One Piece Nomad Liftgate / Tailgate

[Michaelmotorcycle]

So I replaced my tailpan about a year ago and upon doing so I had to remove my tailgate and hinges. Once I finished mocking up the tailpan and got it painted, I became fixated on the idea of making a one piece liftgate (like the sedan deliveries). I have seen a few Nomads with thier custom made one piece liftgates/tailgates. I am indecision about this because about three years ago I purchased a rechromed/straightened liftgate from Michael Bakotich (MadMook) thinking that it would my make me content with the liftgate area and I do not want to modify it (I'm afraid of ruining it). From what information I gathered, one Nomad I saw seemed as though they replaced the stock liftgate portion with a modified wagon liftgate and then connected it to the the tailgate (I thought this was ugly in my own opinion). I saw another where a bracket was fabricated so that it basically was a skeleton for the stock liftgate and tailgate to bolt up to. This bracket would connect to the liftgate hinges and the gas struts so that no stress was put on the stock liftgate and tailgate (I really liked this idea; however, this required removing some material from the liftgate and mine is already rechromed so I am really discouraged from doing this). I remember reading a post on a thread where someone said that a Nomad owner in Long Beach, CA had made one out of fiberglass. I'd really like to ask them how well it held together (did it crack? did they install all of the trim? what did they do with the liftgate portion since you can't chrome fiberglass?). If I remember correctly, the "Glomad" (Snap-on sponsored Nomad) had a fiberglass liftgate; however, I called the company they used to purchase the fiberglass parts (doors, front clip, tailgate/liftgate) and they said they did not make a fiberglass tailgate/liftgate for the Nomad. They did make a fiberglass one piece liftgate for a sedan delivery (that works out for all you wagon folks). I figured that I would bring this up since I hadn't seen any posting on it.

[chevynut]

Welcome to the site Michael. Personally I love the look of the stock chrome liftgate and tailgate on a Nomad. The only thing I'd like to do is remove the lower hinges, so they're not visible. I don't know of any way to do that cleanly and easily.

I do recall seeing someone connect the liftgate to the tailgate, though. Not sure how tough that would be.

[Michaelmotorcycle]

Welcome to the site Michael. Personally I love the look of the stock chrome liftgate and tailgate on a Nomad. The only thing I'd like to do is remove the lower hinges, so they're not visible. I don't know of any way to do that cleanly and easily.

I do recall seeing someone connect the liftgate to the tailgate, though. Not sure how tough that would be.

I thought I loved my stock liftgate and tailgate until I had to load and unload some items from the cargo area (hated overextending myself over the tailgate and the cables that are in the way). I fell in love with the ease I could use to load the back of a family van with a one piece tailgate (my wife has a 2007 Chryseler Town and Country which is easy to load and unload in the cargo area with its one piece liftgate). So now I am rethinking how I want to go about making my stock liftgate and tailgate into one piece. I am thinking that I will eliminate the tailgate hinges as well (unless I just leave them and cut the hinge pin to allow the one piece liftgate to open and close).

[Michaelmotorcycle]

So I inquired with VFN Fiberglass (the company that made the front clip and doors for the Snap-on sponsored Nomad "Glomad") about making a One-Piece Nomad Liftgate. They said they would make it for about $600; however, they would need a Liftgate and Tailgate so that they could create the molds. I am passing on since I do not have a spare liftgate and tailgate at this time. Just wanted to pass this on in case any one wanted to follow up on this.

Hi Michael.

We can make one for you, however to do so, we would need the actual part to make a mold from.
As you're aware, making molds is both costly and time consuming. Because of these reasons, we would charge $600.00 to help recover some of our costs involved in making this piece for you.

We unfortunately could not offer them in carbon at this point....
Due to the amount of work we see in the back, it is generally difficult to remove one guy from our general production area to devote them fully to carbon fiber.
There are times when we do take limited carbon work, but I don't see that happening until end of October or November...and that's not a definite. Not sure if he'd be willing to make this guy in carbon, as we generally stick with flat trunks and hoods to keep our normal production work on time.

If you're interested in sending one up, please let me know and I can work with you to make further arrangements.

Thanks.
Jean

[chevynut]

Wow $600 is cheap, imo. I'll bet Madmook could hep you with getting parts for the molds. Once the mold is made, I assume they could build many of them.

[Michaelmotorcycle]

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I got to thinking some more and wondered about those "steel" liftgate frames that were made customly by some fellow Nomad owners. I was under the assumption that the original potmetal liftgate was adapted to mount on the "steel" liftgate frame. I also assumed that the stock tailgate would mount to the "steel" liftgate frame as well. Now I wonder if there has been anyone that just made a "stainless steel" liftgate frame that had the exact same exterior contours as the original potmetal liftgate frame and also had been lengthened to accept the tailgate (so that the tailgate could be mounted to it and act as a "one-piece liftgate").

Hey Madmook, with all the stainless steel reproduction parts you are making, do you planning on doing something like this anytime soon?

I just want a "one-piece" liftgate.

[Romax55]

The one-piece rear gate is the most refreshing idea on this forum ; hope you go for it , and get rid of those dumb-looking lower hinges at the same time . There's not that much engineering to make a mold of the rear gates yourself , maybe a bit messy , but the idea is excellent . The fiberglass rear gate would be a bunch lighter too , even with a tube frame inside it. Nobody knows what those Nomad rear gates are really like till they've tried to load and unload from them . You're right ; the new Caravans make the Nomad gates look bad . Keep us posted . Be safe...Bob.

[chevynut]

It wouldn't be that hard to do with a stock tailgate and liftgate, if you were willing to modify them. Sure, it could be made from fiberglass....at least the lower gate. Why not pay the $600 and get one made? To me that's cheap for what you're trying to do. It wouldn't be difficult to tie the two together either. There was someone who did just this recently. I think I could figure out how to do it if I wanted to. It's been done before.

A stainless steel liftgate would be an expensive proposition, IMO. Especially if it was anything like the stock one.

[kcwildman]

Interesting topic, we have a 56 in Kansas City that a shop built a one piece. I called him and asked about doing mine and he said $3500. Looked good and worked well except the sides and top of the lift gate were painted and I couldn't pull the trigger. Decided to try and design a hidden hinge to clean up the back. I think the nomad I am speaking about sold last year at Good Guys but I could get you in touch with the owner and the fabricator if interested.

[Rick_L]

I think that making the Nomad liftgate/tailgate one piece with hinges at the top and keeping some style to it is darn near impossible. Even a fiberglass tailgate attached to a stock looking liftgate is going to have some serious structural challenges. I also think that a $600 fiberglass replica would take more than that again in finish work to look right.

What I would look into for a unique look and practicality would be a window that rolls down into the tailgate and a fixed liftgate frame that has a channel for the window. Like a Suburban or Tahoe. It would be a lot of custom work but the end result would be practical.

[chevynut]

I think that making the Nomad liftgate/tailgate one piece with hinges at the top and keeping some style to it is darn near impossible.


Rick, I tend to disagree. I don't think it would be that difficult to do, and it's been done before. I'm pretty sure I could do it if I wanted to. ;) Heck, Chevy did it with the delivery!

I think a roll-down window would be a lot harder to do.

[Rick_L]

What I'm talking about is not having to rely on an original pot metal or brass liftgate as a structural member. A delivery liftgate is way different. All steel and has some structural shape.

If you're confident, get going and post some photos.

[Michaelmotorcycle]

What I'm talking about is not having to rely on an original pot metal or brass liftgate as a structural member. A delivery liftgate is way different. All steel and has some structural shape.

If you're confident, get going and post some photos.

;)AWWWWWWWW SHHHHHHHHHHHUCKY DUCKY!! :p

:)You both beat me to posting a new post here! (cool!).:D

I have had many thoughts marinating in the back of my mind on different ways to go about making this onepiece liftgate. I have come to realize that I want to retain my original tailgate and original liftgate for several reasons. Simply put, I can reduce the amount of custom fabrication needed for the conversion and I don’t have to scrap my shiny investment in potmetal (my liftgate straightened and restored by madmook). Okay, after looking over the pics of other nomads with onepiece liftgates and thinking over particular concerns I have for each, this is what I am considering to attempt. I am thinking of welding together a onepiece liftgate frame for the stock potmetal liftgate and stock tailgate to mount onto. This onepiece frame will basically be made from 7 different pieces that would require welding (two of the seven pieces will be my nomad’s stock liftgate hinges). This one piece frame will also require removal of some material from the stock potmetal liftgate (I cringe as I type that) and also the long horizontal lower interior molding that mounts to the liftgate.

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I am reluctant to take apart my Nomad (for a lengthy job such as this one) because when ever I do, I tend to get busy and then my Nomad just sits disassembled for months because it is apart and I am unable to drive it as well. All sorts of things have happened to other trifives I have owned in the past. I have had family members kids wanting to play in there, cat decides to urinate on my interior, rats make it their home, spider webs everwhere,….you get the idea). Currently I find myself only having time to do simple 1-day remove and replace work days on the Nomad when I do work on it (or I just wash and polish). Other than that, I’d rather be driving it when I do get time to enjoy my Nomad.

So…if anyone has laying around a spare tailgate and liftgate….what I need is:
The weight of a fully assembled Nomad tailgate (minus hinges if possible - if you can wiegh a liftgate, just let me know how much it is assembled/disassembled)
The weight of a fully assembled Nomad liftgate (minus liftgate gas struts or stock latching supports if possible-again, just let me know how much together it is)

I found various gas spring rate calculator's online and knowing the total weight of the stock liftgate and tailgate will be needed in determining the pressure rating the onepiece liftgate gas struts will require.

Another consideration…
How do I determine if the stock liftgate hinges were heat treated to strengthen them? Is it possible to weld on heat treated materials and also retain their strengthened properties? I don’t want to go through all the effort of fabricating the seven pieces only to have the liftgate begin showing stress cracks at some point. That would really upset me. I have this concern because someone had commented that they had seen stress cracks on the onepiece liftgate for a blue Nomad turned Sedan Delivery (it had a surfboard on the roof). I am aware that this liftgate is going to be heavy (I'm guessing 80 to 100 lbs) and I want to be sure I design a onepiece liftgate frame that will handle the load it will have to operate under.

I am also strongly considering to relocate the liftgate supports to mount in a similar fashion as they do on a 2007 Chyseler Town and Country.

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I am considering mounting the bottom of the gas strut where the steel cable mounts on the tailgate, and the top portion of the gas strut will mount near the roof of the body of the Nomad.

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I am leary using my gas supports in their current stock location for the onepiece liftgate. The only way I would continue to use them is if I could determine that I can safely do so without any future issue of twisting, tweaking, or excess stress to the onepiece frame. I did find some sites that give formulas to calculate spring rates; however, I need to get all the measurements and the total weight of the one piece liftgate to begin calculating.

Below are links to sites I have found so far:

http://www.springmasters.nl/calculations.html
http://www.engineeringexchange.com/forum/topics/gas-spring-design-calculations

[Michaelmotorcycle]

Okay, so I'm gonna digress a little on the idea I have so far on the frame. In the picture below, the red portion will be a metal rod that will handle the stress that was applied the stock liftgate by the torsion rod springs.

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Even though the torsion rod springs are removed from my Nomad, I plan to have the liftgate opened for several hours when at car shows and drive in theatres. So I need to be sure that the top portion does not twist. When I purchased my restored and straightened liftgate from madmook, he said not to leave the liftgate open for long periods of time because it is still potmetal and will twist again. The red rod I have outlined will be three pieces - two of which will be the stock Nomad liftgate hinges. The side supports of the liftgate will have to be fabricated from angle iron and then welded to the top red rod that is made of three pieces. The fabricated side supports will need to extend into the tailgate. I am thinking of mounting the tailgate to the side supports by utilizing the bolts that mount the cable and the latch. I am uncertain if I should thread the extended side support and remove the two or three of welded in place nuts in the same row, or if I should leave the nuts and install extra long bolts and just slide the extended side support onto the threads sticking out of the nuts, and then tighten down the extended side bracket with nylon lock nuts.

[Michaelmotorcycle]

OK, I refined my idea a little more as my plan to weld on my stock liftgate hinges has not been sitting well with me. I noticed that Madmook made some and they are stainless (I had been thinking of using stainless material for the frame I want to build). If I got a set of Madmook's hinges (getting them without being welded together would actually be what I prefer since I am going to be welding my frame to them), then I could save myself a step in having to fabricate my own hinges and also having to weld together the top five-pieces, two of which would be my hinges. Hey Madmook, what kind of stainless steel are you using for the hinges and what options as far as stronger stainless steel available could you make the hinge out of? I'd be interested in a set; however, I'd want to research the strength of the material the hinge will be made out of. I just want to be certain it will handle all of the weight from the frame, liftgate, and tailgate under under a hot CA summer day (say 110 degrees Farenheit worst case scenario).

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[Michaelmotorcycle]

Rick, I tend to disagree. I don't think it would be that difficult to do, and it's been done before. I'm pretty sure I could do it if I wanted to. ;) Heck, Chevy did it with the delivery!

I think a roll-down window would be a lot harder to do.

:idea:You got me thinking about the Delivery's swing arm on the liftgate hinge. I noticed that the Delivery's swing arm is much wider. I'm now considering asking madmook to make a wider one (I keep getting these ideas just after I submit a post....I'm sure when someone reads my posts it will drive them a little batty to follow). :-(
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I am thinking that the Nomad's liftgate hinge swing arm will need to be widened to strengthen the hinge and prevent twisting and tweeking of the custom fabricated liftgate frame. Since the potmetal liftgate will now only be a cosmetic part, I think only the two outter hinge bolts on each hinge would be needed (that and also the fact that a widened swing arm will overlap the two inner bolt holes).

Below is an example of what I am talking about:

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[chevynut]

Michael, personally I think you're worrying too much about the hinge strength. They are not hardened, I'm sure, but just plain mild steel. However, making them wider if it's easy is not a bad idea. I'd actually be more worried about the strength of the bolt threads in the liftgate. I would not eliminate any of the bolts, and I would probably heli-coil all of them.

One thing I'd be thinking about is whether you have room for a gas cylinder once you put the metal frame on the tailgate and liftgate. I do think you should attach the gas strut to the tailgate, and not rely on the liftgate to hold the tailgate up. You want to take as much stress off the liftgate as you can. I would attach the strut as low as practical on the tailgate, as they did on the Chrysler you posted. I would try to almost "balance" the assembly when it's in the up position to minimize twisting at the hinges.

BTW, I can't imagine how leaving the liftgate with gas struts and torsion rods removed up for extended periods of time would twist it. The twisting occurred in the DOWN position with the torsion rods applying their stress to the top of the liftgate. In the up position, the torsion rods apply less stress. With the gas struts, the torsion rods are removed and there is very little stress on the liftgate.

[chevynut]

OK, I refined my idea a little more as my plan to weld on my stock liftgate hinges has not been sitting well with me. I noticed that Madmook made some and they are stainless (I had been thinking of using stainless material for the frame I want to build). If I got a set of Madmook's hinges (getting them without being welded together would actually be what I prefer since I am going to be welding my frame to them), then I could save myself a step in having to fabricate my own hinges and also having to weld together the top five-pieces, two of which would be my hinges. Hey Madmook, what kind of stainless steel are you using for the hinges and what options as far as stronger stainless steel available could you make the hinge out of? I'd be interested in a set; however, I'd want to research the strength of the material the hinge will be made out of. I just want to be certain it will handle all of the weight from the frame, liftgate, and tailgate under under a hot CA summer day (say 110 degrees Farenheit worst case scenario).

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I'm pretty sure Madmook's liftgate hinges are aluminum. The TIG welding on them looks like aluminum too. If you want stainless, imo it wouldn't be that hard to make some especially if you have access to a CNC plasma or laser. 304 stainless would be a good choice since it's commonly available. It also has a higher yield strength (resistance to permanent bending) than mild steel, though the tensile strength isn't much higher.

[Michaelmotorcycle]

I do think you should attach the gas strut to the tailgate, and not rely on the liftgate to hold the tailgate up. You want to take as much stress off the liftgate as you can. I would attach the strut as low as practical on the tailgate, as they did on the Chrysler you posted. I would try to almost "balance" the assembly when it's in the up position to minimize twisting at the hinges.

So this is what I am thinking about making as far as the portion of the bracket that will slide into the tailgate. I am considering cutting an access door and then reinforcing the sheetmetal using "step-vise grips". Ideally like to make this portion and the angled support bracket (that bolts onto the sides of the liftgate) from one piece of metal; however, I am thinking that I will have to make it from two pieces that will be welded together after mock up and making a several reference marks to ensure everything will fit properly once it is all assembled. The one thing that I am unsure of is if I want the ball stud to be threaded into this bracket (from where the cable retainers mount) or if I should make special brackets that the ball stud will mount to. I ended up wieghing my liftgate and it was 40 pounds. My tailgate was 45 pounds (I will be removing the hinges so I will have to weigh it again to get an accurate weight). I figure that the location I plan to mount the ball stud is fairly close to the center of gravity. I know how to find the center of gravity of a 2-dimensional square and a 3-dimensional cube; however, for good measure (and general principle) I would like to figure out how to obtain the center of gravity of an object that does not have the same mass through out and varying shape. Any ideas? I wish I had this question when I was taking physics (I remember the professor had found the center of gravity on a cardboard cutout of California. It spun around just like a tire in balance (it was a pretty cool demonstration).
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Below is how I am thinking of making the gas spring mount to the tailgate:

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