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Thread: Muncie vs the World

  1. #1
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    Muncie vs the World

    OK-

    Here's the thread on Muncie transmissions versus the rest of the universe.

    Let me start by saying give me an M20, let me make a few mods, run it and tell me that there isnt anything sweeter for the money. They are simple, and with the right mods (big bearings, torq locks, rigid center plate) can be pretty stout.

    I remain a fan.

    Scorp

  2. #2
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    If you like the Muncie gear ratios and have rebuilt it correctly with the 21st century fixes, there's no problem with a Muncie for street use.

    On the other hand it's the 21st century and 5 and 6 speed transmissions are available which do offer more performance. Overdrive is a great thing.

  3. #3
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    Sure overdrive is great, but adds weight, and when your driving the shit out of your car, all you need is a good 4-speed/shifter, which is where the fun is at!. In 5th, and 6th gear the air drag takes over, and then you are just cruising. NASCAR does pretty good with 4 gears.
    You don't need a transmission jack to take a Muncie out either, and it can be removed/repaired, and installed in minutes, which I know has been done many times between heats at the track by some people.
    Last edited by 55 Rescue Dog; 06-01-2019 at 03:14 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rick_L View Post
    If you like the Muncie gear ratios and have rebuilt it correctly with the 21st century fixes, there's no problem with a Muncie for street use.

    On the other hand it's the 21st century and 5 and 6 speed transmissions are available which do offer more performance. Overdrive is a great thing.

    Yes to both posts #1 & #2. The Muncie M20 is a good tranny no modifications necessary. In fact I prefer the Corvette Muncie shifter to the Hurst, just feels nice. If Muncie had an overdrive then there would be less interest on my part for a Tremec. Muncie shifter position is not conducive to the bench seat in forward position and my Nomad RPM’s were to high at highway speeds being the reasons for me to seek a Tremec. Muncie M20 and Tremec TKO 600 gear spacing is good. But I found the Muncie M21 spacing too close for normal street driving. True the rear end ratio has a lot to do with the tranny gear spacing. My preference for M20 with 3.55 gears vs the M21 with 3.73 because of the stronger multiplication in 1 st gear and a bit nicer at highway speeds.

    But now that I have the Tremec with forward shift position, I’m glad I made the switch. I find the shifting smoother with less effort, excellent gear spacing and less revs and noise on the highway. But it’s not a fair comparison between two designs that are 50 years apart.

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    The Muncie was hard to beat, strong with a couple gear ratios. Through the years I used and ended up collecting a few: I have 2 in cars, 13 rebuilt ones on the shelf, 2 more waiting on some case machine, another 8 or 9 in parts. They are m20, m21 and m22 units. I’ll obviously never use them all, but weren’t expensive when acquired.

    The last few years I’ve moved on to T56s and Tremec magnums, having a couple each in cars. I really like the close ratio magnums, with the gear spacing and the ease of shifting, and a 700ftlb rating doesn’t hurt.

  6. #6
    Registered Member chevynut's Avatar
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    I think it's hard to match internal shift rails with forks attached directly to them and just a small socket for the shift lever with an external shifter with sloppy rods that go out of adjustment as they wear. The Tremec design is far superior to any Muncie imo. If you want to cut weight, stop eating cheeseburgers.

    Clearly if ALL you do is race you don't need an overdrive transmission. There's a lot of stuff you don't need like radios, A/C or power anything. But most guys aren't building race cars, they're building performance cars for the street that you can drive on the highway at 80 MPH and have a lot of the comforts and conveniences of a new car. That's where the overdrive transmissions and all the modern electronics really shine.
    56 Nomad, Ramjet 502, Viper 6-speed T56, C4 Corvette front and rear suspension


    Other vehicles:

    56 Chevy 2-door BelAir sedan
    56 Chevy 210 4-door sedan
    57 Chevy 210 4-door sedan
    1962 327/340HP Corvette
    1961 Willys CJ3B Jeep
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    2003 Chevy Silverado 2500 HD Duramax
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    Interesting thing on weight. Sure Tremec weight is way more than Muncie. But the 50’s and 60’s cars were way lighter than the performance models today. My 65 vette is under 3000 lbs a new one is like 3600, my 68 Camaro was 2960 lbs and new Camaro is over 4200 lbs. Using a modern LS/LT and Tremec, will eat the lunch of same tri five with a big block and Muncie. So much can be gained from drive trains from the past 50 years from the heavy weight cars produced today shoved into tri fives.

  8. #8
    Registered Member chevynut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gmvette View Post
    Interesting thing on weight. Sure Tremec weight is way more than Muncie.
    I don't know what "way more" means, but I know a T56 weighs 115 pounds, a TKO weighs 105 pounds, and a muncie weighs about 85 pounds. That's only a 20-30 pound difference and if you were really concerned about weight it could easily be made up elsewhere. And like I said, a race car doesn't need overdrive. Not many of us are building race cars.

    My 65 vette is under 3000 lbs a new one is like 3600, my 68 Camaro was 2960 lbs and new Camaro is over 4200 lbs.
    The weight difference is partly due to engines being aluminum now, but a lot of it has to do with all the power options and safety equipment too. A 12-way power bucket seat is way heavier than a manual power bucket seat. Then you have power window motors, power door locks, better stereos with multiple speakers, sound deadening, lots more wiring and electronics, safety features, and a lot more. When you look at the difference between a '68 Camaro and a 2019 Camaro, there's no comparison when it comes to the interior comforts and options. All that stuff adds up.

    If you're building a car to race, weight matters. If you're building one to cruise and handle well on curves, it doesn't matter as much. I used to think about how much my Nomad is going to weigh, but I don't really care anymore. It's not a race car. Fretting over the weight of a street car is like fretting over gas mileage of a race car.
    56 Nomad, Ramjet 502, Viper 6-speed T56, C4 Corvette front and rear suspension


    Other vehicles:

    56 Chevy 2-door BelAir sedan
    56 Chevy 210 4-door sedan
    57 Chevy 210 4-door sedan
    1962 327/340HP Corvette
    1961 Willys CJ3B Jeep
    2001 Porsche Boxster S
    2003 Chevy Silverado 2500 HD Duramax
    2019 GMC Sierra Denali Duramax

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gmvette View Post
    Interesting thing on weight. Sure Tremec weight is way more than Muncie. But the 50’s and 60’s cars were way lighter than the performance models today. My 65 vette is under 3000 lbs a new one is like 3600, my 68 Camaro was 2960 lbs and new Camaro is over 4200 lbs. Using a modern LS/LT and Tremec, will eat the lunch of same tri five with a big block and Muncie. So much can be gained from drive trains from the past 50 years from the heavy weight cars produced today shoved into tri fives.
    My 67 SS 350 with a Super T-10 and a 12 bolt with ps, pb, disk brakes &alum intake tips the scales at 3360, my 74 Z28 with 4 speed is 3750 with AC, I think new ones are about 4400.

  10. #10
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    A twenty to twenty five percent increase in tranny weight is substantial. The size of a Tremec TKO is about the same percentage over a Muncie. I’m not sure how one compares to the other in torque capacity, efficiency and longevity. The 30 pounds added if done all over the car quickly gets you over 4200 pounds. It would just seem to me putting more power in to a street rod only to counter act it by making it overly heavy defeats the purpose. I like spirited driving as well as the next guy but weight is counter intuitive to that goal in MHO. Newer heavy cars seem to handle and perform great. But think how much more enhanced they would be with less weight. Drive trains are not over all heavy, but anti crash structures and DOT dictates puts on the pounds.

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