How many hours for painting?

[chevynut]

Guys, I am currently looking for a painter to paint my Nomad in the next few months. I have done all the metalwork and bodywork on the car, and it's been shot with PPG DPLF epoxy, 1-2 coats of Slicksand, then blocked it with all the panels in place. All the front end sheetmetal was blocked, then everything was shot with a coat of PPG K-36 urethane primer/surfacer.

I plan to do some more final blocking with guidecoat in the near future to get it down to the point it's ready to shoot. I plan to block it with the panels on the car again, then take them off and do some final detailed spot filling and blocking everywhere to the final grit.

Then I am going to totally disassemble the car down to a bare body and chassis, and all loose parts that need to be painted. I will probably shoot some sort of urethane spatter in the wheelwells and on the underside of the front inner fenderwells and flaps before painting. I have seen that done a lot on high end cars. I don't really want to use bed liner because I am not convinced it will match my paint if I do. SPI makes a urethane spatter material that Roger1 used in his trunk that I liked, or I may go with some other material. Then all parts will be painted with the body paint.

I plan to deliver the frame on a rotisserie before the body, and have it shot so I can start assembly on it before the body's done. The body will be delivered on a rotisserie for paint, along with all the other loose pieces.

All I want is for someone to do a "once-over" to make sure I didn't miss anything and that the panels are perfect as they can be. The I want him to shoot everything with sealer, paint, and clearcoat then sand and buff it out. I don't necessarily think the frame will need to be buffed, nor the underside of the body. If they do need something, I'll do it myself. Hopefully he's a good enough painter that there won't be much to buff except the outside of the body.

I'd like to get some estimates on the number of hours you think this will take. I broke it down like this...

Seal, paint, and clearcoat frame ______ hours
Seal, paint and clearcoat body, including underside (stock 2-tone scheme including masking) _______ hours
Seal, paint and clearcoat doors, hood, fenders, tailgate, inner fenders, and misc loose parts _______ hours
Sand and buff all painted parts (except frame and undersides) ______ hours

I may do the frame myself, depending on everyone's schedule. I've done some painting myself, but very little with urethane paint. I've shot quite a bit of primers and I know the basics of painting. I think I could do the car myself but I'm scared to...I don't think I'm good enough of a painter. I may paint some odds and ends later if I need to.

Thanks for any feedback you might have. I've got a couple of guys I've been talking to and I'm going to go see one of them this week to discuss the project.

[Rick_L]

Unless one or more of your painters is pricing the job by the hour time actual hours spent, plus materials, I think it's going to be difficult to judge that, especially without seeing your car.

Another item that's really difficult in this situation is warranty. Many painters won't even touch a job like this where they didn't do the bodywork/priming. Or they won't give you a warranty.

Last thing, are you sure you want to paint with the hood, doors, etc. off the car? Are you going to have the dash painted?

Last thing, is the painter going to reassemble the car or will you?

Lots of variables here.

[567chevys]

X 2

Rick is correct :)


Sid

[chevynut]

Well guys, there is no way I'm going to have anyone re-do what I've already done, so all I want is someone to shoot the paint :). I'll find SOMEONE to do that, regardless of warranty. I am not too concerned about warranty, I'm concerned about initial quality of the job. I will provide materials.

And yes, I want it painted in pieces. I don't believe you can get a quality job with the doors, fenders and hood on the car. What about over-spray at the door jambs or cowl? I don't want any tape lines. I expect the painter to orient the parts as they would be on the car, and paint them that way. I have been told by high-end painters to not even think about painting an assembled car.

I don't know why you're asking the question about re-assembly ;). All I asked about is the hours to do the paint, and nothing to do with materials. I forgot to mention that I will provide all the materials...sealer, paint, and clear and any catalysts and reducers.

I don't think there are "a lot of variables". I just want someone to shoot and buff the car. That's it.

All I'm looking for is an estimate of the hours to do the 4 steps that I listed. No need to make it any more complicated than that. :)

I talked to my brother today who's done a few paint jobs, and my estimates came close to his. I was looking for some validation of those estimates from some guys who have been through this so I can tell if I'm getting a fair deal or not when I talk to the guys.

[JT56]

Why not paint it yourself? Hell you have done all the hard stuff. I never thought I would ever put a wool pad and buff my car...asked others questions on the do and dont's and did it myself.

[chevynut]

JT, I have way too much time and money in this car to screw it up painting it especially if I can get it done at a reasonable cost. I painted it the first time in 1980 or so in my garage, using acrylic lacquer, and I think it turned out pretty good. But I think I'm a lot pickier now than I was then. This is what it looked like the day I rolled it into my shop after sitting in my garage for 20 years:

3734 3735 3736


If the color was going to be non-metallic like black, red, white, turquoise, or something like that I would paint it myself. I have a good topcoat paint gun that I've never used (still in the box) and have access to a couple of paint booths for free.

The paint I want to use is metallic and has a lot of pearls in it. I'm just not confident enough to tackle the body. I have no problem painting the frame, underside of the body, cowl, jambs, and maybe even some of the under-hood sheetmetal myself but I don't want the body tiger-striped, and I want all the panels to match.

I've done 100% of the work on my car so far and I'd love to paint it myself, but the paint and interior stitching is probably going to be done by others. The stitching is already "paid" for. If I can't find a reasonable painter, I'll consider doing it myself or fly my brother here from Montana to shoot it.

[JT56]

I hear ya! Are you going back with a two tone or solid color?

[chevynut]

I hear ya! Are you going back with a two tone or solid color?

"Seal, paint and clearcoat body, including underside (stock 2-tone scheme including masking) _______ hours" :)

[slowfinger]

Chevynut, I'll bet you will use 2 gallons of clear on it, being a wagon. We are getting ready to paint our delivery wagon soon. I bought 2 gals of color coat and 2 clears. Love the 2 tones, but we are going plum color metalic on this one. I hear urathane paint holds up better than the older acrilic "centari" paint.

[Bihili]

I can understand your goal. Mine was similar but I did paint the frame and firewall myself since it was only black.
My 30x40 garage was turned into a paint booth using filters, fans and AC. It took me almost a week to build a room enclosed in plastic with filters and fans.

Anyway Fuzzy from Wisconsin who stays at Trifive forum came to my place and in one week we were able to correct minor mistakes I made, seal coat, base coat, clear coat, dry the paint with heating lights, wet sand and buff. He also helped me hang the doors and fenders before he left. When I say one week I must clarify by stating those were very long days.

It was a great experience for me and I am glad I did not try to paint the top coats myself.
The 57 went to only one car show this year to be judged and it won best paint.

Two hoods, two doors, two fenders, trunk lid, mirrors, hood scoop and gauge bezel were all laid out to be painted the same time as the body.

Since you are retired I would recommend you be there to help wet sand. That is the most difficult part of the process but also the most rewarding too.

I think you could complete the Nomad in two weeks.

[chevynut]

Chevynut, I'll bet you will use 2 gallons of clear on it, being a wagon. We are getting ready to paint our delivery wagon soon. I bought 2 gals of color coat and 2 clears.

2 gallons of color and clear seems like an awful lot. That's 4 gallons sprayable paint and 4 gallons of sprayable clearcoat. As I understand it you typically mix 1 part paint to 1 part reducer/activator. At least that's how PPG Deltron works.

slowfinger, I'm planning on about 5 quarts for the main color, 1 quart for the contrast color, a pint for the dash and 1-2 gallons of clear. That will give me about 2 1/2 gallons of sprayable main color, half gallon of sprayable contrast color, a quart for the dash and other small stuff, and I think the color covers pretty well. I will also need a couple of quarts to a gallon of white sealer.

I'll get advice from the painter on exact amounts to buy so I have some leftover for the future if needed. I've already spent around $1000 on primers and I expect to pay another $2000 on sealer and paint.

[chevynut]

My 30x40 garage was turned into a paint booth using filters, fans and AC. It took me almost a week to build a room enclosed in plastic with filters and fans.

I don't want to do that, and since I have access to paint booths I don't need to.



The 57 went to only one car show this year to be judged and it won best paint.

Congrats on the award!! That has to make you feel great. ;)


Since you are retired I would recommend you be there to help wet sand. That is the most difficult part of the process but also the most rewarding too.

That's what I would like to do, if he lets me.


I think you could complete the Nomad in two weeks.

Is that for me doing it or a professional painter? You did yours in a week, why would it take 2 weeks on my Nomad? Just trying to narrow in on the expected labor hours, which everyone seems to want to avoid. LOL! :) :)

[rockytopper R.I.P 5-13-2017]

Personally I would pay my brother to fly down especially if you have the paint booth and supplies to do it. You aren't going to find any high end paint shop touch it for the price of airfare. If you do find one your car could end up in dreaded "PAINT JAIL".

[chevynut]

Okay, here's my stab at it and the rationale. Tell me where I'm wrong.

Seal, paint, and clearcoat frame ___6___ hours
Roll frame into booth, wipe down. Mix sealer and shoot. 1 hour.
Mix color and shoot, possibly 2-3 coats. 2 hours.
Mix clearcoat and shoot possibly 3-4 coats. 2.5 hours
Cleanup and roll frame out. .5 hours


Seal, paint and clearcoat body, including underside (stock 2-tone scheme including masking) __14_____ hours

Roll body into booth and wipe down. Mix sealer and shoot. 2 hours.
Mask to shoot dash. .5 hours.
Mix dash color and shoot. .5 hours
Mask to shoot secondary color, including stripe on doors, fenders. 1 hour.
Mix secondary color and shoot, 3-4 coats. 2 hours.
Remove masking and re-mask to shoot main color. 1 hour.
Mix main color and shoot entire body. 3 hours
Unmask all. 1 hour.
Mix and shoot clear, ~4 coats. 3 hours


Seal, paint and clearcoat doors, hood, fenders, tailgate, inner fenders, and misc loose parts ___10____ hours

Hang or rack all parts. 1 hour.

Wipe down all parts. 1 hour.
Mask stripe on doors and fenders. .5 hours.
Mix and shoot sealer on all parts (except doors and fenders) 1 hour.
Mix main color and shoot all parts, both sides 3-4 coats. 2 hours.
Remove masking on doors, fenders. .5 hours.
Mix clearcoat and shoot all parts ~4 coats. 2 hours.
Cleanup and take parts out of booth. 1.5 hours.



Sand and buff all painted parts (except frame and undersides) __16____ hours



In reality, the loose parts will probably be painted at the same time as the body. But I looked at them separately to make it easier for me to estimate the time involved. Of course there is always flash/drying time but I think coats can be made pretty quickly.

I figure no more than 4 hours to go over the body and other parts with a fine-tooth comb and sand out any scratches. If it requires more than that, it would take longer.

So I come up with 50 hours total labor on the part of the painter. I think since everything can be painted at once, it may take less time, but there is more mixing time than I allowed for so maybe it offsets that time. If I help, the sanding should take less time. That's a week and a day, which seems reasonable to me to get the car in and out. It's also consistent with Bihili's own experience. My brother estimated a little less time than I did.

Do you see where I may be off?

[Bihili]

I've already spent around $1000 on primers and I expect to pay another $2000 on sealer and paint.

$2,000 is very accurate.

Two weeks total time to complete based on doing the frame first, drying time, transporting back and forth.

My buffing was about four hours for one guy.
My wet sanding was about six or seven hours for two guys
The first eight hours was prepping the car for sealer. When an expert looks at your bodywork they can find details you overlook. Such as the edges of metal panels and sanding marks.
That about all I can help you with.

[Rick_L]

Check your p-sheets for the correct mix ratios. 1:1 is correct for DBC, but DCC or clear mix at 4:2:1 where 4 is color/clear, 2 is reducer, and 1 is catalyst.

I think you would be close on the sprayable quantities if you weren't spraying the underside and firewall. You'll need more paint/clear due to that and the real mix ratio. You may need 5-6 coats of base because I don't think your color is going to hide well.

Your times are pretty optimistic - everything has to go perfectly. Plus a helper is needed to go that fast. So double the hours, or maybe even 2.5.

Consider using a catalyst in the basecoat - DX57 if it's PPG. Check the p-sheet. Especially needed with the pearl or other tri-coat.

[chevynut]

I know what DBU and DBC are but I don't know what DCC is. I assume that's the clear coat (Deltron Clear Coat). So that ratio doesn't apply to the color, does it? Even at 4:2:1 that's 4 parts clear to 3 parts reducer/catalyst. So 1:1 isn't that far off. With 2 gallons of clear I'd get 3 1/2 gallons sprayable instead of 4 gallons. I'll get whatever the painter thinks he needs. Material isn't the question here but I appreciate the input.

I bought some touchup paint of the 4 colors I was looking at using. One of them covered poorly, two were pretty good, and the one I'm likely to use covered the best. The company claims the mix is identical to the factory mix. Once everything is all set up another coat doesn't take that long if needed. Adding another hour to shooting the color doesn't change the big picture.

I thought my times were actually conservative, and so did my brother who's painted several cars with BC/CC. I expect everything to go "perfectly"....:) What could go wrong? LOL ;) I'm looking for a professional painter who paints virtually every day.

What's the "helper" for? With everything racked and ready to paint I don't see why anyone else is needed in the booth. Maybe the helper mixes more paint? If he needs a helper, I'm available. I sure can't see doubling the time estimates I made....I think they're reasonable. Even Bihili said it took him a week to paint his car and I figured 5 days so it should be in the ballpark. I don't think I have to transport anything back and forth until it's finished. I just can't see a 2-2.5 multiplier for anything.

Can you tell me the difference between DBC and DBU? I know one's catalyzed and the other isn't. But what are the pros and cons of each? I can get either.

[chevynut]

My buffing was about four hours for one guy. My wet sanding was about six or seven hours for two guys

So I planned 16 hours, and yours was a total of 11 with you helping, or 16-18 hours for one guy. I think I'm pretty close.



The first eight hours was prepping the car for sealer. When an expert looks at your bodywork they can find details you overlook. Such as the edges of metal panels and sanding marks.

I had initially assumed a full day getting ready for sealer but cut it to 4 hours optimistically. If I add those 4 hours back in I'm still at 54 hours. So it looks like I should expect 50-60 hours for the paint labor, depending on how much I can help out.

2 weeks seems excessive, unless you plan a day to transport. I'm not counting transport time since I'm doing it myself.

Thanks for the input.

[MP&C]

Base coat- base urethane?

[chevynut]

Base coat- base urethane?

Yes, all PPG Deltron.

[MP&C]

DBC- base coat
DBU- base urethane

[chevynut]

DBC- base coat
DBU- base urethane

I don't understand. Both are urethane basecoats.

As I understand it, the DBU requres a reactive reducer, while the DBC just requires DT reducer. Looks like the DBC is a solvent-based base, while the DBU gets catalyzed with the reducer. You can add a hardener to the DBC, but it's not necessary.

I read that most guys seem to prefer the DBC. The reactive reducer used with DBU has a short shelf life.

http://autobodystore.com/forum/showthread.php?4635-dbc-vs-dbu-main-differences

[Rick_L]

DBC is considered the better of the two, especially the pigments. This is really important with a color like you've chosen.

With DBC you use regular urethane reducer - the catalyst DX57 is optional but stabilizes the basecoat. The p-sheet recommends a 5% mixture with ready to spay color/reducer.

You mentioned pearl. I assume that's sprayed on top of the basecoat (mixed with an intercoat clear) but I suppose in some cases it could be mixed. If you spray it on top of the basecoat that's even more of a case for catalyzing the base coat.

If the pearl is sprayed separately, that is going to be more labor. I would also highly recommend spending a day or so spraying some color cards to see how much pearl, spraying technique, etc. Take this up with your painter from the beginning. It also increases the risk of a paint job you don't like and the risk of mistakes.

DCC is single stage. It mixes the same as PPG clears. Just has pigments in it.

[chevynut]

Thanks for the explanation Rick. I found a place that's selling PPG DBC for about half the cost of my local PPG shop. Apparently they mix it up for you per order. I'm going to call them and see how they can do that, and maybe order all my stuff there and have it shipped. I don't know if the painter I talked to has a problem with me providing the materials, but if he does I'll find someone else to do it. If he won't warranty the work then I don't see why he'd have a problem with it. Since I did all the prep work, I wouldn't necessarily expect a warranty.

The pearl is mixed into the basecoat for this paint color.

Are there different choices of PPG clearcoats? What's the difference and what do you recommend?

[Rick_L]

You're saying that pearl is part of the standard mix?

One reason a painter might insist on a particular brand of paint would be that he has invested in all the toners, binders, etc. that are needed to mix basecoat in his shop. Plus maybe a color gun. All that so he can match and blend paint on most any vehicle. So he's got an investment that he has to pay for.

The other reason a painter might insist on a particular brand would be that's what he's familiar with. There's nuances to spraying every brand.

Now if the guy uses PPG and he just orders it from the paint store like you would, then you can probably strike a deal of some sort.

I doubt that your color is available in a factory mixed pack. It's going to be mixed at the point of sale or point of use.

I think the most popular PPG clear is 2021. It's the most commonly used for overall high quality paint jobs. 2021 can be baked or air dried. There are many more formulations than 2021 though. Most are for "production" or spot jobs.

[Rick_L]

DBC- base coat
DBU- base urethane

D is for Ditzler in both.

Ditzler is the predecessor to PPG.

Don't worry about the names, they don't mean anything. It's just two versions of PPG base coat.

[chevynut]

You're saying that pearl is part of the standard mix? [quote]

Well I know it has a lot of pearls in it, and it's not a tricoat. So I assume it's mixed in the basecoat.

[QUOTE]One reason a painter might insist on a particular brand of paint would be that he has invested in all the toners, binders, etc. that are needed to mix basecoat in his shop.

If I supply the paint pre-mixed, I don't see how that applies.


Plus maybe a color gun. All that so he can match and blend paint on most any vehicle. So he's got an investment that he has to pay for.

If he's that strict and picky about things and expects me to help pay for something I'm not using, I'll find another painter.


The other reason a painter might insist on a particular brand would be that's what he's familiar with. There's nuances to spraying every brand.


That's sort of understandable. I've used PPG products up to this point and I've been told not to change now. But again I've never heard of anyone being stuck on one brand. Most guys I've talked to in the past use several brands.


Now if the guy uses PPG and he just orders it from the paint store like you would, then you can probably strike a deal of some sort.


That's what I am looking for, but I'll supply the paint. It's coming from a paint store. I really don't see what difference it makes if he mixes it or if I buy it mixed by another paint shop.


I doubt that your color is available in a factory mixed pack. It's going to be mixed at the point of sale or point of use.

I don't know what you mean by "factory mixed pack". I assumed all paints were mixed to order, just like house paint.


I think the most popular PPG clear is 2021. It's the most commonly used for overall high quality paint jobs. 2021 can be baked or air dried. There are many more formulations than 2021 though. Most are for "production" or spot jobs.

Good to know. Thanks.

[chevynut]

D is for Ditzler in both. Ditzler is the predecessor to PPG.

I thought the D was for Deltron which is one of the PPG paint lines. :confused:

[Rick_L]

Some colors are available mixed from the factory, that what's meant by "factory mixed pack". But only the most popular and common. Certainly you can get black. But when I buy black, it's mixed at the store. Fleet colors (Omni not PPG, or whatever they call Omni now) are often mixed at the factory.

[smooth 56]

Been reading threw this I'm no pro but my experience with base,clear is 2 gallon's of clear is not going to be enough for a cut and buff for a car the size of your's. I went threw 4 gallon's on my 56 to get it flat, learned to put 6 coat's on so I know I will not sand threw. Sound's like a lot until you start sanding that is just how I do it a little more expense but you wont be repainting.

[chevynut]

Smooth, thanks for the input. Wow, I would have never thought 4 gallons of shootable clear wasn't enough. I thought when sanding clear you used 1000-1200 grit paper that hardly takes anything off. I've read that 4-5 coats is enough, but it depends on what's defined as a "coat". I guess different painters put it on differently.

[smooth 56]

Yes you do use 1000,1200 grit but to really get all the orange peal out you end up deeper than you would think. I like to let the paint cure for a wile to before I start to sand not saying you can't sand rite off but thing's will come back when the paint cures.

[chevynut]

Yeah, I expect the painter will want to let the car sit for a day or two before sanding and buffing. But it's my understanding that it's easier to do right after painting, instead of waiting weeks to do it. I think the real critical thing is to get a good coat of clear everywhere, so you don't sand through. I don't think I'll be buffing the bottom of the car, and I hope he's a good enough painter that I don't have to do anything there.

[Troy]

Cnut,

I hear MAACO does very good paint jobs if you do all of the prep work!!! And for only a few hundred dollars!!!:D ps I'm scared shitless about the paint when it comes time, I can imagine how you feel!

[LEE T]

Cnut,

I hear MAACO does very good paint jobs if you do all of the prep work!!! And for only a few hundred dollars!!!:D ps I'm scared shitless about the paint when it comes time, I can imagine how you feel!
That sounds reasonable, so I helped a friend do that back in the late 1960s, but the main problem with it is the paint they use.

[chevynut]

Sorry guys, I'm not going to cut corners like that now. :) I can't imagine them doing all that masking and buffing for a few hundred bucks and doing it right. There are probably some good painters working at MAACO and if I could find someone like that to do a "side job" where he didn't have to work on the clock for the company at a flat rate I'd consider it if I saw some of his work. Just too much risk, imo. I'd let my brother do it before I did that, I think.

Painting a car is like finishing drywall in a house...it's the last thing you see and if it's not done right it looks like crap. I hung the drywall in my basement when I finished it, but I had someone else tape and texture it. I didn't want to do it because I'd know where every little defect was and it would bug me. Same with painting my car. ;)

[Troy]

I was just kidding!!! I had a neighbor that owned a used car lot and he used to have cars painted at Maaco If he didn't sell the car quick the paint would turn bad really quick.

[chevynut]

My brother and I went over to visit the painter today who was recommended to me by my interior guy. Larry said he does some really nice work, is very meticulous, and has painted several award-winning cars. He had a one-of-a-kind '59 (I think) Maserati there that they just finished and the paint on it was truly amazing. It was as flat as a mirror, and flawless everywhere. He was working on a 55 Chevy sedan that was in primer and another rare 1953 European car that has just been "restored" but not to the owner's standards, so they were re-doing it. There was a couple of other cars in bare metal including a nice '69 Camaro that looked like they were waiting for bodywork and paint.

He lives out in the country about 45 minutes southeast of me, and has large shop with a paint booth in it next to his home. It's a little further than I would have liked, but with a trailer it won't be a problem getting my car over there on a rotisserie. He's also a hunter like me and one of his employees is a bowhunter. :)

I took my computer with me to show him some pics of my car. He told me he was very impressed with what I've done, and that he could see I was a lot like him when it came to being meticulous about my work. He liked the way my car looked especially the custom sheetmetal. I showed him pics of my fender/door/hood gaps, and of my metalwork, prep, priming, and block sanding. He seemed very comfortable with what I've done so far. He also said he really liked the color I have chosen for the car.

I told him I was mostly looking for someone with a paintgun, a steady arm, and a good eye who was as picky as I was, and was willing to work with me. I told him I was retired and I wanted to help with the sanding and masking, and anything else that I could because I like doing this stuff and would rather not just watch the progress. I said I had access to a booth and probably could paint the car myself, but I wasn't confident enough to do that and wanted some help. After I showed him what I had and what I wanted to do, I asked him if he was interested. He said he was and would love to work with me. In fact, my brother said he seemed to act like he really WANTED to paint my car.

I asked if he worked by the hour or how he dealt with paint jobs. He said he did work by the hour, gave me his shop rate, and I asked for an estimate of the time involved to do what I wanted. He's working on that and will e-mail it to me.

I told him I wanted to get some of the parts ready to paint and bring them with the frame (on a rotisserie) some time before the body is ready to be painted. That way I can be working on frame assembly and hopefully have it done by the time the body is painted. He said he could probably fit the frame in between other jobs. I figured if I took some of the under-hood sheetmetal and fenderwell parts with me we could paint it ahead of time and not have to deal with it in the booth when the body is finally painted.

He told me a few things he does to ensure that he gets a great paint job, one of which is to wet sand the sealer to make it perfectly smooth before painting. He lets it dry for 2 days, then wet sands all of it and then shoots the basecoat. That way he says the basecoat lays perfectly flat, which you can see in the finished paint.

He told me he prefers to use european bases (Glasuirt, Sikkens, etc.) and duPont clears, but will use whatever I want to use. He says the duPont clears buff out better, but the PPG clears are harder, therefore harder to buff. I can also supply the paint and the clear if I want to or he can get it for me. I can also help him wet sand the sealer and the clear before buffing. I really like his flexibility.

I mentioned that I have used PPG products all the way from bare metal and was told not to change brands. He said he used to feel that way too, but has mixed brands with no problems over the years. He also said that he would use whatever brand I wanted to use and has used PPG a lot.

So it looks like I might have found what I want, but I'll have to see how much time he estimates it will take to make sure we're on the same page. I don't know what pace he works at.

[chevynut]

By the way we talked about how many "coats" to apply. He said he once hired a painter to work with him, gave him 3 gallons of clear and told him to apply 4-5 coats on a car. The guy told him he was finished, and still had a gallon left. He asked how many coats he applied, and he said 4-5. So the bottom line is that you need to apply a certain volume of clear on a car, not just "coats" because one guy's "coat" is different than another guy's.

I suppose if you could estimate how many square feet were on a car and how thick you wanted the finished clear to be, then you could estimate the volume needed. That's basically how I epoxied my shop floor.

[Bihili]

Let's look at your car from his point of view.

His first impression would be, here is a car I can use to promote my business when your are done.
Your car would be a marketing promo for future high end business.

If you agree to refer business or put his name on a sign at car shows or some other promo then maybe you could work out a agreement in advance and get a discount.

I like the idea of wet sanding the sealer but I thought the sealer had to be sprayed within a few hours of the base coat.

[chevynut]

Bill, you may be right. He did seem very interested in doing my paint and knows that I'll probably show it some.

The sealer will be DPLF which is what he usually uses. My understanding is the re-coat time is 7 days, and that's without sanding. So he lets it cure for 2 days and sands it too. Seems like it should work well. He said it really does make a difference in a high-end job.

I can see it now...blisters on my fingers from wet-sanding. :)

[MP&C]

Laszlo, sounds like you found the right guy...

[chevynut]

I finally got the estimate from the painter for my Nomad. He's a time and materials shop and charges $55 an hour for labor and a flat $4 per hour for supplies (sandpaper, masking paper, tape, buffing materials, etc.). We're planning to do the underside of the car, firewall, and under-hood sheetmetal in matte clear so it adds some different texture to the car and keeps everything from being so shiny. The bottom of the car is nowhere near flat and smooth so it will help tone that down some. It will also add a little contrast with the frame, which will be the same color as the car but in gloss clear.

That use of matte clear adds more masking work to the body and other parts, but requires no sanding or buffing. The time estimate also includes coating my wheelwells with urethane bedliner, and painting the intake manifolds. There are two or three colors involved, so that adds masking time. I think I may have underestimated the time to mask everything between colors and between car sections especially for the body.

I thought his paint labor time was a little high, at 56 hours total, which was about the same as my total including sand/buff labor. What surprised me was the sand and buff time estimate at 60 hours (show quality). That's a week and a half of full-time sanding and buffing, which seems excessive to me based on no experience doing it. However, this guy does great work so he should know what it takes. He's obviously a perfectionist.

I think his paint time was a little high for all phases but again it was an estimate, not a quote. He estimated the frame paint at 10 hours, and I figured 6-8. Surely it can be done in one full-day shift when it rolls in on a rotisserie ready to shoot with sealer, base and gloss clear when it arrives. I don't plan to sand and buff the frame unless it absolutely needs it. Some of the other paint times seemed high to me too, and maybe he kind of planned for worst-case. He had 8 hours for the inner fenders, radiator cover, and intake manifolds all in matte clear. The radiator cover may be 2 colors so that will add time to what I estimated. I still think it's under a day's work for all that.

Also, we discussed not using a sealer on the body after all. He said it takes more work, and it's not really necessary given that I will have a final coat of sanded K36 on the car. I mentioned I wanted some white under the orange to make it "pop" in the sun, and he suggested a white basecoat since it's thin, goes on very smooth, and doesn't need sanding. Do you guys think sealer is required?

This was only an estimate, and the actual time could be significantly lower (or possibly higher). Obviously there's a little drying time here, but I think it's only 15 minutes or so between coats. It also doesn't consider me helping with handling, masking, sanding, and anything else I can do. He has no problem with me doing what I can and want to do. I may just paint the intakes and some other parts myself since I have the stuff to do it, although if it only takes a couple hours I may as well let him to it.

I can't wait to get started. Gotta get moving on finishing up the interior construction, finishing the new shop, and get back to blocking the car so I can blow it apart.

[MP&C]

Not sure what he's using, but today's urethanes have up to about 1 hour between coats. This time of year I have to run a torpedo heater to keep up on the heat. Painted some bus parts a couple weeks ago and had $75 just in Kerosene to keep the place up to temps.. I can imagine in your area that is an expense he has as well. Part of the "paint time" may be getting the parts up to temps, unless he keeps his shop nice and cozy all year round..

[Rick_L]

I am probably not in the majority here, but to me a "sealer coat" is for having a uniform color when you start shooting color. So that the color builds/hides evenly everywhere. I.e., no sand throughs.

K36 is sometimes shot as a "sealer". Mixed with reducer similar to the way epoxy primer is mixed for use as sealer. If your final sanded coat of K36 has no sand throughs, this is effectively the same thing. I.e., there's nothing to "seal".

Another compromise choice you may want to consider is to shoot an epoxy primer sealer coat using the DPLF48 which is white.

[chevynut]

Robert, yes I think he keeps the shop warm all the time since he has several projects in progress. I never thought about the frame being cold when it gets there, and having to warm up. But if I leave it for 24 hours in the corner it should be fine. Maybe I'll run it over on a Saturday and have him paint it on Monday or something like that.

Rick, Matt said essentially the same thing as you said about sealer. If there's no color variation in the primer, you don't need a sealer. He said K36 is perfectly good to shoot over without a sealer. I have noticed that this orange color does change some with the color of the primer, particularly in the bright sunlight. For some reason he gave the estimate using sealer in some places but not in others, which I don't understand yet.

[chevynut]

I just added up the bases, clears, reducers, and hardeners that my painter (Matt) told me I'd need and got a bit of a shock. I was expecting to pay $2000 or so for all the materials, and it came to around $3000 plus shipping. And that's just for paint, not masking and sanding/buffing! :eek:

We're buying a total of 4 colors of basecoat, considering the 2 on the body, then some charcoal for the interior. We're also using white base under the colored base, instead of sealer to help brighten up the color in the sun. That's a total of 3 1/2 gallons of PPG DBC base.

The frame will be body color with gloss clear. Then we're using both gloss and matte clear on the body. The matte clear will be used on the underside of the car, firewall, and inner fenders as well as the underside of the hood. We're mixing the flat clear with semi-gloss to get something in-between that he feels looks better. That's a total of 3 gallons of clear.

Then you have all the various reducers, hardeners, etc. and I haven't even thought about the bedliner material for the wheelwells....it really adds up! :p

[chevynut]

I priced all my paint material locally and it came to $4800 plus tax. Holy sh!t. One gallon of the body color is $1168.45! :eek:

[MP&C]

Welcome to painting. :p


I painted my motorcycle in 1996 and had almost 1000 in materials..

[Rick_L]

I thought your material costs might be pretty high - but they're even more than I expected.

What clear are you using, and what's the product code on the flat clear? I didn't know PPG had flat clear premixed.

[chevynut]

The gloss clear we're using is DCU2021. The semi-gloss and flat clears are from their "Global" line and are D8117 and D8115, respectively, sold by the liter. The flattened clears take D8239 hardener and DT reducer. They cost almost twice as much as the gloss clear and I'm not sure why he doesn't just add flattening agent to the gloss clear. But he's the expert, not me. :)