting the performance goals while staying within budget, schedule and resources available.

With most of us, perfection is well beyond our reach for our cars given our budget and time constraints, but I DO want to get the thing finished and enjoy it!! and THAT is the most important thing... do it as well as you can and can afford, but GET IT FINISHED.. :)

55 Rescue Dog
12-23-2016, 05:42 PM
I feel OCD all the time, when function doesn't follow form. Like putting center caps on a wheel in the same orientation, or screws in outlet covers, etc.....

chevynut
12-24-2016, 09:13 AM
do it as well as you can and can afford, but GET IT FINISHED.. :)

Then what? :D

I guess I'm having a hard time understanding how buying ARP bolts prevents one from getting it finished. :)

I've been working on my car WAY too long, much longer than I expected. But I've done ten times as much on it as I expected to do too. On the way, I learned a lot of things. I had never TIG welded anything until I started working on my frame and bought a TIG welder, so I learned as I went. The frame was essentially done years ago. I had done some bodywork before using an acetylene torch and brass rod but hardly anyone owned a MIG welder back then. During replacement of my floors, quarters and rockers I taught myself to use a MIG welder. I had never welded aluminum or stainless steel before, so I had to teach myself how to do that too. I had done very little metal forming before but still built my cargo floor, tubs, firewall, and all the under-hood sheetmetal. When it came to the interior, I had never built anything with foam and fiberglass....so I learned how to do that too. There were tons of things I had to design and figure out. Nobody taught me how to do any of this stuff, except what I could pick up from forums or other online sources. The learning part has been a lot of the fun in building this car.

I didn't expect to have to rebuild my BRAND NEW crate engine, but I did it. It was sitting way too long, and I knew of some issues with it that I heard about over the years. It took me a few months to get all the parts and get it torn down and back together. But it's done. The chassis is almost done. The body is close to ready for paint. All my chrome work has been done (except the rear bumper). Pretty much every part has been fabricated and assembled at least once.

I can't say how many thousands of hours I have in my car, but when you look at all the modifications and repairs I think it would have taken a rod shop several thousand man-hours to do the same work. Sure, an experienced guy could have done it faster, but I had to learn a lot of stuff as I went.

On top of all this I had a full-time job and a part-time "job" until about 4 years ago when I retired. I still do the part-time job. I have another hobby (hunting) that takes weeks at a time out of my schedule. I love to fish and camp in the summer. I go on vacations. The other day I looked at how many weeks I was gone in the past year and I counted 8 full weeks, not counting when I took off for a weekend or a few days at a time. I own a home on 2 1/2 acres that I built almost 29 years ago so there's always work to do and we've been re-modeling...with me doing all the work. I built two shops since I started my car too. My life doesn't revolve around my car, but sometimes it feels like it does. :)

For me this has been the fun part of the project. I still have a lot of assembly ahead of me once the body is painted, and I know that's going to get tedious. But I can see the light at the end of the tunnel, and I'm trying to get there doing the job as good as I can do it. I can't see slapping it together now, after all the work I've put into it over the years.

Anyone can buy a finished car and wash and drive it. I could have done that too.

BamaNomad
12-24-2016, 05:58 PM
Chevynut... It was not my intention to 'slam' you or your car with my post. I mostly was responding to a prior post where someone posted that 'most of us can't afford to use the best parts' in our builds (which is true). My intent was simply to say that nice cars come in all forms; if they are safe, attractive, driveable, and WE like them.. then that's what matters. Most of us have gone thru most or all of the steps in learning that you described on our 'projects'... I've got some that have been 'in the works' as long, or longer than yours have. I'm constantly teased by family/friends as to 'WHEN' one of my projects will be complete (so I suppose you are right too in saying that they are 'never finished', or are finished when you believe they are finished!).. :)

My primary goals with that post were to point out that 1) The parts don't have to chromed, polished, etc... nice paint looks good too, 2) that most of us just want to get them completed and DRIVE them... but it's also true that some of us (you and I it seems are in that category) also love working on them. I enjoy working on other's cars as much, or more, than my own (I tell my wife/family that it's 'cheaper' to work on someone else's cars, because they have to buy the parts!).. :)

Anyway, your car project is well beyond what most of us can do, or can afford to do, but bottom line.. you enjoy it, you can afford it, and WE all love to see your progress photos... :)

MERRY CHRISTMAS EVERYONE! :)

chevynut
12-26-2016, 09:17 AM
BamaNomad, I didn't think you were "slamming" me about anything, but I get a lot of ribbing from lots of people I know about working on my car so long :D. I constantly get asked if it's finished yet or when it's going to be finished. Most of them just can't understand the work involved in building a car to this level and with the mods I've done. Some can't understand WHY I do it, but then you have to ask yourself why Foose, Troy, Goolsby, Alloway, and gobs of other builders do it. I ask why people waste their time on a golf course chasing a ball around. :)

I'm not going for the Ridler, I just want to build the car to the highest level I can...it's just my nature, and is part of why it's not finished yet. But if you look at my build pics you'll see that most of the time was spent building it, not polishing things. I only started final assembly around a year ago and hopefully people will see the fruits of my efforts when it's finished. I quit predicting when that will be. :eek: Sometimes I have to step back and reconcile to myself why it's taking me so long too.

Some guys are all about driving their cars and showing them and don't understand the build part because they've never built anything and many of them couldn't if they had to. That's fine with me if that's what turns their crank. Some of them paint a few pieces and maybe drop in a new engine and tranny and say they "built" the car. To me that's more like maintenance....lol :D And then there's those who claim they built it but just wrote checks to someone who did the work. I could do that, but it wouldn't mean much to me.

There are plenty of guys who have been working on their cars just as long as I have or longer, and aren't building them nearly to this level of finish. So in that regard I think I'm doing okay on it. I think posting pics as I go actually makes it look like it's taking longer, but unlike some guys I like to share my progress and document it, as slow as it might be.:p

Merry Christmas!

BamaNomad
12-26-2016, 09:51 PM
Chevynut... many of us, me included, get ribbed about how long our projects are taking. I first began work on my 57 Nomad so long ago I'm embarrassed to even think about it! :) Obviously (I hope) i haven't worked on it continuously.. :) but it's been many years. The body was on a rollover cage for 20 yrs! :)

Anyway, ALL of us love the work done on your car, and we love the photos, AND we are very impressed by the quality. WE may be more interested in seeing it finished than you are.. :)

Troy
12-27-2016, 01:44 PM
WARNING Chevynut THIS IS A JOKE NOT REAL JUST A JOKE!! I APPRECIATE YOUR BUILD AND CAN"T WAIT TO SEE IT DONE!!! But Foose can build one in a week or two, just watch Overhauling!!! :D


Some can't understand WHY I do it, but then you have to ask yourself why Foose, Troy, Goolsby, Alloway, and gobs of other builders do it. I ask why people waste their time on a golf course chasing a ball around. :)

55 Rescue Dog
12-27-2016, 04:33 PM
That's the problem I had with a 18 year build until I was able drive it, that I am trying to avoid. It was only worth 10 cents on every 100 dollars until it was finished. Now I don't want to mess it up by driving it, and beating the crap out it, like I should. And, after taking too long, I would do it totally different. Sometimes the best part is the build, then it's WTF was I thinking.

chevynut
12-27-2016, 05:07 PM
Foose can build one in a week or two, just watch Overhauling!!! :D

Thanks Troy, sometimes I joke about having my car "Overhauled" by Foose since I've owned it since I was 20 and it's been with me through 2 divorces. :D I think there's a lot going on in the background on those Overhaulin' builds that we never see. They've filmed a couple of episodes at SEMA and I watched Gabe stitch up an interior for the car. They even hauled a paint booth there and set it up so they could paint the car. Not sure how they do the chrome work, but they can get it done a lot faster than any of us! :)

chevynut
12-27-2016, 05:17 PM
Back to ARP bolts...here's a comparison with grade 8. Which would you rather use if cost wasn't a big consideration? One of these 1/2"x 2 1/2" ARP bolts costs less than a microbrew at a pub and the nut is less than that! And they're stronger too! I'll just have to give up going out drinking for a while. :D


6700

Rick_L
12-27-2016, 06:03 PM
I'll take the microbrew. LOL

markm
12-28-2016, 06:00 AM
I'll take the microbrew. LOL

Me too.

markm
12-28-2016, 10:37 AM
Speaking of bolts I have a question, I just pulled the snow plow off a 89 Suburban and am going to install it on a buddy's 80 Chewy 3/4. Should we use grade 5 or 8 bolts. I can think of possible advantages of both, grade 5 might flex rather than break , but 8 is stronger.

chevynut
12-28-2016, 06:34 PM
Should we use grade 5 or 8 bolts. I can think of possible advantages of both, grade 5 might flex rather than break , but 8 is stronger.

That's pretty funny. :D

markm
12-31-2016, 02:54 PM
That's pretty funny. :D

Really, I guess you know more than the Boss Snow Plow Company, all the hardware that came with plow 3 hash marks grade 5.

Rick_L
12-31-2016, 04:46 PM
markm,

You don't want the bolts to stretch, because they will break shortly after that. At lower than grade 8 loads if they are grade 5. Grade 8 bolts are not prone to "cracking" or anything like that.

Any bolted joint needs to keep the bolts tight or they will break. Ask me how I know, it was pretty dramatic.

This stuff is basic machine design engineering practice.

Your snow plow either doesn't need grade 8 bolts, or the designers don't know what they're doing.