C4 Frame Project

[Custer55]

I started my project about 3 years ago when I found the C4 parts I needed at the Iola car show swap meet. I started thinking about doing a frame several years before that. My wife has a 90 Corvette and after taking some measurements on her Corvette and my 55 it seemed to be something that would work well as the track width is almost identical. My 55 is about 190 pounds heavier than the Corvette so there pretty close. The front to rear weight balance is also very close.
The first step in the project was to set my 55 on blocks at the desired ride height and take a few pictures.
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I cut an old tire from the Corvette in half so I could put it in the wheel wells and made cardboard wheels to get an idea what it would look like.

The next step was to build a frame table from 3 x 3 square tube to mount the frame on. I drilled and tapped the top and both sides of all the tubing so I can bolt fixtures in place on the table as needed. Needless to say this took quite a while. I don't have any pictures of just the table but you should be able to see it some of the pictures to follow.

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I started with mounting the rear end as I figured it would be easier the the front stub. Just some tabs under the frame, a cross member for the upper shock mounts and pinion mount and the dog bones. I still need to figure out how I want to mount the rear sway bar. It doesn't look like it will work above the frame to the rear because of gas tank and body clearance, so I may try putting it forward of the rear end at the bottom of the frame. I still need to check on muffler and exhaust clearance before I decide on that though.


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Next up was to cut out the original cross member and position the Corvette cross member on axle and chassis center lines and at ride height.


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The next step was to fabricate the new frame rail sections from 1/8" steel plate.


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Here is the radiator saddle cross member welded in place. I made this from four pieces in the same manner as the front frame rail sections.

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Here is where I'm at now. Bracing plates between the original frame and the new frame rails tacked and plug welded in place. Next up is the transmission cross member / x member. I'll add some more pictures when I get started on that.

Brian.

[NickP]

Looks like some fun. Did you rotate the rear batwing mounts for the 4 degrees of pinion angle to match the engine? Chevynut will appreciate your efforts too. Keep the pics and updates coming.

[carls 56 (RIP 11/24/2021)]

nice, your way beyond what I could ever do. :cool: ...... so what you do after lunch? :D

[chevynut]

I started my project about 3 years ago when I found the C4 parts I needed at the Iola car show swap meet. I started thinking about doing a frame several years before that.

Only 3 years? :) When my brainstorm hit me was when I was at a car show at a local Chevy dealer several years ago. There was a blue C4 vette there with the hood flipped up and I was looking at the suspension pieces....it amazed me that they were all aluminum. I thought it would be great to use the a-arms and whatever else I could use on my Nomad. At the time I didn't even know anyone was already doing these conversions, but I searched the internet and found a Roush Engineering website and they were doing one for a tri5 using the 4 plate method you are using. Not long after that I got a Super Chevy or CHP magazine and there was a red C4 conversion frame on the cover. It was Roush's. That's when I decided to move forward with my Nomad. I spent weeks laying it all out to make sure everything fit, after I bought the suspensions and took measurements. Today it seems like such a simple thing.


My wife has a 90 Corvette and ... the track width is almost identical.

If by track width you're referring to the tire centerlines, they're kinda close. The tri5 track width is 58" in front and 58.9" in the rear. The late C4 is 59.6" in front and 60.4" in the rear. However, the wheel mounting surface is quite a bit wider on the C4 than the tri5 as you probably know.


My 55 is about 190 pounds heavier than the Corvette so there pretty close.

Everyone thinks the tri5s are such heavy cars, but they're not. They're just roomy. :)

A '90 vette coupe is 3255 pounds and a convertible is 3301 pounds curb weight. The ZR1 was 3479 pounds. A stock 55 Chevy 2-door BelAir sedan is 3285 curb weight with a 3-speed. A C4 suspension will knock 150 pounds or so off of that.

Looks like you're planning to use the stock C4 springs. It should be fine in the rear since they height is adjustable, but the front is sometimes tricky to set up at the right ride height. Some of it depends on the engine you use. Front ride height isn't very adjustable on these suspensions unless you use coilovers.


I still need to figure out how I want to mount the rear sway bar. It doesn't look like it will work above the frame to the rear because of gas tank and body clearance, so I may try putting it forward of the rear end at the bottom of the frame. I still need to check on muffler and exhaust clearance before I decide on that though.

I have done it both ways. Newman puts it in front, but it's visible from the side of the car. In the rear it interferes with the stock gas tank. I've looked at solutions and there are a couple I came up with. One is to use a swaybar that has shorter arms, or shorten the C4 swaybar arms. That will make the swaybar stiffer so I'd use one of the smaller diameter ones. Another solution is to use a different gas tank. I've done that and mounted it to the frame instead of the body. If you need a new tank anyhow, it's a good solution.

Keep up the good work and keep us posted on progress. ;)

[Custer55]

I had the brackets attached when I set the rear end in place and I also have spacers between the brackets and the rear end so there will be some adjustment if needed.
Brian

[Custer55]

nice, your way beyond what I could ever do. :cool: ...... so what you do after lunch? :D

Thanks, It sure keeps me busy. :)
I started out with some smaller projects like the my custom made exhaust tips (Oval shaped kind of like the Cup Cars)

[Custer55]

Only 3 years? :) When my brainstorm hit me was when I was at a car show at a local Chevy dealer several years ago. There was a blue C4 vette there with the hood flipped up and I was looking at the suspension pieces....it amazed me that they were all aluminum. I thought it would be great to use the a-arms and whatever else I could use on my Nomad. At the time I didn't even know anyone was already doing these conversions, but I searched the internet and found a Roush Engineering website and they were doing one for a tri5 using the 4 plate method you are using. Not long after that I got a Super Chevy or CHP magazine and there was a red C4 conversion frame on the cover. It was Roush's. That's when I decided to move forward with my Nomad. I spent weeks laying it all out to make sure everything fit, after I bought the suspensions and took measurements. Today it seems like such a simple thing.



If by track width you're referring to the tire centerlines, they're kinda close. The tri5 track width is 58" in front and 58.9" in the rear. The late C4 is 59.6" in front and 60.4" in the rear. However, the wheel mounting surface is quite a bit wider on the C4 than the tri5 as you probably know.

I took my measurements on the outside of the tires front and rear. I have aftermarket wheels and tires and dropped spindles in the front so mine is already wider than stock. Our 90 Vette is the same in the rear and just a tiny bit narrower in the front.



just roomy. :)

A '90 vette coupe is 3255 pounds and a convertible is 3301 pounds curb weight. The ZR1 was 3479 pounds. A stock 55 Chevy 2-door BelAir sedan is 3285 curb weight with a 3-speed. A C4 suspension will knock 150 pounds or so off of that.

I weighed both cars at the local race track (Paved stock cars) where I work part time. I don't remember the exact weight but my 55 was about 190 lbs heavier. Should be pretty close with the weight savings the C4 suspension has. The weight at each wheel is very close also so the front to rear balance is very close also (Stock cars are weighed on a separate scale for each wheel)

I do plan to use the Corvette springs, but have the upper shock mounts set up so I can convert to coilovers if needed.

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a swaybar that has shorter arms, or shorten the C4 swaybar arms. That will make the swaybar stiffer so I'd use one of the smaller diameter ones. Another solution is to use a different gas tank. I've done that and mounted it to the frame instead of the body. If you need a new tank anyhow, it's a good solution.

Keep up the good work and keep us posted on progress. ;)

I post more pictures as I go.
Brian

[Custer55]

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This week I started on mounting the rear sway bar. I decided to put it in front of the rear axle down low on the frame.
The top of the bar in middle will sit at the bottom of the frame, and the bottom of the bar will be 7/8 to 1" below the frame. The sway bar mount brackets will be about a half inch below the frame. This will allow enough room for exhaust system etc. without causing a huge ground clearance problem. I may need to make a slight notch on the outside of the frame rail to clear the bar on up travel. Next will be to fab the mounting tabs for the lower end of the links. This will go between the lower shock bracket and the original shock mount tab.
That's it for now, I'll update my progress in a week or so.
Brian

[chevynut]

Looks to me like you might avoid interference with the frame if you turn the swaybar over or shorten your link. This is the only one I ever did that way....

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[Justin@ECP]

How do they drive with the C4 stuff on there?

[rockytopper R.I.P 5-13-2017]

Very Nice!!

[chevynut]

How do they drive with the C4 stuff on there?

The guys who have driven their cars with Newman's or my frames say they drive like a modern car, like a Corvette, and "like it's on rails" or "like a slot car". The power rack is 2.36 turns lock to lock (high perf ones are 1.96 turns) and caster is 6 degrees for stability on the highway. You get 4-wheel discs (11.5" or 12" OEM standard) and all C4 rears are POSI. I figure the setup takes 150 pounds or more off the stock frame.

[Custer55]

Good to know. :) Makes me want to keep working on mine.
I'll post a progress udate in a few days.
Brian

[Justin@ECP]

The guys who have driven their cars with Newman's or my frames say they drive like a modern car, like a Corvette, and "like it's on rails" or "like a slot car". The power rack is 2.36 turns lock to lock (high perf ones are 1.96 turns) and caster is 6 degrees for stability on the highway. You get 4-wheel discs (11.5" or 12" OEM standard) and all C4 rears are POSI. I figure the setup takes 150 pounds or more off the stock frame.

Takes all the floatiness(yep, that's a word) out of the OE setup. They are great cruisers, but I bet it's a lot of fun to do some carving with one on C4 suspension!

[Custer55]

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I took some time off from the frame project to do a side project last week. I built this bending brake to bend 1/8" up to 6" wide. I did do a test bend on a piece of 2" wide 3/16" that worked pretty well also. I made it out of 1 1/2 x 2 rectangular tubing (1/8" wall). I used this because I had a bunch of 2 foot pieces from the local steel suppliers surplus stock. You can make one with flat stock or angle iron as well, you just have to make sure the center of the pivot point is right where the top corner of stationary bed meets the top corner of the bending bed. I made 2 different hold down pieces, 1 from the rectangular tubing that puts a nice radius on the bends but you can't quite get a full 90 degree bend, or do a tight u-bend. The second hold down is just a piece of 3/8 x 4" flat stock I had laying around which works well for finishing the 90 degree bends and the tight u-bends. in the last 2 pics you cans see the spacer (made from 5/8 dom tubing drilled to 3/8 in the center) to let the handle pivot freely and a couple of test pieces I bent up. Of course this led to some shop reorganization and a new workbench to mount the brake to. I should have built one of these years ago though, It sure beats the heck out using the bench vise and a hammer!

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Up next on the frame is the center cross member. I'll finish up on the rear sway bar later. I am building the cross member similar to the Art Morrison frames. So far I have the rear bulkhead built. I am using 3/4" x 1 1/2" .080 wall rectangular tubing and 1/8 x 3 flat stock to form an I beam. The exhaust holes are 4" x 1/8" wall round tubing, I used a 4" hole saw to make the holes for tubing to slip into. The center hoop I built a form and bent the tubing around it with the help of the acetylene torch. I'll probably add a piece of 1/8 flat in the lower part of the center hoop once I mock up the engine, trans and drive shaft so I know how much clearance is needed. The plan for the rest is to make another bulkhead like the rear one about 2' in front of it, and tie the 2 together with I beams parallel to the drive shaft tunnel and then angling out to just behind where the original rear motor mount were. The trans cross member will be bolted in where needed. This should make the frame quite a bit stiffer in the middle without added a bunch of weight.
Slow but sure I keep making progress.
Brian :)

[chevynut]

If you really want cool, cheap, easy to use brake to bend thick steel, I recommend one of these:

http://www.swagoffroad.com/20-TON-Press-Brake-DIY-Builder-Kit_p_40.html

It Is capable of bending mild steel in the following length and thickness.

19" = Full bending width of the bottom die on anything 1/8" or thinner.
15" in 3/16"
12" in 1/4"
5" in 3/8"


I have bent 3/8" thick steel with this that was 2" wide, and it didn't have any problems doing it. I bend 3.5" wide 3/16" steel regularly with ease. They also have a heavier duty version for a few more bucks that can bend 5/8" steel. The other nice thing is that you can put an angle gauge on it and get pretty accurate bends for multiple pieces.

All you need is a HF 20 ton press, which is something like $150 and has many other uses. You can even upgrade to air over hydraulic if you want to. SWAG Offroad also makes a finger brake if you prefer that. The other thing I've done is made large radius bends with this press brake by putting tubing over the upper die. It works great.

[Custer55]

That will be on wish list. I looked at the presses at HF before I decided to build my brake. I have less than $10. in materials in mine. :)

[chevynut]

Custer, I understand that sometimes you do what you have to do ;). When I built my firewall I ended up using angle iron clamped to my welding table to bend it. I couldn't have even bent it on a regular brake and it would have taken a fingered press-brake to do it, which I didn't have. When I built the base for my console I needed to make some reverse bends that I couldn't do on my 48" JET brake that I finally broke down and bought. So again I ended up bending some of it using angle iron pieces and clamps. I often need to bend short "joggles" and still haven't figured out how to do that with my current brakes so I have used my bead roller with some success, but it's very limited. I needed a slip roll to build my inner fenders and radiator cover, but I ended up using clamps an an oxygen bottle to bend the sheetmetal around.

It looks like you solved your problem by building your own tools...that's pretty cool. If you need to bend some longer or thicker pieces than your brake will handle, I recommend you take a look at the SWAG Offroad stuff.

[Custer55]

Not to much progress the last 2 weeks. Installed 2 new garage doors last weekend and I had to replace a front hub on my truck this weekend.
I did get a little bit done in between though.


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The second bulkhead in progress. This one will be just in front of the center inner body mount. The 3rd picture is the form I used to bend the center hoop.


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The center and top pieces of the I beam tacked in position. The 4" channel iron is clamped to the bottom of the frame to keep everything straight and aligned.
Nothing is welded to the frame at this point so it can be removed to drill the exhaust holes and finish welding.


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Removed from the frame to finish welding (clamped to the channel iron while welding) exhaust holes drilled and 4" tubing tacked in place.
The center picture shows the pieces drilled out for the exhaust holes. I weighed this piece on the bathroom scale at 10.8 lbs. so I would estimate the whole center section will add about 75 lbs. or so. Not to bad for the stiffness it should add to the frame.
That's all for now. Not a lot of progress but at least it's progress. :)

Brian

[Custer55]

I guess this should be called a bi-weekly update :) Here is what I've been working on.

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The start of mocking up the beams to connect the cross members.

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One done and media blasted, The second clamped to 4" channel iron for welding.

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Finished I beams welded in place. Now on to the front section of the cross member.

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Mock up for the front section and the 3" flats bent up an clamped in position. If I figured correctly I should be able to fit any transmission. Right now I have a Muncie 4 speed in My 55, but would like to update to a 5 speed or 6 speed eventually.

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Next up was making the angle bends in the upper and lower pieces. I made a double pie cut so the outside would have a bit of a radius instead of just a sharp mitered corner. The little slice in the middle just becomes like a filler rod when welding it up.

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Welds ground out to complete the bend. The rest of the pieces I clamped to the first one and tacked them up to keep them all at the same angle.

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Top and bottom pieces fitted to the cross piece and the frame. Next up is to drill the 2" lightening holes, pilot hole for the exhaust hole on the short front angle section, media blast the parts, tack everything up, finish weld, and so on. It's a good thing I have more time than money ;) (Never enough time either though)
That's it for now.
Brian

[Custer55]

It's been a while since the last update, Springtime comes with lots of extra projects!!;)
I have the front section of the cross member about done and tacked in position, ready to finish welding to the frame. The last step to finish it up is to make up some gusset plates for the center drive shaft hoops at the bottom. Those will just be tacked in until the engine and trans get mocked up. Also trans mount will need to be built.

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Tacked up and in position to get the angle for drilling the exhaust cut out hole.

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Hole sawed out and 4" tubing tacked in.

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Trans mount brackets ready to tack in position

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Progress as of tonight, 5-20-15. The total weight so far is about 57 pounds (I've been weighing the pieces on the bathroom scale as I go) so the whole thing shouldn't be more than 65 to 70 pounds when it's done.
Brian

[chevynut]

Looking good. The AME center section weighs about 75 pounds, fyi.

[Custer55]

Thanks, I'll be pretty close to the AME center section weight wise then :)

Did you get your frame painted yet? Looking forward to seeing pics with the paint on it.
Brian

[chevynut]

Brian, the frame is getting painted on Tuesday, if the schedule sticks. I may take it over on Monday evening so it's ready to go on Tuesday morning. It's on the rotisserie and I had a helluva time moving it on my recycled asphalt driveway, so today I got some 10" "off-road" pneumatic casters for it. That should make it easier to roll.

Can't wait to see some color. I'm having him paint the frame, radiator support, transmission support, and a paint sample panel that I can carry around and use to pick my other colors.

Meanwhile I've been doing a little work on my console.

[Custer55]

Not a lot of progress for this post. Just not as much time to work on things in the summertime.
Next project was to repair a section of the frame where the original front leaf spring mounts attached to the frame. These were already off the frame when I bought it and the previous owner wasn't to careful how they removed them leaving a small tear/hole, and the frame had a bulge where the hole for the spring bolt is located.
http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=4516&stc=1 http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=4517&stc=1 http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=4518&stc=1
The bad section cut out ready for a patch, and reinforcement pieces plug welded in place.
http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=4519&stc=1 http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=4520&stc=1
Repair section fitted and tacked in place, and then welded in, I found some steel in my scrap pile that was pretty close to the same gauge as the original frame. (about .090)
http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=4521&stc=1 http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=4522&stc=1
Backtracking a bit, Here is the lower braces for the center section trans hoops tacked in position. I'll finish welding these in place once the engine and trans are mocked up to make sure every thing clears.
http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=4523&stc=1 http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=4524&stc=1
Next up is to finish the rear sway bar mounting. Once I had the sway bar link bracket made it was pretty obvious it wasn't going to work. :cry: It was going to bind as the suspension moves, especially on down travel, so back to the drawing board. The plan is to move the sway bar forward so it clears the hub carrier when both are at their lowest travel position, and make a bracket so the end of the sway bar will be about where the bracket is now with the link going up to a new design bracket.
That's it for now. Back To The 50's Weekend in St. Paul coming up.:cool: For anyone who's never been there it's well worth the trip. 11,000 + cars 1964 and older on the Minnesota State fairgrounds, which is the best grounds for a car show I have ever been to. Lots of tree lined streets to park on! (Tons of tri-5 Chevys at the show too!!)
Brian

[chevynut]

Nice progress Brian. I had those same issues when I tried to mount the swaybar in front of the IRS. I got it to work with some tweaking but never really liked it mounted there. I know that's where Newman mounts his though, and I know people have had problems with the mount rotating.

I notice you have the same picture posting issue that I have too. :(

[Custer55]

Thanks, I don't know what happened with the pictures? Everything looked normal until I went to the preview post, That's when it went goofy.:confused:
Brian

[Custer55]

Just a little progress to report. I finished the rear sway bar link mount brackets with a new and hopefully better design. I will have the sway bar more or less level with the frame with the link going up to the bracket.
http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=4592&stc=1 http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=4593&stc=1
I made an L shaped bracket when combined with the lower shock mount sandwiches the hub carrier where the original shock bolt was located. The bracket follows the angle on the hub carrier which along with the shock should prevent the whole thing from rotating.
http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=4594&stc=1 http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=4595&stc=1
The sway bar link bracket that I made then bolts up to the lower shock/sway bar bracket. There should be enough clearance now to prevent any binding through the full range of travel.
http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=4596&stc=1 http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=4597&stc=1
View from the inside with the shock in place on the drivers side. The passenger side I have my mock up shock in place.
Next up is to fab up the front sway bar links. My plan is to make a bracket to bolt to the A-Frame and use Heim joints to make an adjustable front link.
That's it for now. Iola car show and swap meet coming up this weekend. :cool:
Brian

[chevynut]

Wow, that looks almost exactly like what I did for Wade's Nomad....

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=4598&stc=1

[Custer55]

It's been a while since my last update :cry: My son bought a pair of 1960 Thunderbird project cars after the Iola car show so most of my time has been working on setting up a work space for his project. I'm almost done with that so I have little progress to report.
http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=4980&stc=1http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=4981&stc=1
The white one is a pretty solid car from Oregon. The black one is pretty rusty but very complete. We should be able to build one good car from the pair and maybe a 2nd rat rod type car.
http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=4982&stc=1http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=4983&stc=1
One the C4 project, I bolted on a set of wheels and tires from my 95 Trans Am (245/16/50's) to check alignment. I used the string to make sure the front wheels were pointed strait then made sure the wheel base was right. Everything looked good so I went ahead and welded up the rear end mounts etc. solid (they had all previously just been tacked in place) PS I decided to just use the stock front sway bar links for now to save some time.
http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=4984&stc=1http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=4985&stc=1http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=4986&stc=1
http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=4987&stc=1http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=4988&stc=1
The next step was to unbolt the frame from the jig/table. Place the frame on jack stands and remove the table from underneath. This was fairly easy as I built the table so everything was bolted together. I then made ride height adjusters from 1" tubing and bolted them in place of the shocks to keep the frame at ride height bolted the wheels and tires back on and lowered it down to the ground. So now I have a rolling chassis:)
Next up is to build a 4 post body lift to get the body off my running car to switch out the frames. Still lots of work to do but at least I'm working on it again.
Hopefully it won't be so long before the next update.
Brian

[rockytopper R.I.P 5-13-2017]

That frame is looking SWEET!!!!!

[Custer55]

Since the frame is a rolling chassis now the next step is to get the body on it. I am building a 4 post body lift out of 2 x 2 square tubing. it will have a trolley on each post with arms that will go under the body at the rocker panels. I have the posts drilled every 6" and the trolleys will have 3 corresponding holes 2" apart so I will be able to set a pin in 2" increments. I plan to use high lift jacks under the lift arms to raise and lower the body since they have a ratcheting system that allows both raising and lowering 1 click at a time. Any kind of jack would work but the high lift have plenty of travel (48" on the pair I bought so far) and can be set up to use as a clamp or a spreader bar so they may come in handy for other projects also. I just got 2 for now ($60. each). I didn't want to buy 4 if they don't work, or if I can get by with 2 by lifting one end or side of the body at a time. The steel tubing and bolts cost about $260. I had some steel tubing on hand for the trolley rollers, base plates and some of the trolley plates. If I had to buy everything it would have been closer to $300 for the steel.
http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5039&stc=1
The 4 posts set up with cross pieces and braces bolted at the top. It will be 8 feet wide and the same length as the rocker panels where the lift arms will go.
The length can be changed by drilling different holes or using longer pieces of tubing.
http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5040&stc=1 http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5041&stc=1
A pair of trolley plated tacked together in the corners (so they can be drilled 2 at a time) with pilot holes drilled. I just rounded the corners to grind away the tack welds holding them together for drilling. The rollers are 1" DOM tubing with a 1/2" inside dia. The spacer tubes are 1/2" tubing with a 3/8" inside dia. They will bolt on the post with 3/8" bolts and will be able to freely go up and down the post without having to much play.
http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5043&stc=1 http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5044&stc=1
The trolleys bolted in place on the posts. I will make up the lift arms from 2 x 2 tubing once I know how long they need to be. they will bolt in between the trolley plates at the bottom with an angle brace bolted to the top.
Hopefully this will all work as planned.
Brian

[Custer55]

A quick update on the body lift progress
http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5060&stc=1 http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5061&stc=1
The lift arms finished and bolted into the lift trolleys. The arms will extend about 1 1/2" past the inside of the rocker panels. I have them set up higher on the posts so they are at a comfortable height to work on for now.
http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5062&stc=1 http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5063&stc=1
On this side I have cross brace between the lift arms tacked up which will get bolted in after its welded up. I placed the jacks where they will be used as well just to see how it will work. I think it should work well as I will be able to operate both at once as the jacks will go under the arms with both handles to the center of the lift. I will probably buy 2 more jacks so they can just be attached the lift posts at the top and bottom. That way 1 person can jack the body up by going side to side, or 2 people can lift it at one time. So I still need to make another lift arm cross brace and I think I will anchor the posts to the floor to make sure nothing can move while lifting the body. Also I am going to bolt a 2 x 2 the ends of the lift arms that will go under the rocker panels. In the 2 x 4 I may make a shallow saw cut for the pinch weld on the inside the rocker to set into.
Hopefully by the next post I will be ready to lift the body off of the original frame!!
Brian :D

[chevynut]

Wow, lots of nice fab work there. I removed and installed my Nomad body with two engine hoists by myself several times. I made some simple brackets to connect some chains to but to do that you need to have at least a 2-car garage to roll the body off sideways. Looks like you have som pretty tight quarters to work in and that lift should really help.

Did you ever think about using a couple of electric or manual winches and pulleys instead of the jacks?

[Custer55]

Thanks, my shop isn't as small as it looks in the pictures. It is 30 x 36 so you can just fit 2 cars end to end, and I have a divider wall in the middle so my work space is about a 15 x 20 area, just to much junk in the way. I had intended to use the other side for painting etc. but now my son has his 60 TBird project in there.
I hadn't thought of using a winch and pulley system (until now!!) It would sure be nice to be able to raise and lower the body with the touch of a button or two. I may have to look into that for the next project. I guess the best way to see how that would work would be to look at a 4 post car lift.

Brian

[carls 56 (RIP 11/24/2021)]

very nice, thanks for sharing Brian.

[Custer55]

Over the last couple of weeks I finished setting up the body lift, did some shop reorganization and cleaning so I am about ready to start to "disassemble"
http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5129&stc=1 http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5130&stc=1
I made some L shaped brackets out of 1/8" aluminum to hold the jacks in place. I used u-bolts to attach them to the post and bolted the other end through the holes in the top of the jacks. I attached some high density foam to the lift arms to protect the rocker panels. I got the foam from a seat cushion from Menards.
One of the flaws of my lift is the arms have to be unbolted from the trolleys to back the car into it. Not to big of a deal though as there is 3 bolts per trolley, 12 total for the whole lift to remove the lift arms.
http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5131&stc=1 http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5132&stc=1 http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5133&stc=1
A few shots of the car ready to start taking it apart before rolling it back into the body lift, and the new frame moved over to the other side of the shop to make room.
I got a start on disassembly tonight. I removed the rear bumper, drained the gas that was left in the tank so that can be removed, and got all the body mount bolts taken out. They sure came out a lot easier this time than they did 34 years ago when I did the original frame off resto!!! :)
Hopefully I'll have some pictures with the body off on the next update.
Brian

[rockytopper R.I.P 5-13-2017]

That's genus!!! A widow maker car lift!!!! I help build a similar lift outside to raise a cotton striper off of a farm tractor in my younger days. Been thinking of doing something similar on my build.

Here is picture of my widow maker sheet metal brake LOL. I used it on my first nomad tailgate rebuild.

http://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk243/rockytoppers1/IMG_8224.jpg (http://s282.photobucket.com/user/rockytoppers1/media/IMG_8224.jpg.html)

[WagonCrazy]

Necessity is the mother of invention...and you've demonstrated that nicely here. As long as it's strong enough to hold the weight of the body, you should be good to go. Most guys would have just opted for a used 2 post lift, but you've engineered something fully functional for your space here. And thank you for documenting and posting that. Gives the rest of us food for thought....

[Custer55]

Thanks guys, I sure hope it's not a widow maker!! I think it will be fine as I have the posts anchored to the floor with 3/8" drop in concrete anchors, and the top is tied off to my overhead shelves which are lag bolted into the side walls and the ceiling. The jacks have plenty of capacity as they are rated at 7,000 lbs each. I don't think the body should be should be much more than 2,000 lbs. if even. (I don't plan to remove the doors, trunk, glass, etc. if I don't need to.)
I have gotten a bunch of ideas since I have joined the site (The idea for my lift started with Wagon Crazy's camper jack 2 post lift set up) so I'll keep on posting :)
Brian

[rockytopper R.I.P 5-13-2017]

It looks plenty strong. The term "widow maker" comes from the jack itself and for good reason. How do the jacks clear the car? The handle has to open almost 90 degrees to operate?

The lift we made only used one jack. Each post had a row of holes like a jack stand so you could lift one trolley and pin it and move to the next. Going around until you had it completely lifted to full height and then pinned in place.
Rocky

[Custer55]

I have the jacks (4 so I don't have to mess around with moving them) positioned under the lift arms so the handles will go towards each other. They are angled just enough to clear each other so you can basically stand on the side between the jacks and operate 2 at one time. So I will be able to raise each side a click or 2 at a time or with a helper raise the whole thing at once. I have the posts and trolleys drilled with pin holes like a jackstand also.
Brian

[Custer55]

The body is off the old frame. The body lift worked great! :)
I started out by myself by lifting one click on the jacks on the drivers side, and then 2 clicks up on the passenger side and then alternating 2 clicks at a time on each side. This worked pretty well but was taking a while. After my son got home from work we each took a side and we had it up high enough to roll the frame out in no time. Tomorrow the plan is to pull the engine and trans out of the old frame and get that stored out of the way. Then I can roll the new frame in and see how if fits. I know the original axle snuber will need to be removed and probably will need to cut out a small section to clear the dog bone mounts. Also it looks like the gas tank will need to be moved back a few inches, but I won't know for sure until the frame is in place.
Still lots of work left but it's pretty cool to be at this point. :cool:
Brian

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5153&stc=1 http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5154&stc=1

The grill splash pan and fenders removed.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5155&stc=1 http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5156&stc=1

Everything out but the hood and steering column and steering box. I had to wait until my son was home to get the hood off, and I left the steering in to get the car lined up in the lift, then pushed it straight back out to remove the column and box.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5157&stc=1 http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5158&stc=1 http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5159&stc=1

The body up on the lift and the old frame rolled out. That thing was pretty oily and dirty from 25 years and 20,000 miles of cruising!!
It's a good thing I started lifting it slowly by myself as I forgot to unbolt the rear shocks until it was up off the frame a few inches. Woops!!
The lift was well worth the time and money to build as it worked great and will sure save time down the road on this project as well as on future projects.
Brian

[chevynut]

Very nice. It will be interesting to see how the body fits the new frame, and if you have any clearance issues at all. What engine and transmission are you running? How much front end suspension drop do you have? Nice work on the lift.

[Custer55]

Thanks Chevynut,
I'm pretty sure the floor pan will need to be trimmed or at least dimpled in for the dog bone mounts. Everything else should be ok if I didn't screw up on my measurements (always a possibility) For now the plan is to use the same small block and tranny I have now which is a 283 and Muncie 4 speed. I hope to upgrade to a 350 and 5 speed or 6 speed down the road. The car should sit about an inch lower than it did with 2" drop spindles. The rear should be about an inch lower also.

[Custer55]

Last night I lowered the body down on the new frame for the initial test fit. I had to remove the axle snuber bracket first. As I figured the dog bone mounts hit the floor pan, but other than that everything has plenty of clearance so that was a relief. The gas tank will need to be moved back a couple of inches to clear the tow rods also. There is plenty of room to move it back as it is about 8 inches from the back of the frame in it's stock position. The other thing is there will not be room to route the exhaust over the rear end as the trunk floor is to close, so I'll have to go under the center section the way it is on the stock Corvette set up.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5162&stc=1 http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5163&stc=1 http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5164&stc=1

Tonight I sprayed some gray primer around the dog bone mount with the body on the frame so I can tell where it needs to be clearanced out.
Then lifted the body back off so I can get the floor cut out for clearance. The plan is to make some little mini tubs in that area. I am thinking I will make them with a mounting flange and use body panel adhesive and pop rivets to attach them instead of welding them in. The interior is still in the car and the floor pan in that area is covered with Hush mat so I don't want to weld in the area if possible.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5165&stc=1

P.S. The body lift is working nice. I have found I can do 3 to 4 clicks on the jacks per side without a problem, so even by myself it doesn't take very long to lift or lower the body.
Brian

[rockytopper R.I.P 5-13-2017]

Awesome job Congrats!!!!!

[WagonCrazy]

Nice job on the lift Custer. You are experiencing the same kinds of mods I had to make to my Nomad to get it to fit onto CNut's C4 frame.
Dogbone to floor mods are shown here. http://www.trifivechevys.com/showthread.php/606-57-Nomad-C4-LS1-called-quot-Ozzy-quot/page4

Are you running the rear corvette swaybar? If so, you'll definately need to move the stock tank backwards, if you put the swaybar point towards the back of the car.

[Custer55]

Thanks guys,
I will have to make the same type of mods to clear the dog bones on mine also. I'll post pictures on that later. My sway bar is mounted under the frame in front of the rear end so the gas tank just needs to moved a few inched back to clear the rear end and toe rods.
Brian :cool:

[dobroplayer12]

Wonderful thread, guys, Im just starting to look at these swap with the c4 and this article is invaluable to me, thanks so much. great JIG.

[Custer55]

After the first time putting the body down on the frame I was able to see where I need to cut holes for dog bone mount clearance. I could tell pretty much where and how big to cut the holes by the gray primer sprayed around the mounts and the slight crease the mounts left in the body.
http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5200&stc=1http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5201&stc=1
With the body back up on the lift I cut out the holes and lowered the body back down to recheck clearance. The holes were just big enough to clear so it was easy to see just how much bigger to make them. Next step is to make the mini tubs to fill the holes. These will be made from 3 pieces. (2 sides and a middle)
http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5202&stc=1 http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5203&stc=1 http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5204&stc=1
To give the sides the same shape as the floor pan I cut a 2 x 4 in half to that shape then clamped the side piece in and hammered it over the 2 x 4.
http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5205&stc=1 http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5206&stc=1
The sides bent to a 90 with the curve to the floor pan. I know you could just do this with a shrinker but I don't have one so this is what I came up with.
http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5207&stc=1 http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5208&stc=1
the 3 pieces tack welded together. I bent a slight radius on all 3 where they meet to give them a rounded corner. The middle piece is just a rectangle bent to the curve of the side pieces to clear the dog bone mounts.
http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5209&stc=1 http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5210&stc=1 http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5211&stc=1
Finished mini tub with the welds sanded out and the flange on the wheel well side trimmed for clearance.
http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5212&stc=1
Finished tub held in place with sheet metal screws. Now I will need to do the other side of the car and lower the body to double check the fit. If everything looks good they can be permanently installed. The plan is to use metal epoxy and rivets. I don't want to weld them in because the back side of the floor pan is covered with hushmat (I melts really fast from just using the cut off wheel to cut the holes) and the interior is still in the car.
Brian :cool:

[NickP]

I love progress.

[Custer55]

Since the last update I built the mini tub/pocket for the dog bone mount for the driver side and got that screwed in place. Before lowering the body back on the frame to check clearance I removed the gas tank mounts since I knew the tank would have to be moved back a few inches.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5236&stc=1 http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5237&stc=1
These are the 3 pieces for the pockets before tacking them together. With this one welded up and screwed in place I lowered the body back down to check clearances before permanently installing them. (The body lift was sure worth the effort to build at this point!!)

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5238&stc=1 http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5239&stc=1
It's hard to tell in the pictures but everything looked good for clearance. My cross member clears the tunnel very well with 1/4" to 1/2" all the way around. While the body was still sitting on the frame I looked at everything to see where I will have room to run the brake lines, fuel lines, & emergency brake cables.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5240&stc=1 http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5241&stc=1
The mini tubs installed with metal weld epoxy and a dozen pop rivets in each one. You have to work fast with the epoxy as it sets up in 4 to 5 minutes.
The notch in the inner wheel well pinch weld is for the upper dog bone mount bolt removal. Next project is the gas tank relocation.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5242&stc=1 http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5243&stc=1
I decided to move the tank back 3" from the stock location so I made up a couple of strips of 18 gauge to weld the stock mounts to which will them be spot welded to the trunk floor.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5244&stc=1 http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5245&stc=1
For the rear mount bolts I just had to drill a new hole behind the original, but so the carriage bolt would sit below the floor I used a hole saw to cut out the upper trunk brace and then used a piece of 1" heavy wall tubing and a washer the same size as the hole saw to reform the trunk pan as best as I could. I then made a reinforcement plate from 16 gauge and filed the holes square for the carriage bolts and tacked them in place.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5246&stc=1 http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5247&stc=1
Strips with the relocated tank mounts welded to the trunk floor. I drilled to strips with 1/4 holes every 4" on each side to plug weld them in place. I used a
2 x 2 to wedge them tight to the trunk as I welded them in which worked pretty well.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5248&stc=1 http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5249&stc=1
The tank strapped in to check the fit. It looks like I may need to use a rubber spacer or weather stripping to lower the tank a hair as the filler neck is now just behind the trunk indent for it. I will also need to clearance the pinch weld where the filler neck goes. Also I will probably angle the filler neck back to the fuel door in the quarter panel. I'll most likely have to make a spacer for the mount at the top of the neck also, probably just an inch or so you can still reach the fuel cap.
Next up will be to repaint the areas with the mini tubs and the tank mounts.
It's probably a good thing I have till spring to get this thing back on the road.
Brian :)

[chevynut]

Nice job Brian. Since you don't have a swaybar back there, I assume you had to move the tank to clear the differential? I have been recommending a different, reasonably priced 16 or 18 gallon EFI-equipped tank for this application, especially if a guy needs a new tank anyhow. We mount the tank to the frame instead of the body.

[rockytopper R.I.P 5-13-2017]

Very nice fab work!!!!

[Custer55]

Thanks guys, I am learning a lot as I go on this project. Also getting lots of ideas from the site. :)
Yep, I had to move the tank back to clear the C4 rear end, mostly the toe rods, and to have enough room to get to the fuel lines, sender wire and the rear end itself with out having to remove the tank. I am just using my stock tank for now as it is in very good condition and I will be using my present engine with a carb. If I ever upgrade to EFI, TANKS has a reasonably priced tank that fits the stock location set up for EFI.
I did get the filler neck set up so it will work with minimal mods. Basically just a 1" spacer where it mounts to the inner trunk (I had to rebend and put a little twist in the mounting tab on the filler neck) and grind about a 1/4" or so off the pinch weld at the trunk pan for clearance.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5253&stc=1
I just need to get a shorter screw hers, The one I had is a little long!! The spacer is just 5/8" tubing, I may make one out of Aluminum later.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5254&stc=1
The filler neck just contacts the pinch weld so I will need to grind it out slightly,
Brian

[Custer55]

I have been working on setting up the motor mounts for the last week or so. After being on the fence about moving the engine up and forward to go over the steering rack, vs recessing the firewall to move the engine down and behind the rack I decided to go the first route and leave the firewall alone. That way I can see how this works out and still have the option to recess the fire wall down the road.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5304&stc=1 http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5305&stc=1
The first step was to grind away the rest of the original Corvette motor mounts.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5306&stc=1 http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5307&stc=1
With the body back on the frame I positioned the engine high to clear the steering rack. My engine is a 283 from a 62 Chevy (I bought the whole car for the engine for $35. back in 1977) so it doesn't have a harmonic balancer, just a pressed on pulley hub. I raised the engine enough to clear a 6 3/4" balancer however. The engine is about a 1/2" to 3/4" forward also so I can get the distributor in and out without pulling the engine. I made some L shaped brackets with 1/2" threaded rod adjusters that bolt to the front motor mount holes to adjust the height and level out the engine.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5308&stc=1 http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5309&stc=1
The motor mounts I am using are the aluminum ones from Speedway Motors. I reversed the arms (they bolt to the block plates) so they will point in a more downward direction. The arm ended up right in line with the steering shaft the other way so that would not have worked. I am setting the mounts up so they will bolt to the Corvette suspension cradle. I have the mount base plates cut and bent to fit the cradle with holes drilled where they will bolt in and a bigger hole drilled to access one of the bolts that holds the Corvette spring in place. I will tack weld them in place to fab the rest of the mounts. Once every thing is tacked up I will pull the engine back out, drill the holes in the base plates through into the Corvette cradle so it should all bolt back in and line up correctly. Since most of the bolt holes will be blind holes I am using 3/8" threaded inserts.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5310&stc=1 http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5311&stc=1
One mount arm fitted to the base plate ready to tack in place. I will also have a spacer on each side of the aluminum mount arm. The one in front of the arm is 5/8" to clear the spring bolt head, and I am putting a 1/2" spacer behind the arm also. This will allow me to move the engine slightly forward or backward if needed. I will put a slotted hole in the trans mount also to allow for this.
At this rate I should be on the road again by Spring!!
Brian :)

[chevynut]

Brian, to move the engine behind the rack is a big deal, especially when you look at your crank pulley as well as your damper. If you use a serpentine pulley or a 2-track v-belt, your engine would probably have to go back around 3-4" to clear them. I went through this with a BBC for a customer and we ended up moving the damper behind the rack and the pulley sat over the top of it. The pulley was smaller where it bolted to the damper, and larger further forward so it worked ok. It still required us to move the engine back about 4-5", but that was a BBC that we normally put 1.5" forward. The problem is he won't be able to use a different pulley if he changes out his accessories for some reason. This is how he wanted to install the engine.

[Custer55]

Brian, to move the engine behind the rack is a big deal, especially when you look at your crank pulley as well as your damper. If you use a serpentine pulley or a 2-track v-belt, your engine would probably have to go back around 3-4" to clear them. I went through this with a BBC for a customer and we ended up moving the damper behind the rack and the pulley sat over the top of it. The pulley was smaller where it bolted to the damper, and larger further forward so it worked ok. It still required us to move the engine back about 4-5", but that was a BBC that we normally put 1.5" forward. The problem is he won't be able to use a different pulley if he changes out his accessories for some reason. This is how he wanted to install the engine.

That's why I decided to just raise the engine up and leave the fire wall alone. I have it set up to clear with a 6 3/4" balancer also. I could have set it lower with the small pulley hub on my 283 but I would have had to redo everything if I put different sbc in at a later date with the 6 3/4" balancer. At least with the small pulley hub I shouldn't have to reclock the steering rack. Maybe just reroute the lines.
Brian :)

[Custer55]

My next project was to make the transmission mount. This will just be a short piece to bridge the gap in the frame center section, but it turned out to be more work than I expected.
I first made a flat piece to go across the flanges I added to the center section. Then I made a curved piece to match up to the height of the trans rubber mount.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5361&stc=1 http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5362&stc=1
After getting the top piece bent to shape I trimmed the ends to fit between the mount flanges, drilled holes and spot welded it to the bottom piece. I had intended the whole thing to sit on top of the center section flanges but It quickly became obvious that it would be a major pain to get it in and out so had to go to plan B. It will bolt to the bottom side of the flanges with a plate on top of the cross member sandwiching the center section flanges.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5363&stc=1 http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5364&stc=1
Here is the cross member with the sides welded in and the welds ground out. The 2nd picture shows the plates that will sit on top of the flanges with nuts welded in place. With 4 bolts on each end 2 will go thru the cross member into the top plate and 2 will go thru the cross member and the flange into the top plate. The slotted hole in the cross member is to allow the same forward or backward placement of the engine and trans as the motor mounts.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5365&stc=1 http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5366&stc=1
Here is the trans cross member bolted in place.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5367&stc=1
This picture shows the spacers in the motor mounts to allow forward or backward placement.
My son made me the spacers out of aluminum so I will be able to polish them to match the motor mounts (covered in tape right now to protect them from welding sparks). My son just completed his third semester in Machine Tool at the local Technical College, so I'll probably have some more projects for him if he has time.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5368&stc=1
This picture is my original 55 Chevy Steering (red) column next to the 78 Chevy van tilt column I plan to use. I bought the van column at the Iola swap meet many years ago for 30 or 40 bucks. The overall housing lengths are almost the same and both have a 2" diameter tube. The adapter from my Grant GT Steering wheel should also work on the van column with a minor mod to the horn connection in the column.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5369&stc=1
This shows the van column bolted in place. I was able to use all the stock mounts to bolt it in place. The steering shaft will need to be shortened so the intermediate shaft will clear the upper a-arm for sure. I might have to shorten the lower end of the column housing a bit also, but it should all work without to much trouble. The steering shaft is 3/4" dia. so I should be able to just cut it to length and machine or file some flats in the end to make it into a double D shaft.

Next up will be to pull the engine back out and finish the motor mounts.
Hope everyone has a Very Merry Christmas!!!
Brian :)

[Custer55]

Not to much progress over the holidays. Hope everyone had a good one!
Just finished up on the motor mounts tonight.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5405&stc=1
After pulling the engine and trans back out the first step was to drill the 1/4" holes in the base plates through into the Corvette K-member and then grind out the tack welds to remove them. Then drilled out 4 of the holes on each mount for threaded inserts and left 2 holes at 1/4" to use as locating pin holes. No special tools needed for the inserts, just a bolt with a couple of washers and a nut worked fine.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5406&stc=1
This shows the pins in place (welded in from the top side) so the mounts will bolt back in the same place they were mocked up in.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5407&stc=1
I used a threaded rod to keep the uprights in place while welding in the side braces.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5408&stc=1 http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5409&stc=1
Side pieces welded in place and welds ground, filed, and sanded out.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5410&stc=1
This shows why I had to leave an opening at the bottom to have access to get a wrench on the spring bolt.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5411&stc=1 http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5412&stc=1
One last step was to file out the motor mount bolt holes a little bigger to make it easier to get them in and out.
I clamped a washer with a slightly bigger hole with the bottoms lined up, and scribed where I needed to file it out. This way the bottom of the hole stays in the same placed so the engine won't drop down any lower.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5413&stc=1
Motor mounts bolted in place, ready to put the engine and trans back in place.
The next step will be to put the steering rack back in place so I can work on the steering column, then the clutch linkage, and the list goes on!! :)
Brian

[Custer55]

I got the engine back in place on the new motor mounts and trans mount last week. Everything went back in place and lined up well so that was good news. With the steering rack back in place the next project is to connect the steering column to the steering rack.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5473&stc=1 http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5474&stc=1
These pictures show the steering shaft mock up. I am using a straight coupler (17mm DD to 3/4" round) on the rack. Then I'll have a round 3/4" to a 3/4" DD shaft to extend the shaft up to the motor mount area. I'll probably pin and weld the round shaft to the straight coupler. From there I used 2 3/4" DD Borgeson u-joints. I made an adjustable length mock up shaft between the u-joint out of some old column parts from a 78 Chevy Caprice. It had a 1" tube with the 3/4" DD shape on the inside so the 3/4" DD shaft can slide in an out.
I could have just used a u-joint on the rack instead of the straight coupler, but it looked like it would have been to tight to the motor mount. By using the straight coupler on the rack everything clears a little better.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5475&stc=1 http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5476&stc=1
Its hard to tell in these pictures but I will need to shorten the steering column by about 1 1/4" or so to get better clearance to the upper control arm. That's ok because that is about the size of the opening for the column shifter arm which I will not need anyway. I just have it pushed back into the firewall farther in one of the pictures.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5477&stc=1
The last couple days I have been working the clutch linkage. This is the original mount bracket for the motor side which bolts to the bell housing. Since the engine is moved forward and up to clear the steering rack I need to adjust this bracket. After thinking about it for a while I figured out all had to do was drill new holes in the bracket to move it back the 3/4" the engine went forward and lower the pivot ball about 3/8". I drilled the holes 1/32" bigger than the bolts so there is some adjustment to it also.
For the cross shaft / Z-bar I bent a jog in the clutch pedal lever end to move it closer to the engine, and a corresponding jog in the clutch pedal rod. This was to get better clearance to the steering shaft. I am also fabbing a new frame mount for the Z-bar as it was missing from the frame. I'll post pictures of that on the next update.

Next up will be the steering Column mods.
Brian :)

[Custer55]

I finished up the clutch linkage and have that set up to work at least as well as it did before.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5493&stc=1
This is the bracket I made up for the frame side. The stud is just a temp to set things up made from 5/8" tubing. I will buy a new one or have my son make me one at school eventually.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5494&stc=1
Here the bracket is tacked to the frame. I will weld it solid the next time the body is off the frame and engine the engine is out.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5495&stc=1
This shows the jog in the clutch rod and cross shaft so it clears the steering shaft. If you look back at my last post you can see the clutch rod was jogged the opposite way. I had done this when I had different headers that stuck out farther from the engine. I just flipped the rod over where it attaches to the clutch pedal so it just needed a little bit of a tweak to get it lined up right.

Next project is the steering column mods. The column I am using is from a 78 Chevy van.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5496&stc=1
This the column after disassembly, I used an article from an old Classic Chevy World article as a guide. (July 1993 Issue) Pretty straight forward process except for the getting the shifter tube and shift collar out of the outer tube. There is a small plate with tabs that holds everything together that was a challenge to say the least to get out.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5497&stc=1
I needed to shorten the outer tube by 1 1/4" to get better clearance on the steering shaft. I basically just eliminated the shift lever opening at the bottom.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5498&stc=1
Here the end is tacked back in place. There is still an opening that needs to be filled from the shift lever.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5499&stc=1
I used masking tape to measure the length of the opening. It was much easier than using a flat ruler on a round tube.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5500&stc=1
I used my caliper to measure the opening width, locked the caliper in place and used it to scribe the width onto the piece cut out previously. (It's a swap meet caliper, $20. cheapie, works great for stuff like this).

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5501&stc=1
Filler piece ready to tack in place.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5502&stc=1
All welded up and ground smooth.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5503&stc=1
Inner tube shortened up the same 1 1/4". I didn't spend a lot of time grinding that one out as it will be on the inside where no one will ever see it again.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5504&stc=1
The next thing to do was filling the holes in the tilt head cover. The column had the automatic shift indicater screwed to the top and a hole for a light bulb that need to be filled as I won't be needing them.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5505&stc=1
I bent a sheet of copper to shape and clamped it in place uner the opening.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5506&stc=1
Here I have the filler piece clamped in place ready to weld in. You can see one of the screw holes just above the vice grip that needs to be welded shut.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5507&stc=1
All welded up and ground smooth. Should just need a skim coat of filler to look pretty good.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5508&stc=1
Next is the shift collar mods. I have the little bump to show what gear you were in ground off.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5509&stc=1
Here I have the shifter boss cut and ground off. I slipped the shift tube back in to make it easier to hold on to it. The collar is pot metal so I will probably just epoxy in some backing plates, then fill the holes with fiberglass reinforced body filler. I did it thay way on my original 55 Chevy column to get rid of the 3 on a tree shift lever boss and it has held up very well over the years.

Brian :)

[chevynut]

Very nice progress Brian. There are some welding rods out there that allow you to weld pot metal. I'm not sure who all offers them but I know Madmooks chrome plater uses that rod to weld liftgates if they're pitted or cracked.

What is your engine angle relative to the frame? It looks like your engine sits just about where my SBCs do fore and aft and you have the damper over the top of the rack. Did you have to raise the tranny tunnel at all?

[Custer55]

Very nice progress Brian. There are some welding rods out there that allow you to weld pot metal. I'm not sure who all offers them but I know Madmooks chrome plater uses that rod to weld liftgates if they're pitted or cracked.

What is your engine angle relative to the frame? It looks like your engine sits just about where my SBCs do fore and aft and you have the damper over the top of the rack. Did you have to raise the tranny tunnel at all?

Thanks Lazlo,
I've heard of the welding rods for pot metal but I'm just painting this stuff so I don't want to risk ending up with a blob of useless metal. The collar is pretty thin at the big end.

My engine is at about 1 degree down on the intake, and about 4 degrees when the angle finder is on the valve cover. That's with the frame at a 1 degree down in the front. I basically just set the engine so it just clears the rack at the balancer and put the trans up to where it still clears the stock tunnel. I could go a bit higher with the tranny if I cut the shifter hole bigger or made a bump out in it. It is about 3/4" forward as that is how much I had to move the holes on the clutch linkage bellhousing bracket to get that lined up. I plan to move the radiator in front of the core support.
Brian

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5527&stc=1

[Custer55]

Work continued this weekend on the steering column. This is turning into another project that takes forever!;)

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5528&stc=1
Back up piece for the gear indicator notch.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5529&stc=1
Epoxied in place. The plastic so I don't have a vice grip stuck to the column. :D

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5530&stc=1
Back up piece for the shift lever hole.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5531&stc=1
Clamped in place ready to epoxy in place. If you need a good spring clamp these a made in the USA by Pony. I got them at Menards. They have really strong springs in them, much better than the ones made in China!!

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5532&stc=1 http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5533&stc=1
Inside and outside views of the back up pieces epoxied in place. I used 22 gauge sheet metal so it would not get to thick on the inside.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5534&stc=1 http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5535&stc=1
The tilt head cover and shift collar with body filler applied and sanded out. I used fiber glass reinforced filler for the first coat on the shift collar, then Rage Gold for the second coat, (First coat on the tilt head cover) The Rage Gold is a nice peachy color with the red cream hardener, it came with blue but it developed chunks so I had to toss it. The Rage Gold is nice to work with. It sands very easily without clogging your sand paper.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5536&stc=1
First coat of primer on each.
Brian :)

[Custer55]

Work continued this week on the steering column. Another one of those never ending projects. ;)
I had to make 3 extra holes in the column tube. 1 for the upper column mount and 2 to get the turn signal wires inside the column to a point they come out under the dash like the original column. The 78 Chevy van column I am using the wires just run outside the column tube under a cover that snaps on to the bottom of the tube.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5634&stc=1
This slot is to match what is in the original column. There is a tab on the column mount bracket that fits in this slot. Pretty easy, just drilled a pair of holes and cut and file out the middle.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5635&stc=1
This is the start of the hole in the middle of the column for the wires to come back out of.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5636&stc=1
A little tricky here to cut out between the holes as there isn't much room for error. I wish I hade saved some of the more worn out cut off wheels as a smaller dia. may have helped with this.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5637&stc=1
I used a Dremmel tool with a small carbide cutter to finish cutting out between the holes.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5638&stc=1
The finished hole after a lot of filing to debur and radius all the edges.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5639&stc=1
This shows how the wires will go into the column tube under the shift collar and back out in the middle of the tube under the dash.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5640&stc=1
I made a cover for the original hole for the neutral safety switch. I didn't weld it shut in case I need to use the opening to help fish through the wires.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5641&stc=1
I sprayed some color on a few small parts including the tilt head. The tilt head just needs the color in a small area that may or may not show depending on the position the head is in. I just spayed a few parts first to make sure my paint was still good. It was a can of Centari enamel that I last used in the late 80's or early 90's. I seeme to be fine.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5642&stc=1 http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5643&stc=1 http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5644&stc=1
After some priming and sanding I got 2 coats of red on the rest of the column parts. The plan is to re-assemble the column hopefully without chipping any paint, then sand it down with 600 grit and spray on a couple more coats of paint.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5645&stc=1
If you look close you can see where I filed down the shift collar where it slides over the shift tube to gain clearance for the turn signal wires. Since I will just be a cosmetic part of the column strength won't be an issue.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5646&stc=1 http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5647&stc=1
The lower bearing in this column was pretty sloppy so I needed a new one. The problem is nobody sells them for Chevy/GM columns that I could find. The solution is Jeep used GM columns in CJ's and Cherokees in the 70's. The bearing kit I bought is for a Jeep and is identical with the exception of the shaft size. 3/4" for the Chevy and 1" for the Jeep. Simple soulution is a 3/4" by 1" spacer I got from Lowes for a couple of bucks. It fits fairly snug on the shaft but I will probably tack weld it just to be safe once I know for sure exactly where it needs to be.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5648&stc=1 http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5649&stc=1
The steering shaft itself needed to be shortened also. I just cut it off (about an inch longer than it needs to be!!) and ground and filed the end to accept a 3/4" DD universal joint. Using the masking tape as a guide worked pretty well. I just keep checking with my caliper to make sure to get the flats correct.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5650&stc=1 http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5651&stc=1
Looking pretty good at this point. The universal just slides on snugly. I may need to tweak it a bit once the shaft is cut to final length. You can see where the bearing spacer goes.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5652&stc=1
Ended today building an assembly stand to put the column back together. Just made out of some 2 x 6's so it can be clamped to the work bench top or side. The uprights/clamps to hold the column come apart like the main caps on a crankshaft. I drilled the holes over size so I can put padding between the column tube and the clamps.

Brian

[Custer55]

Time to start putting the steering column back together. One thing I want to mention is on the lower column bearing kit. It turns out the kit for a Jeep is not exactly the same as my Chevy van column. The Chevy van column flares out slighty at the bottom so it about .040 smaller than the Jeep column (at least that's the difference between the size of the bearing retainer. Not to big of a deal though, I just blasted and painted the old parts that fit and just used the new bearing with the spacer.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5681&stc=1
Here I have the column in the assemble stand. I cut some strips from a Sham Wow to protect the paint. It held it steady but you could still rotate the column and slide it back and forth so it worked out pretty well.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5682&stc=1
Hard to see in the picture but there is a retainer ring that goes between the shift tube and the outer tube that is held in place with a couple of washers and a clip. The tilt head base screws on to the retainer ring with 4 bolts.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5683&stc=1
The tilt head base bolted in place. This also holds the shift tube and outer tube in correct relationship to each other.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5684&stc=1
The tilt head with the steering shaft mocked up to get the final length of the steering shaft and bearing spacer position determined.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5685&stc=1
Mocked up for length I will need to shorten the shaft about an inch.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5687&stc=1
Here is the shaft with the bearing spacer tacked in place, shortened to length, and dimples drilled for the universal joint.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5688&stc=1
This is universal for the tilt head. It comes apart easily with the shafts at 90 degrees to each other. Figured I may as well clean it up and regrease it while it was out of the column.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5689&stc=1
The tilt head and steering shaft back in place. The tilt head just has to press fit pins that hold it to the base. The steering shaft is held to the tilt head with ball bearings and a lock nut with very fine threads.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5690&stc=1 http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5691&stc=1
To pull the turn signal switch wiring through the column I first fed a single 12 gauge wire through, then used a butt connecter to hook that and 2 of the turn signal switch wires together. With a bit of tape over the wire ends and baby powder on the wires it pulled through without to much trouble.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5692&stc=1
Installing the tilt head cover (it's a press/hammer on fit) messed up the paint on the edge so I had to sand it out and reprime the edge.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5693&stc=1 http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5694&stc=1
The rest of the column sanded out and ready for final coats of paint.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5695&stc=1 http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5696&stc=1
Final coats applied tonight. I swept up good last night so the dust would settle, then wetted the floor down a little tonight before spraying. Not bad for 25 plus year old paint and a shop that's not very clean to say the least. Should be ready to go in the car by Saturday!! :D
Brian

[Custer55]

"The Chevy van column flares out slighty at the bottom so it about .040 smaller than the Jeep column"

I meant to say "larger than the Jeep column"
Duh!!
Brian

[chevynut]

Great write-up on that column modification. I just bought one from Flaming River. :) :)

[WagonCrazy]

Keep the progress and pics coming Custer...
Great to see someone actually DOING SOMETHING on their tri5 build...

[Custer55]

Keep the progress and pics coming Custer...
Great to see someone actually DOING SOMETHING on their tri5 build...
Thanks Paul. I gotta keep working on it, Back To The 50's is the 3rd weekend in June and I sure don't want to be there without a running and driving car!!
A little more progress this weekend. With the paint dry enough from Thursday night time to get the column ready to go in the car.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5700&stc=1
This shows the lower bearing retainer and clip repainted. I used Plastikote Chrome paint on them. It doesn't look like chrome but is does have a nice bright silver finish.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5701&stc=1
This one shows the original 55 Chevy column with the re-done Van column behind it. I had to extend the wires a few inches to reach the 55 Chevy harness, which was ok since the color coding is different. The Classic Chevy article came in handy for this as it had a chart to sort that out.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5702&stc=1
Another issue was the turn signal lever. The Van Lever on the left compared to the 55 Chevy lever on the right. The 55 lever would fit in the turn signal switch with minor grinding the base but didn't line up with the hole in the tilt head cover, or was angled away from you if you put it in so it lined up with the hole.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5703&stc=1
With some careful bending it the base where it mounts into the turn signal switch matches the van lever. Hopefully the Chrome wont crack off. If it does I'll probably just make a new one from some stainless steel 1/4" rod.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5704&stc=1
Now it clears everything good.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5705&stc=1
The next issue was the horn button/ring connection to the steering wheel. I already cut this off but it is what you have with the original column. A spring loaded plunger that mounted in the steering wheel (Or the adapter for in my case for my Grant wheel) and contacted a metal ring in the column.
The van column has a plastic piece with plunger going up into the steering wheel and the metal ring on the bottom side that contacts another plunger in the turn signal switch. This piece also incorporates the turn signal canceling function.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5706&stc=1
This shows the van horn ring plunger coming out of the steering wheel adapter.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5707&stc=1
Here is the part of the plunger I will still be using. The 2 pieces just snap together. I took them apart to make it easier to shorten it to the right length.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5708&stc=1
You can see here it just needs to be shortened bit more so it sits flush with the face of the steering wheel adapter.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5709&stc=1
Shortened to the right length with the steering wheel upper adapter (Grant GT wheel) holding it in place. It's a little tricky to get it in place as the spring loaded plunger wants to pop it out of the adpapter. A put a little bit of silicone on it to hopefully hold it in once I finish the steering wheel installation. The wire connects to the Grant horn button with a second wire from the button just going to ground under a bolt on the adapter hub.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5710&stc=1
Here is the column in the car. Looks like it could have been an option in 55. :cool:
The tilt lever is kinda ugly and rusty but I think I have an old 55 Chevy turn signal lever I can use to replace it. I will just need to shorten it and cut some 1/4" fine thread on the end. It just screws into the column tilt head. (or make a new one from 1/4" stainless rod)

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5711&stc=1
Next is the lower column mount with the opening filed and sanded out big enough to go over the lower end of the van column. Since the van column is slightly larger on the end I wanted to be able to slip it over without scratching the paint. I will have to see if I can find some thin rubber (gasket material maybe) to go between the mount and the column to fill the gap since it is a bigger opening now to fit over the end.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5712&stc=1
Parts blasted ready for painting. I am planning to use Aluminum colored engine paint with a clear coat. I think this will go better with the eventual frame color and aluminum Corvette parts. I haven't decided on the frame color yet but probably some shade of gray.
Brian

[Custer55]

I finished up on the steering column installation this week.
http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5733&stc=1
I found some rubber gasket material at the local hardware store to go between the lower column clamp and column. The thinnest they had was 1/6" thick so I had to file the hole in the clamp a little bigger to fit over the rubber. Luckily I had my original column to test fit everything to the right size.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5734&stc=1
Clamp painted (Aluminum color engine paint with clear engine paint finish) installed and lower bearing retainer in place.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5735&stc=1
When I installed the steering wheel adapter hub cover etc. and tightened everything down to the shaft the hub cover was to tight to the tilt head on the column. So I had to make a 1/16" thick spacer to get better clearance.
http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5736&stc=1
Here is a shot that shows the thickness of the spacer. I just traced the holes off the hub cover, drilled 1/4" hole in the center and the hub bolt holes, 5/16" for the horn wire then used a 3" hole saw to cut the spacer out of the sheet. Then drilled the center out to 3/4" plus for the steering shaft. I had to grind it slightly smaller to fit inside the hub cover.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5737&stc=1
Spacer in place over the hub. I put a few dabs of silicone on the spacer before installing the cover to hold them together to make things easier down the road.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5738&stc=1
With the hub cover in place the clearance looks good. I was just touching in a couple of spots without the spacer.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5739&stc=1 http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5740&stc=1
Finished column with the steering wheel in place. My son has plans drawn up for a single piece billet aluminum adapter to replace the 3 pieces that came with the Grant steering wheel once he gets all his required projects done and has machine time available. That should make it look even nicer!!

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5741&stc=1
Today I started on getting the power steering pump mounted. I used the factory mount to get it in the ball park (it lines up well with the pulleys in this position) I will use the front engine mount holes for the lower pivot brackets. I looked at mount brackets for sale online and found one that looked like it would work well and should be easy enough to make my own. I will need a power steering pump with 2 stud holes on the back of the reservoir to make this style bracket work. With some online research I found the one I will need, it was used on just about all GM vehicles from 1975 to 1978 (I searched for Camaro pumps on Rock Auto). Some have 1 stud and some have 2 in this year range though. Advance Auto the part number is 20-6800 (Cardone One Part). Auto Zone the part number is 6012.


http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5742&stc=1
2 of the parts cut and ground to size ready to drill the mount holes.
It will sure be nice to have power steering!!! Not fun in tight spaces and the small Grant wheel without it.
Brian

[chevynut]

Looks good to me. Seems like every little part needed modification.

Does your damper clear your power steering line fittings? Do you plan to rotate the cylinder? I have a rebuilt rack and I've been trying to clock the cylinder to move the fittings, but can't get it to turn for some reason. I did it on a junk rack but I wonder if they expoxied this one or something like that.

[Custer55]

Looks good to me. Seems like every little part needed modification.

Does your damper clear your power steering line fittings? Do you plan to rotate the cylinder? I have a rebuilt rack and I've been trying to clock the cylinder to move the fittings, but can't get it to turn for some reason. I did it on a junk rack but I wonder if they expoxied this one or something like that.

Thanks, It's all those little details that take so much time!!! ;) I didn't re-clock the rack, just re-bent one of the lines a little bit. I just have the pulley hub on the crank on mine (283 from a 62 Chevy) so there is a lot more room than there would be with a harmonic balancer. If I change to a later model small block I will have to do that though.
Brian

[Custer55]

Work continued this week on the power steering pump mounts.
I had a bit of a setback as I was using a pump with 1 stud in the back to mock things up when luckily I noticed the 3rd old pump I had was one with 2 studs in the back. So after taking the pulley off that one and cleaning is up I noticed a problem.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5759&stc=1 http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5763&stc=1
As you can see the pumps are clocked differently in the reservoir. The 2 stud model is on the left. So the first set of brackets I made were not going to work, at least not very well.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5760&stc=1
Here is the difference in the lower bracket designs. The bottom one is the 2 stud model.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5761&stc=1
At least I could still use the same spacers. I made them from 5/8" Dom tubing with a 1/4" ID. I just drilled it out to 3/8" for the mount bolts. (I had the 1/4" ID on hand that I bought for threading out for 3/8" rod ends)

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5762&stc=1
Pump mounted with the new lower brackets. Much better!!

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5764&stc=1
Here is my pattern for the adjustment bracket. The adjustment slot uses the boss on the long style water pump.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5765&stc=1
The upper ear on the right will be for a belt tension adjustment rod using RH and LH rod ends.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5766&stc=1
Bracket cut, ground and filed from 1/8" plate. I left it a little big in the adjustment slot area for now.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5767&stc=1
The bracket needed a 7/16" jog in it to line up with the water pump boss so I set this up to do that. Just a flat piece of 3/8" flat clamped in the vice with 7/16" of spacer clamped to that.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5768&stc=1
I bent a 90 in the bracket so it could be clamped down to the flat next to the spacers.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5769&stc=1
Clamped in place with the tab bent down to form the jog. I used the gas welding torch and put heat right at or below the bend to keep a nice tight bend.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5770&stc=1
Now it lines right up to the water pump boss.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5771&stc=1
2 of the mount holes on the front of the pump are at a different level so one of the holes in my bracket needed a spacer. I just took one off the old factory brackets which had a built in shoulder in it. So I drilled out my bracket to tack weld it on. Well that didn't work because it was so saturated with oil and PS fluid you couldn't get a weld to stick to it. So I ended up brazing it in place which will be fine as its just a spacer and just needs to stay on the bracket for ease of assembly.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5772&stc=1
To accurately located the adjustment slot in the bracket I made a pointer out of 3/8" rod that just stuck out past the water pump boss with the other end of against the engine block. Then I just moved the pump through it's adjustment range to scribe a line on the bracket.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5773&stc=1
Hard to see but there is a scribe line on the bracket to locate the slot.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5774&stc=1
Holes drilled along the line and cut out between the holes. Just need to do some filing to finish it up.
http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5775&stc=1
Finished slot lines right up with the water pump boss.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5776&stc=1
Finished bracket with the excess ground away from the slot tab and media blasted ready for paint.
Next I need to make a small bracket to go under the water pump bolts to hold the other end of the belt tension adjuster. Then figure out the power steering pump hoses. Of course this created another project of moving the alternator because I think the power steering pump pulley will be in the way for where my alternator belt runs now.
Brian

[Custer55]

This week I finished up the power steering pump mounts and started on brackets to move the alternator to the passenger side. I needed to move the alternator because the power steering pump pulley will end up in the way of the alternator belt where it is at now. I could have just moved the alternator in closer to the engine centerline but my heads don't have the accessory bolt holes so it was easier to just move it to the passenger side where I could use the long water pump mount holes.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5777&stc=1
This is the bracket I made to go under the water pump bolts for the belt tension adjuster rod.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5778&stc=1
Here is the bracket mounted with the water pump bolts. I will make a longer adjuster tube once I get a proper length belt and a left hand thread rod end.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5779&stc=1
This is a stock passenger side alternator bracket I took off a 305 small block Chevy. I won't be able to use this one as it positions the alternator to run off the 3rd crank pulley and I will be using the 2nd crank pulley, but it gets me the position I need to make a rear bracket to bolt to the water pump bolts. This bracket lines up with the accessory bolt hole in the head that I don't have in mine but by using this layout my brackets will work with heads that have the accessory bolt holes.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5780&stc=1
Here is the rear bracket I made from 3/16" plate (same as the stock bracket in front of it) bolted in at the water pump bolts.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5781&stc=1
Here is my bracket compared to the stock one on the right. The stock one jogs forward 3/16", mine jogs backward 7/16" to move the alternator back 5/8". (distance between the pulley groves) The hole in the bracket between the to mount holes is to allow access with a 9/16" socket to the water pump bolt.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5782&stc=1
Here I have an old alternator in place on the new passenger side brackets with the good alternator in position mounted off the header bracket. The water pump pulley is off of the same 305 as the alternator bracket. This style bracket requires a max water pump pulley dia. of 6 1/4".

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5783&stc=1
Here I have an old V-belt cut to the length I should need and put back together with shrink tubing, a metal strap and a couple of sheet metal screws. This way I have a belt I can take to the parts store to get one as close as possible to what I will need.
I also mocked up a belt tension adjuster similar to the power steering pump. Once I have a belt and another left hand thread rod end, and left hand thread tap, I can get that set up.
Brian

[chevynut]

Nice work as always ;). Not many guys build their own accessory brackets but it's nice to see someone diving in and figuring it out. How are you cutting out your brackets? If you have a local waterjet or laser and know how to do simple CAD work, you could have a part like that cut for under $5. Even with forming on a press brake it would be less than $10. I know it's fun to make this stuff yourself but it's just another way to do it.

[NickP]

This week I finished up the power steering pump mounts and started on brackets to move the alternator to the passenger side. I needed to move the alternator because the power steering pump pulley will end up in the way of the alternator belt where it is at now. I could have just moved the alternator in closer to the engine centerline but my heads don't have the accessory bolt holes so it was easier to just move it to the passenger side where I could use the long water pump mount holes.


This is the bracket I made to go under the water pump bolts for the belt tension adjuster rod.


Here is the bracket mounted with the water pump bolts. I will make a longer adjuster tube once I get a proper length belt and a left hand thread rod end.


This is a stock passenger side alternator bracket I took off a 305 small block Chevy. I won't be able to use this one as it positions the alternator to run off the 3rd crank pulley and I will be using the 2nd crank pulley, but it gets me the position I need to make a rear bracket to bolt to the water pump bolts. This bracket lines up with the accessory bolt hole in the head that I don't have in mine but by using this layout my brackets will work with heads that have the accessory bolt holes.


Here is the rear bracket I made from 3/16" plate (same as the stock bracket in front of it) bolted in at the water pump bolts.


Here is my bracket compared to the stock one on the right. The stock one jogs forward 3/16", mine jogs backward 7/16" to move the alternator back 5/8". (distance between the pulley groves) The hole in the bracket between the to mount holes is to allow access with a 9/16" socket to the water pump bolt.


Here I have an old alternator in place on the new passenger side brackets with the good alternator in position mounted off the header bracket. The water pump pulley is off of the same 305 as the alternator bracket. This style bracket requires a max water pump pulley dia. of 6 1/4".


Here I have an old V-belt cut to the length I should need and put back together with shrink tubing, a metal strap and a couple of sheet metal screws. This way I have a belt I can take to the parts store to get one as close as possible to what I will need.
I also mocked up a belt tension adjuster similar to the power steering pump. Once I have a belt and another left hand thread rod end, and left hand thread tap, I can get that set up.
Brian

One assumes that the mock up parts imitate their replacement in all ways dimensional. Very nice work.

[Custer55]

Nice work as always ;). Not many guys build their own accessory brackets but it's nice to see someone diving in and figuring it out. How are you cutting out your brackets? If you have a local waterjet or laser and know how to do simple CAD work, you could have a part like that cut for under $5. Even with forming on a press brake it would be less than $10. I know it's fun to make this stuff yourself but it's just another way to do it.

C-Nut, I just saw your post tonight, I wasn't ignoring you.
I have been making my parts by cutting them out with a plasma cutter first, I can get them pretty close on the straight sections and in the ball park on the curves. Then I use a 4 1/2" grinder with a 40 grit flap disk and finish them up with my 1" by 30" belt sander and hand files. I would definitely look into the laser or water jet cut parts if I needed to make a bunch of parts or was trying to make a living doing this stuff. In that case it wouldn't make any sense to do it the way I am because the labor cost would kill you.
Brian

[chevynut]

I have been making my parts by cutting them out with a plasma cutter first, I can get them pretty close on the straight sections and in the ball park on the curves. Then I use a 4 1/2" grinder with a 40 grit flap disk and finish them up with my 1" by 30" belt sander and hand files. I would definitely look into the laser or water jet cut parts if I needed to make a bunch of parts or was trying to make a living doing this stuff. In that case it wouldn't make any sense to do it the way I am because the labor cost would kill you.
Brian

I know exactly what you're saying. A few years ago my son and I (along with others) spent weeks making parts for 8-10 frames at a time. Believe it or not, there are around 77 individual pieces needed to do one of our typical conversions (some around 100 or more) that need to be cut, drilled, etc. We would cut our brackets out of flat plate or tubing by using a pattern and plasma cutter and sanding them. It was a mess and took a lot of work. Just today I received over 300 pieces of flat parts from my CNC laser supplier. I can't imagine how long it would have taken me to layout drill, plasma cut, and grind/sand all those parts. I don't make anything myself anymore because my time is worth more than what I save by doing it myself. Not only that, but the consistency can't be matched. ;)

This time I threw in some double shear upper shock mount plates, a few custom parts for my Nomad, and a couple of experimental part in the batch. ;)

[Custer55]

I received the new high flow water pump from Summit Racing on Tuesday night and noticed a problem when bolting everything up before painting all the brackets.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5795&stc=1
As you can see the top accessory bracket bolt hole is not drilled and tapped in the center of the boss so when I bolted up my bracket it didn't line up with the rear bracket.
Other than this problem the pump looks great and is much lighter weight. If I think of it I will weigh them all (cast iron short pump, cast iron long pump, and aluminum long pump) and post the results.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5796&stc=1
Here you can see how far off the hole is. I put a bolt through the front bracket to the rear and used a jam nut at the back bracket so every thing is lined up right at that point. The bottom bolt boss was slightly off to but just needed to be filed out a bit. I just scribed lines on the bracket where the top hole needed to be. Luckily I had left enough meat on that end of the bracket for the access hole for the water pump bolt.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5797&stc=1
Back side of the bracket with the hole welded back shut and filed smooth.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5798&stc=1
Front side welded shut and ground down just enough to re drill the hole but not so much as to lose the scribed lines.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5799&stc=1
Hole re-drilled so it lines up good now. It still looks off but I think it's just the angle I was at to take the picture. Lesson learned here I guess is to use the parts you will be using in the end to mock things up whenever possible.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5800&stc=1
I bolted a fender on Wednesday night to see how things are going to fit. Tire clearance looks like it will be fine at the wheel opening with these tires and wheels. It's looks a little tight to the inner fender at full lock in both directions but should be ok too. The car is on jack stands but I have a strut in place of the shock holding the wheel at what should be ride height. The wheel is a 16 x 8 with a 6 3/4" back spacing with 245 50 16 tire. (from my 95 Trans Am)

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5801&stc=1
Looks like I may have to some minor trimming on the inner fender but not to bad. Probably less than I expected.:)

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5802&stc=1
Alternator and PS pump brackets painted up, ready to go.
14 weeks until back to the 50's so I'll have to keep at it!!!!!!!
Brian

[Custer55]

A couple of projects this week. The first was to reverse the radiator support to mount the radiator in the 6 cylinder position. The second was to make a bracket and lever for the parking brake so I can use the original lever and cable for the front part of the system and connect sheathed cables from there back to the rear brake calipers.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5819&stc=1 http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5820&stc=1
To reverse the support I just unbolted the top bar from the lower section (they were bolted together because I had combined the best parts from 2 different supports when I originally built the car in the 80's). I then removed the V8 lower baffle, drilled holes on the opposite side for the filler panels & horns, and welded in square nuts to the new mount holes. Then all I had to do was bolt it back together with the radiator mount flanges pointing forward.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5821&stc=1 http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5822&stc=1
Here is the support back on the car with the radiator mounted. I just made flat extention plates from 1/8" aluminum to bridge the gap between the core support flange and the radiator mount flange. You could also unsolder the radiator mount from the radiator, flip it around and re-solder it on, but I didn't want to mess with that because of the built in trans cooler. I actually did this once to turn a 6 cylinder radiator into a 8 cylinder radiator because it didn't have a built in trans cooler.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5823&stc=1
Next up was to make a new bracket and lever system to connect to the original e-brake cable and pulley system. It had to be moved since it won't work in the original position with the new frame center section/trans cross member I added to the frame. Here is the the new bracket and lever next to the original lever. I made a channel and a jog in the bracket to clear the clevises that will connect to the front and rear cables.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5824&stc=1
So the lever can pivot freely I made a spacer from 1/2" od, 3/8" id tubing.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5825&stc=1
I made a new clevis that is shorter and more compact to gain clearance and better cable adjustment (due to new mount position) than the original on the right. I welded the nut to the inside along with drilling and tapping the end since it is to narrow to insert a nut on the back side like the original.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5826&stc=1

Here is the finished bracket and lever with access and lightening holes ready to tack weld in place. I welded on a small tab for the return spring on the lever. The hole closest to the pivot bolt is the attachment point for the cables to the rear brakes. I will most likely use Lokar cables like C-Nut and Wagon Crazy did for those.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5827&stc=1 http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5828&stc=1
Here is the bracket and lever tack welded in place. It is positioned on the left hand side just behind the drivers seat, between the outer frame rail and frame center section. It will also tie into the inner body mount at that point. Everything just clears the floor pan and body brace but I may need to make a small notch at the top of the center section bulkhead for the clevis that attaches to the original e-brake cable. I will need to add a small bracket just in front of the next inner body mount back for the other end of the return spring. I just clamped a piece in for now to check clearance and function of the spring. Everything seemed to be working fine and clearance to the exhaust is good for up to a 3 1/2" exhaust going straight through the cut outs. I'll be using 2 1/4" to 2 1/2".
I will weld it all up solid and add the rear cables and a mount bracket for the rear cables once the body is back off the frame again, which should be soon.
Brian :)

[Custer55]

Here is a few shots of this weekends progress.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5840&stc=1
Had to do some minor trimming on the lower part of the inner fenders and the A-arm area.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5841&stc=1
Front fenders back on to check clearances. I'll probably do a bit more trimming on the inner fenders before they get re-painted but there pretty close to where they need to be.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5842&stc=1 http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5843&stc=1 http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5844&stc=1 http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5845&stc=1
Here it is at what should be final ride height. (I have solid struts in place of the shocks and springs for now) I think it will sit a bit higher in the back in the end but the front should end up pretty close to this. When I set the car on blocks before I started this project I was shooting for 3 3/4" to the frame rails at the front just behind the kick up and that's right where it is right now. Tire clearance in the front looks to be good (245 tires on 16 x 8 wheels). I just have a few more things to do before lifting the body back off to finish up the frame. Just need to weld up some brackets and stuff that was a pain to get to when I had it on the frame table, Sand blast the whole thing and get primer and paint on it. Nothing fancy for now because I want to drive it for a year or so to make sure everything works right before putting a good paint job on it. The whole car is due for a repaint anyway as it's been about 27 years since I painted it the first time. Then it will be on to brake lines, fuel line, brakes, shocks, springs, etc.
Cool to see it on the ground for a few days right now though.
Brian :cool:

[Custer55]

One last project before taking the body back off the frame was modifying the fan shroud to work with the radiator in the 6 cylinder position.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5864&stc=1
I trimmed off the mounting tabs so it will clear the repositioned engine (3/4" forward and higher to clear the steering rack) and long water pump set up. A combination of cutting and melting with the cut off wheel on whatever plastic this thing is made of. :eek:

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5865&stc=1
I made some tabs out of aluminum to clamp it in the approximate position it will be. It's about as close to the engine as it can be and still clear the power steering pump.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5866&stc=1
Looking from the front of the car. I will need to make a couple of angle brackets from aluminum to mount the shroud to the core support on the engine side. The original core support bolt holes will come in handy for this. Also I will make a couple of filler panels from aluminum sheet for the top and bottom of the shroud. I plan to use 3/16" pop rivets to attach the aluminum pieces to the plastic shroud. I'll do all this once the core is back off the car as I will need to trim the lip off of the core support for the angle mount brackets.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5867&stc=1
We are backed into the body lift ready to bolt the lift arms back on. With the body back off and the frame rolled out I will have whole new list of projects to complete!!!
Brian :)

[chevynut]

You're really making progress Brian! Looks like you'll be driving it before long. ;)

[Custer55]

You're really making progress Brian! Looks like you'll be driving it before long. ;)

Thanks, Less than 12 weeks to "Back to the 50's weekend" That's my drop dead goal to have it back on the road!!!

[WagonCrazy]

It's lookin' good Custer. Stay with it.

[Custer55]

Thanks Paul, How's your project coming?
Brian

[WagonCrazy]

A R D U O U S L Y S L O W.........

[Custer55]

This past week was mostly spent on the getting the parking brake system finished and getting the driveshaft shortened. I got the body back off the frame so I could get at things easier.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5906&stc=1
Here is the parking brake lever from the top side.
http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5907&stc=1
I welded a small tab to the frame for the return spring.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5908&stc=1
The clevis that hooks up to the original parking brake cable just hit the front center section bulkhead so I had to put a small notch in it. If I had to do it over again I would have just moved the bulkhead an inch or so forward and there wouldn't have been an issue.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5909&stc=1
Filler piece fitted up ready to weld in.

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Filler piece welded in. Everything will clear good now.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5911&stc=1
I have the bracket I made for the rear cables clamped to the frame to get the cables routed and cut to length.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5912&stc=1
The drivers side cable in place. Just going outside the frame then up and over between the frame and body.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5913&stc=1
View from the top side.
http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5914&stc=1
Passenger side cable will come up and over the frame in similar manner and over to the drivers side. I'll hook it up the body with a couple of clips once that is back on. I left both cables a bit longer than I thought they would need to be, as I can always shorten them up later. I will probably drop the body back on to make sure everything is going to clear and function properly. You can see the driveshaft in place in this shot. It was a pleasant surprise to me that the Corvette rear end takes the same universal joint as a 55 Chevy (1310 series with outside clips) so all I had to do is have my original drive shaft shortened 1 3/4".

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5915&stc=1
To finish up the parking brakes I need to make a 2nd clevis to hook the cables to the caliper. The first step for that was to bend a piece of 11 gauge (5/8" wide by about 5" long) into a u shape. to get the right inside dimension I bent it around a 3/8" thick piece of flat steel.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5916&stc=1
To get the finished shape I inserted a spacer (3/4" by 5/16" thick) and closed up the end in the vise.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5917&stc=1
Then I welded the edges to keep the end closed up. Just need to drill a hole in the end for the cable, and the rectangular hole for the parking brake lever and grind it down to final shape. That's as far as I got today. Next up will be the exhaust system. I pulled everything off my old frame today so I can start cutting that up and figure out how much of it I can re-use.
Brian

[55 Rescue Dog]

I love how you are putting all the pieces together, but from your pictures, my only suggestion is that you take a good look at ridged front diff mount. Something needs a little give at that point. A torque arm set-up might be one thought.

[chevynut]

I love how you are putting all the pieces together, but from your pictures, my only suggestion is that you take a good look at ridged front diff mount. Something needs a little give at that point. A torque arm set-up might be one thought.

Nothing needs to "give" at that point, and it's better if it doesn't to maintain proper u-joint angles. The only issue with a solid mount is that it will transmit vibrations to the frame. That's why I use a urethane bushing there. A torque arm doesn't do anything different than the mount to the shock crossmember, except the load on it is lower. Both configurations prevent the differential from rotating.

[55 Rescue Dog]

Nothing needs to "give" at that point, and it's better if it doesn't to maintain proper u-joint angles. The only issue with a solid mount is that it will transmit vibrations to the frame. That's why I use a urethane bushing there. A torque arm doesn't do anything different than the mount to the shock crossmember, except the load on it is lower. Both configurations prevent the differential from rotating.
Solid bushings on the ends of the batwings would also be needed with a solid differential mount, to avoid cracking the housing. And, I don't know if any frame flex would also need to be considered with solid mounts.

[Custer55]

I do plan to put a 1/8" to 1/4" rubber gasket/spacer in place of the aluminum spacer I used for mock up. I just haven't gotten around to doing it yet.
Thanks, Brian

[Custer55]

I finished up the 2nd clevis for the parking brake lever, and got a start on the exhaust system.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5928&stc=1
After scribing the rectangular hole location I drilled a 1/4" hole in the middle of it.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5929&stc=1
Corners filed out to the lines.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5930&stc=1
Bevel added to the end of the opening. I had to add this as it won't go over the parking brake arm without it due to the thickness of the clevis.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5931&stc=1
Finished clevis ground down a bit narrower on the cable end for better clearance. I shortened the spring that came with the Lokar cable kit a couple inches so it just has a little tension when installed.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5932&stc=1
My next project is the exhaust system. I made this spacer ring out of 1/8" aluminum to keep things reasonably centered in the exhaust cut outs. I just used hole saws to make the spacer ring (2 1/4" for the inside hole to match my pipes, and a 4" for the outside then ground down to fit into the cut outs.)

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5933&stc=1
Spacer in place to center the exhaust tubing in the cut out.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5934&stc=1
Getting the mufflers mocked up in position.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5935&stc=1
I am using as much of my old system as possible. The first section off the header I had to redo a bit to make it line up with the forward center section exhaust cut out hole. When I originally did the exhaust it had to go under the rear engine mounts to the bellhousing.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5936&stc=1
Jog over from the first bulk head to the 2nd and 3rd bulk head tacked up. I finished up welding these joints and got one of the hangers set up today but I didn't get any pictures of it yet. Next will be the tail pipe from the muffler back.
Brian

[chevynut]

Good idea on those spacers for the clearance tubes. That would really help when trying to center the pipes. Have you tested the e-brake to make sure you're getting enough throw? I imagine the calipers don't need much movement to lock. Are you using the stock e-brake handle inside the car? Looks like it's coming together nicely.

By the way, you do know that the e-brake lever pivot is a single shear design and they don't work that way due to the bending stresses on the bolt and what about the shock loads on that pivot and the fatigue of the clevises with repeated use? :D

[Custer55]

Good idea on those spacers for the clearance tubes. That would really help when trying to center the pipes. Have you tested the e-brake to make sure you're getting enough throw? I imagine the calipers don't need much movement to lock. Are you using the stock e-brake handle inside the car? Looks like it's coming together nicely.

By the way, you do know that the e-brake lever pivot is a single shear design and they don't work that way due to the bending stresses on the bolt and what about the shock loads on that pivot and the fatigue of the clevises with repeated use? :D

Yeah there is plenty of throw on the e-brake lever system. It doesn't have to move very far to engage the pads to the rotor. I probably wouldn't have needed the notch in the cross member.

I might have to cut some holes in the floor boards so just in case I need to use the "Fred Flintsone" brakes. :D

[Custer55]

Work continued on the exhaust system this week. I didn't get anything done this weekend as my wife had a fall early Saturday morning and broke her elbow in 2 places :cry: so the whole weekend was spent at the hospital. 3 hours of surgery, 7 screws and a plate to put it back together.
Anyway here is what I got done before Saturday morning.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5967&stc=1
Here is the first hanger on the drivers side. I am using exhaust hangers meant to be used with a muffler clamp and modifying them to just bolt to a tab welded to the exhaust pipe.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5968&stc=1
From the muffler looking back, pipe routed under the rear end.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5969&stc=1
From the back of the car pipe routed up and over to the pipe running under the frame rail to the back of the car.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5970&stc=1
Top view shows the clearance to the toe rod.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5971&stc=1
The new drivers side pipe at the bottom compared to the old passenger side pipe that went up and over the original rear end. I ended up adding a 2" straight piece under the rear end and shortening the end that attaches to the muffler to get better clearance at the front side where the pipe goes under rear end, and better ground clearance for the pipes under the rear end. I should have 5" or so at final ride height. At stock ride height the bottom of the rear end housing is 8 1/4" off the ground. Most of the pipes are just tacked together at this point to make it easier to take measurements to copy it for the passenger side.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5972&stc=1
This is from the muffler looking back with the 2" straight pipe added under the rear end.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5973&stc=1
This picture isn't very good but is has a good view of the notch I made in the frame for toe rod clearance.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5974&stc=1
Just got started on the passenger side on Thursday night before it got to late. Hopefully I will get some time to work on it this week and wrap up the exhaust system by next weekend.
Brian

[Custer55]

I finished up the exhaust system about the middle of last week. Been working pretty late most nights as I don't get out in the shop until later at night since my wife's surgery for her broken elbow.
I had the body back on the frame to check clearances on the e-brake cables, etc. and add a couple of hangers at the back end of the mufflers that will attach to the body under the rear seat. I will need to lower the bracket that holds the end of the Lokar e-brake cables about an 1/8" to 1/4" as the clearance is pretty tight right in that spot. Unfortunately it is right in the spot where the rear floor pan is at its lowest point. I also added a couple of nutserts under the rear seat in the driveshaft tunnel area to mount the passenger side e-brake cable up to the floor pan so it clears the drive shaft.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5984&stc=1
Working on the passenger side exhaust pipe. first section done lined up through the cut out.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5985&stc=1
Jog over mocked up. The masking tape works pretty well to hold things is place to tack things up.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5986&stc=1
All finished back to the muffler.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5987&stc=1
I used a pipe clamp and some welding wire to hold the muffler in position.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5988&stc=1
Passenger side tail pipe mocked up.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5989&stc=1 http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5990&stc=1
I made a hanger for the tail pipes that bolts to the toe rod mount.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5991&stc=1
All welded up and ground out and back on the ground. The tail pipes are 4 1/2" off the ground where the frame sits now, but I think It will sit a 1/2" or so higher when it's all done so clearance should be fine.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5992&stc=1
Ready to roll back under the body.
With the body back the back on I also mounted my new Wilwood master cylinder and proportioning combo valve and line kit so I would know approximately where the rear brake line would need to end up. I bought the kit through Jet.com. You can get good deals there but you have to make sure you know the part numbers for the parts you need before searching their website. Your first order you get 15% off and I recently got an offer for 15% off my next 3 orders. This saved my about $50. on the master cylinder kit. I did have a small problem with the Wilwood kit though. They supply 2-3/16" spacers to go between the master cylinder and the bracket for the combo valve which works fine if your master cylinder mounting studs are long enough. Mine were not, the nuts were only about half way or less on the threads so I had to modify the bracket to eliminate the spacers. This was just a matter of moving the holes 3/16" but then the one hole ended up to close to the end of the bracket so I had to build up some weld on the end of the bracket, weld the original holes up, grind it all smooth and redrill the holes so I didn't need the spacers. Sorry I didn't get any pictures of the whole process. The bracket hole location is critical so the supplied brake lines connect properly between the master cylinder and combo valve. You would think Wilwood would redesign either the lines or the bracket to eliminate the need for the spacers.
Anyway today I got the body back off the frame and started disassembling the frame to finish welding some odds and ends that I couldn't get at on the frame table or on the ground. Then I will need to get some paint on it (nothing fancy right now as my deadline to be on the road is fast approaching), run the fuel line and brake lines, and then start putting it all back together to get it on the road.
Brian

[rockytopper R.I.P 5-13-2017]

Looking Good!!!!

[WagonCrazy]

Dang Brian, you're moving fast! Keep it up. Good work man! Really appreciate you posting all those pics. That's good sharing of knowledge...

[Custer55]

Thanks Rocky & Paul,
It doesn't feel like it's moving along very fast to me!! More like a snails pace. ;) I'm happy to share what I'm doing, I learn a lot from others posts too.
This past week I finished up a few details then got everything taken back apart to finished welding in a few places that were to hard to get at before.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6029&stc=1
Here is the Wilwood bracket (modified) and master bolted to the booster without the Wilwood supplied spacers. There is just enough thread without the spacers so there is no way I could use the spacers.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6030&stc=1
From this you can tell how the proportioning valve bracket has to be positioned just right for the supplied lines to work properly.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6031&stc=1
Since it will be nearly impossible to get the nuts on the bolts for the pinion support much less get a wrench on them with the body on I welded the nuts to a plate to make things much easier if I need to assembly/disassemble with the body mounted on the frame.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6032&stc=1
All bolted up with the nut plate. I made a thin rubber cushion from a couple layers of a printing press blanket. Two layers ends up being about 3/16" thick.
(I get the used ones free from work, there about 29" x 41" from our biggest press. They work great for catching oil leaks under the old cars too.)

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6033&stc=1
One of the last things to do was to add the tabs for the rear brake hoses. The hoses I am using are the stock replacements for a 90 Vette from Russell.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6034&stc=1
I positioned the tabs to allow easy brake line routing over the frame. The position will allow full up and down suspension travel also.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6035&stc=1
Here I have the frame mounted on my makeshift rotisserie. (It's a lot easier to weld on things when you can just spin it around to a better position!!) All taken apart with the Corvette front K-member removed. One of my saw horses for the rotisserie stand is kind of sketchy so I hooked it up to my engine hoist also just to be safe. I finished up all the welding I needed to finish up on today so it's ready to prep for paint. I am just going to sand and wire wheel it for now. The frame had already been sandblasted when I bought it so there was no heavy rust on it, just some light surface rust in a couple of spots. I painted the whole thing with Eastwood rust encapsulater when I first bought the frame so it should hold up for a couple of years without sandblasting the whole thing again.
I'd prefer to sandblast it again but I don't have any good place to do it right now.
Once I get a half-way decent paint job on it the re-assembly can begin. :D
Brian.

[DannyP]

what are you doing for rear spring stock or coilovers

[Custer55]

I plan to use the stock springs front & rear since the weight of my 55 (pre C4 setup) and our 90 Corvette are so close.

[chevynut]

I plan to use the stock springs front & rear since the weight of my 55 (pre C4 setup) and our 90 Corvette are so close.

It's not just about weight, but about weight distribution. The Corvette engine sits several inches further back than the engine in the tri5 and the wheelbase is shorter. The stock C4 rear spring isn't a bad choice and it allows fairly easy height adjustment by tightening or loosening the nut on the long spring bolt. But your choice of spring rates is limited. Early and late C4 rear springs will interchange.

The front is where it becomes a bit more difficult to use the stock C4 spring. The early and late springs don't interchange so your choice of spring rates is again fairly limited. And the bigger issue is that if the car doesn't sit at the ride height you want, you have to remove the spring and add or remove shims between the spring and k-member. There's only so much room to do that. Coilovers allow easy ride height and spring rate adjustment, to a point. You just turn the nut up or down to get to designed ride height, or change the spring which isn't that hard to do.

[Custer55]

It's not just about weight, but about weight distribution. The Corvette engine sits several inches further back than the engine in the tri5 and the wheelbase is shorter. The stock C4 rear spring isn't a bad choice and it allows fairly easy height adjustment by tightening or loosening the nut on the long spring bolt. But your choice of spring rates is limited. Early and late C4 rear springs will interchange.

The front is where it becomes a bit more difficult to use the stock C4 spring. The early and late springs don't interchange so your choice of spring rates is again fairly limited. And the bigger issue is that if the car doesn't sit at the ride height you want, you have to remove the spring and add or remove shims between the spring and k-member. There's only so much room to do that. Coilovers allow easy ride height and spring rate adjustment, to a point. You just turn the nut up or down to get to designed ride height, or change the spring which isn't that hard to do.

The weight distribution is very close also, See my post from the Suspension geometry analysis below. So I think I'll be ok with the stock front spring. No doubt it would be a lot easier to adjust ride height with coil overs!! If I can't get it where I want with the stock spring I figure I can change out the stock spring for coil overs later.
Brian :)

"I found the book I wrote down the weights of Our 90 Corvette and my 55 Chevy.

For the Corvette the total weight was 3,413 lbs. minus my weight of 189 lbs. (there wasn't much room to get out of the car in the scale room, they weigh the race cars with the driver) for a total weight of 3,224 lbs. I can't say for sure how full the gas tank was but it was most likely at least a half to 3/4 tank.
Weight per wheel as follows: (this with my 189 lbs. in the car, obviously more left side weight added than right side)

left front - 919 lbs. right front - 856 lbs.

left rear - 865 lbs. right rear - 773 lbs.

This works out to a 52% / 48% front to rear weight distribution

For my 55 I was able to weigh it without being in the car, as a Tri 5 Chevy is much easier to get in and out of in tight quarters than a 90 Vette.
Again probably a 1/2 to 3/4 full gas tank.
Total weight was 3,410 lbs. This includes a couple of bag chairs and misc. stuff I keep in the trunk for car shows etc. Maybe an extra 20 to 30 lbs. at most.
Weight per wheel as follows:

left front - 890 lbs. right front - 878 lbs.

left rear - 805 lbs. right rear - 837 lbs.

This works out to a 51.8% / 48.2% front to rear weight distribution.

Nearly identical to our 90 Corvette. This is one of the reasons I decided to just use the stock Corvette springs and shocks.
It will be interesting to see where my 55 ends up weight wise with the new frame. I'm thinking it will be very close. The Corvette suspension parts should save 150 to 200 lbs. but I added the frame center section at about 70 lbs. or so, an extra cross member front and rear. a power steering pump, and the tilt steering column is heavier than the original. I have an aluminum water pump on order so that will save a couple of lbs. The engine is moved 3/4 forward, the radiator will be moved to the 6 cylinder position, and the gas tank is moved 3" backward. I am using the same engine and transmission though and probably the same radiator for now. I plan to upgrade to an aluminum cross flow when the budget permits."

[55 Rescue Dog]

If you can get the weight to match one of the stock springs, that would be ideal. Otherwise, the next best thing, would be if you needed a little more, just fine tune it with a light coil over spring, and let a majority of the weight ride on the traverse spring. That's the way I'm going to do it anyway. Could do the same thing in the rear.

[DannyP]

Can you please give the info on the master cylinder and booster [ part number, piston size ,booster size ]
I will be doing this front end change soon so I would like to start buying the extra stuff now

Thanks Danny P

[Custer55]

Can you please give the info on the master cylinder and booster [ part number, piston size ,booster size ]
I will be doing this front end change soon so I would like to start buying the extra stuff now

Thanks Danny P

Danny, I don't have any part numbers handy. The booster is a 7" single diaphragm. I bought it quite a few years ago from Auto City Glass at the Iola swap meet as part of a dropped spindle kit.
The Wilwood master cylinder is a 1" bore. What you want to use depends on the brake pedal ratio you have and the feel you want in your brakes. My pedal ratio is the stock ratio, I think 6. something to 1. which will require a lighter touch on the brakes with the 1" bore master. The stock Corvette master is 7/8" or 15/16" but they have a pedal ratio closer to 4 to 1. I think a bunch of this info was covered in a thread in the suspension, brakes, etc, forum.
Hope this helps.
Brian

[Custer55]

This week I worked on getting the frame painted so I can start putting things back together.
I just used spray bombs for the primer so I could just prime what I got sanded out each night.
Since I don't expect to have this paint job on the frame for more than a year or 2, I am using Rustoleum Rust Stop for the top coat. I got the paint for $6.99 a quart on sale. I made my own custom color by mixing Aluminum with Gloss Black in a 50/50 mix. I'd probably mix it with more black than aluminum if I did it again as it looked darker in the can than it does sprayed out.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6045&stc=1 http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6046&stc=1
Primed out ready for the top coat.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6047&stc=1 http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6048&stc=1
Top coat applied today. The biggest drawback to the Rustoleum is how long it take to dry, it's super slow and today's high of 44 degrees today didn't help. I did run the furnace in the shop to warm it up to about 60 inside before I started painting, but my only method of ventilation is to open the garage door, so it doesn't stay that warm when it's 44 or less outside. It does spray out pretty smooth though, but you have to be careful not to get runs with the slow dry time.

My side project of the week was the frame stud for the clutch cross shaft. I ordered one made by Danchuck from Summit Racing but they only had the 56 to 57 one. I was ordering some other parts from Summit anyway so I figured I would just have to modify it to save the shipping cost to buy the right one from elsewhere.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6049&stc=1
Turns out the 56 to 57 frame stud is an 1/8" bigger diameter and has a longer shank than the 55 frame stud. To turn it down to the right dia. for my 55, I chucked it into my poor man's lathe/drill press. I clamped a piece of stock in the drill press vice to use as a tool rest to file it down to the right dia. I used a coarse file first and just kept checking it with a caliper until it was close and finished up with a finer file.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6050&stc=1
To shorten up the shank I wrapped the stud threads with making tape so they wouldn't get damaged in the chuck. Then I set the tool rest so I could use the edge of a flat bastard file as a parting tool.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6052&stc=1
Then is was just a matte of moving the tool rest up to take down the rest of the shank to size. It took a couple of steps to get the whole thing down to size.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6053&stc=1
Here is the finished stud modified for use in a 55 Chevy. I tried to cut threads on the new shank but couldn't hold it tight enough without risking damage to the stud ball so I'll just have to use a few extra washers when I bolt it on. I should have cut down the shank first then cut new threads before turning down the stud but I didn't figure out the shank was to long until after I had the ball end finished.

Tomorrow I will be working on priming and painting the Corvette K-member, trans cross member and upper shock mounts so those can get bolted back in the frame. It's supposed to be 55 degrees so hopefully paint will dry a little faster.
Brian

[chevynut]

Nice progress....you'll be rolling soon. ;)

[Custer55]

The first half of this week was spent on painting, stating with the Corvette K-member then a bunch of small parts. Late in the week and over the weekend I started on putting everything back together.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6056&stc=1
Corvette K-member ready for primer. Next time I paint one of these I'll probably set up a mini rotisserie, It wasn't much fun to do it like this.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6057&stc=1
Primed, ready for the topcoat. Same as what I used on the rest of the frame.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6058&stc=1
Some of the small parts hung up to dry. I must have done about a dozen or so parts a night for 3 nights. I just worked on prepping parts until I would have time to prime and paint them the same night.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6059&stc=1
Finally going back together. I installed the front sway bar before the K-member and bolted the steering rack to the K-member before that went back in the frame. I didn't have to do it that way but it is a lot easier that way.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6060&stc=1
I cleaned the Corvette aluminum parts with Castrol Super Clean as I was installing them. It works good at cutting the dirt and grime and you just have to rinse it off with water. You can see the difference it makes on the spindles above.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6061&stc=1 http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6062&stc=1
Lower A-arms and front spring installed. The spring cleaned up really nice with the Super Clean also.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6063&stc=1
Compressing the spring with my homemade tool to get the upper A-arm connected to the spindle. I've used this tool many times on the stock coil spring set up also. Just a 1/2" eye bolt, 1/2" threaded rod and connector (basically just a long nut) and a lower mount from an old shock to bolt to the A-arm. The long end of the threaded rod goes up through the shock mount where you use a nut and washers, and tighten down on the nut to pull the lower a-arm up.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6064&stc=1 http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6065&stc=1
Here is where I left off tonight. Today I got the rear end cleaned up and installed, cleaned up the front calipers and put in new seals, (they seemed kind of stuck, but looked to be in great shape inside when I took them apart), cleaned and installed the rear calipers, (the pistons move easily in these so I am going to take a chance they are ok).
Next up will be brake lines and the fuel line. Not one of my favorite things to do but you can't drive it without them!!!
Brian

[rockytopper R.I.P 5-13-2017]

Very Nice congrats on a job well done!!!!!

[chevynut]

If you can get the weight to match one of the stock springs, that would be ideal. Otherwise, the next best thing, would be if you needed a little more, just fine tune it with a light coil over spring, and let a majority of the weight ride on the traverse spring. That's the way I'm going to do it anyway. Could do the same thing in the rear.

Yeah Custer55 just add some ballast to the car to get the weight to match one of the stock springs. And if you can't do that, try to find a 50 lb/in coilover spring or rube goldberg "helper" spring to put around your shock. Maybe a motorcycle shock would work. Yeah, that'll work out great. LOL!

As I said the rear height is easy to deal with and there are a variety of C4 springs that might work and offer different spring rates. The front is more difficult and if shimming or unshimming the spring doesn't work to achieve the desired ride height you may have to modify the spring, or you may have to go to coilovers. To me a coilover AND a stock spring is a really stupid idea and could increase the spring rate to unacceptable levels.

[Troy]

T

My side project of the week was the frame stud for the clutch cross shaft. I ordered one made by Danchuck from Summit Racing but they only had the 56 to 57 one. I was ordering some other parts from Summit anyway so I figured I would just have to modify it to save the shipping cost to buy the right one from elsewhere.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6049&stc=1
Turns out the 56 to 57 frame stud is an 1/8" bigger diameter and has a longer shank than the 55 frame stud. To turn it down to the right dia. for my 55, I chucked it into my poor man's lathe/drill press. I clamped a piece of stock in the drill press vice to use as a tool rest to file it down to the right dia. I used a coarse file first and just kept checking it with a caliper until it was close and finished up with a finer file.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6050&stc=1
To shorten up the shank I wrapped the stud threads with making tape so they wouldn't get damaged in the chuck. Then I set the tool rest so I could use the edge of a flat bastard file as a parting tool.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6052&stc=1
Then is was just a matte of moving the tool rest up to take down the rest of the shank to size. It took a couple of steps to get the whole thing down to size.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6053&stc=1
Here is the finished stud modified for use in a 55 Chevy. I tried to cut threads on the new shank but couldn't hold it tight enough without risking damage to the stud ball so I'll just have to use a few extra washers when I bolt it on. I should have cut down the shank first then cut new threads before turning down the stud but I didn't figure out the shank was to long until after I had the ball end finished.

Tomorrow I will be working on priming and painting the Corvette K-member, trans cross member and upper shock mounts so those can get bolted back in the frame. It's supposed to be 55 degrees so hopefully paint will dry a little faster.
Brian

Nice Machine Shop!! :D I remember those days before I got some machine tools!!! Hey doing what it takes is what it's about!!

[chevynut]

Nice Machine Shop!! :D I remember those days before I got some machine tools!!! Hey doing what it takes is what it's about!!

Yep, I love seeing guys do things using whatever they happen to have. I've used a wood router on aluminum and rolled some of my under-hood parts over an oxygen cylinder. I've made a brake out of pieces of angle iron before I finally bought a brake. You can do a lot with a bare minimum of tools if you try. As they say, necessity is the mother of invention.

[Custer55]

Reassembly continues over the last week and a half or so. Not much time to post anything as I've been working until 12:00 am to 1:00 am most nights.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6073&stc=1 http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6074&stc=1
Brake line routing in the rear. The T fitting turned out to be a pain in the butt. After I had the body back on and starting bleeding the brakes I ended up with a huge puddle of brake fluid under the car. All three connections on the fitting were leaking even with no brake pressure on the lines at all. It's good now since replacing it with a different brand (Dorman, The defective one was made by Eddleman). The worst part was having to replace it with the body back on the frame with very little room to get at it. I would mount it in a spot with better access with the body on if I had to do it again, just never had any issues with fittings like that before. I guess the quality is not what it used to be on them.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6075&stc=1
Right front line routed back to the left hand side. This one ended up just short of making it to the proportioning valve,(60" line) so I had to make a short line for the final connection.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6076&stc=1
Left front line under the frame and back up and around to the proportioning valve. This one I was able to leave it long and cut and flare to length after the body was back on. The line from the rear I had positioned just right to hook up to the proportioning valve as I had taken some good measurements the last time the body had been on the frame.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6077&stc=1
The fuel line I routed down the inside of the passenger side frame rail. I ended up making a stand off bracket just behind the sway bar mount to get around that and the last inside body mount.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6078&stc=1
Line routed up to close to the gas tank position. I just needed a short hose to hook it up the gas tank.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6079&stc=1
Engine and tranny back in the frame.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6080&stc=1
Exhaust back in place. I painted it all with POR 20 high temp paint (1400 degrees) I just used a brush to paint as it was a lot faster that way. You can see some brush strokes in it but not bad.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6081&stc=1 http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6082&stc=1
Body back on the frame. Yeah!!

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6083&stc=1
I made a new fluid transfer line for one of the lines on the steering rack by cutting off the original line, double flaring the end and connecting that to new line bent up to clear everything. I'm sure there is a better way to do this but I just needed to get something done that will work for now.
The other line cleared everything fine as is Having an old engine without a harmonic balancer has it's advantages.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6084&stc=1 http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6085&stc=1
This is where I left off tonight. Battery and box back in place, all the wiring hooked back up to the engine, Carb, fuel lines and throttle linkage, power steering pump and lines hooked up, alternator and pulleys back on, and alternator belt tension adjuster made up. On the power steering pump lines I used the stock Corvette for the return line, and made the pressure line with Russell powerflex hose and fittings. I did start the engine today too, just for a few seconds at a time with no coolant in the engine yet, but it was great to hear it running again. :cool: After starting it up I had a couple of fuel links though. One was just the o-ring on the fuel filter so that was an easy fix, and the coupling on the fuel line to the tank was leaking. That one I just had to tighten up the fitting some more.
With any luck (no more leaks hopefully) I should have it back on the road by next week end. Just in time for Back to the 50's. Just a week and a half away right now.
Brian

[Custer55]

Work continued this week with re-assembly. I made a to do list and got all but one checked off at this point. The remaining one on the list is not a must as it's just an adjustment rod for the power steering pump that's just more of a convenience thing.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6092&stc=1 http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6093&stc=1
To mount my old fan shroud to the core support I bent the lip of the support in so it would line up the width of the shroud. I just made up some brackets from 22 gauge steel to attach it to the support. I had planed to make a single long bracket for each side out of Aluminum but I just ran of time so these will have to do for now.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6094&stc=1
Core support with shroud back in place on the car.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6095&stc=1
Left front fender back on the car.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6096&stc=1 http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6097&stc=1
Late Thursday night the passenger fender hood and grille back in place.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6098&stc=1 http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6099&stc=1
Friday night after work I got in a quick ride down the road and a couple of pics before going to work at the local circle track. All done at this point other than the bumpers and the exhaust tips.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6100&stc=1 http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6101&stc=1
Installed the bumpers and exhaust tips this morning and took the first ride to calibrate the speedometer (Which is super simple with the Dakota Digital dash), and fill it up with gas. Then went to a little cruise in at the local Wendy's tonight. So far so good with no leaks anywhere. The stance is pretty close to what I was shooting for. I haven't taken any high speed corners like an interstate off ramp yet, just a few low speed corners so far, but you can tell it handles way better than before. No big lean like before going around corners. The steering is night and day difference for the better. Nice and tight and quick. 2 turns lock to lock vs whatever the stock 55 box is. Ride wise it's excellent. Smoother than our 90 Vette. I'm sure the longer wheelbase helps, and I have the shocks (Stock 3 way adjustable) set on the softest settings. I may turn the rear shocks up to the performance setting and see how it feels. I just have to manually turn the adjusters at the top of the shocks, no in car switch like on the 90 Corvette the parts came from. The brakes are working good also. I think I need to dial in a little more rear brake though. I am glad I went with the 1" master cylinder as pedal effort is not touchy at all to this point with the stock 55 pedal ratio.
Overall just awesome to be able to drive it again!!!!! :cool::cool::cool:
Brian

[55 Rescue Dog]

Car looks great, and what an awesome job getting it back together, and on the road in record time!

[chevynut]

Congrats on a great project and great documentation of the build. I'll be curious about your driving impressions when you push it a little more.

[Custer55]

Car looks great, and what an awesome job getting it back together, and on the road in record time!

Thanks RD
Lots of late nights the past month or so to get to this point. All well worth the effort though.
Looking forward to driving it as much as I can now.
Brian

[Custer55]

Congrats on a great project and great documentation of the build. I'll be curious about your driving impressions when you push it a little more.

Thanks Lazlo,
I did take it out on the freeway Sunday night. I didn't push it to hard but it takes the on and off ramps pretty well. 50 mph on a 30 mph ramp was no where close to the limit, very comfortable at that speed. Tonight I turned the rear shocks up the stiffest setting to see how that feels. The ride was more like our Corvette at that setting but still not harsh, so shocks obviously have a big affect on ride quality and handling. My tires for now from my 95 Trans Am are 245/50/16's so that has an effect on ride and handling also, since they are an inch narrower and have a 1/2" higher sidewall than the tires on our Corvette which are 275/40/17's.
At least the tires and wheels I am using now are a good starting point to now what will work well once I invest in set of wheels and tires for my 55.
Very happy with the results so far. If your working on one now "Git R Done" :D
Brian

[Custer55]

We made out to St. Paul and back for Back to the 50's weekend without any issues with the new C4 frame set up. I was a little nervous about going that far from home (200+miles) with only about 70 miles on the car after putting it all back together but the car ran just like it always did before. Just with a lot better handling and steering!! The weather was great this year. We just had a light mist early Thursday morning on the way out, which was good because my front tires don't have much tread left on them!!
The show was great as usual, over 12,000 cars registered this year. Lots of vendors selling parts! Dave Kindig and Kev Dog were there with 3 of the cars they built on "Bitchin Rides" too, so that was pretty cool.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6108&stc=1 http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6109&stc=1
All put together, cleaned up and ready for the trip to St. Paul
http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6110&stc=1
At the show Friday morning, The 57 belongs to our friends that live just down the road.
http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6111&stc=1 http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6112&stc=1
The Copper Caddy, and the Buick from Bitchin Rides. Their cars look even better in person!!
http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6113&stc=1
I got my picture taken with them, Super cool guys!!
http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6114&stc=1 http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6115&stc=1 http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6116&stc=1 http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6117&stc=1
A few cars from the show, Always a great variety of cars with a 1964 or older cut off. Plenty of Tri-fives too. You can't walk to far without seeing one. I remember one year hearing that there is more 55 Chevys at the show than any other car.

Iola car show and swap will be coming up the weekend after the 4th of July so that's coming pretty quick. I'll probably won't be doing to much on mine the rest of the summer, Just driving it as much as I can and having fun with it.
Last week I helped my son start working on his 60 T-Bird project so that will keep us both busy for a while.
Brian :cool:

[rockytopper R.I.P 5-13-2017]

Awesome Bryan great job!!!!!

[chevynut]

Congrats on making it to the show! Awesome!

Just had the owner of project #69 take his frame back to Seattle this morning. No sooner did they leave and I got a call from another Texan wanting a frame. ;) We have a couple more projects in the schedule already so we'll have to fit his in. :)

[Custer55]

I have been looking at wheel and tire options for my 55 with the C4 set up. For the rear it looks like a 10" wide wheel with a 7 3/8 back space should work with a 275 to 285 tire. Up front an 8" wheel with a 6 1/2" back space with a 245 tire will work with out any clearance issues. Right now I have 95 Trans Am wheels on it which are 16 x 8 w/55mm offset (approx. 6 3/4 back space) and 245 tires with plenty of clearance.
Options I have been looking at are Budnick custom wheels which they can build with the required back space but are $1,800. plus for a set of 4.
I was looking on ebay recently for C5 & C6 wheels. They come in 9.5 and up for the rear in 18" and 19" dia. and 8.5" front wheels in 17" and 18". Price varies based on condition and wheel style from $400. and up for a set of 4. Most of these would need spacers as they have a more back space than would work on a C4 set up.
Another option I saw was for C6 Grand sport replicas made to fit a C4 in 17 x 8 1/2 and 18 x 9.5 combo with back space very close to what I would need. Just under $800. for a set of these.
So I cleaned up the 90 Corvette wheels I have to put them on ebay while I consider my options. Today just to make sure an 8 1/2" wheel and tire combo would clear ok on the front I bolted on the 90 Vette wheels to see how much clearance I have with those, 275/40/17's on 9.5" wheels with 7 7/16 bs. (56mm offset stamped on back of wheel). I was pleasantly surprised that they fit fine and didn't have any rubbing at all on the fender or frame. I just went for a short ride at 30 mph or so because the tires are old with cracking in the tread area. I backed up and turned full lock in both directions and took a turn at the end of our road at 25 mph or so at near full lock with no rubbing any where.
Here is pictures with the 90 Vette wheels on the front and the TA wheels on the back.
http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6239&stc=1http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6240&stc=1http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6241&stc=1http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6242&stc=1
So I am looking for opinions on how the Corvette wheels look on here. Don't worry about hurting my feelings, I want your honest opinion.
Also any body else that has a C4 conversion Tri-5 let me know what you have used for wheels and post a picture if you can.
Thanks, Brian

[chevynut]

I had to look back to see what vintage suspensions you had, early or late, and I see you have late front and rear. That makes a pretty big difference in wheel selection.

Also, I prefer to talk offset rather than backspacing, because backspacing changes as wheel width changes.

Here's my take on fitment.....

Your stock rear wheelwell lips are probably around 71.5" wide inside width (you should measure them). The inner wheelwell in the rear is 46.5" wide. So you have 12.5" to work with in each wheelwell. Assuming you allow only 1/2" on the outside and 3/4" on the inside, that theoretically limits you to a 285 nominal width tire (11.25") and that's pushing it and everything has to be right on. I personally wouldn't go closer than 3/4" to the tub on the inside but maybe you have info to support going closer.

Assuming the above dimensions and clearances, the centers of your tires would be at 59.25". The late C4 rear is 63.25" wide with discs. That means you'd need wheels with +2" offset (~+51mm) to get that fitment in the rear. For a 9.5" wheel that would be 7.25" backspacing.

In front I usually recommend no more than 67.5" wide on the outside of the tires. A 245 (9.6") tire would put the centers at 57.9". The late C4 front is 62" wide at the wheel mounting surfaces (I haven't measured it super accurately) so you would need +2.05" offset (~+52mm) to get there. For an 8.5" wheel that would be 6.8" backspacing.

As far as the style of wheels, that's a personal preference. I don't really care for the C4 wheels myself, and I have C5 Z06 replicas on my Nomad for now. The front tires are 245s on 8.5x17 wheels and the rears are 295s on 10.5x18 wheels. I think the rear wheels need a spacer because I narrowed the IRS 3" and have over 1" clearance to the fenderwell. I will probably go custom once I get it running.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6243&stc=1

[Custer55]

Your right. The key is to get the wheel centered in the opening as that centers the tire also. The 90 Corvette wheels would probably need a 1/4 or so spacer to center them properly. I know the clearance was tighter on the inside than the outside when I was setting up my frame. I am considering using the C4 wheels now since I have a pair that are in decent shape that clear with the 275's so I would just need new tires for those (which I need anyway as the tires on the Trans Am wheel have very little tread left). They should clear a bit better with a 255 or 245 tire. For the rear the wheels I have need repair and refinishing and new tires. I may have to "borrow" the wheels and tires off my better half's Corvette to try it out. :cool:
Brian

[rockytopper R.I.P 5-13-2017]

I'm a fan of 5 spoke wheels on trifives but I have seen a couple with 10 spoke that look pretty good IMHO. Might be an option for you with C4 setup
http://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk243/rockytoppers1/Mobile%20Uploads/image_23.jpeg

[55 Rescue Dog]

I'm hoping to come up with around 295's or so front and rear, with some fender radius of course. And, forget about zero scrub radius! If it takes tires outside the body to make it work, I'll try it. Although not always the best set-up, deep dish wheels always look good.

[Custer55]

I'm a fan of 5 spoke wheels on trifives but I have seen a couple with 10 spoke that look pretty good IMHO. Might be an option for you with C4 setup
http://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk243/rockytoppers1/Mobile%20Uploads/image_23.jpeg

Thanks for the input Rocky. It always helps to see wheels on a car similar to your own. What looks good in a catalog or another car doesn't always look as good on your own car.
The 10 spoke style looks pretty good on that 56. I lean more towards a 5 spoke design for which Budnick has some nice options. I just don't have the budget for those right now. I will probably just try the C4 wheels from our 90 Corvette right now. I think they look a little better than the painted Trans Am wheels (I prefer polished wheels over painted or chrome wheels) and will fill the wheel openings much better. It will only cost me my time to try it out!!
Brian

[rockytopper R.I.P 5-13-2017]

They look pretty good on 55's too lol. I took this pic at a GG show a few years back.
http://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk243/rockytoppers1/IMG_2229_1.jpg

[Custer55]

This weekend I borrowed the wheels and tires from our 90 Corvette (after a good cleaning) for my 55.
After taking some measurements on the rear for inside and outside clearance I figured the wheels needed to move outward a little bit to get them centered in the wheel wells. I made some spacers out of 3/16" aluminum for the rear which makes the original 56mm offset wheel into a 51.2 mm offset wheel, (7 1/4" backspace) so Lazlo is right on the money as to the offset wheel needed.

http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6280&stc=1 http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6281&stc=1http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6282&stc=1 http://www.trifivechevys.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6283&stc=1

I'm not crazy about the style of the wheels, but I think they look better than the painted Trans Am wheels. I definitely prefer polished aluminum over painted or chrome. And they fill the wheel openings much better with 275 vs the 245 width. I went for a ride tonight and had no rubbing at all on the front even with the 275's on the front also. I took a few corners at a pretty good speed but haven't tried any curb and gutter type driveways yet, That will be the best test. If I decide to have my other 90 wheels refinished to use them (Can't keep the Corvette wheels and tires on here for to long and keep peace at home) I would probably get a 245 or 255 tire for the front which would give a bit better clearance and lower the car in the front a bit also. 245's are the narrowest tire recommended for a 9 1/2" wheel.
Brian

[chevynut]

Do you know the overall tire width in front? I'm surprised a 275 works. I could go further inside towad the frame but not outside. So with more offset i could go bigger than 245. The taller 55 fenderwell opening helps.

[Custer55]

Do you know the overall tire width in front? I'm surprised a 275 works. I could go further inside towad the frame but not outside. So with more offset i could go bigger than 245. The taller 55 fenderwell opening helps.

I was surprised that everything clears too. I just put my old wheels and tires on thinking it would just give me a better idea how wide a wheel would work. At the bottom of the tires it measures 68 3/4" wide. I would guess it should be less at the top of the tire with the camber in the front end. Should gain about a 1/4" or so per degree of camber.
FYI my frame rails measured 4 3/8" off the ground just behind the kick up. The fender openings are 23 3/4" from the ground. Slightly smaller tires would be better, even though I have not had any rubs so far, to gain a bit better margin for error.
Brian

[chevynut]

Usually around 68" and you start getting rubbing problems when you turn sharply and the suspension is compressed. However, with the large SAI of the late C4 the tire moves fore and aft a lot when you steer, and the rack limits turning radius a little. I don't think you'd get anywhere near a 275 up front with a stock suspension and steering, even at the same outside tire width.

[Custer55]

Just a quick update. I made a new tilt lever for my modified van column to match the turn signal lever. It is just a 55 turn signal lever and knob trimmed shorter and 1/4" x 28 fine threads cut on the end to replace the van tilt lever with the rubber knob.

https://www.trifive.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=6824&pictureid=67687
https://www.trifive.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=6824&pictureid=67686
This looks much better than the van lever and knob (below)

https://www.trifive.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=6780&pictureid=66253

Brian

[markm]

I did the same thing my aftermarket column in 55 came with ugly billet crap.

[WagonWonder]

Just a quick update. I made a new tilt lever for my modified van column to match the turn signal lever. It is just a 55 turn signal lever and knob trimmed shorter and 1/4" x 28 fine threads cut on the end to replace the van tilt lever with the rubber knob.


Brian

Pretty cool

[Custer55]

I got my new tires mounted and balanced on the Corvette wheels this weekend.
They are Nitto 555 NT tires. 285/40/17 on the rear. 255/40/17 on the front. I had 2 of the wheels refurbished through Keystone Automotive ($150. a piece with tax) and the other 2 I just sanded out the clear coat and gave them a couple fresh coats of clear.

https://www.trifive.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=6824&pictureid=67785
All cleaned up and ready to go on the car.

https://www.trifive.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=6824&pictureid=67786
You can tell the difference in size and the wheel I re-cleared and the refurbished wheel. Hopefully not so noticeable on the car and after a few months of use.

https://www.trifive.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=6824&pictureid=67787

https://www.trifive.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=6824&pictureid=67788
Bolted on and ready for a test drive, but that will have to wait until next weekend if the weather is nice again next weekend. (There is a chance of rain snow mix mid week.) It sits about 3/8" lower in front due to the smaller tire on the front and slightly higher in back so I may adjust the rear ride height with the spring bolts. I would not put any bigger tire than the 285 on the rear as they were a challenge to get them on the car. I had to unbolt the rear shocks to let the wheels drop a bit more to get them on the car. I may have to see if I can lower the rear shock mounts to avoid that in the future. The drivers side had just enough room (still the original quarter panel) but the passenger side I had to let the air out of the tire and then I was just able to force it past the wheel opening. The lower quarter panel was replaced a few years after I bought the car back in the 70's so I think the wheel opening is a bit lower on that side. I still need to get center caps for the wheels also. I only have 3 and there not in very good shape so I may have to check out Ebay. My wife will be happy now as she will get her wheels and tires I borrowed back on her Corvette.https://www.trifive.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif

[chevynut]

Looks great Custer55. Who is this "Keystone" company you're referring to? I was thinking I'd like to have my truck wheels refurbished. The clearcoat sux.....you put a wheel weight on the wheel, it chips the clearcoat, and corrosion starts. I wish they WEREN'T clearcoated.

I still don't know how you ever ran a 275 tire on the front of your car. I have a customer's frame in the shop right now that has 275s on 9.5" C4 wheels with 50mm offset on a late suspension. At full lock, the tires are barely clearing the frame....like by 1/16" but that's at full shock extension (~2-2.5" droop). I know you said you had 56mm offset wheels which would make it worse. Our frame rails are parallel at 34 3/4" width at the point the tires touch the frame. Maybe at ride height there is more clearance but I don't know for sure how much. Also, the outside of the tires is at about 68.75" which is really wide, way too wide for a dropped car imo. 12mm less would be 68.28" which is where yours theoretically should be. I'm curious if your tires would rub the fender if you removed the front spring, went to full lock, and pushed the suspension up to max compression travel. I suspect they would. ;)

Some day I plan to remove the front spring of my 56 parts car and see if I can figure out where the limit is on tire width by putting spacers between the wheel and hub and running through full suspension travel at full lock......if I ever have time. ;)

This is looking down on the driver's side tire at full lock.

7041

[BamaNomad]

The refurbished 90 Corvette wheels look great on your '55!~ I've considered using them on my car as well, but the ones I have are from a ZR-1 and the 11" width on the rear wheels is too wide for the car and chassis. I'm a bit surprised that the 9.5" wheels work for your fronts... I haven't decided on a size yet, but for myself and my use, I'd rather use a 7" or 7.5" wide wheel without issues than a wider one that scrubs at times. I think they made the 90 Corvette wheels in 8.5" width as well as the 9.5" and the 11" ZR1 size. If the 9.5 wide wheel works for you, that may encourage me to look for a set of 8.5's.. :)

[Custer55]

Looks great Custer55. Who is this "Keystone" company you're referring to? I was thinking I'd like to have my truck wheels refurbished. The clearcoat sux.....you put a wheel weight on the wheel, it chips the clearcoat, and corrosion starts. I wish they WEREN'T clearcoated.

I still don't know how you ever ran a 275 tire on the front of your car. I have a customer's frame in the shop right now that has 275s on 9.5" C4 wheels with 50mm offset on a late suspension. At full lock, the tires are barely clearing the frame....like by 1/16" but that's at full shock extension (~2-2.5" droop). I know you said you had 56mm offset wheels which would make it worse. Our frame rails are parallel at 34 3/4" width at the point the tires touch the frame. Maybe at ride height there is more clearance but I don't know for sure how much. Also, the outside of the tires is at about 68.75" which is really wide, way too wide for a dropped car imo. 12mm less would be 68.28" which is where yours theoretically should be. I'm curious if your tires would rub the fender if you removed the front spring, went to full lock, and pushed the suspension up to max compression travel. I suspect they would. ;)

Some day I plan to remove the front spring of my 56 parts car and see if I can figure out where the limit is on tire width by putting spacers between the wheel and hub and running through full suspension travel at full lock......if I ever have time. ;)

This is looking down on the driver's side tire at full lock.

7041

Thanks! Keystone Automotive is a body shop parts and materials supplier. They have locations all over the place http://www.lkqcorp.com/en-us/locationResults. They sell mostly to body shops, but they do sell to anyone at the Stevens Point, WI location. A friend of mine runs a business in the same building as them so I am able to get his discount when I buy stuff from them. If you search the internet there are other places to get wheels re-done but you have to send them to them by ups or fedex so it was easier for me to just do it locally.
I was surprised to that the 275's didn't rub anywhere. I never crawled under the car to see just how close so mine may have been about the same as yours. My frame width is the same as a stock 55 Chevy frame at the point where the tire is closest to the frame at full lock. I think there may be a little better clearance at ride height than at full droop or full compression. The clearance at full lock is a bit better now with the 255's on the front (maybe an extra 1/4" of clearance). I'm not sure what would happen at full lock and full compression but I don't think that will happen very often if at all driving the car. Probably the only time that may happen is going into a steep driveway opening to fast, so it's fairly easy to avoid that.
Brian :)

[Custer55]

The refurbished 90 Corvette wheels look great on your '55!~ I've considered using them on my car as well, but the ones I have are from a ZR-1 and the 11" width on the rear wheels is too wide for the car and chassis. I'm a bit surprised that the 9.5" wheels work for your fronts... I haven't decided on a size yet, but for myself and my use, I'd rather use a 7" or 7.5" wide wheel without issues than a wider one that scrubs at times. I think they made the 90 Corvette wheels in 8.5" width as well as the 9.5" and the 11" ZR1 size. If the 9.5 wide wheel works for you, that may encourage me to look for a set of 8.5's.. :)

Thanks,
I'm pretty sure 11" wheels would be to wide on the back unless you narrow the rear end and widen the wheel tubs. Probably a 10" wheel would be the limit on the back. I'm not sure about 8.5" wheels for a 90 Vette but I think the C5 and up, and maybe later C4's came with 8.5" wheels on the front. When I eventually buy different wheels I will probably go with 9" up front and 10" in the back. The front width you want to use depends on the tire size you are going to use also. If you have a tire size in mind just get a wheel that is the best width for that tire and then figure out what offset will put the outside of the tire where you want it. Always better to have a bit to much offset though as you can use a spacer to move the wheel out a bit if you need to. I have 3/16" spacers on my rear wheels, which centers them in the tub pretty well.
Brian :)

[WagonWonder]

I know I'm knew here but it seems to me that concern over "full lock" as described above would only be very rare, momentary and under some severe circumstances which most likely would results in, near or during a wreck. I understand the desire to know but just can't vision myself and my wagon getting in that shape and hope I never do.

[chevynut]

I know I'm knew here but it seems to me that concern over "full lock" as described above would only be very rare, momentary and under some severe circumstances which most likely would results in, near or during a wreck. I understand the desire to know but just can't vision myself and my wagon getting in that shape and hope I never do.

Yes it's probably rare unless you drive aggressively as in an autocross. Also keep in mind that some of the C4 racks are only 1.96 turns lock to lock, so about 1 turn center to lock. It may happen more with a C4 setup than a tri5 stock steering that you have to crank and crank to get to lock. :)

The thing is for me is, I don't EVER want the tire to be able to touch the fender, even if it may be a "rare" occurrence.

[chevynut]

I've considered using them on my car as well, but the ones I have are from a ZR-1 and the 11" width on the rear wheels is too wide for the car and chassis.

It depends on offset and whether you have minitubs or not. An 11" wheel with a 295 tire should work if you have minitubs. If not, a 275 or possibly a 285 is about the limit. You would need a minimum of about +60mm offset for them to work with a 295 tire on a late rear suspension. It would be really tight. Unfortunately, all the C4 ZR-1 11" wheels had 36mm offset. The GS 11" wheels had 56mm offset which might work depending on actual fenderwell width.


If the 9.5 wide wheel works for you, that may encourage me to look for a set of 8.5's.. :)

I have 8.5" wheels with +50mm offset and 245 tires on the front of my Nomad with a late suspension. No rubbing problems inside or outside.

[BamaNomad]

That's great information CN... that 8.5" wheels with 50mm offset and 245 tires 'work' without rubbing or interference. I assume you are referring to a standard Corvette 17" wheel of a specific year?? Or?

I like the 90 Corvette wheels utilized by Custer55 but I was a bit surprised that 9.5" would work on the front. For my 57, I lean towards a simple appearing 5-spoke wheel (preferably GM design). I had hoped to use the C5 magnesium wheels, but the ones I tried would not work with my chassis. I don't need HUGE, max width tires. I just want it to handle well, brake well, and of course look good too.. but I'm not going for a 'hotrod/racer' look or function for maximum traction. I think 8.5" is probably the largest I would want to go for the rear, and a 7 or 7.5" wheel would suit me just fine on the front. You seem to have a wealth of information on wheel fitment with the stock-width C4 suspension under Trifive bodies, and I learn something every time you post info on that! :) I still don't have enough knowledge/information to choose a wheel that is going to suit me; so I will probably wait until I sit the body on the chassis and do some measurement as to 'inner wheel clearance', and outer wheel clearance from the wheel mount point. I also would prefer to be able to mount/dismount a wheel/tire without issues (loosening lower shock mount, etc).

PS. Obviously it's difficult to make any absolute or even near absolute statements when tubs and modified frames/suspensions are involved, as each situation would/could be unique...

[Custer55]

That's great information CN... that 8.5" wheels with 50mm offset and 245 tires 'work' without rubbing or interference. I assume you are referring to a standard Corvette 17" wheel of a specific year?? Or?

I like the 90 Corvette wheels utilized by Custer55 but I was a bit surprised that 9.5" would work on the front. For my 57, I lean towards a simple appearing 5-spoke wheel (preferably GM design). I had hoped to use the C5 magnesium wheels, but the ones I tried would not work with my chassis. I don't need HUGE, max width tires. I just want it to handle well, brake well, and of course look good too.. but I'm not going for a 'hotrod/racer' look or function for maximum traction. I think 8.5" is probably the largest I would want to go for the rear, and a 7 or 7.5" wheel would suit me just fine on the front. You seem to have a wealth of information on wheel fitment with the stock-width C4 suspension under Trifive bodies, and I learn something every time you post info on that! :) I still don't have enough knowledge/information to choose a wheel that is going to suit me; so I will probably wait until I sit the body on the chassis and do some measurement as to 'inner wheel clearance', and outer wheel clearance from the wheel mount point. I also would prefer to be able to mount/dismount a wheel/tire without issues (loosening lower shock mount, etc).

PS. Obviously it's difficult to make any absolute or even near absolute statements when tubs and modified frames/suspensions are involved, as each situation would/could be unique...

Bama, I don't think you would have the mount/dismount issues I do with a 57. The wheel opening on a 55 is lower than a 56 or 57. If you look back in my build I originally used 95 Trans Am wheels and tires. 16 x 8 wheels with 55 mm offset (6 3/4" back space). Those were a good starting point to see what would fit. To me those were to narrow and didn't fill the wheel wells enough for my taste. And on the back they were harder to get on and off because of the smaller rim dia. and taller tire side wall (245/50/16). The front and rear tire calculator on this site is a great tool also. I have used it many times!!

Brian

[BamaNomad]

Brian... THANKS for referencing 'the tire calculator' on this site.. :) as I had never explored the site and seen that. I WILL use that information now.. so Thanks again!

[chevynut]

That's great information CN... that 8.5" wheels with 50mm offset and 245 tires 'work' without rubbing or interference. I assume you are referring to a standard Corvette 17" wheel of a specific year?? Or?

My wheels are C5 replicas with 50mm offset. I need to check the offset because I recall them saying they were "C4 offset" which was 56mm, but they were also 9.5" wide. I thought I measured them once and they were 50mm offset. I'll check again.


I like the 90 Corvette wheels utilized by Custer55 but I was a bit surprised that 9.5" would work on the front.

I never understood why guys talk about "wheels" fitting. It's the TIRES that cause the problem. You can use a 9.5" wheel with a 245 tire and it will fit...try a 275 tire on the same wheel and it likely won't fit. Newman used to recommend 245 tires on 9.5" wheels but I personally think the wheel is too wide for that tire. I think the tire should be the same width or wider than the wheel.


I also would prefer to be able to mount/dismount a wheel/tire without issues (loosening lower shock mount, etc).

That's another issue. My calculations only show whether a wheel/tire combo will fit ONCE INSTALLED. Getting them on is another issue, and is more difficult on some cars than others. I used a longer coilover and I'm able to remove the 295 rear tires without disconnecting the shocks. A larger wheel also helps since it has a bigger hole in the center. ;)

[chevynut]

Brian... THANKS for referencing 'the tire calculator' on this site.. :) as I had never explored the site and seen that. I WILL use that information now.. so Thanks again!

Bamanomad, that calculator is based on the one I put together years ago in Excel format. Someone else put it into the format it's in. Some of the information in that one is slightly off. For example, the early C4 rear is 62.25" wide and the late rear is 63.25" wide according to my most recent measurements. Also my measurements show the early C4 front width at 61" and the late front width at 62" but the numbers in the calculator are close.

That calculator uses backspacing which I don't like to use. Offset makes more sense to me and my original spreadsheet allowed the user to input offset or backspacing and calculate the other parameter. Not sure why he chose to use backspacing.

Also, body measurements should be taken off of your car. My 56 Nomad rear fenderwell lips are 71 11/16" wide. I just measured a 55 in the shop and they're 71 1/4" wide. Others have measured their cars as wide as 72". If you're really trying to squeeze a tire in, that difference is significant.

[55 Rescue Dog]

It appears my RR C4 frame has been narrowed in that area for inboard tire clearance. :)
7042

[55 Rescue Dog]

For anyone that might not know, production wheels have the offset marked on the wheel. Here is a 20 x 8.5 inch wheel with a +44mm offset. Regardless of backspacing, it's any change in the offset is what affects the more important track width, which needs to be considered too.
7043

[chevynut]

Regardless of backspacing, it's any change in the offset is what affects the more important track width, which needs to be considered too.

For a given wheel width, if offset changes backspacing changes by the same amount. An 8" wheel with zero offset has 4.5" backspacing. If you increase offset to +.5" backspacing is now 5". Offset and backspacing are directly related.

If you stay inside the confines of the car's sheetmetal, track width can't be changed very much. You have a certain sized wheelwell, and if you maximize tire size the track width is pretty much fixed. A narrow tire pushed outboard as far as possible (still inside the wheelwell) maximizes the calculated track width, but how does that help anything? For example, a 255 rear tire with 1/2" wheelwell lip clearance results in a track width of about 60.5" assuming a 71.5" wheelwell lip width. A 295 tire with the same clearance results in a track width of 58.5". Which is going to perform better, the 255 or the 295?

[55 Rescue Dog]

For a given wheel width, if offset changes backspacing changes by the same amount. An 8" wheel with zero offset has 4.5" backspacing. If you increase offset to +.5" backspacing is now 5". Offset and backspacing are directly related.

If you stay inside the confines of the car's sheetmetal, track width can't be changed very much. You have a certain sized wheelwell, and if you maximize tire size the track width is pretty much fixed. A narrow tire pushed outboard as far as possible (still inside the wheelwell) maximizes the calculated track width, but how does that help anything? For example, a 255 rear tire with 1/2" wheelwell lip clearance results in a track width of about 60.5" assuming a 71.5" wheelwell lip width. A 295 tire with the same clearance results in a track width of 58.5". Which is going to perform better, the 255 or the 295?
Well, as far as cornering goes I would have to say the wider track/narrower tire could corner faster than a narrow track/wider tire would. Otherwise, I guess I didn't know that a narrower track width was better for cornering loads on the tire.

[chevynut]

Well, as far as cornering goes I would have to say the wider track/narrower tire could corner faster than a narrow track/wider tire would. Otherwise, I guess I didn't know that a narrower track width was better for cornering loads on the tire.

How could a wider track/narrower tire corner better than a wider tire, when BOTH tire outside edges are at the same width? The wider tire also has more traction.

If what you say is true and a narrower tire with a wider track is better, you should be using a 195 rear tire pushed out to within 1/2" of the wheelwell lip to get a track width of 62.8". That's even better than the 255 by 2.3"!! :p

Try that. :D

[BamaNomad]

I think I have to agree with CN on this one.. :)

[Custer55]

Think of it this way. As the tires wear on a race car the lap times slow down. The suspension design doesn't change, the only difference is the amount of traction the tire has to the racing surface. A wider tire given the same tire compound/design will always have more traction.
Brian

[chevynut]

Think of it this way. As the tires wear on a race car the lap times slow down. The suspension design doesn't change, the only difference is the amount of traction the tire has to the racing surface. A wider tire given the same tire compound/design will always have more traction.
Brian

The effective gear ratio also changes as the tire gets smaller, resulting in slower speed at the same RPM.

[55 Rescue Dog]

How could a wider track/narrower tire corner better than a wider tire, when BOTH tire outside edges are at the same width? The wider tire also has more traction.

If what you say is true and a narrower tire with a wider track is better, you should be using a 195 rear tire pushed out to within 1/2" of the wheelwell lip to get a track width of 62.8". That's even better than the 255 by 2.3"!! :p

Try that. :D
In case you didn't know, track width is measured from the wheel CENTERLINES, not the outside width. A narrower track loads the outboard tire more while taking weight off the inside tire, decreasing total traction. If you stand with your feet together, you can't lean to the side very far before you tip over. If you spread your feet wide apart you are much more stable, and can lean quickly side to side, while keeping both feet planted. A wider track has the same effect as lowering the center of gravity. If you have ever have done any Kart racing it makes more sense. You know pretty quick when you have narrowed the track too much to adjust weight transfer, while on your head laying underneath the kart looking up at the sky.
On your car you said you narrowed the track 3 inches with your current wheels, so if you went 2 inches wider on the wheels/tires inboard, wouldn't you have narrowed the track width by like 7 inches? Then yes, a 195 wide tire would probably corner better.

[WagonWonder]

In case you didn't know, track width is measured from the wheel CENTERLINES, not the outside width. A narrower track loads the outboard tire more while taking weight off the inside tire, decreasing total traction. If you stand with your feet together, you can't lean to the side very far before you tip over. If you spread your feet wide apart you are much more stable, and can lean quickly side to side, while keeping both feet planted. A wider track has the same effect as lowering the center of gravity. If you have ever have done any Kart racing it makes more sense. You know pretty quick when you have narrowed the track too much to adjust weight transfer, while on your head laying underneath the kart looking up at the sky.
On your car you said you narrowed the track 3 inches with your current wheels, so if you went 2 inches wider on the wheels/tires inboard, wouldn't you have narrowed the track width by like 7 inches? Then yes, a 195 wide tire would probably corner better.

I sure would like to see the math on that.

[55 Rescue Dog]

I sure would like to see the math on that.
Plenty math here to look at.

https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/race-car-physics.281902/

[Custer55]

My take is wider tires will always have better traction given the same tire design and compound. Wider track width will have better stability. So somewhere there is a optimum compromise between the two which would take many$$ worth of testing to find and even then it would only be valid for the parameters of that test. On race car you have to fall within the rules of your sanction body. On a street car you have to keep your tires within the available space of your wheel wells without rubbing on anything, and not may street driven vehicles will ever be driven to the limits of what they are capable of anyway. At least mine never will. My goal is more about the right look and stance than perfect handliing. So to me this is a pointless discussion.
Thanks, Brian

[NickP]

Plenty math here to look at.

https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/race-car-physics.281902/

What does this prove?

[BamaNomad]

My take is wider tires will always have better traction given the same tire design and compound. Wider track width will have better stability. So somewhere there is a optimum compromise between the two which would take many$$ worth of testing to find and even then it would only be valid for the parameters of that test. On race car you have to fall within the rules of your sanction body. On a street car you have to keep your tires within the available space of your wheel wells without rubbing on anything, and not may street driven vehicles will ever be driven to the limits of what they are capable of anyway. At least mine never will. My goal is more about the right look and stance than perfect handliing. So to me this is a pointless discussion.
Thanks, Brian

A 'theoretical' argument... :) The *real world* involves compromises on compromises.. just as Brian states.

[chevynut]

In case you didn't know, track width is measured from the wheel CENTERLINES, not the outside width.

No shit Sherlock? If you did ther math you'd see that my numbers I quoted are for the tire centerlines, i.e. track width.


A narrower track loads the outboard tire more while taking weight off the inside tire, decreasing total traction.

A narrower track with the same tire width, yes. That's because the outside edge of the tire moves inboard. As I showed, you can narrow the track with a wider tire and have the outside edge of the tire in the exact same place. How can that hurt handling?

<irrelevant stuff deleted>


On your car you said you narrowed the track 3 inches with your current wheels, so if you went 2 inches wider on the wheels/tires inboard, wouldn't you have narrowed the track width by like 7 inches? Then yes, a 195 wide tire would probably corner better.

I narrowed the track from what? From a stock C4 rear with C4 wheels? I narrowed the suspension such that the wheel mounting surfaces are 3" narrower than a stock C4. That allows me to put a wider tire on the rear and I can adjust the track width by the wheel offset. I plan to put different custom wheels on the car sometime after it's finished and wrung out a little. You can't get any wider track width on your car than I can, unless you hack the wheelwells. And I can get a lot more rubber on the road.

You obviously are confused about track width versus narrowing the suspension. You can narrow a suspension without affecting track width. My tires are currently inboard as far as they can go due to the dogbones and swaybar. Even if I didn't narrow the suspension and used the same wheels and tires, they'd be as far inboard as they could go due to wheel offset and tire width. Any additional width to get to a 335 or 345 tire would have to be outboard. I have room to go outboard, either with wheel spacers, wider wheels, or different offset. Narrowing a suspension doesn't necessarily change track width unless you use the same wheels.

Surely you're kidding about a 195 tire cornering better than a 295 tire with the outboard edges in the same place. That's absolutely ridiculous.:-D

I think you put way too much emphasis on track width without understanding what else is going on. IMO if the outside of the tires are at the same location, actual track width is pretty much irrelevant. On a turn the outside of the outside tire is taking most of the load. It doesn't matter as much where the center of the tire is as it does where the outside edge of it is.


Plenty math here to look at. https://www.physicsforums.com/thread...hysics.281902/ (https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/race-car-physics.281902/)

Exactly WHAT in that link is at all relevant to this discussion? I see nothing. How about showing some of that "math" here?

[chevynut]

RD, you seem to be obsessed with the fact that I narrowed my suspension and think that somehow I screwed it up. But you have yet to explain what the effect of that was and how it hurts my suspension. I have explained to you WHY I did it, and what the effects are.

In the rear of my Nomad the outside of my tires are currently 68" wide. They're 12" 295s so the rear track width is 56". I can put 1 1/4" spacers between the wheels and the discs and get it to 70 1/2" wide and 58 1/2" track width, which I think is good. That's probably where I'll end up with custom wheels but perhaps with a wider tire (325 or 335??), so the track width will shrink <gasp!> :eek:. A stock C4 rear with 50mm offset wheels and 275 tires has a theoretical track width of 59.33" and an overall tire width of 70.49".

Here's a couple of questions for you, see below. In diagram A the tires have the same track width...which will perform better (handling) and why, or are they the same?
In diagram B, the tires have the same outside width, but the large tires have a smaller track width. Which will perform better, and why? Of course these are exaggerated, so don't get hung up on that.:p

7044

7045

[55 Rescue Dog]

Assuming this is 4 different rear axels that are cornering, I would say that the 2nd one on drawing "A" both would transfer the same amount of weight, but the wider tire could achieve most grip of the 4 examples. On drawing "B" the narrow tire would have less load transferred, and maybe perform better, because in bottom drawing it looks like it could lift the inside tire off the ground, and tuck the outboard tire under and flip the car.

[Troy]

I'm just wondering here, I was told years ago when I was racing go karts that a narrower tire with the same weight transfer load would have more load per square inch than a wider tire. This sounds logical. This always seemed odd to me I can see that there would be more load/square inch on the narrower tire causing more grip, but then the wider tire would have less but load there's more area. Is there some point at which the narrow tire would give you more grip?

[55 Rescue Dog]

Although an extreme example of track width that is on my "hacked up" 2900 pound Camaro on a 108 in wheelbase, that of course would not work within a stock body Tri-5. It currently has a front track width of 66 inches 75 in overall, and the rear is 3 inches narrower at a track width of 63 in and 72 in overall. Corners very flat with soft springs, and only a 7/8 inch front sway bar. The rear is only narrower because it was a 1975 Frankland quick-change rear end set-up from a dirt car, but seems to work well. It has a 10.5 4.86 ring gear and is very heavy, but it is so easy to change any of like 75+ different gear ratios in minutes.
Forgot to add, I'm running 15x10 wheels F/R with a 4 inch backspace and 275/60-15 tires.

[chevynut]

Assuming this is 4 different rear axels that are cornering, I would say that the 2nd one on drawing "A" both would transfer the same amount of weight, but the wider tire could achieve most grip of the 4 examples. On drawing "B" the narrow tire would have less load transferred, and maybe perform better, because in bottom drawing it looks like it could lift the inside tire off the ground, and tuck the outboard tire under and flip the car.

I didn't ask you to compare all 4 scenarios. I asked you to compare the tires in drawing A, THEN the tires in drawing B. Try again.

In diagram A the tires have the same track width...which will perform better (handling) and why, or are they the same?
In diagram B, the tires have the same outside width, but the large tires have a smaller track width. Which will perform better, and why?

You seem to be of the opinion that all that matters is track width, independent of anything else, based on your prior comments. I'm trying to show you how wrong that opinion is, with these two drawings.

As a car turns, the body rolls, and the weight is transferred to the outside tire, plus you have additional loading from centrifugal force. There is a side load on the tires so the sidewall of the tire allows the tire to flex, with the tire wanting to roll along the outboard side of the tire. That's where most of the force is. The further outboard the side of the tread is, the more the car resists roll-over. The more tire contact patch touching the road the better the traction. That's why an IRS with camber gain in the rear handles better than a solid axle with no camber gain. The camber gain compensates at least partly for the tendency of the tire to want to roll under and reduce the contact patch. The body roll tends to cancel that camber gain, and that's why anti-sway bars are important for good handling.

[chevynut]

Although an extreme example of track width that is on my "hacked up" 2900 pound Camaro on a 108 in wheelbase, that of course would not work within a stock body Tri-5. It currently has a front track width of 66 inches 75 in overall, and the rear is 3 inches narrower at a track width of 63 in and 72 in overall. Corners very flat with soft springs, and only a 7/8 inch front sway bar. The rear is only narrower because it was a 1975 Frankland quick-change rear end set-up from a dirt car, but seems to work well. It has a 10.5 4.86 ring gear and is very heavy, but it is so easy to change any of like 75+ different gear ratios in minutes.
Forgot to add, I'm running 15x10 wheels F/R with a 4 inch backspace and 275/60-15 tires.

All of that info is pretty irrelevant to this discussion, unless someone wants to hack the fenderwell of their tri5. In that case the wider the tires and the farther they stick out the side of the car the better it's going to perform.

[chevynut]

I'm just wondering here, I was told years ago when I was racing go karts that a narrower tire with the same weight transfer load would have more load per square inch than a wider tire. This sounds logical. This always seemed odd to me I can see that there would be more load/square inch on the narrower tire causing more grip, but then the wider tire would have less but load there's more area. Is there some point at which the narrow tire would give you more grip?

Troy, your argument would suggest that a drag car would run better on narrower rear tires which we know isn't true. Looking at if from a purely physics point of view, friction force is simply the coefficient of friction between the two surfaces multiplied by the normal force (downward loading). Area doesn't factor into it so pounds per square inch of loading is irrelevant. There's more going on there than the simple physics would suggest, and we know empirically that larger tires (with less PSI) have better traction.

[BamaNomad]

Troy, your argument would suggest that a drag car would run better on narrower rear tires which we know isn't true. Looking at if from a purely physics point of view, friction force is simply the coefficient of friction between the two surfaces multiplied by the normal force (downward loading). Area doesn't factor into it so pounds per square inch of loading is irrelevant. There's more going on there than the simple physics would suggest, and we know empirically that larger tires (with less PSI) have better traction.

This is a very interesting subject for discussion. We addressed this in engineering school and proved that the 'coefficient' of friction between a dragster's tires and pavement is actually HIGHER than 1.0... :) (implying there is an 'interlocking' effect - beyond friction - between the soft tire and the coarseness of the grip surface..? :)

[55 Rescue Dog]

I didn't ask you to compare all 4 scenarios. I asked you to compare the tires in drawing A, THEN the tires in drawing B. Try again.

In diagram A the tires have the same track width...which will perform better (handling) and why, or are they the same?
In diagram B, the tires have the same outside width, but the large tires have a smaller track width. Which will perform better, and why?

You seem to be of the opinion that all that matters is track width, independent of anything else, based on your prior comments. I'm trying to show you how wrong that opinion is, with these two drawings.

As a car turns, the body rolls, and the weight is transferred to the outside tire, plus you have additional loading from centrifugal force. There is a side load on the tires so the sidewall of the tire allows the tire to flex, with the tire wanting to roll along the outboard side of the tire. That's where most of the force is. The further outboard the side of the tread is, the more the car resists roll-over. The more tire contact patch touching the road the better the traction. That's why an IRS with camber gain in the rear handles better than a solid axle with no camber gain. The camber gain compensates at least partly for the tendency of the tire to want to roll under and reduce the contact patch. The body roll tends to cancel that camber gain, and that's why anti-sway bars are important for good handling.
I don't know Cnut, but it has been an interesting discussion, and has made me think of a few things I hadn't considered like the effect wheel width has on track width regardless of tire size. I checked the front of my C4 that has some temporary 7 in wide zero offset wheels on it, and it also has an outside width of 68 inches, but the track width is 61 inches. So, that has me re-thinking my wheel width choices, since that has a direct impact on track width for any given tire size. In my case if I go with a 255/45-18 tire that has a rim width range of 8-9.5 inches I think it would work better with the 8 in wheel versus the 9.5. Maintaining an overall width of 68 inches, the track width would be 60 inches with an 8 inch wheel. With a 9.5 in wheel the track width would decrease to 58.5 inches with the same width tire. I never really thought about it that way before. So, without testing, it will be a compromise, or lucky guess. Running the stickiest tire you can get is another piece of the puzzle, along with the most important part...the driver.
Sway bars are a completely different discussion, since they increase spring rate and load the outboard tire too.

[chevynut]

You need to quit getting hung up on track width alone imo. What does a car "flip" around? It's the outside of the outside tire. The best performance is going to be with the stickiest rubber on the widest tire with the tire edge pushed out as far as you can go. That's really what you did on your Camaro. We have to work within the confines of the body too, unless you're willing to cut it up which most guys aren't. Track width is just another measurement, but where the tire actually contacts the road is what matters.

[55 Rescue Dog]

You need to quit getting hung up on track width alone imo. What does a car "flip" around? It's the outside of the outside tire. The best performance is going to be with the stickiest rubber on the widest tire with the tire edge pushed out as far as you can go. That's really what you did on your Camaro. We have to work within the confines of the body too, unless you're willing to cut it up which most guys aren't. Track width is just another measurement, but where the tire actually contacts the road is what matters.
I could have used a little more track width on my VW GTI at an autocross when I had both inside tires 3 feet in the air. I somehow managed to save it, but it sure got my attention. And my point was that within the confines of the body, the wheel width affects track width regardless of tire size, and it wouldn't matter if the tire was 2 feet wide if it totally unloads the inside tire off the ground and over you go.
In my case I had way too much grip on skinny 185/60-14 DOT autocross tires. I understand how tires look is important, but from the side view they all look the same width to me.

[BamaNomad]

A lot of people would say that a 'narrow' car, with obviously narrower track width, has an advantage in an autocross (at least most of them I've seen which seem to be set up for narrow/small Euro cars)... :) I know that the big butt C4 Corvettes (ZR1s) are at a disadvantage regardless of the wider track width! :)

[55 Rescue Dog]

Troy, your argument would suggest that a drag car would run better on narrower rear tires which we know isn't true. Looking at if from a purely physics point of view, friction force is simply the coefficient of friction between the two surfaces multiplied by the normal force (downward loading). Area doesn't factor into it so pounds per square inch of loading is irrelevant. There's more going on there than the simple physics would suggest, and we know empirically that larger tires (with less PSI) have better traction.
Why do narrow tires work better in snow and rain???

[NickP]

OK! Who's got the popcorn? Cheetos?

[Custer55]

Why do narrow tires work better in snow and rain???

My 4 wheel drive GMC has 265 wide tires so there not that narrow. Tread pattern probably has more to do with it than width.

[chevynut]

Why do narrow tires work better in snow and rain???

Why don't you explain it? Do you autocross in snow and rain?

[markm]

My 4 wheel drive GMC has 265 wide tires so there not that narrow. Tread pattern probably has more to do with it than width.

I pushed snow professionally for 20 years I have two 1987 GMC 4x4s with same Kelly Tires, both positrack . One truck had 31 x 10.50s on 8 inch rallys the other 30 x 9.50 on 7 inch rallys. Care to guess which one got around the best in snow and Ice.

[Custer55]

I pushed snow professionally for 20 years I have two 1987 GMC 4x4s with same Kelly Tires, both positrack . One truck had 31 x 10.50s on 8 inch rallys the other 30 x 9.50 on 7 inch rallys. Care to guess which one got around the best in snow and Ice.

Actually I don't really care. My 265's work fine plowing my driveway.

[55 Rescue Dog]

Why don't you explain it? Do you autocross in snow and rain?
As a matter of fact I have autocrossed many time in the rain, and even in the snow. Every time it snows I have a blast driving, until the snowplow ruin all the fun. I have been running winter tires on my vehicles for 22 years, and on all my families 4 other vehicles. I always downsize to the narrowest recommended size which shouldn't even need to be explained. Check the tirerack site.

[chevynut]

Actually I don't really care. My 265's work fine plowing my driveway.

I didn't know there were "snow plowing professionals". LOL!

[chevynut]

Wide tires with rain grooves and/or siping work pretty well in rain. Slicks or worn out tires would just hydroplane because there's no place for the water to go. It's all about getting the water away from the treads so they can contact the road. In snow, wide tires tend to "plow" snow in front of them if it's deep enough keeping the vehicle from making forward progress. Narrow tires don't push the snow in front of them as much, and pack it for better traction. Snow plows move the snow away from the tires so it's not the same thing.

I thought everyone knew that. :p

[markm]

I didn't know there were "snow plowing professionals". LOL!

Then what do you call it smart ass when you contract with banks, hospitals and governmental etc. for services. Its a lot moor complicated than cleaning a driveway.

"Snow plows move the snow away from the tires so it's not the same thing. "

That works well unless its a packed lot or what about getting there. I used to have some wild rides getting to town busting drifts.

[chevynut]

Then what do you call it smart ass when you contract with banks, hospitals and governmental etc. for services. Its a lot moor complicated than cleaning a driveway.

pro·fes·sion
prəˈfeSHən/
noun
noun: profession; plural noun: professions
1.
a paid occupation, especially one that involves prolonged training and a formal qualification.



How many years of "college" did it take to get your "snow-plowing diploma"? :D

I contract with Waste Management so I guess according to you they're garbage picker-upper "professionals". :p

[Custer55]

I did a small project last week. I bought a couple of longer 10" bolts (1/2 grade 8) from Fastenal to lower the back of my 55 an inch or so. Pretty simple project to just replace the stock 9" long bolts that tie the spring to the rear hub carriers to lower the rear of the car. Also got some repro center caps for the Corvette wheels to finish them off.

First picture is how my car sat before I did the C4 frame conversion.
https://www.trifive.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=6824&pictureid=67998

This picture is before I started the frame I set my car on blocks at the ride height I was shooting for.
https://www.trifive.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=6824&pictureid=67999

This is from a few weeks ago with my new tires, before lowering the rear end and no center caps yet.
https://www.trifive.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=6824&pictureid=67787

A few shots today lowered in the rear and the new center caps installed.
https://www.trifive.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=6824&pictureid=67996
https://www.trifive.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=6824&pictureid=67995
In the end I think it ended pretty close to what I was going for. https://www.trifive.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif
Brian

[BamaNomad]

The car and stance looks great, Brian... but I'm also interested in how your car runs/drives, esp with the 9.5" front wheels... :)

[NickP]

The car and stance looks great, Brian... but I'm also interested in how your car runs/drives, esp with the 9.5" front wheels... :)
12 hour drive but might be worth your time. Road trip!

[chevynut]

Hey Brian, how do your rear halfshafts sit now? Are they level? Car looks great.

[Custer55]

The car and stance looks great, Brian... but I'm also interested in how your car runs/drives, esp with the 9.5" front wheels... :)

It drives great. Everything feels tight and stable and tracks nice and straight
down the road. The steering is super quick compared to stock although that takes
a little bit to get used to. Handling wise I don't think it's quite as good as a
Corvette (but it's pretty close) because the center a gravity is higher. I would
say it rides smoother that a Corvette though because of the longer wheelbase.
You still feel like you are driving a Classic Chevy, (because you don't sit as
low in the seat as a Corvette), just a Classic Chevy that handles way way
better. I am very happy with the results and would do it again for sure. I have no problem with the 9 1/2" wheels on the front but would probably go with a 9" wheel on the front if I was buying a new set as the 9 1/2" wheel is the max. width for my 255/40/17 tires.

[Custer55]

Hey Brian, how do your rear halfshafts sit now? Are they level? Car looks great.

Thanks, I think the halfshafts are close to level with the longer bolts. I know they point down a bit the outside at stock ride height on our Corvette

[Custer55]

12 hour drive but might be worth your time. Road trip!

Summer is a great time to come to Wisconsin!!! Car show season is just getting started :cool:

[Recycled Rumor]

Agreed, I grew up just south of eau Claire, I live in Rochester now.

[BamaNomad]

It drives great. Everything feels tight and stable and tracks nice and straight
down the road. The steering is super quick compared to stock although that takes
a little bit to get used to. Handling wise I don't think it's quite as good as a
Corvette (but it's pretty close) because the center a gravity is higher. I would
say it rides smoother that a Corvette though because of the longer wheelbase.
You still feel like you are driving a Classic Chevy, (because you don't sit as
low in the seat as a Corvette), just a Classic Chevy that handles way way
better. I am very happy with the results and would do it again for sure. I have no problem with the 9 1/2" wheels on the front but would probably go with a 9" wheel on the front if I was buying a new set as the 9 1/2" wheel is the max. width for my 255/40/17 tires.

I appreciate your comments Brian! your thoughts mirror my own driving impressions when I drove Billy Dawson's '55 sedan on his chassis.. a great ride.. :)

One set of wheels I'm looking at that appears they might work are the Hurst Dazzlers: on the Rear with 17x9 with 45 mm offset; they also have 17x8 with 19 mm OS for the front. They minimally meet the requirements using CN's wheel calculators.

ie. 225-45/17 on the 17x8 wheels in front (19 mm OS) and
255-40/17 on the 17x9 wheels in back (45 mm OS)...

With the gold emblem accents on a '57 BelAir, do you think the gold Hurst Dazzlers would look OK? What do you guys think?
7115

[chevynut]

They minimally meet the requirements using CN's wheel calculators.

ie. 225-45/17 on the 17x8 wheels in front (19 mm OS) and
255-40/17 on the 17x9 wheels in back (45 mm OS)...


I guess I don't see how you figure the 19mm offset wheels will work in front. The front mounting surfaces are 62" wide so the outside of 225 tires would be at 69.35". I think that's too wide and they will rub, imo. You need something closer to 36mm offset or more.

[BamaNomad]

CN: You are right... It was probably *wishful thinking* on my part..

The calculator gives a warning that the tires might hit on turns...

If I use the 9" wide wheels on front (45 mm OS), the warning goes away, but I'd also have to go to 235-45-17 tires to use the 9" wide wheels... What do you think about using the 17x9 +45 wheels all the way around with different size tires on the front and rear??

[Custer55]

CN: You are right... It was probably *wishful thinking* on my part..

The calculator gives a warning that the tires might hit on turns...

If I use the 9" wide wheels on front (45 mm OS), the warning goes away, but I'd also have to go to 235-45-17 tires to use the 9" wide wheels... What do you think about using the 17x9 +45 wheels all the way around with different size tires on the front and rear??

As long as the rim width is within the range for the tire you are using it should be fine. That is what I did with mine. 275's are the recommended tire size for 9 1/2" rims, and I went with 285's on the back and 255's in the front. The rims you are looking at look nice on the 57 Nomad picture you posted.
Brian

[chevynut]

Like I said before, I personally think the tire section width should be slightly wider than the wheel width or it starts to look weird. Sure, you can mount them but who wants the wheel sticking out past the tire (unless you're going to "jump" the car...lol)? Maybe you can't see the width difference until it's more severe, like a 225 on a 10.5" wheel. :)

A 9.5" wide wheel is actually 10.5" outside the lips. To me, that requires at least a 265 tire regardless of what will "fit" on it. A 275 is a good fit but it's also barely wider than the wheel. Maybe you couldn't see the difference with your eyes, only with a tape measure ;). I have 295s (12") on 10.5" wheels in the rear.

So even though a 235 will technically "fit" on a 9" wheel, I think a 245 is a better fit. It depends on whether the wheel being wider than the tire bothers you or not. A 235 is nominally 9.25' wide so that's 3/4" narrower than the wheel. I don't know where it starts to become visible.

I believe Newman used to recommend a 245 tires on 9.5" wheels, making the tire almost 1" narrower than the wheel and they "worked". My 245s are just barely under 10" wide and they're on an 8.5" wheel. If I go custom wheels in front they will likely be 8" if I stick with a 245.

If I'm not mistaken the calculator "warning" is set at 67.5" which is what I typically recommend with a dropped car and a stock suspension/steering. I don't think I'm being too conservative because I've looked at a lot of scenarios where tires DO rub and the 67.5" limit is close on a dropped car with a stock suspension. Keep in mind a stock steering box turns the wheels further than a C4 steering rack, and the SAI is different. I measured my Nomad recently and my tires are actually right at 68" outside (they're wider than a nominal 245) and they still don't rub using my late C4 suspension that has not been aligned. But I know I couldn't go much wider or they would, at least at full lock while the suspension is fully compressed (which CAN happen).

So this all depends on the look you want, how low the front of your car is, what year it is, and how much risk of rubbing you want to take (I want zero). If you never turn into a bump at full lock, you can get away with a larger overall tire width. Brian has demonstrated that a 275 tire on a 56mm offset wheel works on his car but it's a 55 (taller fender opening than a 56 or 57) and he may not have hit the worst-case condition while driving it. That's about a 68.6" overall width.

[chevynut]

It kind of cracks me up reading on the other site where a guy said the calculator is good for "getting you close", but he did some careful measuring on his car and with the right offset he made a 275 tire fit under the rear of his car. He used a zero offset rear wheel. The calculator is the tool you use AFTER you do some careful measuring, and it would have given him the same result. Math is math, and with the right inputs the calculator gives you the right output.

[Custer55]

Hey Brian, how do your rear halfshafts sit now? Are they level? Car looks great.

I crawled under my car last night and put a torpedo level on the half shafts and they point slightly up to the outside with the 1" longer bolts. There sure isn't much room to get under there though even for me at 165 pounds!!! need a 4 post lift!! That makes sense that if they are slightly down with the stock bolts they would be slightly up with 1" longer bolts.
Brian

[chevynut]

Thanks Brian, that doesn't surprise me. The only way to get the halfshafts pointed down at that ride height would have been to raise the batwing. If I was to do it again I would have narrowed my batwing and put it inside the frame and a little higher than it is. That would have allowed me to lower the rear another inch or so.

[chevynut]

Brian, how do you think your 10" front tires look on a wheel with a 10.5" outside width? Is the width difference noticeable? I've seen some wide wheels with skinny tires and it looks horrendous imo. As the sidewall gets shorter, the width difference is more important.

I personally think these tires are too narrow for the wheels....at least it looks that way in this pic, aside from the offset being wrong, imo.


http://speednik.com/files/2014/04/bscamaro-640x426.jpg

[Custer55]

Thanks Brian, that doesn't surprise me. The only way to get the halfshafts pointed down at that ride height would have been to raise the batwing. If I was to do it again I would have narrowed my batwing and put it inside the frame and a little higher than it is. That would have allowed me to lower the rear another inch or so.

Yep, I considered notching the frame a bit to get the batwing up more when I set mine up. I had to cut the floor pan a bit for dog bone mount clearance the way it is so I decided not to do that as it would have required wheel well mods or mini tubs as well to be able to remove the upper dog bone bolt with the body on the frame. Might be a better way to go if you want the car really low in the back though. I think where I ended up is pretty close to how you do yours.
Brian

[Custer55]

Brian, how do you think your 10" front tires look on a wheel with a 10.5" outside width? Is the width difference noticeable? I've seen some wide wheels with skinny tires and it looks horrendous imo. As the sidewall gets shorter, the width difference is more important.

I personally think these tires are too narrow for the wheels....at least it looks that way in this pic, aside from the offset being wrong, imo.


http://speednik.com/files/2014/04/bscamaro-640x426.jpg

I think they look ok. The section width of the tire is just slightly wider that the wheel. They would be better on an 8 1/2" or 9" wheel. Once custom wheels are in the budget that's what I will most likely go with on the front. :cool:

[55 Rescue Dog]

Sometimes going narrower on the wheel width can be beneficial. For one it gives you a little more leeway on the offset, and track width with a deeper dish. 8 to 8 1/2 inch wide wheel with a 255 wide tire front and rear is the direction I'm gonna go. Most 255 series tires have plenty load range of weight capacity which is important. The 94-96 4200 pound Impala SS's on the same 116 inch wheelbase running a 255/50-17 Z speed on a 8 1/2 in wheel, 100 load index, 27 inch diameter tire, were an awesome handling cars hands down. Still one of the best full-sized RWD cars ever built!

[BamaNomad]

I was thinking that the gold "Hurst" Wheels would work and look OK too, but I've found out with more checking taht they do not work (using any of their stock sizing); Vision wheels recommended that I'd have to go to a 'custom offset' wheel (which I don't want to pay for, and I don't really like any of the two piece wheels I've seen)...

This afternoon I found on ebay a set of Cadillac CTS wheels (17x8 +41mm OS) which *might* work if the 66.9 hub size doesn't pose an issue (and I haven't even looked at that!).. Do you fellas know/think that might pose an issue on my C4 wheel hubs? Otherwise, putting those specs in seems to satisfy CN's wheel calculators (unless I screwed up again).. :) I'm about to go crazy trying to find wheels that will work...

If these 17x8 wheels will work on the chassis/body, then with 245-45/17 tires all the way around I would have lots of options for tires (and reasonably priced)...

If I wanted (or needed) to go wider, this 17x9 +45 ARE wheel seems to work also,

http://www.ebay.com/itm/American-Racing-Custom-Wheels-AR105-Torq-Thrust-M-Anthracite-Wheel-With-Machined-/391512076325?hash=item5b27f03025:g:OCkAAOSwRgJXj8U g&vxp=mtr

If this 9" wheel works, then I'd think any 17x7 or 17x8 wheel with 41-45 mm OS (if I can find one) would also work? I'd rather stay in the 7.5 to 8 inch width range if possible with a nice looking 5 spoke wheel...

[Custer55]

I was thinking that the gold "Hurst" Wheels would work and look OK too, but I've found out with more checking taht they do not work (using any of their stock sizing); Vision wheels recommended that I'd have to go to a 'custom offset' wheel (which I don't want to pay for, and I don't really like any of the two piece wheels I've seen)...

This afternoon I found on ebay a set of Cadillac CTS wheels (17x8 +41mm OS) which *might* work if the 66.9 hub size doesn't pose an issue (and I haven't even looked at that!).. Do you fellas know/think that might pose an issue on my C4 wheel hubs? Otherwise, putting those specs in seems to satisfy CN's wheel calculators (unless I screwed up again).. :) I'm about to go crazy trying to find wheels that will work...

If these 17x8 wheels will work on the chassis/body, then with 245-45/17 tires all the way around I would have lots of options for tires (and reasonably priced)...

If I wanted (or needed) to go wider, this 17x9 +45 ARE wheel seems to work also,

http://www.ebay.com/itm/American-Racing-Custom-Wheels-AR105-Torq-Thrust-M-Anthracite-Wheel-With-Machined-/391512076325?hash=item5b27f03025:g:OCkAAOSwRgJXj8U g&vxp=mtr

If this 9" wheel works, then I'd think any 17x7 or 17x8 wheel with 41-45 mm OS (if I can find one) would also work? I'd rather stay in the 7.5 to 8 inch width range if possible with a nice looking 5 spoke wheel...

I think the C4 hub diameter is 70.3mm so the CTS wheels would probably not work. Not sure about the bolt circle size on a CTS either. If you know some one who has a mid 90's Camaro or Firebird wheel it is a good wheel to check clearances with. My 95 Trans Am are 16 x 8 with a 55mm offset. Tires are 245/50/16, about 25.5 or so dia. They will clear the Corvette 12" dia. brakes, so you can bolt them on and use spacers to simulate the wheel width and offset you are considering to check clearances. I'd let you borrow mine if we weren't 12 plus hours apart.
Brian

[BamaNomad]

I've got the 13" brakes on my chassis, so 17" wheels mininum are required.

The CTS wheels have a stated lug pattern of 5 on 120mm which should work, or should I be concerned about the 0.65 mm difference between it and 4-3/4??

[chevynut]

Bamanomad, it looks like AR has exactly what you need, 17x7.5" with 45mm offset in the Torque Thrust M wheel but they don't have the right bolt pattern for some reason. It seems weird to me that they wouldn't offer that wheel with the Chevy pattern but they do in a 7" and 8" wheel with different offset. Maybe a call to them would help...perhaps they can easily do it, but they just don't list them. IMO that wheel would work well with a 225 or 235 tire in front.

They also have a 17x8 with 30mm offset but with the wrong bolt pattern that would give you a 68.49" overall width with a 225 tire. That's about where Brian was with his 275s that worked on his car but it depends on how low your car is in front.

The 17x9 with 45mm offset and a 255 tire should work in the rear too.

http://www.americanracing.com/wheelSpecs/2016/254/4421/ar105m-torq-thrust-m

[BamaNomad]

Yes, CN.. I found that wheel also and noticed that they didn't list it for the needed bolt pattern; I am planning trying to call them today and find out if they can/will do it for 4-3/4" lug pattern.

I called Billy Dawson at Corvette Corrections to find out which wheels he's using... 18x8.5 +56mm all the way around. I ran these numbers thru your calculators, and they 'work' without warnings, but they sit farther to the inside than I would prefer (larger differences to the fenders than necessary). Apparently these are the C7 Corvette specifications (2015 or so), so that should generate some more options..?

[chevynut]

If the tires sit too far inboard for your liking you can always use wheel spacers. Outboard is more of a problem. I agree that the 56mm offset is a bit too much.

Also keep in mind that if push comes to shove you could always change to the early suspensions that are 1" narrower and require less offset. :)

To tell the truth after spending all the money on the frame and body, if it was me I would pony up the money and get the 2-piece wheels you want with the correct custom offset. ;)

[55 Rescue Dog]

American racing has many more options from their custom shop. Sure it's a little more money for a better fit, and they can custom make many more offsets and bolt patterns that are not available in their retail line. A torque thrust looking wheel is hard to beat for a hot rod look!

[55 Rescue Dog]

American has other styles, but here is a couple of blanks from the custom shop, that just needs the bolt pattern drilled. 17x8 +38mm and 17x9 +48.
http://www.wheelpros.com/wheelSpecs/2455/2209/5450/vn405-custom-torq-thrust-ii

[BamaNomad]

Today I removed the ZR1 rear wheels (17x11x36mm) and installed another pair of ZR1 fronts I had (17x9.5x56mm) so (hopefully) this will let me proceed and put the body on the chassis so I can get a better feel for what I really want to buy to run on the car... just needing 'roll-around' capability for awhile.. :)

CN: I agree.. before I compromise too much on wheel size/BSP/etc.. I will consider custom wheels, and I've got some time to find a source and identify what I want..

Thanks to everyone for your comments and suggestions esp to Brian with the information that the 9.5 C4 wheels will 'work' all the way around.. :)

[Custer55]

American has other styles, but here is a couple of blanks from the custom shop, that just needs the bolt pattern drilled. 17x8 +38mm and 17x9 +48.
http://www.wheelpros.com/wheelSpecs/2455/2209/5450/vn405-custom-torq-thrust-ii

Looks like they can make a set that would work well. I saw they have a 9.5 x 17 +52mm that would be good for the rear. Also some 9.5 x 18 and 10 x 18 that would work for the rear. Around $1,800 to $1,900 for a set but they would look nice on a tri-five.

[55 Rescue Dog]

Looks like they can make a set that would work well. I saw they have a 9.5 x 17 +52mm that would be good for the rear. Also some 9.5 x 18 and 10 x 18 that would work for the rear. Around $1,800 to $1,900 for a set but they would look nice on a tri-five.
Yeah I know they are not cheap, but if they fit and look the part it's worth it. Just make sure you don't pick the wrong size and have a do over.
Unless I can come up with something better I'm going to try and fit 18 x 8 inches wheels with 255/45-18 tires front/rear. Mostly because there are many more tires to pick from in that size. Seems like whenever I find a size tire I might try, then either nobody makes it, or there are only 2 brands of tires to pick from. Just checked tirerack and they have 55 tires to pick from in 255/45-18 and only 2 tires in a 255/50-17

[rockytopper R.I.P 5-13-2017]

Take a look at new Camaro or Charger before you buy. The torque thrust wheels are convex looking with the deep off sets require to fit. They loose a bit of there appeal IMO.

[chevynut]

FRONT
offset: 32mm Backspacing: 6.06" Bolt Pattern: 5-120
20x8.5
245/45 R20


REAR
Offset: 34mm Backspacing: 6.88" Bolt Pattern: 5-120
20x10
275/42 R20




http://www.moderncamaro.com/forum/attachments/classifieds-sale-wanted/9960d1304292981-camaro-20-american-racing-torque-thrust-m-wheels-tires-wheelss.jpg

http://www.moderncamaro.com/forum/attachments/classifieds-sale-wanted/9959d1304292969-camaro-20-american-racing-torque-thrust-m-wheels-tires-wheelsss.jpg

http://www.moderncamaro.com/forum/attachments/classifieds-sale-wanted/9958d1304292961-camaro-20-american-racing-torque-thrust-m-wheels-tires-wheelllss.jpg

[chevynut]

8.5 front and 10" width on rears.
+18mm offset on front and rear.
245/40's on front, 295/35's on rear.



http://www.challengertalk.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=38159&amp;d=1318172752

[55 Rescue Dog]

I'd settle for something like this shown on a C4. It might not show up in the link, but it's the VNB425

http://my.wheelpros.com/browse-wheels.cfm

[BamaNomad]

Here's a couple of photos of the rear of the Corvette Corrections Chassis after I installed the 'ZR1 front wheels/tires' (17x9.5 - 275-40) on the rear; these tires clear the rear chassis by ~3/8" and should fit in the rear of the Nomad wheelwell just fine, but I'm a little concerned about the 275-40's in the front?

I'm also providing a photo of the 'narrowed' wishbone which Billy uses in his chassis which gives him a little bit more freedom of component placement and I think allows the body to be lower?

[chevynut]

The ZR1 front wheels with 56mm offset and 275 tires should work fine in the rear. I calculate the tire to tub clearance at about 5/8" which should work fine. I just put some spacers on a chassis in the shop with an early rear suspension and the same wheels and tires because they rubbed the tubs on both sides. They're also just for rolling the car around. In front they should work fine too, as Brian has found out on his 55.

I didn't notice that CC cut the batwing down and mounted it differently. I don't see any rubber cushions there so it may increase the NVH trasmission to the frame but it looks like it's mounted solidly and the pinion support looks similar to mine except without any flexible mounting...I use a urethane bushing.

What is that structure that goes under the differential for?

Cutting the batwing down should allow it to be placed further up in the frame, with the potential to lower the car more. However, that all depends on other constraints. Once the batwing is free to be moved upward, the limiter becomes the frame rail height directly above the halfshafts. If those are 2x4 frame members above the halfshafts, you have a little less room than a stock frame provides.

The top dogbones should be level or even slightly high at the front end at ride height. The dogbone position then dictates where the knuckle sits.
Looking at the position of the front ends of your top dogbones relative to the body mount on the front of the frame hump, I would say my dogbones are positioned higher than yours (see pics below). In fact, on my chassis you usually have to make a small pocket in the floor for the top of the dogbones (same with Newman's and some others). If you move the front of the dogbones down, you affect the anti-squat characteristics of the suspension. The only other way to prevent that is to put the rearend lower in the frame, which raises the rear of the car.

7163

7164

7165

[55 Rescue Dog]

Here's a couple of photos of the rear of the Corvette Corrections Chassis after I installed the 'ZR1 front wheels/tires' (17x9.5 - 275-40) on the rear; these tires clear the rear chassis by ~3/8" and should fit in the rear of the Nomad wheelwell just fine, but I'm a little concerned about the 275-40's in the front?

I'm also providing a photo of the 'narrowed' wishbone which Billy uses in his chassis which gives him a little bit more freedom of component placement and I think allows the body to be lower?
It is a very interesting design, and looks like it could work great. NVH from a differential should be butter smooth anyway.

[BamaNomad]

I went out and took a couple more photos underneath the differential to show how that frame member works. It actually ties into the bottom of the differential where the rear spring supports are, and supports the front of the pinion from the bottom as well as from the top.

Initially I had the same concern as CN re vibrations (from eliminating the rubber isolation), but driving Billy's car I felt nothing like that... It's hardmounted in 5 or 6 locations to the frame members, so if it 'vibrates'... it would have to vibrate the entire chassis..

[chevynut]

That's a pretty interesting design Bamanomad, if not significantly overkill. Seems like GM put rubber bushings in the ends of the batwing for a reason. It's not hard-mounted to the frame on a C4 Corvette. Even the C3 Corvettes had the differential isolated from the frame by rubber cushions, as do the Vipers and most other IRS cars that I know of. It may work just fine though. ;)

[BamaNomad]

It's not my design; it's Billy Dawson's at Corvette corrections. He's sold well over 100 of them for C1 Corvettes and around 25 for Classic Chevys (as of about a year ago), and he was doing between 2 and 3 a week at that time. I DO understand your concern, as I currently own 5 Corvettes (2 C3s, 2 C4s, and a C1) and as I said earlier, I had the same concern over the 'hardmounted' design... until I drove his '55 sedan... :)

If you want to know any details about his design, call him... I'm sure he would talk to you even if he knew you were a competitor.. :)

[chevynut]

Bamanomad, if he's doing 2-3 a week I'm not a competitor. ;) This is just kind of a "hobby" for me since I only do it part time. When we work steady, I work maybe 10 hours a week. We have 4 projects lined up right now and I'm telling guys I'm booked until October now. I don't plan to do much from September through January since I plan to hunt a lot. :)

[NickP]

It's not my design; it's Billy Dawson's at Corvette corrections. He's sold well over 100 of them for C1 Corvettes and around 25 for Classic Chevys (as of about a year ago), and he was doing between 2 and 3 a week at that time. I DO understand your concern, as I currently own 5 Corvettes (2 C3s, 2 C4s, and a C1) and as I said earlier, I had the same concern over the 'hardmounted' design... until I drove his '55 sedan... :)

If you want to know any details about his design, call him... I'm sure he would talk to you even if he knew you were a competitor.. :)

Cool stuff there Bama. You mentioned you had driven a unit with this in place, can you expand your comment with some real world feedback? First, did you drive it more than one or two blocks? Highway time? Noise? Grip? Corner?

[BamaNomad]

I'd been talking to Billy for several years; initially planning to buy one of his chassis for a '60 Corvette I have, but he had his '55 sedan at the 2015 TriFive nats, and he *insisted* I drive it... We took it out of Beech Bend, and around thru to the south side of Bowling Green; total driving time of 30-40 minutes or so. It drove great, rode quietly but firmly, turned and cornered like it was on rails... in summary, I told him it drove/rode like a new car (better than MOST new cars!).. total experience was better than any trifive or custom/modified car I'd ever driven. In terms of driving 'feel', it handled / steered much like my 1990 ZR1 (I have 3 of them over the past 20 yrs, ranging from 18K to 35K miles), so I'm not comparing it to a worn out car. His car has the LS3/430 hp eng with 4L60E trans (new from Chevy) so it ran great also... see images...

[55 Rescue Dog]

Thanks BMAD. Those are great pics of what looks like a great set-up, and the ride height, stance, and wheel/tires look spot on. A better fresh air intake would be consideration though. Would love to know what traverse spring rates he's using?

[chevynut]

Nice 55 Bamanomad. Looks like he did a great job on it. Do you know what those wheels are off of and what size?? A C6?? They work well on the car. Looks like he's using the ABS Power Brake booster. How did you like the brakes, if you member?

[55 Rescue Dog]

Or does it have manual brakes, which is the direction I'm headed for simplicity, and less weight. A good manual set-up can't be beat for feedback.

[chevynut]

http://www.abspowerbrake.com/images/FINAL117_gral_boosters.jpg

[rockytopper R.I.P 5-13-2017]

Nice!!! I also like the wheels. If I was to be negative about anything why route the a/c hoses behind the fender you hide maybe 6 inches of hose vs routing it out the stock location.

[BamaNomad]

He uses the stock transverse monoleaf fiberglass springs front and rear.
PS. Since my chassis is going under a Nomad, I asked for the 'heavier' rear spring... but I haven't checked the spring code (but I'm making myself a note to do so)..

[BamaNomad]

Nice 55 Bamanomad. Looks like he did a great job on it. Do you know what those wheels are off of and what size?? A C6?? They work well on the car. Looks like he's using the ABS Power Brake booster. How did you like the brakes, if you member?

He's using a remote 'boost' unit for the MC.. IIRC, it's a Electroboost unit located under the body. The brakes worked great... very responsive... IIRC, the first couple of times I used the brakes, I had to learn NOT to brake too hard.. :)

The wheels are 18x8.5 +56mm and I believe these are the same as the front wheels on a C6. I think he gets his wheels from 'Factory Reproductions'...

[BamaNomad]

Or does it have manual brakes, which is the direction I'm headed for simplicity, and less weight. A good manual set-up can't be beat for feedback.

As stated in the previous response, he uses a electro-boost unit, but I'm personally considering using a manual MC... I'm assuming if I don't like the effort required, that I'll be able to add a boost unit later...

[BamaNomad]

Nice!!! I also like the wheels. If I was to be negative about anything why route the a/c hoses behind the fender you hide maybe 6 inches of hose vs routing it out the stock location.

I don't know the answer to that Rocky; but maybe to eliminate the need for the 'visible' firewall punctures and the clamps on the inner fenders to hold the hoses in place??

PS. i said earlier that he puts the 4L60E in his cars, but that's incorrect.. He uses the newer 4L70E as purchased from GM for the cars he builds turnkey.

[chevynut]

As stated in the previous response, he uses a electro-boost unit,

It's the ABS Power Brake High Power Master Cylinder that I posted in my prior post. It's similar to the one I have in my Nomad from the same company. Mine is the one with a remote reservoir.

http://www.abspowerbrake.com/ehpm.html

[Custer55]

Cool car for sure. Definitely the right colors!!! Looks like he raised up the rear wheel openings as well to make rear tire removal and replacement easier. That is something I would consider doing when I take mine back apart to do a nicer paint job on the frame and repaint the body. I painted mine in 1988 so it's about due for a repaint.

[BamaNomad]

Cool car for sure. Definitely the right colors!!! Looks like he raised up the rear wheel openings as well to make rear tire removal and replacement easier. That is something I would consider doing when I take mine back apart to do a nicer paint job on the frame and repaint the body. I painted mine in 1988 so it's about due for a repaint.

Brian. I owe you an apology! I 'just realized' this is your thread which I had asked some questions in, but now it looks like my questions/etc has about taken it over! If there is something I can do besides STOP asking my questions in your thread, I will be glad to do it.. :)

[Custer55]

Brian. I owe you an apology! I 'just realized' this is your thread which I had asked some questions in, but now it looks like my questions/etc has about taken it over! If there is something I can do besides STOP asking my questions in your thread, I will be glad to do it.. :)

Don't worry about it. Not a big deal to me at all!! :cool:

[55 Rescue Dog]

I didn't really see it at first, but I really like the raised rear wheel openings as a alternative to the radius ones. I will be keeping the old rear openings off my original quarters for sure, if the body shop ever gets started installing the new quarter panels, after over 3 months of collecting dust. I currently have Billy Dawson's 55 as my background picture for a while.

[Custer55]

I decided it was time to repaint my roof to get rid of the peeling paint. I had repainted the white on the quarter panels and trunk back in 2005 but left the roof alone at that time as it was still in good shape back then. I painted my car originally back in 1988 with Lucite lacquer. I started having peeling issues in the mid 90's due to not using etch or epoxy primer over the bare metal. I didn't know any better back then and used lacquer primer over the bare metal after a metal prep treatment. https://www.trifive.com/forums/images/smilies/frown.gif Funny thing is the only areas with the problem are where the car is white, the paint is in good shape yet where it is red.

https://www.trifive.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=6824&pictureid=68525
This is what the roof looked like after blowing over it with the air hose.

https://www.trifive.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=6824&pictureid=68527
Back glass window trim removed.

https://www.trifive.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=6824&pictureid=68531
I used a razor blade scraper to remove the white topcoat.

https://www.trifive.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=6824&pictureid=68529
This is what it looked like after scraping off the white top coat. The weird looking areas of the primer is pretty much where the paint was falling off.

https://www.trifive.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=6824&pictureid=68532
The primer that was left behind I sanded off with a DA sander and 80 grit paper. I left a bit of the white at the windshield mldg since I didn't want to remove the windshield to get the mldgs off.

https://www.trifive.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=6824&pictureid=68534
The first coat of paint over the metal this time is House Of Kolor KD 3000 epoxy primer. 2 coats at medium build mix.

https://www.trifive.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=6824&pictureid=68536
After a light sanding ready for a couple of coats of feather fil G2

https://www.trifive.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=6824&pictureid=68538
After a good block sanding of the feather fil.

https://www.trifive.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=6824&pictureid=68539
All ready for sealer and top coat at this point, but that's when Murphy's law showed up. I planed to spay on a coat of House of Kolor as a sealer and then top coat but that didn't go to well. It as a cooler night, about 60 degrees in the shop and I probably should have used the 1.4 mm needle and seat vs the 1.8 mm that was in the gun for the medium build and the feather fil and ended up with runs in the sealer. Then on top of that my air pressure regulator decided it was time to stop working halfway through the job. It started losing pressure after a few seconds of spraying. Turns out is was just to clogged up after 30 some years of use.

https://www.trifive.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=6824&pictureid=68541
So after sanding that mess back out I decided to use my Nason sealer before the Nason Acrylic topcoat a few nights later.

https://www.trifive.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=6824&pictureid=68545
https://www.trifive.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=6824&pictureid=68546
After a coat of sealer and 3 coats of single stage Nason Acyrlic Enamel. I used Enamel vs Urethane to match what I had done back in 2005. When I get to a point I need to repaint the red portions of the car I will most likely use the Urethane on that part of the car. The hood is getting close to needing a repaint due to all the stone chips on the front.

https://www.trifive.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=6824&pictureid=68549
https://www.trifive.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=6824&pictureid=68550
Unmasked but still needing a good cleanup.

https://www.trifive.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=6824&pictureid=68552
https://www.trifive.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=6824&pictureid=68553
Cleaned up and the rear window mldgs back in place. I still need to sand out the top with 1200 grit and finer then buff it out yet but it looks pretty good for now. I want to let the paint cure for a couple of weeks before I do that since since I sprayed 3 coats of the Nason vs the 2 coats the tech sheet states. Not bad for less than 2 weeks worth of work. I didn't want to be in paint jail to long during prime driving season!!
Brian :cool: