Moser axles

[55 Tony]

Moser 12 bolt axles, 30 spline chrome moly. Any idea how much HP they are good for? Yes, I twisted one.
And keep in mind that it's automatic and 3.42 gears.

[Rick_L]

Sure they are chrome moly aftermarket axles? They shouldn't twist with your power level and gearing, especially with an automatic and limited traction.

[55 Tony]

Sure they are chrome moly aftermarket axles? They shouldn't twist with your power level and gearing, especially with an automatic and limited traction.

First off the traction was excellent, real slicks that hooked really great. Second, how would I know if they really chrome moly?
And back to the original question ... how much HP would it take to twist one?

[Rick_L]

Suggest you talk to Moser.

[55 Tony]

Moser says all their axles are made of 1541H alloy, not chrome moly.
I found this and I think it is what I want:
4340 (http://completeoffroad.com/search.html?t=p&q=4340&go=Go) is designated as chrome-moly and is noted for its ability to absorb shock of split-second acceleration. This particular grade is widely used in aftermarket shafts as it is known for its strength and affordability.
Or these are one step down I think:
4140 is a chrome-moly steel and features improved hardness, greater elasticity and resistance to corrosion.

[markm]

First off the traction was excellent, real slicks that hooked really great. Second, how would I know if they really chrome moly?
And back to the original question ... how much HP would it take to twist one?

So you are going to a real dragstrip now.

[55 Tony]

Depends what you call real.

[Rick_L]

Yield strength of 4340 (chrome nickel moly) = 125000 psi
Yield strength of 4140 (chrome moly) = 63000 psi
Yield strength of 1541 (high manganese) = 51000 psi

This will vary some depending on the actual heat treat, as will hardness and toughness.

[Florida 57]

Yield strength of 4340 (chrome nickel moly) = 125000 psi
Yield strength of 4140 (chrome moly) = 63000 psi
Yield strength of 1541 (high manganese) = 51000 psi

This will vary some depending on the actual heat treat, as will hardness and toughness.
What is the average chrome moly roll cage built from let`s say for an 8- 9 second car, or is it subjective?

[Rick_L]

8-9 second drag race cars use 4340 "normalized" tubing. Wall thickness and construction must meet SFI specs.

Slower cars that require a cage can use 1020 mild steel tubing, wall thickness and construction must meet NHRA rules.

[Bitchin'57]

Are those drag axles you have, or the street/strip kind? Maybe its time to step up to 35 spline axles. Although, there are many racers that are running high 8's in the quarter with 31 spline axles.

[Rick_L]

Curiously, Strange Engineering uses 1550 steel for their axles.

Mark Williams uses 4340 and 300M. 300M is a modified 4340.

[55 Tony]

Are those drag axles you have, or the street/strip kind? Maybe its time to step up to 35 spline axles. Although, there are many racers that are running high 8's in the quarter with 31 spline axles.

Well I'll have to straighten this out. The guy who narrowed the rear and bought the axles told me they were from Yukon and they get their axles from Moser. I found that to be untrue.

Yukon says they make their own axles, but they are a part of Randy's Worldwide, which includes Randy's Ring and Pinion. So according to the customer service supervisor, Randy's Ring and Pinion and Yukon are "the same". All I know is that two people that know axles looked at them and said I got bad axles, that even stock factory axles would have been stronger. The guy that built my rear says that the packing or something Yukon uses to ship the axles says "1541 Chromoly", which of course is like saying "A and Z are the same". I am going to request to see the packing that the next "1541 Chromoly" axles come in. Yukon did say that they make both 1541 and chromoly axles.

[55 Tony]

Curiously, Strange Engineering uses 1550 steel for their axles.

Mark Williams uses 4340 and 300M. 300M is a modified 4340.

And they make 30 spline out of 4340 also, which I didn't see anywhere else. Would be nice to be able to use the carrier, gears, and posi I already have. Wish I had called them today. I'll have to see if they make a c-clip eliminator for a large end 12 bolt passenger rear. (1966 Impala)

Or are those axles way overkill? They do make less expensive ones but I didn't see what they are made from.

[Rick_L]

My thought is that your axles are defective because they weren't heat treated properly, not the material itself. I base this on the fact that Strange uses the 1550 alloy, which should be similar to the 1541. But 4340 axles will be stronger (and more expensive). Can't say this is 100% the deal though.

[markm]

I have known several guys who stepped up to 33 spline axles with street strip 12 bolts. I was under the impression that this was the limit for stock carriers bigger required more than a side gear change.

[markm]

I raced my 67 SS 350 which ran in the 12s from the late 70s to early 90s with stock axles and never had an issue. When I first built my 75 Camaro drag only car It had a 70 Camaro 12 bolt with stock axles. ran that until I started getting 1.50 sixty foot tines and high 10s. At that time I switched to a Dana 60, not a 9 inch because of problem with Ford parts when I ran one in the 67. I still have both the aforementioned 12 bolts with 4.10 and 4.56 gears. My 67 has a 3.07 geared 12 bolt that is going to get 3.31 or 3.55s now that the power tour is out of my system/

[Bitchin'57]

I recommend going with Strange axles. I've used them on several cars, and never had an issue. And, there will be no guessing game as to who makes them, and the quality of them.

[55 Tony]

Just curious, someone was talking about Richmond Gears. Are they as bad as he said?

[Rick_L]

They have a reputation for being noisy, but strength does not seem to be a problem.

[55 Tony]

Thanks Rick. I'm getting a set of 4.10 thick for a 3 series carrier at no cost due to some screwups from the guy who first did the rear. Hope they aren't too noisy.

What order do things go in ... I need new axles and C clip eliminators (that take tapered bearings). Do I get the c clip eliminators first, then measure the bearings and get axles to fit? Does it matter if the axles have the C-clip end even if it's not being used? (somewhere I think I found stock axles to fit. (29 1/8") but of course I still have to know the bearing ID.)

And is Moser full of it when they say their c clip eliminators with BALL BEARINGS are good for street/strip. They also have tapered bearings but the claim they are only needed for dirt/mud racing.

[markm]

A friend of mine who locally is a go to guy for building differentials and huge 12 bolt fan would agree with Rick. He likes to find decent used factory gears for restore guys. Not a fan of c-clip eliminators, never used them . 29 1/8 sounds like a first gen Camaro axle to me. 29.5 would be second gen Camaro or 68-72 Chevelle/ Monte.

[55 Tony]

I'm finally putting the things together, in my head anyway. After a phone call later I'll know a lot more if I can get housing ends that are longer, *and* be able to put tapered bearings in them, (my housing is actually 1" too short and tapered bearings are supposed to be good for street/strip). Found a retired guy who has cut and welded housing ends hundreds, maybe thousands of times and has the right setup to make them straight. He starts with a steel bar that gets bolted in with my carrier caps then a few things go on the ends to hold the ends straight. He's over 2 hours away and is willing to meet me 1 hour away to where he makes pickups often. He said he can make them longer if needed but it will cost a little more (so far he is as cheap as dirt). This would be a good time for me to cut my perches off and be able to get rid of the 2° shims. I've been told for stock suspension they should be at 7°. Anyone know if that is correct? It looks about right but the car is up the the air. Also I had bought an aluminum rear cover "girdle" that has the bolts to put pressure on the end caps. Is getting one drivers side steel end cap overkill? Actually I have a set of the aluminum ones from Strange but I'm not impressed with their thickness compared to stock cast ones. For being aluminum they aren't *that* much thicker than stock ones. .632 new to .487 factory. Although the factory ones also have a *hollow* in the outside center.. The ones from Strange mentions their ability to distort without breaking. Maybe I'm underestimating aluminum?

Oh, a big question. I believe I get the housing to how I want it and *then* order the axles, right? Might sound dumb but even dumber to do it wrong.

[Bitchin'57]

Oh, a big question. I believe I get the housing to how I want it and *then* order the axles, right?
Correct. First, I stuff the wheel/tire combo and set my inside and outside spacing. Then, with a tape measure, measure from wheel mounting surface to wheel mounting surface, and that's the total width of the rear end, with the brakes mounted.

[55 Tony]

8-9 second drag race cars use 4340 "normalized" tubing. Wall thickness and construction must meet SFI specs.

Slower cars that require a cage can use 1020 mild steel tubing, wall thickness and construction must meet NHRA rules.

About how fast are 8-9 second cars going in the 1/8?

[markm]

Most of my cars work out about 1/8 X 1.56= 1/4 or 1/4/1.56=1/8

[Bitchin'57]

About how fast are 8-9 second cars going in the 1/8?
As an example, on one pass, one of my street cars ran a 9.16 in the quarter, and 5.86 in the 1/8.

[55 Tony]

I recommend going with Strange axles. I've used them on several cars, and never had an issue. And, there will be no guessing game as to who makes them, and the quality of them.

Strange tells me they don't make the axles I need?

[markm]

I have had good luck with Toms KA axles they fit splines better than many others I have seen.

[55 Tony]

Shit, now I have to wait until Monday to call them again (Toms). I am hoping his daughter will be able to find a set to fill my needs. They don't make them, they pull them off the shelf.

Question: Does the center shaft that goes through the spider gears still keep the axle from going in too far if I have eliminated the C-Clips? I'm trying to figure out how close my axle length needs to be, as in ... can it be a little short, just so the splines mesh completely?

[chasracer]

The C-Clips don't stop the axle from coming in at all, whether they are there or not. I take it you're talking about the spider gear pin that is held in with the cap screw bolt? The ends of the axles shouldn't be touching that pin.

[chasracer]

Oh and for the rear end width, etc - take a look at S&W Race cars site - I think they have a downloadable form (pdf) that shows you what measurements are needed for ordering a custom sized third member. You don't have to get it from them but the form made it simple to get the right information for whoever builds it.

[55 Tony]

The C-Clips don't stop the axle from coming in at all, whether they are there or not. I take it you're talking about the spider gear pin that is held in with the cap screw bolt? The ends of the axles shouldn't be touching that pin.
I realize that, the pin kept the axles from coming in. The c-clips kept them from going out.
Now with the c-clip eliminator the axles are somewhat shorter, how much shorter can they be? Just long enough to engage all of the splined parts?
The hardest part for me is to figure the bearing seat offset?

[NickP]

I realize that, the pin kept the axles from coming in. The c-clips kept them from going out.
Now with the c-clip eliminator the axles are somewhat shorter, how much shorter can they be? Just long enough to engage all of the splined parts?
The hardest part for me is to figure the bearing seat offset?

Bearing seat offset? If in regards to ordering specific disc brakes, it will be the distance from axle face (where rotor contacts) to the edge of the seat (at axle), much the same as what is done with a 9". In general, when assembled, distance from the outer end of housing end to face of axle.

[55 Tony]

Here is where I got the terminology. Dimension "O".

[markm]

Since you bought Toms ends for impala axles and are ordering his axles designed for same its all good. His axles for non clip application have plenty of spline and may be trimmed to fit if necessary.

[55 Tony]

Since you bought Toms ends for impala axles and are ordering his axles designed for same its all good. His axles for non clip application have plenty of spline and may be trimmed to fit if necessary.

Not that I'm trying to make this more difficult than it is, but Tom is gone and his daughter doesn't know a whole lot about the business. From what she told me, she had been working in the warehouse for a while before her father passed away but doesn't know a whole lot more than pulling parts. She does know some and is learning a little but she referred me to the axle order form. I think I'm going to bolt the brakes on with an old axle and drum and try to get some measurements. I spoke to her mother when I ordered the ends, but now the daughter sounded like she is the only one there?
By the way, how would I cut one shorter? With a grinder cut off wheel and be sure to keep it cool?

[markm]

Tony, I was nervous about that myself buy a buddy of mine said my band saw would do nicely and it did. So well I kept the piece I cut off to show people. I was cutting on the 35 spline ones too.

[55 Tony]

Edit: I decided to hold off on what I wrote until I get a reply and refund for my axles.