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chevynut
10-20-2012, 11:38 PM
I'm going to be looking for lighting for my new 1300 square foot shop addition. The existing 1140 square foot shop has 12 four foot fluorescent fixtures with 4 bulbs each, for a total of 48 bulbs. These are the "normal" 40W fluorescent bulbs that have been around for decades.

Is there a better setup to use now? I have seen some really bright smaller diameter bulbs used. Is there a rule of thumb for how many bulbs or how many watts to use per square foot of floor space to provide good bright lighting? I have 34' x 38' that I need to light. I'm thinking I'll again use 3 rows of 4 fixtures, but would increase that if it made sense.

Any suggestions?

Rick_L
10-21-2012, 04:22 PM
I've put a few 8' long twin bulb fixtures in my shop as the 4' ones expire. The bulbs in mine are T12, about 1-1/2" diameter, like most 4' bulbs. Less fixtures, less hassle. Bulbs seem to last longer, but that may just be new ballasts/better bulbs.

But T12 bulbs are going the way of the do-do bird. They are being replaced by T8 bulbs which are about 1" diameter. They take different ballasts and they put out a bit more light. So that's probably the right thing to get if you're buying new. This is part of the "green" deal where they are outlawing 100W incandescent bulbs. But at least in this instance, the replacement is better and it's not terribly more expensive if at all, and you get something for your trouble (for you, not the regulators).

chevynut
10-21-2012, 05:01 PM
Thanks for the input Rick. I'm not sure if the 8-footers are the way to go, but that is a consideration. Seems like they'd be a lot harder to handle. I think it's the T8 that I've been seeing...I'll probably go that route. It's what I usually order at Taco Bell too....LOL! :)

56-210Sedan
10-21-2012, 05:48 PM
Laszlo you at least need to stay with the t8 for your area, i know you heat your shop which helps. They do make the t8 and other series in 8ft units with 4/4ft bulbs which may be easier if changing out on a high ceiling. here is a place i am getting some quotes from for my shop, Randy Owen http://www.trifivechevys.com/527C690C88E9436EBB7DF56C61C62AF4@MartinHP
Office - (425) 806-9200
Cell - (509) 680-3314
www.nwedison.com (wlmailhtml:../../../../Desktop/Launch%20Internet%20Explorer%20Browser.lnk)

, in fact the person i am dealing with which is the vice president to the company is in your state now on a hunting trip. If you want give them a call just have the dimensions of your shop ready and they will put together a package for you. good luck.

stroker
10-24-2012, 08:41 AM
Chevynut, I just replaced my shop lites with new 8' 4 bulb T8 fixtures with the electronic ballasts. What a difference they mke. No noise or radio interference. The bulbs are the white daylight and boy are they bright. I only have a 750 sq.ft. shop (that's as large as the city would allow) wish I had space like you. Anyway, I put three rows of two 8'ers five feet apart and one at right angles beneath the roll-up door. It's fantastic !! The fixtures were under $50 apiece, although the bulbs are a bit pricy. The total cost though is worth it. I'll try to get my son to take a picture of the shop lit so you can see the result.

chevynut
10-24-2012, 11:23 AM
I went to HD the other day looking for some new fixtures. They have 4 foot T8 lights that fit into suspended ceiling frames, BUT THAT'S ALL THEY CARRY!

I'm a little confused on the brightness stuff too. My current bulbs are 2800 lumens and 40 watt, 4100K temperature color. I see some T8 bulbs that are 6500K color, 35 watts, but only 2300 or so lumens. Why do they look brighter if the lumens are that much lower? I thought the lumens was the actual light output. The 6500K bulbs look whiter and brighter to me.

This is what I have in my old shop now. Oh, and I only have 8 now, not 12, in 2 rows of 4 and 4 bulbs each.

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL97/465705/12624445/368414079.jpg

Maddog
10-24-2012, 11:32 AM
How high will they be mounted? 8' bulbs are the way to go if your mounting height is higher then 8 feet. Don't buy the low cost "industrial" fixtures as they come with noisy ballasts, unless you don't care about the buzzing. The ballasts have ratings, I don't have the numbers on hand but you can look up the different ratings by class for the quuiet ones. Generally Home Depot etc will onlky have the cheap, noisy ones.

chevynut
10-24-2012, 01:34 PM
The height will be almost 11 feet. But I want them recessed. I haven't seen ANY recessed 8 foot fixtures. I bought my fixtures from HD 10 or more years ago, and they're fine. The noise doesn't seem to be a problem and I never notice anything. They have them now with T8 bulbs, but not for recessed mounting between trusses. I plan to check Lowes too.

chevynut
11-21-2012, 07:59 PM
Still looking for recessed fluorescent fixtures like in my picture above for the new shop. I looked in Grainger's and Lowes, and all they have also is the troffers for suspended ceilings just like HD.

Now I'm not sure how I installed my lighting...I need to go take a look. I don't recall having any problem finding 2'x4' fixtures that are designed to fit between trusses and have a trim ring. All of them I can find now are too wide to fit and aren't designed for permanent mounting.

Marty, what have you decided to do? My guess is you're going with some suspended fixtures, since I don't think you plan to put a drywalled ceiling in your shop. I don't want those.

56-210Sedan
11-25-2012, 08:00 AM
take a look at these links and see if any of them are close to what you are after i did not go through them thoroughly http://www.alibaba.com/showroom/fluorescent-light-recessed-mounted.html http://www.lightolier.com/products/index.jsp?&CATREL_ID=11393&CAT_NAME=Recessed+%26+Surface+Fluorescent&PARREL_ID=10013&BLK=N&CAT_ID=8026 http://hewilliams.com/catalog/?tab=recessed+fluorescent+(cfl)#.ULI-49fRZro http://www.sustainablesupply.com/Lithonia-2SP8G232A12MVOLTGEB10RS-Fluorescent-Fixtu-p/w157552.htm?gclid=CO3kyvi96rMCFQmCQgodX3sAyA&CAWELAID=1307631570&cagpspn=pla http://www.cooperindustries.com/content/public/en/crouse-hinds/products/lighting/fluorescent_luminaires/hazardous_area/ellb20_series_recessedmountfluorescentluminaires.h tml http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/catalog/servlet/Navigation?storeId=10051&langId=-1&catalogId=10053&N=5yc1vZbvmcZ1xr5

56-210Sedan
11-25-2012, 08:07 AM
"Marty, what have you decided to do? My guess is you're going with some suspended fixtures, since I don't think you plan to put a drywalled ceiling in your shop. I don't want those.

I will put 3 eight foot lights per truss so nine total in the main body of the shop, in the future i will do something different in the lean tube portion as i want a loft in that area so it will have a ceiling to it.

chevynut
11-25-2012, 11:24 AM
Thanks for the links Marty. It seems that there is a kit for some of those fixtures so they can be installed in drywalled ceilings. I need to take a look at what HD has to see if I can make them work. My lights are Lithonia, and they have a flange that goes over the drywall. They may be lights made for suspended ceilings that I made work for my application 10 years ago.

Maddog
11-25-2012, 11:56 AM
Have you ever visited that forum for garage builds? I don't recall the name but there are some very talented folks there in building their garages. I would bet someone has posted on lighting and like I said there are some very talented folks there.

warren57
11-25-2012, 06:57 PM
Have a friend that's an electrical engineer. If you can provide more specifics such as how bright you want it, etc. I'll ask him what to use and where to buy recessed fixtures.
In recessing you will loose a lot of light, even with good deflectors, the light only has one direction to go.
It it were open on bottom with no cover, a shiny diffuser (polished/chrome/etc.) would reflect good, but with a solid cover the reflection gets broken up and much softer. Very much the same as a clear light bulb vs a frosted, the watts can be the same, but totally different light. Another option to a solid cover would be an egg crate style.
Anyway, let me know if I can help.

destroyertta
11-26-2012, 06:33 PM
Have you ever visited that forum for garage builds? I don't recall the name but there are some very talented folks there in building their garages. I would bet someone has posted on lighting and like I said there are some very talented folks there.

http://garagejournal.com/forum/ i think this might be it some very nice garages makes me jealous lol

chevynut
11-26-2012, 07:07 PM
I went to Home Depot and asked them about the lights I want. They have them in 1x4, but not 2x4...weird. They're going to call Lithonia for me and see if they have what I need. The only 2x4 lights they had didn't have the flanges on them for a drywalled ceiling. I can't believe they don't make something like that....seems like such an obvious market.

Warren, I don't see how recessing a light changes the output from a surface mount with a reflector. The light can't come out of the sides of the reflector anyhow, so placing it up inside the ceiling shouldn't change anything. But I guess that depends on the style of light too. I just like the clean look of the recessed lights in my picture above.

56-210Sedan
11-26-2012, 07:49 PM
You know i just threw out a an old HD supply catalog wish i had not now, oh i am not a worthy pack rat :D

56-210Sedan
11-26-2012, 08:08 PM
take a peek at this Laszlo http://www.lithonia.com/commercial/2av.html

warren57
11-27-2012, 06:05 PM
You're right if the surface mount has covers it would be the same. I was thinking an open surface mount with three sides open. In my last shop I mounted standard surface mount lights between the joists, flush on bottom and sheetrocked and it was not bad at all?

56-210Sedan
11-30-2012, 05:01 PM
Find anything yet?

lakeroadster
12-01-2012, 05:35 AM
I have the inexpensive Home Depot hanging 4 foot flourescent fixtures in my shop. When the ballast goes out it's cheaper to buy an entire new fixture. It seems we live in a disposable society anymore.

http://i645.photobucket.com/albums/uu176/lakeroadster/Shop%20Photos/2%20Post%20Lift/100_3554.jpg

56-210Sedan
12-01-2012, 10:26 AM
Laszlo i did find my old HDsupply catalog, i thought i had thrown it out during shop move in. Anyway there is a page in there that has recessed lithonia florescent lights and they are 2x4 configurations there is 2x2 as well, so i really think you should be able to get your lights from Home Depot, they might have to order them but they should be available

chevynut
12-01-2012, 11:14 AM
Mary, they have them at HD, but they don't have the flange for drywall mounting. Does your catalog show 2x4 units with a flange? All they have at HD with a flange is 1x4.

I went and asked at their PRO Desk and the guy took my info and said he'd call Lithonia for me. Never heard a word from him.

56-210Sedan
12-01-2012, 12:56 PM
Laszlo i will go through the catalog again and do a better check for you and give you some numbers, i am getting ready to take off for a little bit, LOL in fact one stop is HD but when i get back i will get back to you what i find, so stay tuned:D

56-210Sedan
12-01-2012, 03:35 PM
http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/LITHONIA-Drywall-Grid-Adapter-Kit-1THV5


Darn my part numbers i just put in there did not go through Arrrrgggghhh

OK so we try again part number 325160 and 324900 both Lithonia products
(http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/LITHONIA-Drywall-Grid-Adapter-Kit-1THV5)

chevynut
12-01-2012, 03:47 PM
Holy crap....$90 for JUST the adapter? I only paid about $50 for each light in the other shop. I can still get lights for $53 with bulbs.

I may try to get the fixtures made for suspended ceilings, and just add a wood frame using interior window/door moulding. That is, if they fit between the trusses like my other ones do.

chevynut
12-01-2012, 03:49 PM
This is more like it, but even $54 is OUTRAGEOUS for what you get. The whole darn light fixture doesn't cost that much


http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/LITHONIA-Flange-Kit-2MZK8?cm_sp=IO-_-IDP-_-BTM_BTB05209020&cm_vc=IDPBBZ2

56-210Sedan
12-01-2012, 04:17 PM
The adapter was just something else i cam across if the other lights did not work

Rick_L
12-01-2012, 04:20 PM
Gee, that's a rip off. Looks like it should be $10-15, if that. Grainger is not known for good prices, just convenience.

Have you tried McMaster-Carr?

chevynut
12-17-2012, 05:06 PM
Okay guys, I did some research on shop lighting. The recommendation is about 2 watts per square foot of shop space. Personally I think Lumens are better measure, since you can get more light per watt from a fluorescent bulb than an incandescent one.

My old shop has 32 40-watt bulbs installed. That comes out to 1280 watts in little over 1100 square feet of interior space, or about 1.15 watts per square foot. I personally wouldn't want it any less bright than it is.

What's interesting to me is the difference in the bulbs. I just bought a pack of Philips Daylight Deluxe bulbs to replace the bulbs I have installed, which are Philips Cool White. The Daylight Deluxe LOOKS way brighter, but the Lumens are actually less at 2325 versus 3200. The color temperature is 6500 for the Daylight Deluxe versus 4100 for the cool white so the light is a lot whiter, but less lumens.

Come to find out after closer examination, my old fixtures really DON'T have a flange all the way around, like I thought they did. I just had them drywall tape up to the edge cleanly. So they're exactly like one I just bought this weekend at HD to try out. How 'bout that. :) I can't remember stuff like that from 10+ years ago, I guess.

Anyhow, to maintain the same level of light in my new shop, I would need 36 bulbs or 9 fixtures. I plan to install 11 or 12 of them in 3 rows. I've been considering offsetting the middle row to try to eliminate any shadows, instead of lining them all up. Seems like that would help.

I read one place where they recommend 2 watts per square foot. That would put me at 2500 watts and 16 fixtures...that seems overkill.

How many watts per square foot do you guys have, and do you think it's enough?

NickP
12-18-2012, 07:00 AM
What distance to ground? That has an effect on the light also along with the saturation through quantity. My shop, by your numbers is way under lit. But my fixtures are 8', dual bulb. I have two rows of eight. Enough, no. I have plans for more but my addition is sucking up all of the extra cash for now.

chevynut
12-18-2012, 07:57 AM
What distance to ground? That has an effect on the light also along with the saturation through quantity.

Mine are almost 11 feet. I read that this really affects the light distribution more than the lighting that hits the work surfaces, but I'm not sure I believe that. Also, they said troffers are better at distributing the light more evenly.


I have plans for more but my addition is sucking up all of the extra cash for now.

Wow, tell me about it. :) My garage door is going to be $1700 installed by me. :eek:

NickP
12-18-2012, 11:20 AM
DOOR! Crap, I gotta get a door.............................................. ...................... too?! I decided to go with a barn door rather than another rollup. I can insulate it and secure it better than a rollup - I think......................?

Busted Knuckles
01-06-2013, 07:59 PM
I have approx the same size shop as your talking about and adding on this spring What I did was going across used two double 4' T-8's fixtures back to back going down the center of the span I placed the double T8 fixtures 3' on either side of center. I repeated this every third truss. I then repeated this on the perimeter about 4' off each wall the entire 40' I also have lights over each work bench and in one section of the shop on two walls I mounted 4' 4 bulb fixtures meant for use in suspended ceilings that I purchased on craigslist to the walls between the studs similar to what you see in a paint booth. We generally think of putting light on the ceiling but neglect walls and that causes shadows
This pic was taken before the lighting was completed and as you can see there is plenty of light. One area I neglected and have the new fixtures to install is right at the opening of the overhead door. As my wife pointed out the silver reflective foil really isn't insulation but it keeps the government and the Aline's from reading my thoughts

1177


http://www.lowes.com/ProductDisplay?partNumber=163719-337-SNF232RC&langId=-1&storeId=10151&productId=3335372&catalogId=10051&cmRelshp=req&rel=nofollow&
cId=PDIO1



(http://www.lowes.com/ProductDisplay?partNumber=163719-337-SNF232RC&langId=-1&storeId=10151&productId=3335372&catalogId=10051&cmRelshp=req&rel=nofollow&cId=PDIO1)

stroker
01-06-2013, 10:10 PM
My shop is 750 sq.ft. with a 10' sheet rocked ceiling. I replaced the 8' T12 fixtures with 8' T8 four bulb fixtures with 32 watt daylight plus 6500K 2700 lumins bulbs. I have ten fixtures - 1 row of three, 3' off the wall and three rows of two spaced 4' apart and the final fixture turned 90 degree's and suspended under the roll-up door 4' from the rows of two. That way I get benefit of all fixtures whether the door is opened or closed. This gives me 108,000 lumins or 1.44 per sq.ft. and 1.07+ watts prer sq.ft. Also, under the corner cabinets I have three 4' fixtures to illuminate the benchs. Here are pics with the lights on. I am very happy with the results.

1178117911801181

Rick_L
03-09-2014, 05:34 PM
I started to post this as a reply to Sid's LED shop light thread, but the lights discussed in this thread are closer to my needs.

I have a couple of 8' fixtures that take 2 each 4' T12 bulbs inline. They are old and the ballasts are shot, and I need to replace them with new fixtures. I replaced a couple of these 3-4 years ago with two bulb T12, 8' fixtures. I also have a couple of fixtures with 2 x 4' side by side bulbs that will need replacing before long.

T12 and many T8 bulbs were supposed to be discontinued in July, 2012 but they got a 2 year reprieve. So it's supposed to be over again in July 2014.

I went to the home improvement store today and they still mostly sell T12 fixtures. Some even have magnetic ballasts. The only T8 fixtures I saw were 8' fixtures that had 2 bulbs side by side x 2 lengthwise.

Supposedly one option is T5. I didn't see T5 there at all.

So what's one to buy and from where? I don't see me buying those $300 4' LED fixtures that Sid talked about.

Is my best bet to buy cheap T12 fixtures while I can, along with a stash of bulbs?

chevynut
03-09-2014, 06:27 PM
Rick, I think they still sell 2x4' T8 fixtures in Home Depot that take four 4-foot bulbs. That's what I ended up going with. I recessed them into my ceiling. They also have 1x4 fixtures that take two 4-foot bulbs.

Rick_L
03-09-2014, 06:45 PM
Do you know if those T8 bulbs on the phase out list or not? I've not seen a list describing which ones are going to be banned.

Looks like the lowball strategy may be to buy some new T12 fixtures and enough spare bulbs to last a little while and see if retrofit technology comes down in price after my stash is gone or nearly so.

I have plenty of light when they all work like they should.

chevynut
03-09-2014, 07:19 PM
I haven't even seen any T12 fixtures for sale, they're all T8. I think I'd buy the T8 fixtures and load up on the bulbs. My new fixtures are pretty nice.

567chevys
03-10-2014, 07:27 AM
My Thread was not for you to go out and Buy LED lights
Yes they cost alot .
I was trying to show how far they have come along with LED's
My self I Love them would I pay 300 ea now , NO
But they where Free
They will be just like TV's
when I bought my 50" TV 7 Years ago it was $2699.00
When I bought My 70" Last year it was $1999.00
Now they are $1599 so a 80" TV will be around $2000.00 by the end of the year .

Rick_L
03-10-2014, 08:35 AM
There is a big difference here. You can argue that the big TV has some extra value.

My only goal on these lights is to restore what I once had and sometimes even still do, which was adequate. The energy used to run the lights is insignificant in my case. There is no value added for the "modern" lights.

Rick_L
03-10-2014, 01:16 PM
Surprise! I went by Home Depot at lunch and unlike Lowes they have mostly T8 fixtures. I also did some research on what T8 bulbs are being banned. I have that info but I have to translate it to what's for sale. Apparently what's called 700 series T8s are going to be banned. And this includes 8' long T8 bulbs and some others. So I'm going to try to sort that out next.

567chevys
03-29-2014, 10:41 AM
Well we got our first electric bill since we installed all the lights in my 30,000 SF shop our Electric bill dropped from $2000.00 to $1300.00 (I would say that's really Good
Tons of more Light and cheaper Bill )


Sid

NickP
03-29-2014, 11:03 AM
So, what's the ROI period?

567chevys
04-10-2014, 09:25 PM
Hello Nick,

Will get back to you tomarrow , Been working long Hr's for the last 2 weeks.

Sid

LEE T
04-11-2014, 10:45 AM
Has anyone else tried the HO 54W T5s? I was looking at Home Depot and this one was on display there, it was so much brighter than anything else that I decided right there to get them. Replaced my T12 4 tube fixtures with T5 2 tube fixtures and have a lot more light and less energy use.

Rick_L
04-17-2014, 05:43 PM
Finally got some new fixtures and bulbs.

I bought a couple of 8' T8 fixtures with four 4' bulbs, to replace some "lazy" 8' two bulb T12 fixtures. I had replaced the ballasts in those not all that long ago and they didn't last too good.

I also got the "daylight" 32W T8 bulbs. I got one of them up today over my mill, lathe, and toolbox area. All I can say is wow what a difference! Have another to replace one of the fixtures in the bay where my car is. I'll probably buy some more.

chevynut
04-17-2014, 08:19 PM
I put all "daylight deluxe" bulbs in my old shop and the light is a lot brighter and whiter. I like them a lot. I posted this earlier in this thread:

"What's interesting to me is the difference in the bulbs. I just bought a pack of Philips Daylight Deluxe bulbs to replace the bulbs I have installed, which are Philips Cool White. The Daylight Deluxe LOOKS way brighter, but the Lumens are actually less at 2325 versus 3200. The color temperature is 6500 for the Daylight Deluxe versus 4100 for the cool white so the light is a lot whiter, but less lumens. "

567chevys
04-20-2014, 09:09 AM
Hi Laszlo ,

I have also replace 68 Lights like this to the daylight deluxe bulbes , Lights are much brighter and whiter, Also Power Bill dropped BIG Time ..

Sid

Rick_L
04-20-2014, 04:35 PM
Have any of you used the "natural light" T8 bulbs? I ended up with both the "natural light" and the "daylight deluxe" because the first store only had one fixture, and I bought the "natural light" bulbs on my first trip, only enough for that fixture.

My understanding is the "natural light" bulbs are next to the "daylight deluxe" and am wondering whether to exchange them or just use them.