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chevynut
04-05-2017, 12:09 PM
Is there anything "magic" about engine break-in oil? I know you're not supposed to use synthetic oil (though OEMs ship new cars with Mobil 1) and flat tappet cam engines need ZDDP oils. But for a roller cam engine what should I be using? I was always told to use straight 30W mineral oil for break-in. Seems like there is no 30W oil in the stores anymore.

I see Total Seal 5W30 break-in oil at $13.97 a quart, Royal Purple 10W30 break-in oil at $8.97 a quart, COMP 10W30 break in oil for $6.97 a quart., and Lunati 10W30 break-in oil at $4.97 a quart. Surely COMP and Lunati don't make their own oil and I suspect this is all the same stuff, so why should I pay more?

markm
04-05-2017, 12:27 PM
http://www.renegaderacefuel.com/lubricants/

NAPA has both detergent and non detergent 30w.

chevynut
04-05-2017, 12:56 PM
http://www.renegaderacefuel.com/lubricants/ (http://www.renegaderacefuel.com/lubricants/)NAPA has both detergent and non detergent 30w.

So help me understand....you post a link to Renegade Lubricants, and tell me NAPA sells detergent and non-detergent 30W. :?

I searched Napaonline and they don't list Renegade oils (neither does Summit). In fact, I search on "break-in" and find nothing. They have 594 motor oils listed. I understand I want a non-detergent oil but they don't sort on that. If I click on "synthetic - no" I get 3 choices...all Pennzoil multi-viscosity detergent oils. This is why I rarely buy from NAPA. Their website sucks.

I need to place an order with Summit so I might as well order break-in oil from them to get to the free shipping amount of $99. Back to my original questions above.

markm
04-05-2017, 01:05 PM
Intended to be two independent answers, when I want 30w non detergent for my lathe or air compressor I go to NAPA. When I want 30w oil for my Farmall A tractor I go to NAPA. If I want a great break in oil I go to a local Renegade Dealer as do my two good friends in automotive machine shop business. Their racing oil has 3000 parts per million ZZP and break in oil is 2300.

chevynut
04-05-2017, 01:25 PM
Since I have a roller cam I understand that ZDDP isn't nearly as important. I'll probably buy just one of the listed break-in oils from Summit. I would just like to understand why there is a $9 per quart difference. I'm sure plenty of that is marketing hype.

markm
04-05-2017, 02:09 PM
On a roller motor I would just buy the oil you intend to run long haul and go. Renegade is about $6 per quart for racing or break in if I recall, but not required in your application.

chevynut
04-05-2017, 02:34 PM
Here's what GM says for the ZZ502:

Start-up and Break-in Procedures

1. After installing the engine, ensure the crankcase has been filled with 5W30 motor oil (non-synthetic) to the
recommended oil fill level on the dipstick. Also check and fill as required any other necessary fluids such as
coolant, power steering fluid, etc.

The engine should be driven at varying loads and conditions for the first 30 miles or one hour without wideopen throttle (WOT) or sustained high RPM accelerations.

8. Run five or six medium throttle (50%) accelerations to about 4000 RPM and back to idle (0% throttle) in gear.
9. Run two or three hard throttle (WOT 100%) accelerations to about 4000 RPM and back to idle (0% throttle) in
gear.
10. Change the oil and filter. Replace with 5W30 motor oil (not synthetic) and a PF454 AC Delco oil filter. Inspect
the oil and the oil filter for any foreign particles to ensure that the engine is functioning properly.
11. Drive the next 500 miles under normal conditions or 12 to 15 engine hours. Do not run the engine at its maxi-
mum rated engine speed. Also, do not expose the engine to extended periods of high load.
12. Change the oil and filter. Again, inspect the oil and oil filter for any foreign particles to ensure that the engine
is functioning properly.
13. Do not use synthetic oil for break-in. It would be suitable to use synthetic motor oil after the second recom-
mended oil change and mileage accumulation. In colder regions, a lower viscosity oil may be required for
better flow characteristics.


http://www.crateenginedepot.com/pdfs/ZZ502_Deluxe_12496962.pdf

chevynut
04-05-2017, 02:45 PM
On a roller motor I would just buy the oil you intend to run long haul and go.

Can't do that....I plan to run Mobil 1 synthetic. GM says not to use synthetic oil for break-in.

markm
04-05-2017, 08:14 PM
Do what they say then and don't ask stupid questions.

chevynut
04-05-2017, 09:36 PM
Yet again you show what a total f-ing asshole you are. You didn't even address my original questions you know-nothing dipshit. You only know how shit was done 50 years ago and it's now long outdated. Go f yourself and don't reply to stuff you obviously know NOTHING about. In fact don't reply to any of my posts from now on ....you're as bad as Toxic Rickie. Anytime you post anything you cause shit, markm ....or is it USA1?

JT56
04-06-2017, 07:38 AM
Chevynut, here is a link to Brad Penn 30W at Walmart. Comes out to less than $9/quart.

https://www.walmart.com/ip/Brad-Penn-Oil-Break-In-30W-Motor-Oil-1-qt-Case-Of-12-P-N-009-7120/51559085?wmlspartner=wlpa&selectedSellerId=1245&adid=22222222227039295956&wl0=&wl1=g&wl2=c&wl3=85317187730&wl4=pla-193234665890&wl5=9026840&wl6=&wl7=&wl8=&wl9=pla&wl10=112562626&wl11=online&wl12=51559085&wl13=&veh=sem

Bihili
04-06-2017, 09:04 AM
I am not going to make any recommendations other than take some time to read this.

https://540ratblog.wordpress.com/2013/

Yes it is long but worth your time.

chevynut
04-06-2017, 09:11 AM
Chevynut, here is a link to Brad Penn 30W at Walmart. Comes out to less than $9/quart.

Thanks JT, but I already know where I can get break-in oil as shown in my post. My original question is regarding the price and quality. Why would I pay $9 a quart or more when I can get a brand-name oil like Lunati or COMP for $5-6? And what should I be looking for in a break-in oil for a roller engine. THAT is what I want to know and was the purpose of the original post, not to be led on a wild goose chase by markm aka USA1 who doesn't understand anything but what they did in 1967.

chevynut
04-06-2017, 10:00 AM
I am not going to make any recommendations other than take some time to read this.

https://540ratblog.wordpress.com/2013/

Yes it is long but worth your time.

Thanks for that link Bill. It is a lot of stuff but cruising through it I saw these key things:

"A high level of zinc/phos is simply no guarantee of providing sufficient wear protection. And to make matters even worse, excessively high levels of zinc/phos can actually “cause” DAMAGE your engine, rather than “prevent” it. Motor Oil Industry testing has found that motor oils with more than 1,400 ppm ZDDP, INCREASED long-term wear. And it was also found that motor oils with more than 2,000 ppm ZDDP started attacking the grain boundaries in the iron, resulting in camshaft spalling (pitting and flaking). The ZDDP value is simply the average of the zinc and the phosphorus values, then rounded down to the nearest 100 ppm (parts per million)."

" Break-In oils rank between number 115 and number 198. But, if you omit the highest ranked Break-In oil which is far more capable than the other Break-In oils, the rest only rank between 158 and 198. So, if you are looking for outstanding wear protection during break-in, you will be extremely disappointed with most of these oils. Because they are not formulated to prevent wear, they are formulated to allow the parts to quickly “wear in”, which is totally unnecessary. This is because newly manufactured parts will have a surface that “microscopically” looks like peaks and valleys. The loading on those tiny little peaks, will be EXTREMELY high, because the load is not spread out across enough surface area to support the load. And no motor oil made by man can stop those peaks from being very quickly worn down, thus leaving a smoother surface that will distribute the load across a surface area large enough to support that load. That makes it is physically IMPOSSIBLE to stop parts from wearing-in on their own, no matter what oil you run. And we’ve seen that for many years with factory filled synthetic 5W30 Mobil 1 (which is one of the top ranked oils regarding wear protection capability) in countless thousands of brand new vehicles, that always break-in their components and seal their rings just fine. That means so-called break-in oils are completely unnecessary. And the poor wear protection provided by most break-in oils, can put a flat tappet engine in serious danger of wiping lobes. No matter what anyone tells you, for roller lifter engines or for flat tappet engines (no matter how wicked they may be), it is best to use a highly ranked oil, no matter how much zinc is in it, for BOTH break-in and after break-in. In fact, the SAME highly ranked oil can be used for both purposes, meaning you can choose a single highly ranked oil and stay with it from first fire, on."

"So, as you can see, oil viscosity plays no particular role in an oil’s wear protection capability. As mentioned above, an oil’s wear protection capability is determined by its base oil and its additive package “as a whole”, with the primary emphasis on the additive package, which contains the extreme pressure anti-wear components, which has nothing to do with viscosity.


"Relatively few engines are built with loose enough bearing clearances, to ever need to run oil thicker than a multi-viscosity 30 weight (though some may need a high volume oil pump). The lower the first number cold viscosity rating, the better the cold flow. For example, 0W30 flows WAY better cold than 20W50. And 0W30 flows WAY better cold than straight 30wt, which is horrible for cold start-up flow and should be avoided at all cost. And the lower the second number hot viscosity rating, the better the hot flow. For example, hot 0W30 flows WAY better hot than 20W50."

"Do aftermarket zinc additives actually work? To find out, I tested ZDDPlus zinc additive in 3 low zinc oils, and I also tested Edelbrock Zinc additive in 3 different low zinc oils. In each case, the recommended amount of additive was used. And in all 6 cases, these high zinc additives ruined the oils and made them WORSE than they were before the extra zinc was added, by SIGNIFICANTLY reducing their wear protection capabilities. These additives did the opposite of what was promised. That is not surprising, because most major Oil Companies say to never add anything to their oils, because doing that will ruin the oil by upsetting the carefully balanced additive package that their Chemical Engineers designed into them. And that is precisely what was seen when using these high zinc additives. So, do yourself a favor and don’t add any aftermarket zinc additives to your motor oil, because you will only make your oil’s wear protection capability WORSE than it was to begin with, no matter what anyone tells you."

"The use of zinc as the primary extreme pressure anti-wear component is outdated technology. Modern extreme pressure anti-wear components are equal to or better than zinc, which is why many modern low zinc oils outperform many traditional high zinc oils."

"As you can see above, there is absolutely no consistency at all, between the Break-In oils that were fomulated by these various Oil Companies. These oils are all over the place and bouncing off the walls. We see zinc from 1170 ppm to 4483 ppm. We see phos from 1039 ppm to 3660 ppm. We see detergent levels from 1104 ppm to 4234 ppm. And we see TBN values from 5.9 to 14.7. WOW!!! These oils couldn’t be much more different, and yet they are all aimed at the EXACT SAME Break-In oil market. It makes you wonder if these Oil Companies have any idea what they are doing, and if they even test these oils to see what they can really do."

"Now the brainwashed high zinc believers have ironclad data to show them that everything they have always believed about only needing to look at zinc levels, is total nonsense. Zinc levels alone are completely worthless. Only film strength/load carrying capability from dynamic wear testing under load, can tell us which oils provide good wear protection and which oils don’t. If the high zinc believers don’t grasp the value of this information, then they will never be able to select the best possible oil for their needs."

chevynut
04-06-2017, 10:12 AM
And finally, here's the most useful info I found in that blog. He has some impressive data, not just opinions and marketing hype. It looks like I should use Mobil 1 5W30 Synthetic oil for break-in regardless of what GM (or any of the guys with out-dated opinions) say. His reasoning makes perfect sense to me.

"Countless thousands of brand new Performance cars have come off the production line, factory filled with full synthetic motor oil. We’ve seen this for years in both domestic and import Performance Cars. Perhaps the most commonly known is the full synthetic 5W30 Mobil 1 that comes in High Performance GM vehicles. Also the Ford GT Sports Car of a few years back, as well as Ford’s Supercharged Shelby GT500 Mustangs, came factory filled with full synthetic 5W50 Motorcraft oil.
That full synthetic 5W30 Mobil 1, API SN oil ranks in the top 10% of all the oils I’ve tested, with a “Load carrying capacity/Film strength” value of 105,875 psi. And the full synthetic 5W50 Motorcraft, API SN oil also ranks in the top 10% of all the oils I’ve tested, with a “Load carrying capacity/Film strength” value of 103,517 psi. With the extremely impressive wear protection capability provided by these oils, if any oils would interfere with ring seal and proper break-in wear overall, these oils would be the ones to do it. But, that is simply not a problem, and of course these vehicles all come with a normal factory warranty.


CONCLUSION:
We know that countless High Performance factory engines, both 2 valve and 4 valve, have nicely broken-in for many, many years with NO ring sealing problems what so ever, using various oils with high wear protection capability. In addition to that, using oils with excellent wear protection capability, has worked perfectly fine for breaking-in in traditional High Performance flat tappet engines, and have proven that NO elaborate break-in procedures are required at all. You can simply fire the engine and drive the car with no drama and no worries. Try doing that with the poor performing high zinc Break-In oils.

So, why would anyone ever believe that you need so-called Break-In Oils with poor their wear protection capability, when these oils are simply NOT needed for ring seal (properly built engines will seal/seat their rings almost immediately no matter what oil is used), and they put High Performance flat tappet engines at serious risk of wiped lobe engine failure? Plus, they require elaborate break-in procedures if there is any hope at all of getting away with using these poor performing oils. Bottom Line: So-called Break-In oils are simply not necessary and can also put flat tappet engines at serious risk.


If you wondered how those factory full synthetic oils with “high wear protection capability” and how any other synthetic or conventional oil with “high wear protection capability”, can still allow proper break-in, here’s the answer. Newly manufactured parts will have a surface that “microscopically” looks like peaks and valleys. The loading on those tiny little peaks, will be EXTREMELY high, because the load is not spread out across enough surface area to support the load. And no motor oil ever made by man can stop those peaks from being very quickly worn down, thus leaving a smoother surface that will distribute the load across a surface area large enough to support that load. And that is precisely what happens during actual break-in wear. So, it is PHYSICALLY IMPOSSIBLE to stop break-in wear, no matter how hard we try. And that is a good thing, because we want that initial break-in wear, so that our part interfaces are nicely mated to each other in order to support the loads involved.


Engine break-in is NOT Rocket Science. You just need to make a wise choice when selecting the motor oil to use. At the end of the day, here’s what I recommend:


* For traditional flat tappet engines, no matter how wicked they may be – use a highly ranked oil from my Wear Protection Ranking list, no matter how much zinc is in it, for break-in to protect against wiped lobes, and a side benefit is that no elaborate break-in procedures will be necessary. Then continue to use the same oil after break-in. NOTE: This recommendation also applies to any other non-roller type engine.


* For traditional roller lifter engines – since they don’t have flat tappet lifter/lobe interfaces, their break-in is not as critical as it is for flat tappet engines. So, you can pretty much use any oil you have sitting around, and it won’t make any particular difference for break-in. However, with that said, I would still recommend using a highly ranked oil from my Wear Protection Ranking list, no matter how much zinc is in it, for break-in. Because roller engines still have various component interfaces that can benefit from using oils that provide excellent wear protection. Then continue to use the same oil after break-in. NOTE: This recommendation also applies to any other roller type engine.

No matter what anyone tells you, the same oil can be used just fine for both break-in and after break-in. These above recommendations have proven to work very well in the real world, while providing excellent protection for your engine.


Other points I’d suggest are:


• Always prime an engine, making sure that oil is coming out of all rockers, right before first fire.


• Use a thinner oil such as 5W30 or 10W30, rather than something thicker. Because thinner oil will flow quicker/better. And flow is lubrication. Also quicker/better flow will get oil to all components sooner which is very important to prevent unnecessary wear during cold start-up. And the quicker/better flow of thinner oil, will also carry away heat quicker/better than what thicker oils can. Remember that engine internal parts are DIRECTLY oil cooled, but only INDIRECTLY water cooled.


• And the last thing is to change the oil soon after initial break-in, to get rid of all the contaminants that will be present right after first firing a brand new engine.

Rick_L
04-06-2017, 10:36 AM
So you're saying that the guy you call a dumbass (mark) may not be so dumb after all? Hmmm

For the record, LS crate engines call for oil that meets GM DEXOS1 spec, from the beginning fill. Most synthetic and synthetic blend oils meet this spec including Mobil 1. No dino oils do.

BamaNomad
04-06-2017, 12:48 PM
Chevy has been requiring their engines (under warranty) ONLY use the DEXOS oils for the past few years... starting even before the DEXOS oils were available outside of GM.. :)

55 Rescue Dog
04-06-2017, 06:13 PM
Oil choices are too much drama for me. I just settled for 0W-40 Mobil 1 for my flat tappet LT-1 and BMW M Roadster. Everything else runs OE spec weight Mobil 1, and whatever happens I won't lose sleep over it. Never had an engine fail on anything ever, even back when I thought I needed 20W-50 racing oil thinking that was the best thing ever.

markm
04-07-2017, 07:07 AM
Got to love the Garage Queen he already knows the answer in his mind but throws out the question so he can pick the responses to pieces;.

chevynut
04-07-2017, 01:21 PM
I started this thread to get input on break-in oils and asked a couple of specific legitimate questions. Markm decided to post the shit he uses and a pushes NAPA whose website it crap and never bothered to address my questions, as usual. Then he starts bouncing all over the place before he turns into his usual asshole. Interesting that by trying to be a smartass he stumbled on the right answer. LOL! :D

The info Bill posted seems like it's pretty legit. I'm going to go by his recommendation because it makes sense to me. If OEMs get by with it I think I can too. The old out-dated ZDDP BS is for those who don't understand that things change.

I see markm aka "USA1" is still peddling his garbage Chevelle rotors that push the wheels out 7/8" per side on the other site. :D

Rick_L
04-07-2017, 06:44 PM
Do you REALLY read markm's posts on the other site? (Of course you do, you read mine too.)

Is that what it takes for your ammunition to be a troll and to piss you off so that your personal attacks are bigger and better to you?

You are a sad excuse for a human.

chevynut
04-08-2017, 07:45 AM
I read lots of posts on the other site fairly regularly, and I happened to notice that markm posted the EXACT same thing here as USA1 did on the other site. So I connected the two together, and found out that he has TWO IDs on BOTH sites. Why does he do that? I typically look at 2-3 sections over there (project updates, suspension stuff, etc.) and saw someone pushing the junk Chevelle rotors, and guess who it was!!!:D

I started this thread to ask a question, and as usual you jump in with your typical toxic shit defending people who attack me first. Who threw the first stone here? markm did....I tried to carry on a conversation but he was playing games. Then as usual you add your worthless comments and personal attacks. You couldn't be civil if your life depended on it, because you're a total know-it-all ass.

The issue I have with markm is that he badmouths anything that doesn't go back to the 1960's, whether asked or not. He always has to put in his 2 cents worth and rarely makes any positive posts or adds anything worth reading. Just like this thread...he jumps in and puts irrelevant, useless information and didn't even address the question. Neither did you, but as usual you have to put in your crap too. And you lie a lot about what people say...like in the ethanol thread where you lied about what I said and I nailed you for it.

Mark says he hates Terry on the other site, and badmouths the site whenever he gets the chance. Yet, he posts over there using a different ID than he had before. I call that deceitful and hypocritical. What do you call it?

Terry always used to claim that he put 295 tires on his "stock" 57. I pressed Terry several times because I knew you couldn't put 295s on a "stock" car...he finally admitted that his fenderwell lips were rolled. What if a guy took his advice and tried them on his car? That's misinformation just like markm's half-truth about the Chevelle rotors that he keeps posting without any disclaimers. Every time markm posts suggesting people use chevelle rotors because HE has used them for 20 years he neglects to inform the people he's trying to con that they move the wheels out 7/8" per side. When I mention it, he gets pissed off and attacks me. The FACT is they do, but he only tells half-truths. And that offset CAN be a problem for some guys, which he has never admitted. I say that's a disservice and misinformation for members.

You are one pathetic toxic POS.

chevynut
04-08-2017, 07:51 AM
And if markm really knew anything about the subject of this thread dating past 1972, he would have said from his first post that a roller engine doesn't need anything but the same oil you plan to run, and provided proof of that like the article that Bill posted. He tried to push the out-dated high ZDDP BS that has been proven wrong. Technology changes, but some people don't change with it.

55 Rescue Dog
04-08-2017, 05:55 PM
I read lots of posts on the other site fairly regularly, and I happened to notice that markm posted the EXACT same thing here as USA1 did on the other site. So I connected the two together, and found out that he has TWO IDs on BOTH sites. Why does he do that? I typically look at 2-3 sections over there (project updates, suspension stuff, etc.) and saw someone pushing the junk Chevelle rotors, and guess who it was!!!:D

I started this thread to ask a question, and as usual you jump in with your typical toxic shit defending people who attack me first. Who threw the first stone here? markm did....I tried to carry on a conversation but he was playing games. Then as usual you add your worthless comments and personal attacks. You couldn't be civil if your life depended on it, because you're a total know-it-all ass.

The issue I have with markm is that he badmouths anything that doesn't go back to the 1960's, whether asked or not. He always has to put in his 2 cents worth and rarely makes any positive posts or adds anything worth reading. Just like this thread...he jumps in and puts irrelevant, useless information and didn't even address the question. Neither did you, but as usual you have to put in your crap too. And you lie a lot about what people say...like in the ethanol thread where you lied about what I said and I nailed you for it.

Mark says he hates Terry on the other site, and badmouths the site whenever he gets the chance. Yet, he posts over there using a different ID than he had before. I call that deceitful and hypocritical. What do you call it?

Terry always used to claim that he put 295 tires on his "stock" 57. I pressed Terry several times because I knew you couldn't put 295s on a "stock" car...he finally admitted that his fenderwell lips were rolled. What if a guy took his advice and tried them on his car? That's misinformation just like markm's half-truth about the Chevelle rotors that he keeps posting without any disclaimers. Every time markm posts suggesting people use chevelle rotors because HE has used them for 20 years he neglects to inform the people he's trying to con that they move the wheels out 7/8" per side. When I mention it, he gets pissed off and attacks me. The FACT is they do, but he only tells half-truths. And that offset CAN be a problem for some guys, which he has never admitted. I say that's a disservice and misinformation for members.

You are one pathetic toxic POS.
I don't know how to paraphrase posts. I did not know that it was a law that everyone had to had to have the same name on various forums. Second, what is the big deal about Chevelle rotors? So what if it positively widens the track a little, and it is easily corrected by wheel offset? Some of the best braking older cars were better than many new model car now!!!