Measuring axle length

[55 Tony]

I'm F'ed

[NickP]

I'm trying to get the proper axles from Toms so I had the daughter try putting the bearing I got with the weld on ends, and she said it slipped on the axle all the way by hand. She said it wobbles a little but I'm not sure is she means the outer part of the bearing is wobbling or the inner race is wobbling? I did also ask it she thinks the with 3 pieces of paper strips on the axle, if the bearing would still go on, and she said probably not. Does this sound like the right axle?

On the web site it says "axles for weld on end kits", but doesn't say for *what* weld on end kits. I'm just hoping it's for his.

Slips on! Yikes. Is this still going to be a C-Clip retention? If not, call the seller/supplier and let them know you have a possible issue.

[markm]

Slips on! Yikes. Is this still going to be a C-Clip retention? If not, call the seller/supplier and let them know you have a possible issue.

No c-clips with Olds bearing ends.

[markm]

How long were your old axles. Is the housing the same width now.

[55 Tony]

I'm left to half ass put this together using a different bearing that does get pressed onto the axle and then adding a shim of sorts because the other bearing isn't as wide. Either that or buy new ends again, pull the rear again, take it to get the new ends welded on again and put it back together again. F me.

[NickP]

How long were your old axles. Is the housing the same width now.

None with a 9" however the OP isn't building either.

[markm]

None with a 9" however the OP isn't building either.

What does a 9 inch have to do with it. He is building a 12 bolt with aftermarket axle ends that use press on bearings. You pro0babally newer knew that GM made 10 and 12 bolts that newer had c-c clips. For example my sisters 77 Cutlass has an 8.5 10 bolt without them.

[55 Tony]

How long were your old axles. Is the housing the same width now.
No, it's 1" wider to center the wheels.

[55 Tony]

To make things worse, I put my new cover on too early and it's "glued" so I don't want to take it off. Can anyone tell me how much room there is between the splined gears and the center rod? 1/2"?

[55 Tony]

Well I lucked out ... in a way. I won't even say what axles I got since at least someone will say they are crap, but they fit perfect into the sort of unknown new housing ends. Drove it the past two days with the new 4.10 gears. Compared to the 3.42 gears, it goes like a r*ped ape but that's just with street tires so far. Today before it got to hot out and the tranny wasn't too hot either, no doubt about it, a nice loud chirp in 3rd! Only did it once though. Sort of breaking in the gears my way, giving it a little of everything before putting the slicks on. Oh, they are Richmond gears and I can't hear any whine at all. Maybe I did something right, or maybe I got lucky? I have some other work to do and if the weather holds out tomorrow, I hope to go to the track with slicks.

[chasracer]

Tony - sounds good and glad to hear you got it squared away. Three pieces of advice but one I understand you might not want to do one now with it all together. Painting a line on the axles from the bearing surface to where the splines start is a good way of monitoring the axles. We just mask off a 1/4" wide line and shoot some rattle can white color. When the axles start twisting, it's easy to see it. Lucas H-D Gear Oils - the stuff flat works. I mix one bottle of their stuff with my regular synthetic gear oil, a lot of noise goes away on the street stuff, but I use it on the race cars too. And last, put the part number, measurements or order ticket from those axles in a safe place you will remember. Worth it when you have to order a new set years from now. Have fun!

[55 Tony]

Thanks. I thought I was going to be on the road a lot sooner that day and thought the paint may come off in the oil, so the first one I sprayed with contact cement and put a pinstripe on it. Then for the important (left) one, I forgot all about it. I figure that after going to the track I'll pull it to look for any twisting and then paint a line on it. These axles are almost as narrow toward the end of the shaft, but measuring in the splines across two gaps shows that the splined part is slightly more narrow. Although the taller part of the spline does stand up higher than the most narrow part of the shaft. So I don't know if like the old ones that any twist will be easy to see since it will twist at the spline? If that random garbage I just wrote makes any sense?

BTW, these are not C-clip eliminators, they are big F*rd ends with the tapered Timkin "set 20" bearings. Everyone wanted to sell me the ball bearing set but I insisted on the tapered ones. I am saving the bill and making a copy of it too. I also measured and wrote down all the dimensions. I did happen to use the heavy Lucas lube, and even though it says it's good for posi clutches, I added that special stuff to it also but it wasn't the GM brand. So far no chattering around sharp turns.

[chasracer]

All sounds good. On our last set of Moser axles the twist was just about the entire length of the axle. Once they reached a 25% twist, we replaced them. And in our case we run a spool so both axles were pretty close in the amount of twist they had suffered. One thing I learned is that the shorter the axle the harder it is to see the twist with out some kind of indicator. Occasionally I have seen them twist just at the spline area but that was usually stocker type stuff, not the aftermarket pieces. Last season we had a guy bring out a mid-60's Poncho with I guess a Pontiac 455+ in it. Second time shot the right axle said goodbye and the car went one way and the slick the other. The funny part was he was back out there the following week, made it to first round of eliminations before the axle signed off for the day again. I'm not sure but I would imagine that aftermarket axles were in his future after that one.

[55 Tony]

Well you guessed where I got the axles from whether you tried or not. They look a lot better than the first unknown set, but definitely not as good as the ones from Tom's, too bad those didn't fit. With my limited knowledge, Tom's looked better and considerably less expensive. Anyway these survived five passes during test and tune. Don't know if I should write about that in this thread, one of my old threads, or start a new one. Issues with traction, and considerable loss of power when hot, very considerable.

[chasracer]

Might be interesting to start a new thread with the performance information. I would like to hear more about it.

[markm]

BTW, these are not C-clip eliminators, they are big F*rd ends with the tapered Timkin "set 20" bearings. Everyone wanted to sell me the ball bearing set but I insisted on the tapered ones. I am saving the bill and making a copy of it too. I also measured and wrote down all the dimensions. I did happen to use the heavy Lucas lube, and even though it says it's good for posi clutches, I added that special stuff to it also but it wasn't the GM brand. So far no chattering around sharp turns.

Why did you want tapered roller bearings. These cars came with ball and so did many others in the 50s and 60s.

[55 Tony]

Yep, back in the 50's and 60's they were common, there is a reason they aren't used in new cars now. Tapered roller bearings are superior to ball bearings. Much more surface area, like about 85% more? Plus the taper is much better for lateral forces.

[chevynut]

Yep, back in the 50's and 60's they were common, there is a reason they aren't used in new cars now. Tapered roller bearings are superior to ball bearings. Much more surface area, like about 85% more? Plus the taper is much better for lateral forces.

Welcome to the 21st century. Some of us actually made it. :D

[Rick_L]

A single tapered roller bearing takes thrust only in one direction. One way to get thrust control in both directions is to use a pair of them in opposing directions, as is done on the front end of many cars. So how do you get thrust control in both directions on a rear axle?

On the other hand many but not all single ball bearings can take thrust in both directions. Neither one has much moment (bending) capability.

I don't know how you can say either one is better. Depends on what you need to do. Besides the thrust issue, tapered rollers generally have more capacity and longer life for a given size. But ball bearings have less rolling resistance. That's why they have come back into favor in recent years.

[markm]

Falls under the topic of if its not broke, don't fix it, either is better than c-clips.

[55 Tony]

At the two places I talked to about the ball vs tapered roller bearings, they both said the normally sell the ball to street/strip and the tapered rollers to offroad trucks. I would think that the forces applied to the bearings on a good launch would be greater than rock climbing. Or as I'm writing it comes to mind that a lot of off road trucks also have big wheel spacers and the forces from that would be a lot.

As far as lateral forces, in a hard turn the outside wheel would take a lot more of the load on the tapered bearing that is *working* in the direction.

I was unaware of ball bearings making a comeback. Is this in street cars? Or race cars looking to loose 0.0001 of a second on the track?

[markm]

I have been around a lot of drag cars in my time and they all have ball bearing. I am sure the comeback is due to the ridicules CAFE restrictions the Obummer EPA enacted.

[55 Tony]

I have been around a lot of drag cars in my time and they all have ball bearing. I am sure the comeback is due to the ridicules CAFE restrictions the Obummer EPA enacted.

As I've said many times before, I only go to the drag strip for fun. Sure it's cool to win a race, but like last Saturday, all I did was 5 runs during the tune and test. (or is that test and tune?) My car is STREET/strip. I didn't even go far last week on the road, but still the miles on it would be about 98% street and maybe, just maybe 2% strip.

[Rick_L]

I should clarify, the return to ball bearings has been for the front hubs. This is to lower the rolling resistance, indeed it's for the fuel mileage standards. Started way before Obama though, been happening for 20 years or so.

[55 Tony]

Well maybe I screwed up, it wouldn't be the first time and it won't be the last. :)

[markm]

I should clarify, the return to ball bearings has been for the front hubs. This is to lower the rolling resistance, indeed it's for the fuel mileage standards. Started way before Obama though, been happening for 20 years or so.

Wouldn't the came apply to rear hubs on fwd cars, pretty sure most rwd stuff has c-clips on those few models.

[Rick_L]

Of course it would.

For some time now Corvettes have had a sealed front hub assembly with two ball bearings, factory preloaded and lubed. 2WD pickups have had them almost as long. But I'd guess that FWD cars have had that arrangement on the rear for much longer. These setups are not serviceable, you have to buy a new hub if there's a problem. And that's where the pain comes because they cost far more than tapered roller bearings.


And you're right, C-clip stuff has a non-tapered roller bearing. The c-clip is what takes the thrust load.

[chevynut]

A lot of unitized hubs are made with tapered roller bearings as far as I can tell. Timken makes a lot of them. I'm not sure what the OEM C4 stuff uses. I think SKF uses ball bearings quite a bit.

https://www.timken.com/products/timken-engineered-bearings/premium-wheel-hub-units/


https://www.timken.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/Premium-Wheel-Hub-Units-340x257.jpg

[55 Tony]

And you're right, C-clip stuff has a non-tapered roller bearing. The c-clip is what takes the thrust load.

The c-clip one way and the center pin/shaft the other way right?