Snake Oil or Good Stuff

[markm]

I was at a friends shop who does work on about a 1.2 dozen local guys Trifives today and he had this Evans antifreeze replacement. You use it straight at 50 dollars per gallon. Customer is complaining that his 355 with hump heads runs 200 degrees in summer with AC. Car has one of those cheap chrome blade blue flex fans and electric fan behind radiator. Rad is in 6 cyl position. I said get a decent engine fan and build a nice shroud and forget the Evans stuff. Anyone ever use this stuff.

[busterwivell]

I haven't heard of it.
When I had a problem with the 350 in my 66 Chevelle, I replaced the 4 core with an aluminum radiator, and the single electric fan/shroud, with a dual fan/shroud and fixed the problem. I can now run 80 mph with the air on in 110 degree air and the engine is running 195........at the head.

[55 Tony]

There are other "water wetters" on the market that work, I haven't heard of this one. Antifreeze is poor as far as heat transfer goes. The one water wetter I used gave very little corrosive/rust prevention. They work best when used with distilled water. The more antifreeze you add, the less efficient it is, but if you are in freezing temps, well I don't have to tell you. I'm now running 50/50 antifreeze and water again since I got rid of the shroud and put a heavy duty flex fan about 1/2" from the dual 1" row radiator (an aluminum clone). My motor runs cooler than it ever has. Find out if the stuff stops corrosion. But in the end, 200F on a hot day with A/C isn't bad at all. There is really nothing to fix unless it's boiling over.

[Rick_L]

They only claim their coolant to have a higher boiling point than regular antifreeze or water. They don't claim that your engine will run cooler.

From their website,
Vehicles running under normal operating conditions should show either no change or a slight increase in temperature.

Most that are looking at alternative are looking for lower temperature, not a higher boiling point. This stuff doesn't offer lower temperatures, just the higher boiling point. Plus it's outrageous expensive compared to traditional antifreeze. And a traditional antifreeze/water mixture has a far higher boiling point than most guys think is an acceptable operating temperature.

Bottom line, fix your stuff if it's running too hot. Don't expect miracles from different coolant. That includes plain water with "water wetter" additive.

[chasracer]

Actually this stuff has been around for quite a while and it's not snake oil. What it comes down to is that it eliminates the main problem with corrosion and boil-over in the system - water. Yes it is pricey but if you're one of those that thinks you have to change out coolant every so often then the price is pretty cheap. One fill and you never touch it again.

[55 Tony]

Bottom line, fix your stuff if it's running too hot. Don't expect miracles from different coolant. That includes plain water with "water wetter" additive.

Mine dropped 10° going from a normal 50/50 mix to one of the water wetter additives, plain water, and less than 1/4 antifreeze. Don't knock it till you try it. Just going to plain water will lower the temps, but then you have a corrosion problem and possible freezing if you are in cold weather. That's a fact.

[chevynut]

In theory the "water wetters" should help transfer heat by breaking down the surface tension of the coolant and allowing it to make better contact with the tiny irregularities in the engine's castings. There's probably other far less expensive surfactants that could be used if one did some research. I wonder why the makers of coolants, like Prestone, don't put surfactants into their products.....or maybe they do. But I think the effects of surfactants are minimal.

Using less antifreeze and more pure (distilled) water, if you can get away with it in your climate, should help cooling. The factor influencing the heat transfer is the specific heat or "heat capacity" of the fluid. The higher the specific heat, the more energy it can absorb and carry away. Antifreeze (glycol) has a lower specific heat than water, about 35% lower at normal engine operating temperatures. A 50% solution of water/ethylene glycol has a specific heat 85% of pure water. At 25% ethylene glycol it's 95% of the specific heat.

I believe that everything else should be in top working order too. You'll get the best cooling with a clean radiator, a good high flow water pump, and a good fan setup that pulls as much air through the radiator as possible. The temperature rating of the thermostsat is irrelevant as it only controls the MINIMUM operating temperature. The key to maximizing engine cooling is to get as much temperature difference as you can between the coolant and engine surfaces, and between the radiator and the ambient air. This is done by removing as much heat from the system as you can.

[chevynut]

I took a look at this Evans coolant out of curiosity and this is what I found:

It's claim to fame is that it uses no water, therefore there's no corrosion from water. It boils at 388F, much higher than water which boils at 212F.

"Waterless coolant is a glycol-based fluid that is ready to use, no water required."

Here's the specs....

Relative Density kg/L@ 20°C 1.107
Boiling Point, Reflux 191°C (375°F)
Flash Point, CC 120°C (248°F)
pH, 50 vol% in DI Water 8.5
Thermal Conductivity W/m·K @ 90°C (194°F) 0.27
Specific Heat J/kg·K @ 90°C (194°F) 2633

Here's the same specs for pure Ethylene Glycol....

Relative Density @ 20°C 1.113
Boiling Point 197°C (387°F)
Flash Point, CC 118°C (244°F)
pH, 6.5
Thermal Conductivity W/m·K @ 90°C (194°F) 0.258
Specific Heat J/kg·K @ 90°C (194°F) 2744

Note: The specific heat of 100% ethylene glycol is .64 btu/lbF at 160F .66 btu/lbF at 200F. Extrapolating to 194F gives .657 btu/lbF. Converting to J/kgK gives 2744

The thermal conductivity of pure water .609 W/mK. Specific heat water @90C is 4205 J/kgK

So, in a way it's "snake oil" imo because it looks like ethylene glycol to me. Without water it doesn't cause "rust". The thermal conductivity is lower than water and similar to pure ethyene glycol perhaps a little higher. The specific heat is significantly lower than water and similar to ethylene glycol, but possibly a bit lower. The boling point is virtually the same as ethylene glycol. The differnce is specs is probably measurement error.

The main difference is that pure ethylene glycol freezes at -13C (8F) and this product is supposed to protect down to -40F. The vapor pressure of Evans is 28mmHg @ 100C and glycol is .06 mmHg @ 20C and about 16 mmHg at 100C. So something has been added to mostly ethylene glycol to lower the freezing point that also increased the vapor pressure.

I fail to see how this stuff can cool better than pure water or anywhere near as good as water based on the specs. To me the benefit is corrosion protection and a much higher boiling point. But you raise the boiling point of water by adding ethylene glycol and pressurizing the system. It looks like pure ethylene glycol with something added to lower the freezing point and that's about it. With some chemical analysis it wouldn't be hard to figure out what was added.




"

[Rick_L]

From previous discussions I think it's propylene glycol, not ethylene glycol. However the data shown is very close to ethylene glycol. I have to wonder if there's an error in one of those listings.

[chevynut]

Yes it does look like it's propylene glycol instead of ethylene glycol. PG has a freezing point of -74F and a boiling point of 371F. Specific heat is slightly higher than EG at .69 BTU/lbF @ 194F but not that different. In pure form it would still be far worse than water (specific heat 1.0 Btu/lbF) as a coolant imo. You can buy a gallon of propylene glycol for about $35. Looks like they make $10 a gallon by re-packaging it. :)

I wonder why propylene glycol isn't sold as automotive antifreese. Apparently it is for RVs and marine applications. Maybe it's the cost.

[Rick_L]

Did some googling, came up with a bunch of tidbits.

Evans coolant is indeed propylene glycol. Evans actually sells 3 different formulations. One is primarily propylene glycol, and the other two are mixes of propylene glycol and ethylene glycol.

I saw on one site that says Evans recommends that if you have computer controlled electric fans, to raise the fan on temperature to 230° F., otherwise the fans will run all the time. RED FLAG for most of us!

I couldn't find anything to dispute Cnut's listing of the properties of both. One thing I didn't find is the thermal conductivity of a ethylene glycol/water mix. Assume it's somewhere between that of each individual part and dependent on mix ratio.

You can't run pure ethylene glycol as antifreeze, it freezes at 10°F. But a 60/40 mix of ethylene glycol and water freezes at -49°F. So that's why it's mixed.

Propylene glycol is also the basis for the "non-toxic" antifreezes on the market, including Dexcool.

You must never have an air pocket in the cooling system with propylene glycol, because the area that's not covered by it will corrode rapidly. (I think this is the basis for Dexcool horror stories.) So there is a catch to the no-corrosion claims.

I could have provided links to some of my google sources, but that would have been tedious because there were several, and this is not a term paper, LOL. Suggest you do your own googling if you want to know more.

Anyway, I now know enough to stick with traditional ethylene glycol antifreeze.

[markm]

Unfortunately the lack of global worming made it impossible to tell if this stuff changed anything when the guy picked his car up. I think a 50/3- mix of water and antifreeze and a good shroud would have been a better plan.

[chasracer]

One of the issues with Propylene glycol is that as the temperature drops, it actually turns to a gel. Some of the guys around here will switch to it for the racecar downtime to keep something in the system and reduce corrosion but don't want to put regular anti-freeze in the system as it is difficult to flush out and it's a bad deal if it gets underneath a set of racing slicks. My oldest boy did this last year but without understanding what it does in cold temperature, tried to fire up the car and managed to fry the wiring to the electric water pump - the electric motor couldn't push the gel and over-heated. Not sure why anyone says it's expensive though, around here it runs about $5 a gallon.

[Rick_L]

Race cars just need to have the cooling system drained when you leave the track - anytime. Just put some ball valves on the block drains. Use a hose if needed for easy access. Then just use water.

At least that's the way I did it. Also I never thought twice about dumping water in the pits at the track, and no one else does either. But at the shop you may not want to do that, easier to do at the track.

Also propylene glycol is just as bad to clean up as ethylene glycol if you spill some on the racing surface. Another reason not to use it, and as already mentioned, some tracks are adamant about not using it. As they should be.

[chevynut]

S0 let me get this straight....since it has inferior heat transfer properties, they tell you to run your engine at 230F? That's kinda crazy imo. I guess I don't see the advantages of it for anything. Antifreeze has corrosion inhibitors and I've never seen corrosion to be that big of a deal.

I don't know where you can get it for $5 a gallon. Here's where I found PG for $35 a gallon....even a 55 gallon drum is $33 a gallon. The "good stuff" (higher temp) is over $46 a gallon:

https://www.grainger.com/product/20LP86?cm_mmc=PPC:+Google+PLA&s_kwcid=AL!2966!3!57005225037!!!g!104634493797!&ef_id=WjHwvgAAAFA6FjWw:20180330022004:s

[Florida 57]

Ever wonder why it`s become difficult now to poison or murder someone with antifreeze?

To help prevent ethylene glycol poisonings, some states require that ingredients be added to antifreeze to make it bitter-tasting and unpalatable. Last year a number of antifreeze and automotive coolant makers agreed (http://https//www.avma.org/News/JAVMANews/Pages/130215f.aspx) to voluntarily add bittering agents to their products even where not required by law. Once the new, grosser products hit the shelves, would-be murderers will have to go back to the drawing board and find another yummy poison (unless they can get pure ethylene glycol, often used in labs like Gonzalez-Angulo’s)

[NickP]

Ever wonder why it`s become difficult now to poison or murder someone with antifreeze?



I can't say I ever have.............................................. .................................................. ........................................... :(

[markm]

Both of my drag Camaros have anti freeze, not very popular with the NHRA but I don't typically run their tracks.