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View Full Version : Panicked, and ordered the Banski Motorsports trailing arms on clearance



55 Rescue Dog
10-30-2016, 03:03 PM
Although the stock dog bones I have are fine, but obsolete, I was worried the Banski adjustable C4 trailing arms might end up not being available, and go out of production too, so I ordered a set at 20% clearance price. Near as I can tell they only have 4 sets left, since I just bought one. Got the $32 boots too. There is no fuckin way I would use poly on the trailing arms. With up to 3 degrees of rotation under load they will bind, and be unpredictable, and change over time as they wear in. Maybe when Porsche, and BMW use poly I will change my mind.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/C4-Corvette-Rear-Suspension-Rod-End-Trailing-Arms-/151834813454

chevynut
10-30-2016, 07:58 PM
I suppose when you have the crappy looking 1996 fiberglass dogbones these will look better but IMO the stock aluminum non-adjustable dogbones are "best" and it would be a waste of money to change them. You might think the adjustability is nice, but it's just one more thing to align and then to go out of adjustment and wear. OH, and GM didn't use adjustable dogbones, so they can't be good :p. And once those heims wear (and they will) they're going to be clattering down the road. Ask people who use heims on suspension parts about the wear and noise.

http://www.clubcobra.com/forums/shop-talk/10768-heim-joint-noise.html

I don't know where you get 5 degrees of rotation on the dogbones. I proved to you that over a full 3" of upward travel there's about 1.6 degrees of camber gain. That's split between the two bushings so they rotate around 0.8 degrees each....AT FULL UP or down TRAVEL. 0.8 degrees is virtually nothing. Is your car really going to be bouncing up and down 6"? :D If it does, you should panic about that.

Tens of thousands of C4 Corvettes probably have poly bushed dogbones. They work just fine.

chevynut
10-30-2016, 08:31 PM
Many sourced discuss poly versus OEM rubber bushings. I know you think rubber is the "best" but most people don't. That's why just about everyone with a performance car replaces the rubber bushings with poly.

https://www.eeuroparts.com/blog/2120/how-to-shop-for-poly-bushings/

"There’s no rule, but OEM bushings generally range between 50A and 70A durometers, which is not actually too far off from the street poly bushings. The difference is that polyurethane bushings don’t weather and degrade like rubber because the chemical makeup is a synthetic polymer. Rubber is made from the sap of rubber trees, and is much more susceptible to the effects of heat, chemical contact, and age. Another main difference is that rubber twists and deforms, and polyurethane doesn’t. If you are twisting a poly bushing, expect it to tear. That’s why it’s important to always keep them lubricated."

There are pros and cons to everything. You have to decide what you're going to put up with.

55 Rescue Dog
10-31-2016, 06:33 AM
Don't know how much it will help, but the heims on these are Teflon lined. Yes, I know they can be noisy like the race shocks on my Camaro are, but everything on that car makes noise like a mechanical symphony. Are the heim joints on coil overs, camber, and toe rods, etc. quiet, or just noisy when used on dog bones? Always wondered what the best way to lube poly bushings would be without taking the suspension apart every few thousand miles?

NickP
10-31-2016, 11:54 AM
Don't know how much it will help, but the heims on these are Teflon lined. Yes, I know they can be noisy like the race shocks on my Camaro are, but everything on that car makes noise like a mechanical symphony. Are the heim joints on coil overs, camber, and toe rods, etc. quiet, or just noisy when used on dog bones? Always wondered what the best way to lube poly bushings would be without taking the suspension apart every few thousand miles?

Regardless of the fact that I'm not on your Christmas Card List, when you receive your new goodies, I would be interested to know if there is a manufacturer listed for the rubber boots. Consideration might be given to acquiring extras due to vulnerability in the open along with normal driving.

chevynut
10-31-2016, 12:13 PM
Besides the front a-arms, the dogbones are probably the WORST place to use heims on a suspension IMO. They'll transmit vibrations from every pebble and crack on the road to the frame and to the car. You can read lots of reports on this BIG tradeoff on the internet. Also, the dogbones are always under fairly heavy loading whether accelerating or braking, and that's going to cause wear. Teflon isn't very tough stuff from my experience, and it "cold flows". There's not much surface area inside those heims to absorb the thrust and I doubt there's measurable cushioning from the teflon.

For a track car they might work great as far as predictable handling, but if you were building a track car you would be concerned about the CG :eek: and power. I think you're going to hate the heims on the street....most guys do because of the vibration and noise.

Those heim "condoms" are interesting though :D. Speedway and others sell seals that fit on each side of the heim that I think look better and that's what I plan to use.

http://www.jegs.com/images/photos/500/555/555-64233_2.jpg


I used P-S-T Polygraphite bushings on my suspension rebuild and greased everything well. Most reports I've seen say they don't squeak as bad as straight poly. I guess I'll see how they work.

"One of the primary problem areas in classic muscle car suspensions is the use of rubber bushings. They were cheap to manufacture for mass production and provided isolation from road noise and vibration, but rubber has a significant trade-off – its relatively soft durometer (hardness) allows for significant deflection of the chassis components under load. The rubber bushings twist and deform as the suspension components rotate, causing premature wear and unpredictable handling. Rubber eventually dry rots when exposed to the elements and degrades in the presence of grease and oil. PST perfected polyurethane with the introduction of POLYGRAPHITEŽ - a special formula incorporating a low-friction graphite lubricant into the actual bushing material. With POLYGRAPHITEŽ, you get the near-zero deflection performance of polyurethane with a self-lubricating bushing. As an added benefit, POLYGRAPHITEŽ is impervious to grease, oil, weather, and other natural elements and will never dry rot. PST has the most complete line of POLYGRAPHITEŽ bushings available for your musclecar. Replace components as needed, or save time, money, and reap the ultimate performance benefits by installing one of our Complete POLYGRAPHITEŽ Kits on your vehicle today!"

Rick_L
10-31-2016, 01:25 PM
Depending on the exact materials used for a polyurethane bushing (or any polyurethane part), they can be susceptible to weather and just plain aging. Some polyurethane compounds will deteriorate with exposure to water. Polyether based polyurethanes are less sensitive than polyester based polyurethanes in this regard. There are also polyurethanes that are thermoplastic and others that are thermoset, with differing resistance to exposure.

That said, I am no chemist, and I don't know what compounds that are typically used by PST, Energy Suspension, and other automotive suppliers do with aging and exposure.

I do know this - I have seen things like shoe soles and dead blow hammers simply crumble with age. Also I have seen some problems with industrial applications of polyurethane. Ironically in the industry where I worked, we made many products from polyurethane, using it for water resistance and "waterproofing" as well as its toughness and elasticity. Ironically, water will win out vs. these products. It's a matter of time, product cost, and negative factors of competing materials.

I do agree about the isolation behavior of an elastomer vs. a rod end bearing.

55 Rescue Dog
10-31-2016, 02:10 PM
I can understand why a rod end on a shock without a spring can be noisy, or a dog bone when coasting without a load on it, but when loaded they should be fairly quiet. Maybe coil overs can be quiet since it has pre-load on it, but things like sway bars can rattle for sure, or anything constantly changing directions with little load.
And, as far as the Banski trailing arms being adjustable, I can't think of anything they could be adjusted for other than a slight wheelbase correction so both sides are exactly the same to square up the front, and rear in case there was any dog tracking. I'm also assuming that to set rear toe, unlike the front, it has to be done off of the centerline of the chassis since the toe rods are not linked together?

chevynut
10-31-2016, 06:03 PM
I can understand why a rod end on a shock without a spring can be noisy, or a dog bone when coasting without a load on it, but when loaded they should be fairly quiet. Maybe coil overs can be quiet since it has pre-load on it, but things like sway bars can rattle for sure, or anything constantly changing directions with little load.

Shocks are pretty much always going to be loaded, imo, unless the wheel comes off the ground. A dogbone's load alternates when accelerating or braking. Both are under forward thrust (compression) when accelerating, and the top one is under forward thrust when braking while the lower one is in tension. I assume both would be unloaded or in slight tension when coasting or downshifting. As the heims wear, I would expect the lower one to start making noise first. But even when not worn out, they will transmit a lot more vibes.


I'm also assuming that to set rear toe, unlike the front, it has to be done off of the centerline of the chassis since the toe rods are not linked together?

The front is exactly the same. To do the front toe alignment correctly the steering should be centered and each steering rod adjusted separately.

55 Rescue Dog
11-01-2016, 04:20 AM
Shocks are pretty much always going to be loaded, imo, unless the wheel comes off the ground. A dogbone's load alternates when accelerating or braking. Both are under forward thrust (compression) when accelerating, and the top one is under forward thrust when braking while the lower one is in tension. I assume both would be unloaded or in slight tension when coasting or downshifting. As the heims wear, I would expect the lower one to start making noise first. But even when not worn out, they will transmit a lot more vibes.



The front is exactly the same. To do the front toe alignment correctly the steering should be centered and each steering rod adjusted separately.
Not that it is a big deal, but the shock mounts unload in rebound on every bump trying to resist the spring. Under acceleration the top dog bone is in tension, and lower one compressed, and opposite on braking. The front toe could be set to zero with the steering wheel half turn off center, which you wouldn't want to do of course, but it would go straight down the road. But the rear could be set to zero with both wheels pointing left or right, which would make it dog track. No problem setting it up on a alignment rack, just a little more challenging to do at home without stringing the centerline of the chassis is all.

chevynut
11-01-2016, 07:05 AM
Not that it is a big deal, but the shock mounts unload in rebound on every bump trying to resist the spring.

Shocks don't resist the springs on rebound, they resist them on compression. Shocks dampen on rebound as the spring tries to push them to full length. As long as there's any upward load on the bottom of the shock, the bearings/bushings will be loaded. As long as the shock is compressed at all, the bearings will be loaded. The bearings will only become unloaded when the shock is at full extension. That is if the shock is working properly and not binding.


Under acceleration the top dog bone is in tension, and lower one compressed, and opposite on braking.

Not true. It's a floating axle stub/hub and there's no torque on the hub when accelerating. The torque reaction is carried by the batwing and pinion support. There is only torque on the hub when braking.


The front toe could be set to zero with the steering wheel half turn off center, which you wouldn't want to do of course, but it would go straight down the road. But the rear could be set to zero with both wheels pointing left or right, which would make it dog track.

And both are wrong.


No problem setting it up on a alignment rack, just a little more challenging to do at home without stringing the centerline of the chassis is all.

It wouldn't be hard to figure out a way to do it right at home. You could run a string on each side of the car from the back of the rear tire to points equal distances from the center of the car in front on some sort of horizontal beam. Of course if the body is on you'd have to put some kind of spacers on the rear tire to get the string out from the wheelwell. Then you adjust the rear toe to be the same on both sides of the rear. Once they're the same, check the toe and adjust both sides equally to get the toe in spec. You could even rig up some laser pointers to attach to the rear tire and shine on a wall or board that has the car's centerline. All you need to do is get a little creative.

55 Rescue Dog
11-01-2016, 08:34 AM
Your right on the trailing arms. I was thinking 4 link on a live axel. Yes, the torque arm/bat wing takes care of that on an IRS accelerating. Thought of that a few minutes ago but too late to edit.
But on a non-coil over shock it moves up and down if the mounts are not tight. I know because I can hear all 4 heim mounted shocks on my car rattle over the bumps, except when going slow. They go into tension on rebound gas pressurized or not.
My point on the alignment was the front the toe can be simply set with a trammel bar, but that wouldn't work on the rear is all.

Rick_L
11-01-2016, 08:51 AM
Shocks work in both directions, so the shock mounts get unloaded when the direction changes.

chevynut
11-01-2016, 09:44 AM
You are correct RD that a non-coilover will rattle because nothing is pushing the shock to full extension like a coilover does. But a coilover is different since the spring is trying to extend the shock. So the mounts are not unloaded until the coilover shock reaches full extension. Therefore, a coilover spherical bearing is always loaded in the same direction.

55 Rescue Dog
11-03-2016, 05:37 AM
The new trailing arms look like they will work great. Even if a rod end gets noisy, it will be easy to change. Not so sure about the "Seals It" boots though. They look like they will be a pain to install.
6486

55 Rescue Dog
11-03-2016, 07:15 AM
These Sealflex rod ends look like a great alternative if harshness is an issue on a heim joint.
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/sit-sf108r

NickP
11-03-2016, 09:09 AM
These Sealflex rod ends look like a great alternative if harshness is an issue on a heim joint.
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/sit-sf108r

Really, you want to open that can of worms again? A polymer product? Also, going to the manufacturers site, I don't see left hand units.

55 Rescue Dog
11-03-2016, 12:47 PM
Really, you want to open that can of worms again? A polymer product? Also, going to the manufacturers site, I don't see left hand units.
Why not? In this video Seals It talks about the history of their seals, and heim joints going back to WWII. About 6 minutes in, they talk about their flex rod ends that have the same articulation as a heim joint, but softer, designed for 4 link suspensions.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6pGLKSWCPyQ

NickP
11-03-2016, 01:07 PM
Why not? In this video Seals It talks about the history of their seals, and heim joints going back to WWII. About 6 minutes in, they talk about their flex rod ends that have the same articulation as a heim joint, but softer, designed for 4 link suspensions.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6pGLKSWCPyQ


Although the stock dog bones I have are fine, but obsolete, I was worried the Banski adjustable C4 trailing arms might end up not being available, and go out of production too, so I ordered a set at 20% clearance price. Near as I can tell they only have 4 sets left, since I just bought one. Got the $32 boots too. There is no fuckin way I would use poly on the trailing arms.

Just recall you saying this pleasant statement.

55 Rescue Dog
11-03-2016, 01:26 PM
Just recall you saying this pleasant statement.
Of course, but a 2D poly bushing is not the same thing as a 3D poly rod joint. Poly bushings are great on a-arms or suspension links that move in 2 directions, but not so good in 3 directions. After all, is has been stated that a poly bushing rotates around the inner sleeve, but in a twisting motion not so much. And, with any bushing, it all changes under load, which isn't the same as moving them up and down it the garage.

chevynut
11-03-2016, 02:09 PM
Of course, but a 2D poly bushing is not the same thing as a 3D poly rod joint.

I think you're misinterpreting what that Seals It joint is. From what I can tell it's a sleeve surrounded by rubber that's injected into the heim body. The video also says it deflects .100" with 2000 pounds of load. Not sure how they would work but it seems like you're right back to stock rubber bushings that flex too much under load and cause suspension control issues.
http://cdn3.volusion.com/5cfxm.hxrs6/v/vspfiles/photos/SIT-SF1212R-2.jpg?1414734042



Poly bushings are great on a-arms or suspension links that move in 2 directions, but not so good in 3 directions. After all, is has been stated that a poly bushing rotates around the inner sleeve, but in a twisting motion not so much. And, with any bushing, it all changes under load, which isn't the same as moving them up and down it the garage.


Poly bushings can tolerate some misalignment, something you refuse to admit. Poly isn't rigid, it's an elastomer. The C4 dogbones twist a maximum of .8 degrees at each end at full camber as I have proven to you and that's at a full 3" up/down travel. Do you not think the poly will allow .8 degrees of movement? Thousands of C4 Vette owners using poly bushings prove that it works just fine.

55 Rescue Dog
11-03-2016, 02:58 PM
I think you're misinterpreting what that Seals It joint is. From what I can tell it's a sleeve surrounded by rubber that's injected into the heim body. The video also says it deflects .100" with 2000 pounds of load. Not sure how they would work but it seems like you're right back to stock rubber bushings that flex too much under load and cause suspension control issues.
http://cdn3.volusion.com/5cfxm.hxrs6/v/vspfiles/photos/SIT-SF1212R-2.jpg?1414734042





Poly bushings can tolerate some misalignment, something you refuse to admit. Poly isn't rigid, it's an elastomer. The C4 dogbones twist a maximum of .8 degrees at each end at full camber as I have proven to you and that's at a full 3" up/down travel. Do you not think the poly will allow .8 degrees of movement? Thousands of C4 Vette owners using poly bushings prove that it works just fine.
I've read many C4 corvette forum posts that say that poly is fine, but there are just as many from people, that know better that say they cause suspension bind under load, are unpredictable, and wear out. They sloppy squishy rubber bushings on my 20 year old C5 work great, as they surely do on the C7, and BILLIONS of other cars on the real road of pavement, that are apparently missing out on the precision, and benefits of poly bushings. But WTH I think doesn't matter anyway, because I'm just plain stupid, I guess. The seals it rod ends have 20 degrees angular of motion btw.
Note " axis of rotation in this article"
http://www.elephantracing.com/techtopic/binding.htm

55 Rescue Dog
11-03-2016, 03:29 PM
It would be really impressive if any modern vehicle could do what they did 60+ years ago 5 minutes into this video! Everyone is always complaining about how bad the roads are, when it is really more about how much the cars have changed.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUtR9eb8zpw

chevynut
11-03-2016, 06:12 PM
I've read many C4 corvette forum posts that say that poly is fine, but there are just as many from people, that know better that say they cause suspension bind under load, are unpredictable, and wear out.

If you're referring to Newman's phony video that showed what they're "free action" bearings did spare me. That was as bogus as Hillary. I don't know where you get the "more binding under a load" stuff. What binds?


They sloppy squishy rubber bushings on my 20 year old C5 work great, as they surely do on the C7, and BILLIONS of other cars on the real road of pavement, that are apparently missing out on the precision, and benefits of poly bushings.

The factory uses rubber to reduce NVH and because rubber is cheap. Anyone with any sense knows that rubber is too soft and moves too much for a performance application. That's why most guys, even those with good rubber bushings change them out for poly. Poly slides, improving articulation and doesn't bind like rubber does.


But WTH I think doesn't matter anyway, because I'm just plain stupid, I guess.

Whatever. :D


The seals it rod ends have 20 degrees angular of motion btw.

Who cares how much angle they allow? Dogbones barely move sideways. The Seals It rod ends are RUBBER and they move .100" under 200 pounds of load. The rubber is bonded to the sleeve and the housing, so it's always under shear in any rotation application. They're no different than the stock rubber bushings, but they don't have as much cross-sectional area so they're weaker. I think they'd fail fairly quickly in a C4 dogbone application. But go ahead and get them.

I just went out and tried an experiment for grins and maybe to get you to understand what poly does. My dogbones are installed with polygraphite bushings and they're torqued to 100 ft-lb on the front bolts. They're firm, but I can rotate them 360 degrees with no problem. Try that with rubber :p. Also, putting a side load on the rear of the 11" upper dogbone I can push it inboard fairly easily by 3/8". That's an angle of 2 degrees and shows that they really do flex even when torqued down. There's no issue with "binding" with full suspension travel of a C4 rear. On the other hand, bonded rubber binds always and it's too soft to give good suspension control.

chevynut
11-03-2016, 06:17 PM
It would be really impressive if any modern vehicle could do what they did 60+ years ago 5 minutes into this video! Everyone is always complaining about how bad the roads are, when it is really more about how much the cars have changed.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUtR9eb8zpw

What makes you think cars nowadays can't do that?

chevynut
11-03-2016, 08:01 PM
I think some of the problems that people have with poly bushings is that they're made too wide and end up getting compressed too much under the washers or other parts on the sides of the bushings. This ends up forcing out the grease and friction increases. I personally don't call that "binding" but maybe that's what people are referring to. Different brands probably have different dimensions and tolerances, so some work better than others. The bushing should turn with the dogbone or a-arm, and the steel sleeve should rotate within the bushing. IMO the bushings should only be slightly wider than the sleeve so there's not too much preload. I don't know how much "slightly" is but ES uses these recommendations for their universal bushings:

http://energysuspension.com/universal-products/link-flange-type-bushings-universal-mounts-isolators.html

Note that if you use a 1.125" ID tube the chart shows a slight (~1/32") preload in the first two entries but the larger bushings are not preloaded for some reason. Add the tube length plus the bushing flange thickness and compare to the sleeve length. I think the assembled width of the dogbones and bushings needs to be the same width as the sleeve, or very slightly larger. The manufacturer can't control all the variables and I believe some of these get installed way too tight resulting in too much friction on moving parts. I've read where some guys have sanded the bushings down so they're not preloaded so much...probably a good idea. I use these bushings for pinion supports, but they don't move.

55 Rescue Dog
11-04-2016, 05:13 AM
What makes you think cars nowadays can't do that?
The older cars with soft suspension and tall sidewall tires rode much better than anything now with stiffer suspensions, and short sidewall tires. Sure, they handle better at the expense of the ride on rough roads is all. 10% or more of the cars I put tires on have a bent wheel running 55 series or lower tires. Never have seen a bent wheel on a 70 series truck/SUV tire, or the occasional car that might still use them. I like performance tires too, but the do not ride or work better going fast on rough roads. 30 series tires wouldn't work very good on a rally car, or desert racer, but they are still stupid fast on taller tires.

chevynut
11-04-2016, 07:28 AM
The older cars with soft suspension and tall sidewall tires rode much better than anything now with stiffer suspensions, and short sidewall tires. Sure, they handle better at the expense of the ride on rough roads is all.

I think most people will tell you that new cars handle a lot better than a stock tri5, and most people like a firmer suspension that doesn't feel like an old boat rolling and pitching on the road. If you like that soft suspension so much, why did you go with a Grand Sport C4 setup instead of the stock '55 suspension?

Apparently you don't know a 1996 FE1 Corvette has a softer suspension similar to a stock tri5? You could put standard FE1 '96 front and rear spring on your car and get almost exactly the same wheel rate as a stock tri5....even softer in the rear. Then you could add 75 series tires on your car to make it softer so you could drive on the railroad tracks. :D



10% or more of the cars I put tires on have a bent wheel running 55 series or lower tires. Never have seen a bent wheel on a 70 series truck/SUV tire, or the occasional car that might still use them. I like performance tires too, but the do not ride or work better going fast on rough roads. 30 series tires wouldn't work very good on a rally car, or desert racer, but they are still stupid fast on taller tires.

That's the price you pay for performance. And I think everyone knows you need a tall sidewall tire to go fast off-road. Tire choice depends on what you intend to use the car for. And part of it is a modern look. Today most people like the looks of a larger diameter wheel, especially on performance cars. They looks stupid, imo, on a 4WD truck and truck tires look stupid on cars.

NickP
11-04-2016, 01:05 PM
Poly bushings can tolerate some misalignment. Poly isn't rigid, it's an elastomer. The C4 dogbones twist a maximum of .8 degrees at each end at full camber and that's at a full 3" up/down travel.

I'm struggling with the .8° measurement but only so I can understand how you arrived at that figure. When I work it in AutoCAD, I obtain 1.596° @ 3" Rise (See below) The two Iron Cross looking features are the dogbones. The camber is set to 0.0° to begin with, correct?


http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL1600/2283636/23877721/412910389.jpg

chevynut
11-04-2016, 01:44 PM
Nick, the .8 degrees is the "twist" of the dogbones looking at them along the axis, not from the side. The camber changes about 1.6 degrees in 3" suspension travel as shown in your diagram above and prior calculations I did and it's absorbed by two bushings, so each bushings sees .8 degrees of offset which is mousenuts and can easily be absorbed by the poly.

55 Rescue Dog
11-04-2016, 03:40 PM
Nick, the .8 degrees is the "twist" of the dogbones looking at them along the axis, not from the side. The camber changes about 1.6 degrees in 3" suspension travel as shown in your diagram above and prior calculations I did and it's absorbed by two bushings, so each bushings sees .8 degrees of offset which is mousenuts and can easily be absorbed by the poly.
And the bending forces on the 13mm front bolt can easily handle the rest. Like a coat hanger:D

NickP
11-04-2016, 03:44 PM
Nick, the .8 degrees is the "twist" of the dogbones looking at them along the axis, not from the side. The camber changes about 1.6 degrees in 3" suspension travel as shown in your diagram above and prior calculations I did and it's absorbed by two bushings, so each bushings sees .8 degrees of offset which is mousenuts and can easily be absorbed by the poly.

But, the Axle, Knuckle, Tire and Dogbones are a unit along with all of the fasteners and move at the same time so shouldn't they receive the same 1.6°? If anything, the dogbone itself with either rubber or poly is trying to resist motion due to the nature of the bushings. BTW, that drawing above is from the rear not side.

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL1600/2283636/23877721/412910885.jpg

chevynut
11-04-2016, 05:11 PM
Hey dumbass RD, I already showed you that the bolt can handle the loads, but obviously you're too stupid to understand engineering principles. There are lots of examples of a single shear dogbone front mount that have worked out just fine, but your ignorance won't let you admit it. I give up on trying to educate you, you're a certified moron. :D You should try working on getting your CG down a little before the car tips over. :D

Nick, imagine a dogbone with bushings front and rear, and bolted in the front. Now, put a bolt through the rear bushing and twist it 1.6 degrees. The front bushing will deflect .8 degrees and the rear bushing will deflect .8 degrees for a total of 1.6 degrees from the front bolt to the rear bolt. I don't expect RD to understand that, and months from now he'll still be whining about how bad poly bushings are despite thousands or tens of thousands of guys using them. He would rather put up with all the noise and vibration that tiny underpowererd engine of his can muster. :D

Maddog
11-04-2016, 06:04 PM
Hey dumbass RD, I already showed you that the bolt can handle the loads, but obviously you're too stupid to understand engineering principles. There are lots of examples of a single shear dogbone front mount that have worked out just fine, but your ignorance won't let you admit it. I give up on trying to educate you, you're a certified moron. :D You should try working on getting your CG down a little before the car tips over. :D

Nick, imagine a dogbone with bushings front and rear, and bolted in the front. Now, put a bolt through the rear bushing and twist it 1.6 degrees. The front bushing will deflect .8 degrees and the rear bushing will deflect .8 degrees for a total of 1.6 degrees from the front bolt to the rear bolt. I don't expect RD to understand that, and months from now he'll still be whining about how bad poly bushings are despite thousands or tens of thousands of guys using them. He would rather put up with all the noise and vibration that tiny underpowererd engine of his can muster. :D


Cnutroll still calling everyone dirty names, many immigrants tend to do things like that.

NickP
11-05-2016, 07:14 AM
Hey dumbass RD, I already showed you that the bolt can handle the loads, but obviously you're too stupid to understand engineering principles. There are lots of examples of a single shear dogbone front mount that have worked out just fine, but your ignorance won't let you admit it. I give up on trying to educate you, you're a certified moron. :D You should try working on getting your CG down a little before the car tips over. :D

Nick, imagine a dogbone with bushings front and rear, and bolted in the front. Now, put a bolt through the rear bushing and twist it 1.6 degrees. The front bushing will deflect .8 degrees and the rear bushing will deflect .8 degrees for a total of 1.6 degrees from the front bolt to the rear bolt. I don't expect RD to understand that, and months from now he'll still be whining about how bad poly bushings are despite thousands or tens of thousands of guys using them. He would rather put up with all the noise and vibration that tiny underpowererd engine of his can muster. :D

Key word, "DEFLECT"

NickP
11-05-2016, 07:23 AM
And the bending forces on the 13mm front bolt can easily handle the rest. Like a coat hanger:D

RD, I'm trying very hard to have a conversation that will provide information and an understanding for future individuals that may want to venture into this task for their own vehicles. You, along with a select few others on the other hand want to act like a, what was that special word you used earlier, oh yes F___K - add ing and clowns. If you cant resist it, go to yellow bullet where you and those others like you will be so welcome and will fit in like the rest of the children there.

Again, what you fail to understand is that all of your arguments are null and void given that you went out and purchased a chassis that exhibits all of the conditions you continue to rag on. You continue to berate the very product and GM engineering you purchased - I just fail to understand you path.

chevynut
11-05-2016, 07:42 AM
Yeah Nick RD can't even calculate how much stress there is on the parts nor what the strength is, he just freaks out about shit he's ignorant about and makes up phantom "problems". When you prove him wrong with real engineering calculations and logic he shuts up only to come back with his same stupid crap a week or two later after it's all been explained to him a dozen times. The guy is an idiot imo.

And this is what he said in July....:p " All the bushings look great, and the original pads and rotors show little wear and will get reused too. The whole purpose of using a C4 conversion was to not buy a ton of aftermarket parts to make a better driving car. " I guess the rubber bushings he thought were so great weren't so great after all.

IMO RD will never finish his 55 project. He bolted the chassis together which any teen-age kid could do, and it sits there because he's too obsessed with addressing non-problems and bashing others who try something different that he doesn't understand. I just wonder when the firewall is going to fall out. :D

55 Rescue Dog
11-05-2016, 03:26 PM
All you calculated was the single shear force on 2 steel plates bolted tightly together with a 1/2 inch bolt , which is just dandy for something standing still. Where are the cyclic, and bending forces in your analysis in regards to fatigue on a bolted a non press fit 3/4 inch sleeve on sleeve? Of course it is plenty strong enough on paper, or sitting in the garage. What happens if the joint loosens? And, if you are truly an engineer, why would you put cyclic bending forces on the threaded portion of a heavily loaded heim joint on a torque arm? Even an idiot can see that's not going to last very long. You might want to consider a safety link on that too.
I'm not worried about it like this. Oops, other than the poly bushing!
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