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Thread: Have questions about C4 Corvette suspensions for your Tri5? Ask them here!

  1. #21
    Registered Member oceangoer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chevynut View Post
    Sorry, I don't understand your question. What rear upper control arm are you talking about? I use the stock C4 suspension geometry front and rear with the exception of the dropped rear toe adjuster which relocates the pivot points lower. I'm not sure how that affects the toe change, but Newman has used it on hundreds of builds, as have others, so it doesn't concern me.

    I'm referring to the rear upper control arm (not the lower) "Dog Bone" that sits at 10 degrees relative to horizontal plane. The recommendations that I get are to lower to 8 degrees.

    I'll be flipping the toe rods upside down a well, and cutting the spring perches of the rear spindles.

    How are you handling the Ackerman with the longer WB, and does it remain a Positive ??



    I rebuilt my Dana 44 and it wasn't that expensive even with the new 4.10 Viper (Dana) gears. I may have had $600 or so in it including the new gears (bought on eBay) and paying the local shop to set the ring and pinion up for me. They can be had for $1000 or so for the differential/batwing alone, and the Dutchman costs $1250 for just the housing...then you have to get the carrier, gears, mounts, and all the other parts needed. I'm betting you're into it for $3000 when it's all said and done. Then you'll need custom halfshafts, strut rods, etc. How do you plan to deal with the toe adjuster? Lots of custom fab work to implement that. Why not go with the Newman Dana 44 case or one from Street Shop? As far as strength, I have read that the Dana Super 44 or Dana 44 HD as it's often called is as strong as a 12 bolt GM rearend. And it's reported that the 12 bolt is as strong as a 9" Ford rear but I don't know for sure. Do you know the torque rating on a 9" differential?

    I haven't found any Dana 44 complete for that low of a price. Narrowing the half shafts depends on wheel offset or typically each half shaft will require slightly over and inch cut, I don't have that number handle , My adjustable camber rods will remain original length, but a lower cradle wilt need to be fabricated. dana 44 with bat wing,,Locally their $1800.

    I spoke with Newman a month or so ago, nice long conversation. He is retired and company is closed. He did tell me that he still had a few cases and other parts at that time ,. But he did not return my email and his web site seems to be shut down.



    You should be at about 60" with a 2" narrower wheel mounting surface. Curious why you didn't go to 59" which is closer to stock tri5 width after going thru all that work. Have you checked into the kits that Flat Out Engineering offers for trucks? Maybe one of those would work and save you some fab time.
    Yes, I know Don well, he's a great resource. I recently sent Don my excess collection of C4 suspensions parts that I don't need. I' getting quite a few small parts from Don. @ inch cut works for y wheel selection and the Mustang II rach is exactly 2 inches narrower and the pivot points.

  2. #22
    Registered Member chevynut's Avatar
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    I'm referring to the rear upper control arm (not the lower) "Dog Bone" that sits at 10 degrees relative to horizontal plane. The recommendations that I get are to lower to 8 degrees.
    I set the upper dogbone at about level at ride height, which is about as high as I can go the way I do it. If you try to put it any higher in front it's above the frame. I looked at what others have done there and Newman's was about the same as mine as far as I can tell. I don't know where guys are getting 8-10 degrees or how they're doing it.

    I'll be flipping the toe rods upside down a well, and cutting the spring perches of the rear spindles.
    Have you figured out how to handle the taper in the knuckles? I'm leaving the spring mounts on just in case for whatever reason I end up wanting to go back to a stock spring.

    How are you handling the Ackerman with the longer WB, and does it remain a Positive ??
    I'm not worrying about it. There are hundreds of C4 tri5s on the road and I've heard no complaints about Ackerman. Narrowing the front suspension makes it even worse.

    The only way I know of to handle it is to shorten the wheelbase or change the steering arm angle. I know on their C5/6 front ends Morrison cuts off the steering arms and installs new ones. Part of that is to lower the rack, and I assume they also correct the Ackerman but not sure about that. I can't imagine they have different steering arms for every wheelbase.

    Post some pics when you can.


    Quote Originally Posted by oceangoer View Post
    Yes, I know Don well, he's a great resource. I recently sent Don my excess collection of C4 suspensions parts that I don't need. I' getting quite a few small parts from Don. @ inch cut works for y wheel selection and the Mustang II rach is exactly 2 inches narrower and the pivot points.
    56 Nomad, Ramjet 502, Viper 6-speed T56, C4 Corvette front and rear suspension


    Other vehicles:

    56 Chevy 2-door BelAir sedan
    56 Chevy 210 4-door sedan
    57 Chevy 210 4-door sedan
    1962 327/340HP Corvette
    1961 Willys CJ3B Jeep
    2001 Porsche Boxster S
    2003 Chevy Silverado 2500 HD Duramax
    2019 GMC Sierra Denali Duramax

  3. #23
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    I'm still trying to wrap my head around the "Ackermann principal" There is a ton of info out on the subject. But generally I would think a short wheelbase needs much more Ackermann than something long like a bus. So, whether it's better or worse, moving a C4 suspension to a longer wheelbase, would tend to have more inner wheel steering angle than is needs? At least it will turn tighter corners that way in a parking lot. Or is it the other way around? Not that I would attemp to change it, just wondered what the effect might be on handling overall.
    Last edited by 55 Rescue Dog; 10-16-2016 at 05:27 AM.

  4. #24
    Registered Member oceangoer's Avatar
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    Chevynut,

    I thought you know that This frame and suspension isn't going n my '56 210. I've decided to leave Her, Betty, alone and quit the every Winter "$$$ improvements" cycle that I've been doing for a decade. It's time to replace the headers , the plating is failing and headers are now available for the Rack & Pinion steering. But no hurry.

    Rear control arms, " Dog Bones"

    I typed that incorrectly. The OEM spec that I have is the "Lower Control Arm" is set at 10 degrees. Measuring my C4 Convert, there's a ~8 degrees difference, placing the upper a 2 degrees. But that's an estimate because both control arms are OEM and still have the rough casting parting edges making measuring them actually difficult.

    You are correct in that the upper control arm will be close to level. Someday I might get deeper into this, but as long as I have resonable anti-squat I'll be happy. I'm still stumbling "Mentally" over the IC (instant center) at 34.7 horz and 17 vert, if that really needs to be lowered. Prob not.... The control arm mounting plate will be mounted on the frame Kick-Up and removable, I will be able to raise, lower or insert spacer plates if there's ever an issue. Simple enough to do this now than latter after.

    Rear Spindle Toe in mounting hole Taper,

    Yes, Don @ Flat Out has a great Toe Flip Kit and He includes tapers just for this issue. Take a look at the attached photo, I have more photos and can take a few more when my parts arrive, just let me know. I might be cramped for space, height, so We may drill the taper and insert a sleeve. I'll send you photos once I'm up and able to get back in my mini shop, Total Knee replacement next week at the V.A.. I hope to receive these components and front cross member next week. I still need to order the rear cross member from Dutchman's.


    Ackerman

    Yes, agree. I've seen so many custom and modified frames that if we all followed Ackerman, they wouldn't be close to derivable. I'm mostly concerned retaining Positive Ackerman resulting in positive toe-in when driving through a corner. We have some of the old Wheel Plates with a degree wheel, there crude but time will tell. I've heard and read about mod's on the C5/6 steering arms, but I don't recall seeing any on C4's. But, this isn't a endurance race car, I just need a safe and responsive driver.

    Newman and others keep telling me Ackerman isn't an issue with C4's and longer a wheelbase. But you know since your also an Engineer, It's just something that I need to know.

    I've been so busy finished my new home and small shop that I haven't watched your Nomad progress. Hope that going well! My '56 is a great driver, but she's just a stock body, I don't have the time nor patience to complete the workmanship and detail like yours.

    I'll keep you up to date when we get started, photos too. Steve (lifelong friend a M.E. like you) is extremely detailed and will be doing the CAD design of my frame rails on our Solid Works. He's designed many a frame, and it's so nice to have him keeping me to such a high standard.

    Thanks,

    Michael..






    C4 Toe Bar flipped-4.jpg

  5. #25
    Registered Member chevynut's Avatar
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    Oceangoer, I'd be interested to see that toe adjuster flip kit...they don't show it on their site. Newman was still selling them but his site is completely shut down now. I need a source for them for my customers or else I'll have to put a kit together myself, which I really don't want to do. The picture you posted looks just like Newman's kit. When you get your toe flip kit could you send a pic of the kit contents to my email Lnobi53@yahoo.com?

    This is the flip kit they show, and it looks like the bushing has no taper. I'm not sure what the other piece is for either.



    Looks like he's also figured out how to make new lines for the rack but the pics aren't very clear. I'm working on re-plumbing mine now and can't find anyone to make a good double flare at the cylinder end so I'm trying to figure out what to do. The valve end has a weird 0-ring flare that nobody can do either, so I'm using an AN adapter there.

    Thanks!
    56 Nomad, Ramjet 502, Viper 6-speed T56, C4 Corvette front and rear suspension


    Other vehicles:

    56 Chevy 2-door BelAir sedan
    56 Chevy 210 4-door sedan
    57 Chevy 210 4-door sedan
    1962 327/340HP Corvette
    1961 Willys CJ3B Jeep
    2001 Porsche Boxster S
    2003 Chevy Silverado 2500 HD Duramax
    2019 GMC Sierra Denali Duramax

  6. #26
    Registered Member NickP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chevynut View Post
    Oceangoer, I'd be interested to see that toe adjuster flip kit...they don't show it on their site. Newman was still selling them but his site is completely shut down now. I need a source for them for my customers or else I'll have to put a kit together myself, which I really don't want to do. The picture you posted looks just like Newman's kit. When you get your toe flip kit could you send a pic of the kit contents to my email Lnobi53@yahoo.com?

    This is the flip kit they show, and it looks like the bushing has no taper. I'm not sure what the other piece is for either.



    Looks like he's also figured out how to make new lines for the rack but the pics aren't very clear. I'm working on re-plumbing mine now and can't find anyone to make a good double flare at the cylinder end so I'm trying to figure out what to do. The valve end has a weird 0-ring flare that nobody can do either, so I'm using an AN adapter there.

    Thanks!
    Laszlo, I thought I sent you all of the images and dimensions from Newman's stuff.

  7. #27
    Registered Member chevynut's Avatar
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    Nick, you might have but I don't recall. What kind of file was it? I have seen several of Newman's rear steer kits and I have a few tapered bushings that Gene from CT made me years ago but they're for me.

    I don't understand what that is in the FOE picture. It looks like a sleeve you'd put in the knuckle to invert the taper, not eliminate it. But if you don't move the rods down at the inboard end as well it screws things up, I think.

    How did you do yours, or did you use Newman's too? Also, how did you deal with the rack lines?
    56 Nomad, Ramjet 502, Viper 6-speed T56, C4 Corvette front and rear suspension


    Other vehicles:

    56 Chevy 2-door BelAir sedan
    56 Chevy 210 4-door sedan
    57 Chevy 210 4-door sedan
    1962 327/340HP Corvette
    1961 Willys CJ3B Jeep
    2001 Porsche Boxster S
    2003 Chevy Silverado 2500 HD Duramax
    2019 GMC Sierra Denali Duramax

  8. #28
    Registered Member oceangoer's Avatar
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  9. #29
    Registered Member NickP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chevynut View Post
    Nick, you might have but I don't recall. What kind of file was it? I have seen several of Newman's rear steer kits and I have a few tapered bushings that Gene from CT made me years ago but they're for me.

    I don't understand what that is in the FOE picture. It looks like a sleeve you'd put in the knuckle to invert the taper, not eliminate it. But if you don't move the rods down at the inboard end as well it screws things up, I think.

    How did you do yours, or did you use Newman's too? Also, how did you deal with the rack lines?
    pdf and jpg I imagine - will look on shop computer. R&P Lines were inside the space between back of balancer and block - very close fit. I don't quite follow that image either. The walls don't look tapered.


  10. #30
    Registered Member chevynut's Avatar
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    Thanks for the pics guys. Michael, your chassis looks great! Your rear toe bar setup looks almost identical to Newman's kit, even the design of the aluminum center mount, with the exception that it's machined instead of cast aluminum. Is that the kit FOE is selling? I don't see anything like that on their product page, just the pic I posted. Here's Newman's:

    newman6.jpg

    Nick, yours looks awesome too! Did Calvin use a BBC in that chassis? My SBC and LS engine dampers sit right smack over the top of that fitting and line. I thought Newman rotated the rack cylinder but I got to looking at his stuff recently and I noticed that one of the fittings is on top and the other was somehow moved to the bottom. I wonder how he did that.

    newman2.jpg

    BTW, I designed a rear toe bracket almost identical to yours and I don't remember seeing it before I designed it...great minds think alike, huh? I got one prototype from my laser guy to test.

    Did you build the rear steer assembly from scratch? Mine will have to be narrowed so I can't really buy a kit. I'll have to get or make some shorter rods.
    Last edited by chevynut; 10-17-2016 at 07:18 AM.
    56 Nomad, Ramjet 502, Viper 6-speed T56, C4 Corvette front and rear suspension


    Other vehicles:

    56 Chevy 2-door BelAir sedan
    56 Chevy 210 4-door sedan
    57 Chevy 210 4-door sedan
    1962 327/340HP Corvette
    1961 Willys CJ3B Jeep
    2001 Porsche Boxster S
    2003 Chevy Silverado 2500 HD Duramax
    2019 GMC Sierra Denali Duramax

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