Nomad final assembly [Archive] - TriFiveChevys - Trifivechevys.com is an online car club for enthusiasts of Trifive Chevy Cars and Trucks.

chevynut

04-25-2017, 08:20 PM

Glad to see you back Bitchin'57 ;). Yes it does feel good to talk about final assembly. In fact, I just met with my interior guy today and finalized the materials we need for the whole car. We are sending 1 1/2 of the orange/tan (Ferrari Tan) hides out for perforation asap so that's a big step. He has 4 full hides left over from an abandoned project he's selling me at his cost, and we're ordering 2 1/2 more charcoal hides that he thinks will finish my car. He originally told me it should take 7 hides so I hope there's enough :geek:. He already has the charcoal wool Mercedes carpet that he ordered in bulk and we're going to order the tan wool headliner material closer to when he gets the car after I get it assembled....there's a lot of work before that.

I've been working on interior details like rear seat belts and drilling holes for wiring, etc. the past few days before I put the body on the rotisserie. I spent a couple of days trying to figure out how to install seat belts without having ugly bolts sticking out the bottom of the car but I think I figured it out. Decided to leave the rear of the console until later....gotta get this moving.

I just sprayed the last coat of primer on the roof, and it just needs final sanding which I'll probably do at his place. I need to call to make sure he can take it this year. :eek:

567chevys

04-25-2017, 08:27 PM

Wow ,

looks really good , glad your seeing the Finish line.I don't see how you find all the time to build the car .you must not sleep ?

Sid

chevynut

04-26-2017, 10:30 AM

Here's the batch of parts from my zinc plater. I disassembled two Nomad tailgate latch assemblies and had all the steel parts plated along with brake parts and a bunch of other stuff. While I was there picking them up I saw several boxes of car parts they were doing :).

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chevynut

05-03-2017, 11:47 AM

One of the things I needed to do before paint is install the rear seatbelts. I had a heck of a time figuring out where to anchor them and still look good. I read that the belts should be no closer together than 15" and no further apart than about 21". The inboard locations weren't too hard to determine, but they needed to be outboard of the console. The outboard ones were more tricky. I didn't want to go through the wheel tub with a bolt, so I went through the floor instead. The only thing showing underneath is the reinforcement plates and bolt heads. The plates are epoxied into place with some super-duper space age epoxy I got. :) I'll use locknuts on top. The outboard mounting point is just in front of the tubs. Hope it all works right :)

I also cut the notch in the floor for my torque arm, which you can see in the last picture. If I had designed it better I wouldn't have had to do this but I did it with the body off the frame originally. And I probably cut more out than I really needed to.

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c57heaven

05-06-2017, 06:12 AM

thnaks for the idea on the seat belt mounts on the side. Will you be bolting to the L bracket or was that for fitment?

chevynut

05-06-2017, 10:00 AM

The seatbelts will be bolted to the top of the L-brackets which are made of 3/16" steel. They'll go on the backside so they don't interfere with the seat cushion. I still need to drill the holes. ;)

Here's the rear seat structure, console, and tubs so you get an idea of what the problem was. I thought about mounting them on the sides of the seats, at the driveshaft tunnel and the armrest, but decided not to go that route.

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chevynut

07-21-2017, 05:35 PM

A while ago I bought a new dash bezel set and a set of Dakota Digital VHX instruments and clock. I decided to go ahead and assemble them to see what they look like. Here's the clock in the new bezel with a chrome "BelAir" script. I decided that I want to remove any gold emblems/scripts.

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Here's the instruments. I got the black face with white numbers because I don't like either the blue or red. The needles turn red at night with the lights on. I really think these are the best gauges on the market right now.

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WagonCrazy

07-21-2017, 05:44 PM

Those are nice.
And I personally agree with eliminating the gold colored emblems (for chrome). Doing the same with mine (when I get to that point.).
Carry on Laszlo...
It's all progress.

Bluegrass Trifive

07-21-2017, 07:24 PM

I really like them too. I've got a set of the HDX series to go in my 57. Their tech support is top notch and they've helped me work through several PCM interface questions.

chevynut

07-22-2017, 06:16 AM

I've got a set of the HDX series to go in my 57.

The HDX series gauges have some nice features but I don't like the layout for the 55-56 setup with the backwards tach. It just seems "wrong" to have a tach go counter-clockwise. :p I had just bought my VHX gauges when I saw the HDX gauges for the first time. They're quite a bit more expensive than the VHX series too, and I don't know if I could justify the additional cost. I got my VHX setup for $700 and the best price I can find on the HDX series is $1230.

IMO they should have just forgotten about the analog speedo on the 57 setup and put the tach there instead, and just use the digital speedo only. I personally think it would have been more functional and looked better.

http://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/YYQAAOSw3v5Yrznp/s-l1600.jpg

http://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/n-AAAOSwdGFYrzHT/s-l1600.jpg

55 Rescue Dog

07-22-2017, 03:01 PM

Something I never cared for with most aftermarket speedometers is cramming 160mph into the dial for show, when 120mph would be more useful, being easier to read, especially with a short sweep. 160 is okay with a 270 degree sweep. Same thing as running a 12000 RPM tach on a 6000 RPM engine. Plus the needles move much more quickly with better resolution using more realistic numbers.

chevynut

10-17-2017, 10:33 AM

I decided to post the assembly of my front end parts here since it's more "final assembly" than it is "chassis assembly". The chassis assembly is essentially finished.

I got the radiator support pieces sanded, painted, and polished the past few days. There's 9 pieces and I painted both sides which turned out to be a helluva lot more work than I expected :eek:. I hate painting hanging parts that flop around when you spray. :mad: But they're done.

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I also polished the machined finish Concept One power steering reservoir so it's now ready to install. I picked up some Redline Synthetic PS fluid over the weekend too.

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chevynut

10-17-2017, 02:33 PM

I got the radiator support rear panels installed and I hope I finished everything behind them. :eek: I ran the horn wire to the passenger side horn above the fans and to the driver's side. I also extended the wires for the fans so they end up in an accessible location beside the radiator, accessible from the front.

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Then I mounted the PS reservoir and hooked up and tightened all the lines.

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I had made some stainless brackets to mount the horns long ago so I polished them up and temporarily mounted the horns. They're Hella dual note horns and I don't particularly care for the red, but they didn't have black ones at the time. :p Once the radiator cover is on you won't see them but I might check for black ones now. :)

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Troy

10-17-2017, 03:34 PM

7900

Hey Just like Fuzzy and his Sun Drop Soda LOL

NickP

10-17-2017, 05:41 PM

Red? Puzzled

chevynut

10-17-2017, 07:06 PM

Red? Puzzled

Huh? :confused:

BamaNomad

10-17-2017, 08:37 PM

I think he's puzzled about the color of your horns.... :)

chevynut

10-18-2017, 07:43 AM

I think he's puzzled about the color of your horns.... :)

Me too. :D That's why I said I'll likely change them for black ones, even though they're not seen with the radiator cover on. They looked fine with the primer, but don't go with the orange. ;)

chevynut

03-14-2018, 08:50 PM

Today I decided to make sure I could get all the wires I needed through my door hinges. I need 9 on the driver's side and 10 on the passenger side. I thought I tried this when I made them but I forgot what the result was since it was so long ago. :D

Anyhow, this is four 16 gauge (2 windows, 2 vent windows), four 18 gauge (2 door locks, 2 speakers), and two 20 gauge (1 door light, 1 signal/spare) wires in the hinge. I think I have room for at least 2-3 more. So all is well :)

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Now I need to get them painted, run the real wires, and put the connectors on the ends. ;)

TrifiveRichard

03-21-2018, 08:42 PM

Nice hinges CN, did you make/modify them?

chevynut

03-22-2018, 06:26 AM

Nice hinges CN, did you make/modify them?

Thanks Richard. I modified a pair of stock hinges. I originally bought a pair of the braided stainless wire looms but decided I didn't like the way they looked or fit. I got the idea for these from someone else and put my own twist on them.

TrifiveRichard

03-22-2018, 05:45 PM

I used the factory u-channel on the 56 ht. I really like the way yours look, maybe I can use your approach when I get to the 55 2dr sedan I have.

chevynut

03-22-2018, 06:36 PM

I used the factory u-channel on the 56 ht. I really like the way yours look, maybe I can use your approach when I get to the 55 2dr sedan I have.

I have 25 pairs of hinges I was going to modify and sell but haven't had time. I think I have a couple of them half done if anyone is interested in a pair.

TrifiveRichard

03-22-2018, 07:56 PM

I’d like a pair CN, how do we handle the transaction?

TrifiveRichard

04-18-2018, 03:30 PM

Florida 57

04-18-2018, 06:04 PM

Good looking hinges, glad I only need to run two 20 gauge wires through mine for door lights.

chevynut

04-18-2018, 06:24 PM

I just received the hinges Laszlo. It's really a clean mod, and sure beats modifying the door and jamb. I will use them on the 55 2dr Delray I have. It's up after the 59 Corvette of my significant other. Thanks again! Dick

Thanks for the feedback Dick! By the way, I'm not sure but I THINK the tri5 Chevy hinges are the same as a C1 Corvette????? Do you know?

TrifiveRichard

04-18-2018, 06:36 PM

Interesting, no I don’t know, maybe Gary (BamaNomad) does. We’ll be tearing down the corvette next month. I may be using the hinges sooner than planned!

BamaNomad

04-18-2018, 07:22 PM

No, I don't know that they are the same (but likely are very similar). it would surprise me if they ARE exactly the same part...

chevynut

09-14-2018, 06:22 AM

Thought I'd update this thread a little and hopefully it will get more active soon. :)

It's taken a long time, but the car is finally ready for paint and it's planned for two weeks from now.

I replaced the red Hella horns with black ones of the same model. Rear wheelwell seals have been re-installed after tinted bedliner was sprayed.

I bought a rear license plate frame with a backup camera that I need to wire to the chassis or body. I haven't quite figured out how I want to route that wire yet. My Kenwood stereo has a backup camera feature so I figured I might as well use it. :)

The rear bumper was picked up by Ogden Plating after Goodguys Colorado last weekend. I figured I might as well get it in their queue so I have it when I need it. It took me a while to decide if I wanted to make openings in it for the exhaust or not, but decided against it. I ended up going with simple turn-down tips that I made.

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MP&C

09-14-2018, 11:06 AM

Heard and not seen......the best exhaust...

chevynut

09-14-2018, 11:46 AM

The first pic shows just the smoothie bumper, and I made the exhaust tips so they just barely show below it.

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chevynut

09-29-2018, 05:03 PM

While I'm waiting for paint I decided I might as well assemble some more parts. So I rebuilt the vent window assemblies and installed the new window frames and new smoked gray glass. All the glass will be smoke gray except the windshield. I sure don't like Classic Chevy's instructions for assembling the vent window assemblies. I had to take the first one I did back apart to get the rubber pieces to interlock the way they're supposed to.

I did some searching on the right way to use the glass setting tape, and it sounds like lots of people have trouble with it. I ended up folding it in two and pushing it into the frame channel all the way around, then I sprayed the tape and the glass with window cleaner. The glass slid right in easily. Then I put them in the oven at 175* for about 20 minutes to dry them out and soften the tape so it forms and sticks to the glass. Seems like it worked well.

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That was so much fun that I might assemble the door glass into the re-chromed frames and assemble the liftgate. ;)

chevynut

09-30-2018, 11:19 AM

I was putting the door glass together and got the chrome frames on the glass with no problem. However, when I put the lower channel on things got ugly. I can't get the channel high enough to install the screws that hold the channel and the chrome frame together. One side is worse than the other for some reason. I believe I have the glass fully seated into the chrome frame. I checked the new channels against the stock ones I have left from the car, and they look correct dimensionally. So I'm thinking the glass must be a little too tall. I bought the glass from Auto City a decade or more ago so I doubt they'll fix it. Can this glass be trimmed down? I'm guessing not since I think it's tempered. :(

What's the correct fix for this? Why is every fricking thing on these cars such a PITA? All new parts don't fit together.:cry:

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chevynut

09-30-2018, 11:35 AM

I took the lower channels back off and I'm pretty convinced the problem is the glass. Here's what the fit looks like WITHOUT the rubber glass-setting channel. I've tried to hammer the glass into the chrome frame better but nothing changes.

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I guess I'll take off the chrome frames and see how the glass compares. :mad:

NickP

09-30-2018, 12:47 PM

And people wonder why these cars are so expensive.

chevynut

09-30-2018, 05:48 PM

I disassembled both door glasses and checked them against each other, and they look identical to me. The lower channels look identical except one's left and the other is right. I noticed that the new repop channels are deeper than the stock ones I have and that the top of them hits the bottom of the rubber flap. Not sure why they're made that tall.

I think part of the problem is that it's hard to get the chrome frame in exactly the right position, and you can't move it once it's installed. There's really no corner that accurately locates the frame on the glass. So I decided to try a trick......I put both the rubber gaskets on the glass, lubed them with window cleaner, and installed the lower channel at an angle. Then I installed the rear of the chrome frame at a slight angleand aligned the screw holes with the ones in the lower channel and installed one screw. Then I used a dead-blow hammer to tap both the frame and the lower channel into position on the gaskets. This forces the frame into the correct position relative to the glass and ensures the screw holes line up. It was tight but I think it worked. I then installed and tightened both screws. I again hammered the frame and channels to try to seat them and put a clamp on the front of them that I'll leave for a couple of days while everything sets and dries out. Hopefully then they won't move.

I'm putting an order together for a few more parts like door weatherstrips and seals, chrome crests, a cowl to hood seal, a tailgate cable retractor (screwed up and only ordered one before), and I have Madmooks working on getting me a shipment of all of his stainless tailgate hardware and door strikers put together.

I decided to eliminate all the gold on my car so that's why I'm going with the chrome crests. I got a chrome "BelAir" script for the speaker grille and I've been trying to get a chrome "Nomad" script for some time now. I got ahold of Bill at Danchuk a couple years ago and suggested they make some in chrome since all the other gold stuff is available in chrome now. He thought it was a great idea and said he'd try to get it done, but I haven't seen one yet. So I may have to send one off to get stripped and chrome plated. Hopefully soon I'll be installing that stuff. :)

BCPrez

09-30-2018, 07:05 PM

chevynut

09-30-2018, 07:59 PM

When you place your order for the tailgate re-tractor, you may want to ask them if they carry the pin that goes through the clevis. The one's I just bought did not come with the pins and they need to be the correct length or you may have issues with the cables re-tracking correctly.

Thanks for the heads up. I bought a set of the clevis pins from Mr. Nomad so I assume they will work. I looked at my cables and they have the rounded clevis on the end like the stock ones. They're still in GM boxes. I wonder why the repops have that square clevis.

BCPrez

10-01-2018, 07:49 AM

Not sure why the repop is so squared and chuncky either, when the factory one looks to be an easier one to make. Glad you already have the correct pins. I'll have to order a set.

chevynut

10-16-2018, 07:57 PM

In case anyone needs to buy Nomad door weatherstrip I thought I'd mention that I found out you can get them from Summit or Jegs for a great price. The SoffSeal 1002 weatherstrips (55-57 Nomad/Safari) are $92 directly from the company website, around $69 on eBay, but Jegs and Summit sell them for $36. I just got mine today, and they were drop-shipped directly from SoffSeal. The hood to cowl seal is only a little cheaper from Summit. ;)

BCPrez

10-17-2018, 06:39 AM

Thank you for the information. I ordered a set of roof rail seals from Danchuk and they should arrive today. I opted to try them as they are molded to fit the corner radius so I my hope is the window will seat better. I will update as soon as I get them in.

chevynut

12-04-2018, 08:55 PM

I'm trying to get some plugs and seals installed and I'm a little confused. I've installed the four rocker end plugs and the inner rocker drain seals. Also installed the cowl vent bumpers that I didn't even know needed to be there. :geek:

I have a hardtop floor in my Nomad because they didn't make sedan floors that long ago.:p There's a hole in the front floor brace that I always thought was for a convertible body mount but sedan floors have them too. The brace has a hole in it, as does the floor pan right above it. Both are 3/4" in diameter.

Right behind those holes are two smaller, 5/8" diameter holes. I don't have a clue what these are for.

Finally, just behind the doors there are two holes in the floor pan for hardtop body mounts, which I don't have. They are also 3/4".

https://www.classicchevy.com/assets/cci/images/size/600x/sku/31-206.jpg

I want to plug all of these holes with rubber plugs (maybe should have welded them up) but I'm not sure what plugs to use. Danchuk makes several of them but they don't say what size hole they fit.

I THINK Danchuk 813 is for the holes in the braces and the floor above them. They have a long protrusion for some reason and they say 4 are required per car.

https://www.danchuk.com/images//medium/813_m.jpg

I don't want to use 813 in the holes behind the doors because of the length of the protrusion (I'm picky). The rocker end plugs #825 are too big and I think they're 1".

https://www.danchuk.com/images//medium/825_m.jpg

Danchuk 810 are for the trunk side walls and I think they're too big but I can measure on my sedan.

https://www.danchuk.com/images//medium/810_m.jpg

Danchuk 812 says it's for "rear body mount access plug" which I think is in the trunk. Nomads don't have these. Again I'll have to check the size but I think they're too big too.

https://www.danchuk.com/images//medium/812_m.jpg

I can't find anything that's supposed to go into the two smaller holes behind the front braces. What goes there?

I did find these plugs for the rear doors on a 4DHT but don't know the size.

https://www.danchuk.com/images//medium/828_m.jpg

I guess I'll hit the hardware store tomorrow and see if I can find anything "generic" that will work. I don't want plastic plugs so I'll be looking for rubber. Anyone have suggestions? Anyone know what those two 5/8" holes are for? :confused:

chevynut

12-04-2018, 09:00 PM

The brace holes I'm referring to are the ones on the right end in this pic. The floor pan has the same size 3/4" holes directly above them. The ones on the "tab" hanging off the brace go through the floor too, and they're the 5/8" ones.

https://static.summitracing.com/global/images/prod/xlarge/dck-1380_xl.jpg?rep=False

Custer55

12-05-2018, 06:29 AM

I would guess some of the holes would have been for registering the body parts together when it was assembled, but not sure on that. If you can't get the right size plugs for all the holes you could always drill out the holes to fit plugs that you can get. Probably not the best idea after everything is already painted but you could touch up the edges of the hole before putting in the plug as the plug will cover the touched up area anyway.
Brian

chevynut

12-05-2018, 06:34 AM

I would guess some of the holes would have been for registering the body parts together when it was assembled, but not sure on that.

That's possible, but surely it wasn't left open. So there must be a plug for those holes.

Also can't find any for the lower cowl listed anywhere, but they might be the same as the ones for the rockers. Weird that nobody mentions those plugs.

https://realdealsteel.com/images/F144670625.jpg

chevynut

12-05-2018, 09:36 AM

Well I dug out some boxes of stuff that I got with my sedan and found SIX new plugs that fit the smaller holes behind the cowl floor brace. It's weird that there's two holes on the passenger side and only one on the driver's side and I never noticed that before. Also found out that the rocker end plugs do fit the holes in the lower cowl ;) but nobody tells you that (not that I could find). Then I noticed there were two more holes under the rear seat and I tried one of the smaller plugs that I used up front but they were too big. Searched through some more stuff and found some "upper cowl" plugs that fit the holes under the rear seat....again nobody mentions those holes. So all I need is the 3/4" plugs Danchuk #813 and something (maybe the same ones) for the holes behind the door since I can't find any of those in my parts stash. :)

Trying to figure out where to start assembling this thing. :D

chevynut

12-09-2018, 06:10 PM

I know the factory attached the rear bumper seal to the body by crimping the sheetmetal over it, but I don't want to do that and damage the paint. Is there a good alternative like using some sort of adhesive? I thought about using some urethane caulk like they use to install windshields. Anyone use anything else?

BamaNomad

12-09-2018, 08:16 PM

Use an adhesive/sealer and 'crimp lightly'... ?

chevynut

12-12-2018, 12:42 PM

I've been trying to make sure I have everything done on the chassis and under the body before I mate them for the final time. I've attached a new connector to the VSS and completed the transmission harness. The wires from the reverse switch, reverse lockout, VSS, and cutouts are in the harness. It's ready to push up through the transmission tunnel after the body is dropped on.

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When I built the fuel tank and installed the plumbing, I was planning to drop the tank if I ever needed to change the fuel pump so I plumbed the fuel pump with stainless hard lines. During chassis assembly I thought it would be a good idea to cut a hole in the cargo floor to get to the pump. It recently occurred to me that with the hard lines having the pump access hole was moot. If I disconnected the hardlines from the pump I couldn't get the lines out of the way to pull the pump. So today I re-plumbed the tank with flex lines. This way they can be pushed aside to pull the pump unit out of the tank.

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I didn't like the yellow zinc washers for the body mounts and I needed some shims, so I made some custom ones that I can stack.

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I have also topped off the transmission and filled the differential with fluid. I removed all the temporary wiring from the engine along with the engine harness and replaced the oil pressure gauge with the Dakota Digital sender. I removed the distributor so it doesn't hit the firewall and will probably remove the upper intake for the same reason, plus it will be easier to finalize the engine harness with it off. The only other thing I can think of that I still want to do is cut the e-brake cables to length but I'm not sure if I can do it without the body on, since the passenger side attaches to the body behind the rear seat. I'll have to try to estimate where it goes. I think I'll have to do the front cable to the e-brake pedal after the body is on. I don't want to have to lift the body off once it's down on the frame.

WagonCrazy

12-12-2018, 06:01 PM

Good update Laszlo. Stay with it..you're getting closer to driving it. :)

NickP

12-13-2018, 07:39 AM

chevynut

12-13-2018, 07:45 AM

Aluminum spacers to replace the washers are cool, but why not just one solid one rather than stacking three, less time to make (too late now) and as a judge, I would wonder why. If a judge stops to ponder, you may derail his efforts and eliminate yourself from the top honors. I love the effort you have here, very nice overall.

Nick, thanks for the feedback. The steel body washers are 1/8" thick so I made these out of 1/8" aluminum plate, not rod. It was pretty easy to do. I thought about making one thick shim but this way I can easily tweak the thickness if I need to. I don't think a stack of them looks bad myself. I had to shim the #2 mounts to get the cowl to sit right and the doors to fit.

bigblock

12-13-2018, 08:41 AM

chevynut

12-13-2018, 08:53 AM

CN your ride is looking amazing, I know you said you didn't want to remove the body once it's on the frame, did you consider adjusting the mounts with the washers then can the body be lifted just enough to slide the washers out and make 1 shim the same thickness or is it to hard to kept the gaps that way. I'm just asking for the future. Thanks

Thanks. Yes that's possible and easily done. I made "custom" machined aluminum shims for my fenders top and bottom, and for the bumper braces. There's custom shims for the tailgate and inner fenders too. All the shims are stamped with their location. I could do it for these two body mounts too if I wanted to.

chevynut

12-17-2018, 03:17 PM

Got my door hinges wired up and put heat shrink on the harness and assembled them with new bushings. I'll terminate the ends after I install the doors. I decided to add one "spare" wire to each hinge, so I didn't have to try to run another wire if I needed one for anything in the future. So the driver's hinge has 10 wires and the passenger hinge has 11 wires :eek:. That's about all that will fit and there are some 14 and 16 gauge wires in there. ;)

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I also finished up what I could on the e-brake cables and they're clamped to the frame. I drilled and tapped a couple of holes under the body to attach the passenger side cable to when the body is in place. All I have to do then is install the front cable from the foot brake and hopefully I can make the connection and adjustments with the body on.

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Finally, I added three "spare" wires to my firewall harness too. I'm using a 22 position WeatherPak connector and only had 19 positions used. I decided I might as well wire up all the positions to the harness under the dash and I can add the wires in front of the firewall if I ever need them. It's a lot easier to do now than try to fish a wire through later.

I think the chassis is now ready to drop the body on, as I can't think of anything else I need to do. :geek:

NickP

12-17-2018, 05:31 PM

Redundancy is good.

Rick_L

12-17-2018, 07:49 PM

I hadn't considered running the e-brake cables on the top of the frame rail, looks like a good idea.

WagonCrazy

12-17-2018, 07:57 PM

I hadn't considered running the e-brake cables on the top of the frame rail, looks like a good idea.

I don't know about that. It looks tight once the body goes down on the frame. How you gonna tighten all those fittings with them sandwiched in there?
I did mine along the outside of the frame rail, easier to get to them for adjustment.

chevynut

12-17-2018, 08:22 PM

I don't know about that. It looks tight once the body goes down on the frame. How you gonna tighten all those fittings with them sandwiched in there?

There's quite a bit of room between the frame and body where the adjustments are, from what I have observed. The floor rises 2" or more under the front seats as you can see by my crossmember height which clears the floor. I don't think it's going to be that bad to make the adjustment, but I'll find out. I wish Lokar had set it up to adjust it at the pedal instead. It's tight behind the center body brace back to the brace under the seat. I didn't want the cables and adjusters on the inside of the frame because it's crowded there with brake lines and exhaust, and I personally thought it was too ugly to put on the outside of the frame. ;)

BamaNomad

12-18-2018, 09:11 AM

chevynut

12-18-2018, 09:40 AM

I am of the same opinion as wagoncrazy... I think you might regret putting those items on the top of the frame rail. I considered putting some things on the top of mine, but decided there was not enough room for 'maintenance access'...

Please let us know what you think after you get the body set down on it!

I did a lot of measuring and looking at that area and hopefully it works out. I'll know before long. I really don't expect to have to do much "maintenance" on it once it's adjusted. I heard the same stuff about my clutch reservoir being under the dash. Once it's bled and adjusted, I really don't expect to have to deal with it much after that. Hidden brake and coolant reservoirs are the same deal. I have level sensors to tell me if the fluids get low.

55 Rescue Dog

12-18-2018, 03:44 PM

Just remember for best maintenance, fluids ALWAYS need to be changed more often than I ever get around to. More vehicles compound the problem. I'm at least 3 years overdue changing brake fluids on one car with 3 under the dash master cylinders, and every other vehicle I own.

chevynut

12-20-2018, 06:34 PM

I went through 2-3 sets of ignition switches, door locks, tailgate locks, and glove box locks with a pile of keys I have. I found a key that works for one ignition switch, one pair of door locks, and one tailgate lock. I'm pretty sure these are the original keys and locks for my Nomad. But I can't find a key that works for either of the glove box locks I have. Can a locksmith make a key for it, or do I have to buy a new one? I'd sure like all the keys to be the same. I wonder if I really need to lock the glove box, but I think it would be handy at times.

Today I decided to rebuild my heater controls and install new levers and the Vintage Air potentiometers. What a PITA that is. The bracket that they send you for the fan control pot puts it in a position that makes it bind, and it's crooked as hell. I ended up trashing it and making my own bracket for it so everything lines up and works smoothly.

I'm trying to install the new heat control levers and I am having a hard time getting the spring compressed to install the washer and second lever. Any tricks to doing that?

What are the little nubs on the levers where they ride against the side of the control frame? I'm referring to the nubs or tabs right next to the pivot pin...seems like they cause misalignment of the lever.

https://www.muttonhollowchevys.com/assets/images/56%20Chevy%20Heater%20Control%20Levers.jpg

I bought a new bezel and when I went to take mine apart, the bezel is almost perfect. I guess I'll use it on my next project...if I live that long. :p

One other thing I noticed is you have to remove the fan switch to install the Vintage Air parts, and in doing so you remove the light. They don't give you anything to replace the light with or tell you how to deal with it. What are you supposed to do?

markm

12-21-2018, 07:28 AM

A good locksmith should be able to help you out. When I bought my 55 it came with no keys, I removed all the locks and replaced or rekeyed them the same as my 56. I have rekeyed my 72 Blazer, Two 87 GMC 4x4s and my Dads 46 Chevy pickup to my 72 Cheyenne Supers key also.

chevynut

12-21-2018, 10:23 AM

I'm trying to install the new heat control levers and I am having a hard time getting the spring compressed to install the washer and second lever. Any tricks to doing that?

And the trick is..........cut a 1/4" rod just under 1.5" long that slides into the heater control frame, between the two sides. Load the levers, spring, and washers onto the rod, use the levers to compress the spring, and slide it into the frame. Then use the original pin to drive the rod out and it's done. ;)

Still don't know why those "nubs" are there on the levers. :confused:

chevynut

12-21-2018, 11:47 AM

There seems to be a problem with the new outside door handles I bought from Danchuk recently. The screws are drilled at an angle to the mounting surface. Anyone else seen this? I called Danchuk customer service and they asked me to send a pic to the product expert.

9422

9423

asbicca

12-21-2018, 12:34 PM

I trashed my Danchuk handles in favor of ones from https://www.trimparts.com Much closer to original handles.

chevynut

12-21-2018, 02:49 PM

I trashed my Danchuk handles in favor of ones from https://www.trimparts.com Much closer to original handles.

What issue did you have with the Danchuk handles? Other than the screw hole problem they look really nice to me. Trim Parts price is the same as Danchuk on their website, but Summit's price is significantly higher. :confused:

I'll wait til I hear from Danchuk on the resolution of the issue. I'm not using them the way they are because I think they could cause a dent in my door.

Rick_L

12-21-2018, 03:17 PM

The hardtop/convertible handles meet the door at a different angle than the sedan/wagon/Nomad handles. Looks like they gave you a little of both. What were they thinking?

chevynut

12-21-2018, 05:48 PM

The hardtop/convertible handles meet the door at a different angle than the sedan/wagon/Nomad handles. Looks like they gave you a little of both.

That's not the problem. The screws are not perpendicular to the sheetmetal mating surface. If these were for a convertible they would have the same problem. The screw holes are drilled wrong regardless of the application.

Rick_L

12-21-2018, 08:03 PM

isn't that what I said?

chevynut

12-21-2018, 09:13 PM

isn't that what I said?

Maybe I misunderstood what you were saying. I thought you were saying the handles were for a HT/convertible. I don't know what those handles are like, but maybe the screw holes are at a different angle on them. Is the casting different? Maybe these were cast for a sedan/Nomad, and drilled for a Convertible/HT? Is that what you meant?

Rick_L

12-22-2018, 05:07 AM

The screws appear to be at the angle for one type handles, mounting surface is for the other type. It's not going to work.

chevynut

12-22-2018, 09:23 AM

I heard back from Danchuk on the door handles but I didn't like the response. I was told that since I bought them through Summit, I would have to send them back to Summit for exchange. He didn't even acknowledge that they were made wrong but said "It may be possible that there's a defect when those were manufactured. I’m assuming Summit will send those handles back to us and do a direct exchange for you". I sent the pics I posted above....either it's wrong or it's not. My original handles have the screws perpendicular to the mounting surface, not parallel to the pin like these. I believe these are made wrong.

So I replied and asked if he's acknowledging that they're made wrong and how I'm supposed to know whether or not Summit is just going to send me another bad set. I asked if it wasn't their procedure to have Summit and all of their dealers inspect and purge bad parts from their inventory. That's what they should be doing if there are suspected bad parts in the pipeline. I personally believe Danchuk should have told me to send the handles back to them and for them to find a correct pair to send back to me instead of making me deal with Summit. It's Danchuk's responsibility to address this, imo.

Looks like I may send them back to Summit and get a refund, and buy the Trim Parts handles from Jegs....they're a lot cheaper than at Summit for some reason. Either that or I'll ask Summit to price match Jegs.

NickP

12-22-2018, 04:57 PM

Is Jegs selling the Danchuk part? No guarantee they won't be from the same batch is there.

chevynut

12-22-2018, 09:26 PM

Is Jegs selling the Danchuk part? No guarantee they won't be from the same batch is there.

Jegs sells the Trim Parts handles for $83 vs $113 at Summit. I sent an e-mail to Summit asking them to price match Jegs, which they say they do. I explained the issue to Summit and said that Danchuk doesn't seem to care if I get the correct part or not, so I'd rather go with Trim Parts. Since it's nearly Christmas I don't really expect to hear anything back until Wednesday, at which time we'll be headed to Texas. Seems like I'm having issues with almost every part I get.

I did get the heater control assembly finished with the Vintage Air mods and it's ready to go in after I install the new bezel I received today. Got the Raingear parts out of storage, cleaned them up, and have everything ready to install.

LEE T

12-22-2018, 10:59 PM

Don't you have your old ones to rechrome?

chevynut

12-23-2018, 10:18 AM

Don't you have your old ones to rechrome?

The old ones from my Nomad are really nice with no pits, damage or scratches, just "old" chrome that would look bad on new paint. Most of the parts from my car were removed in the early 70's and put into storage so they're in good shape and would be nice as-is for a driver. I'd re-chrome them if it didn't cost 4 times what new ones cost. I can get new handles for $85 that look great (if the screw holes were right) and I don't care about originality on my car. Sounds like the Trim Parts pieces are actually better. I contacted Ogden Chrome about chrome plating my $12 Nomad script, and they want $175. I'm guessing rechroming a pair of door handles and buttons would run $400 or more....at least at Ogden Chrome. I haven't checked with Madmooks but he declined to quote on the Nomad script so I'm assuming there's no interest in doing the handles. I had a hard time convincing him to re-chrome my door glass frames, but I'm glad he decided to do them. ;)

NickP

12-23-2018, 01:00 PM

As much mockup that you have done through the years, I'm surprised you didn't catch that ten years ago, LOL. I know it's frustrating as all get out to depend upon a NAME supplier and get junk. Hang in there, you're on the downhill slope of a show stopper.

chevynut

12-23-2018, 01:18 PM

As much mockup that you have done through the years, I'm surprised you didn't catch that ten years ago, LOL.

But I just got them. The old original handles fit fine. :) :)

BamaNomad

12-23-2018, 01:21 PM

... Seems like I'm having issues with almost every part I get.

Just part of the *fun* we have working on these old cars... :)

I suspect ALL reproduction parts have some *issue*, and perhaps seeing the issue immediately as you did here is better than the part turning 'green', or 'black', etc.. a few months after installation~

chevynut

12-23-2018, 01:35 PM

Here's the problem I had with the Vintage Air control conversion. i assembled it per VA's instructions. Notice how the bracket holds the pot way too high for the lever?

9425

This is with the lever attached. The lever moves horizontally and with the pot angled it goes into a bind, bending the pot shaft. I think eventually it would break it.

9426

9427

The other problem is that the positioning of the shaft makes the lever too short to put their retainer on at the end of travel.

9428

I re-designed the bracket and set the pot lower so now it works like it should. ;)

LEE T

12-23-2018, 01:40 PM

The old ones from my Nomad are really nice with no pits, damage or scratches, ;)
That is exactly what you want for cores when replating. Find a local shop that will just dip your parts, and you do all the prep and polishing. My local shop will dip in copper and give them back to me, as many times as I want. I wouldn't trust them to do it all.

55 Rescue Dog

12-23-2018, 04:22 PM

That's the whole beauty of patina. It still fits, and looks original. Some good OE door handles would look perfect, even with all the shiny stuff. Other than too late now, you could have just welded the holes shut, and come up with something modern.

chevynut

12-23-2018, 07:01 PM

I love Summit Racing. They ship fast, good prices, and they will match any legit price on the exact product. I sent an e-mail to Summit yesterday asking if they would price match Jegs on the Trim Parts handles since my Danchuk handles are apparently made wrong and I'm afraid I won't get a good replacement set. I got an e-mail today (Sunday) with a pre-paid shipping tag to send the Danchuk door handles back, and they've already shipped the Trim Parts handles to me. They even gave them to me for $1 less than the Jegs price. :p

Now that's what I call customer service! :)

chevynut

01-01-2019, 11:27 AM

I got back from Texas yesterday and my Trim Parts exterior door handles were here. They have the screws correctly aligned with the sheetmetal, unlike the Danchuk parts I got.

Danchuk said there "might be" an issue with the parts I got but they claim they won't be able to tell until they get them back. To me the pictures are clear. They drilled and tapped the holes at the wrong angle. He told me he showed another Danchuk employee my pics and he said they'd still work like that. What a crock. They're in denial and won't admit to having an obvious issue with them. I told him I went ahead and bought the Trim Parts handles since they don't seem to be interested in addressing the issue. Don't buy the Danchuk handles until they fix this problem.

Here's the Trim Parts handle....

9447

9448

Rick_L

01-01-2019, 02:11 PM

Typical Danchuk behavior. Nothing's ever wrong even if it's plain that it is. And you ended up doing what one should do, never buy direct from them and don't try to get them to fix a problem. By from a third party that will treat you right and let them deal with Danchuk. I'll bet Danchuk doesn't argue with Summit!

chevynut

01-07-2019, 08:42 PM

I've been working on some more assembly and I have applied soundproofing mat (RAAMMAT) on my firewall and toe boards. I installed the Raingear unit and it's ready to wire up. Then I re-polished the A/C bulkhead and the steering column mount and installed them. I have also installed the brake and clutch assembly and brake bellcrank. The Lokar gas pedal and clutch and brake pedal covers are installed. I attached the new later model headlight dimmer switch and ran the three wires into the car.

The Lokar foot e-brake is installed, but I realized it's going to have to come out again because I left the cable in the sheath and it needs to be cut down. I was having fits with the Lokar e-brake pedal assembly because the cable sheath end "nut" wouldn't fit and interfered with the side plate. So I had to modify it slightly for clearance of the end "nut" and e-clip. Then I found that the pedal would bind when I tightened the mounting screws. They say to install a spacer but I either didn't get one or it got lost somehow. I made a spacer and put it where they said it goes, but when I assembled and tightened the screws a different screw caused the side plates to "pinch" the internal clevis. I ended up making another spacer for that screw and now it works like it should.....after 3-4 hours of messing with it. :mad: I don't think I ever actually tried to actuate the foot pedal during mockup, I just mounted the assembly.

Next up is installation of the Vintage Air evaporator, inside hoses, and defrost ducts.

chevynut

01-09-2019, 01:35 PM

Got the VA evaporator installed and the hoses hooked up inside the car, and defroster ducts put in place. After installing the Lokar gas pedal and e-brake, I decided either those had to be painted to match the brake and clutch pedal, or vice versa. I decided to paint the gas pedal and e-brake arms to match the brake and clutch arms. I'll leave the pads brushed aluminum.

chevynut

01-14-2019, 01:08 PM

The past few days I painted the e-brake lever and gas pedal levers charcoal and installed the gas pedal. I'll install the e-brake lever later when I fit the cable.

9498

9499

Like I did with my PS reservoir, I put off locating the VHX computer until later.....well, it's later. I had a hard time figuring out where to put it that's accessible and out of the way at the same time. I thought about putting it above the glove box, but the VA glove box is not the best design and I decided I didn't want to take it out to get to the VHX computer.

I decided to mount it high in the dash, above the A/C hoses and to the right of the ashtray and heater controls. There's not much there except the A/C hoses and I could access the computer by removing the hoses from the evaporator. I'm thinking that once I get it set up and wired, I shouldn't ever have to access it unless it fails. Programming is done with two remote buttons and there are no dip switches on it. There's one CAT5 cable that goes to the instrument panel, and one that goes to the clock. The BIM connection is a single cable that allows control of the PAC-2750 fan controller without a separate temperature sensor. The rest are inputs from various sensors and a few outputs I'll use.

Here's the brackets I made and the installation. The aluminum bracket below and to the left is for 5 relays and two flashers which I still have to finish:

9500

9501

I also installed my previously made front wiring harness and 22-pin connector. I added 3 spare wires to fill it up ;).

9502

9503

WagonCrazy

01-14-2019, 03:27 PM

I'm thinking that once I get it set up and wired, I shouldn't ever have to access it unless it fails.

BE CAREFUL with this strategy/location. I think you'll need to get to it before you want to...

chevynut

01-14-2019, 03:31 PM

BE CAREFUL with this strategy/location. I think you'll need to get to it before you want to...

Why? There's no adjustments or settings on it. I think I can still access it but would have to remove a few things. And there's nowhere else to put it except in the console by the back seats :cry:.

55 Rescue Dog

01-14-2019, 03:44 PM

Just a thought. When I mounted this fuse panel, I used the Ron Francis milled aluminum mounting bracket. It's pretty slick, as I can just reach up under the dash, and push it up to unhook, then it drops down to look at it.
9504

WagonCrazy

01-14-2019, 04:36 PM

Why?
Because of Murphys law. It's alive and well.

Consider RD's suggestion about a bracket that would allow it to drop down for servicing.

Stuff fails with these aftermarket parts. Once you have that all wired in there, you ain't gonna want to tear your dash apart to get to it.

My unit is in the center console where I can get to it easy.

Food for thought...

Rick_L

01-14-2019, 04:45 PM

chevynut

01-14-2019, 07:09 PM

Thing is, unlike the Ron Francis fuse panel which has fuses to check or service, there's nothing to look at or service with the DD box. It's either working or it isn't. Sometimes everything can't be totally accessible or worth the trouble to have access.

Totally agree with Rick. If it's not working I can troubleshoot the wires and sensors from the other end and I don't need to access the unit. If the wires have the right signals and it's still not working, then the unit probably needs replaced anyhow since nothing inside is serviceable. The most likely culprit in the event of a problem is a sensor or wiring problem. I'll verify everything is working before installing the A/C duct hoses, and they aren't that hard to remove. It's not like I'm welding a panel over it.:geek: There's nothing to blow like in a fuse panel which you do need access to. Do you need to access an ECU? Only to replace it. ;)

Rick_L

01-14-2019, 08:02 PM

Well there's the wiring connections too, but those are pretty solid with the DD stuff, not to worry after initial verification.

chevynut

01-15-2019, 07:58 AM

Got the hood assembled except for the hood latch. All new Danchuk hood bird, crest, vee, and hood bar.

9505

I'm really liking the braces and hood bar covers I made....the covers really clean up the ugly backside of that casting.

9508

9506

9507

Now it goes into storage until it's needed. :)

MP&C

01-15-2019, 09:07 AM

Sweet!

Bitchin'57

01-15-2019, 01:00 PM

Hood looks fantastic!

56Safari

01-15-2019, 02:19 PM

Wow! Looking sharp

WagonCrazy

01-15-2019, 03:59 PM

That color just pops!

chevynut

01-15-2019, 07:05 PM

That color just pops!

The pictures just don't do it justice. You have to see it in person. ;)

chevynut

02-20-2019, 03:55 PM

I've been working on wiring lately and have been stringing wires to build a harness from scratch. So far I counted about 65 wires that come down from the dash into the console area, but some of them will just go to the right side of the car. There should still be over 50 wires not counting the engine harness which has around 30.

Starting on the driver's side, I've been terminating the wires and trying to make sure I have all the wires I need. I installed the lower door hinge and have attached a 12-pin connector to the wires coming out of the hinge, then attached the other connector half to the wires in the harness. I also built a rear body harness for the wires at the rear of the car and attached a connector in the kick panel area for that. I ran wires up to my auto-dimming mirror with map lights, compass, and temperature. I almost forgot the wires for the tweeters that will be up next to the visors, but they're routed now.

I have the brake switch, headlight switch, wipers, and all the relays on the firewall wired up. I just finished wiring the column connector today. I'm working from left to right to make the wire terminations, and I still have the ignition switch only partly wired. I'm designing some of this as I go so I have schematics all over the place. ;)

9583

I have been wondering how I was going to control the electric exhaust cutouts and today I tried using a one-touch window controller.....and it works! All you have to do is hit the button and the cutouts open or close, or you can stop them in the middle if you want to. Not sure why I'd want to do that but I can. :) The good thing about this is my switches are not meant to switch power, only to provide a signal. The window controller will take either + 12V signals or ground signals to operate it. My keyless entry/alarm system has outputs to roll the windows up remotely.

The bad news is I was planning to control the vent window motors with the same controller. However, the vent windows are a strange creature. On the cutouts and power side windows (I think) the two motor wires get reversed to run the motor one way or the other. It took me a while to figure out that the vent window motor has to be grounded, then powering the two wires separately while leaving the other un-grounded runs the motor. Not sure why they did it that way since it's different from everything else.

Also, after sending back one of my vent window motors since they gave me two of one side, I discovered that one of them is junk. The motor ran for a while, then it got slower and slower until it would no longer run. The one that does run gets jammed when all the way open or closed and it won't reverse. Not sure what to do about that, but I know I don't want any vent window handles on my door panels.

I got my rear bumper back from Ogden Chrome today. It looks great but it sure looks like there's a lot of copper on it. I think it's 10 pounds heavier than when I sent it and it looks noticeably thicker. :eek:

9584

chevynut

02-20-2019, 08:36 PM

However, the vent windows are a strange creature. On the cutouts and power side windows (I think) the two motor wires get reversed to run the motor one way or the other. It took me a while to figure out that the vent window motor has to be grounded, then powering the two wires separately while leaving the other un-grounded runs the motor. Not sure why they did it that way since it's different from everything else.

In doing some research I found out that these older motors work differently than newer motors. On new power window motors you reverse power and ground on the two leads going to the motor. That is how my Electric Life power windows work, and how my cutout motors work.

However, on the vent window motors (58-64 Chevy), and all the older chevy power windows you have two leads and they BOTH get switched to power depending on which way you want the motor to turn, and the motor case gets grounded. If you ground the other lead when you apply power to one, the motor doesn't work. So I'm hoping I can find a way to make the window controller work. On the other hand, I don't know that I really want the vent windows "one touch" so I may just use relays. Damn I have a lot of relays. :eek:

Also, after sending back one of my vent window motors since they gave me two of one side, I discovered that one of them is junk. The motor ran for a while, then it got slower and slower until it would no longer run. The one that does run gets jammed when all the way open or closed and it won't reverse. Not sure what to do about that, but I know I don't want any vent window handles on my door panels.

I happened to notice that Tom's Classics sell the Auto City Classic vent window motors and his ad states " These motors come with a lifetime warranty.". So even though I didn't buy them from Tom's, I assume Auto City will honor the warranty. I can't believe neither of these works right. I'll call them in the morning to see what they'll do for me.

BamaNomad

02-20-2019, 09:10 PM

Tom's Classic and AutoCity are the same company (or divisions within the same company)....

chevynut

02-21-2019, 11:40 AM

Good news! Auto City Classics told me to sent the motors back and they'll send me a good pair. I hope this isn't an ongoing problem with these things.

MP&C

02-22-2019, 07:01 AM

Bumper sure looks nice!

NickP

02-22-2019, 08:30 AM

9584[/QUOTE]

Need to bend that bumper to better match that Porsche.

chevynut

03-09-2019, 09:17 AM

I got the new vent window motors back from Auto City Classic but I haven't tried them yet. I hope they work better than the last pair.

I've been continuing to work on wiring when I can. I'm also building more seat mount kits, and working on an Art Morrison 59 Corvette frame. The owner (my interior guy) bought it with a C5 front end and wants a narrowed C4 Dana 44 in it.

9598

The VHX computer is all wired up and yesterday I fired it up to check functionality. Everything works that I was able to check....all my warning functions work. Coolant level, engine over-temp, and hood unlatched turn on the "check engine" light. My brake fluid level and e-brake switch turn on the "!" warning light. The, turn signal indicators, high beam indicator, and backlighting all works. I connected a light bulb and the taillights, brake lights, turn signals, and 4-way flashers all work. However, the damn 4-way flasher switch in the column won't stay pushed in. I think this turn signal switch got damaged at Flaming River during assembly so I'll probably have to get a new one. First I'll pull it out to see what's wrong with it.

I'm currently wiring up the relays that go on the back of the valence halves. On the driver's side I have a driver's side vent window switch, Passenger side vent window switch, and a switch to operate my cutouts. Behind the valence are two relays to run the driver's vent windows. On the passenger side there are no switches, but I have two relays to run the passenger vent window, one relay to enable the backlights in the switches (they need to be grounded) and two relays to operate the A/C and A/C inhibit at full-throttle. I'm using a signal from the engine ECU that monitors the TPS.

The valence halves will have connectors on each end so they can be removed if needed. I still have to cut the A/C vents and switch holes in them but I've been hesitating in case I want to move things around a little. I'm having some attachment hardware laser cut for the switches. I'm pretty sure we'll be covering the valence with leather, so I have to clearance the switch holes properly.

9599

9600

9601

chevynut

04-05-2019, 10:44 AM

This wiring project has turned into a huge, tedious job and it continues every day when I have time. I had everything done under the dash and realized I was missing a couple of wires that also go to the keyless entry, so I had to add them. I ended up re-configuring a relay on the firewall to make more sense with the proximity of other devices so that's done.

Also, since I'm not that familiar with audio systems I ran separate wires from the tweeters and speakers to the stereo....only to find out they need to be connected together. I thought they took separate wires :eek:. I could have saved a bunch of wire by splicing them together before running them to the console.:geek: I tried to run the wires to the rear speakers and found out that I didn't have long enough pieces left so I had to order more. I also need to add a wire to trigger the backup camera which I realized after looking at the owner's manual more closely. That's all that's left to complete the stereo wiring.

I have the ECU/engine wiring completed along with the Electronic Spark Control, knock sensor, Wideband O2, and fuel pump/injector control and it's all integrated into the harness. I had to add some wires to the ECU to get a couple other programmable signals out. I'm using the TPS signal to turn the A/C off when at full-throttle, and the temperature output to turn on the "check engine" light on the VHX cluster.

The wiring of the power control relays, window controllers, fan controller and headlight/dome/RAP controller is completed. I found a BMW connector for my coolant level sensor too. I was a little concerned about that when I searched everywhere in the world and couldn't find one....finally eBay came through. But instead of having loose contacts and seals, it came with pigtails which I hate.

I have everything completed as far as I know down to the console, and have added all the power wires that need to go to the fuse panel from the modules. I added all the switch wires for the cutouts, windows and door locks. There's a lot more wiring in the console than I thought there would be. The alarm is integrated into the door locks and dome light control and there's signals running every which way, including to the door lock and window switches.

One issue I have to resolve is that my DD PAC-3500 door lock controller outputs a negative lock signal as does the keyless entry. However, my lock switch is configured so it can only output a positive signal. So I have to sort that out somehow....may just use a couple of small transistors instead of relays. I also have run out of room for my cutout controller and keyless entry box so I have to figure out where to mount them.

I got the 4-way flasher switch fixed. I removed the turn signal switch assembly and noticed that the plastic catch for the 4-way hazard lights was bent a little (probably at FR during assembly) and wouldn't stay latched...so I put it where it needs to be and heated it slightly with a heat gun and let it cool....works perfectly now. I guess it's "memory plastic". :-D

It still looks like a mess, but believe it or not there's a lot of progress. :p

9640

9641

9642

Troy

04-05-2019, 11:21 AM

YIKES

55 Rescue Dog

04-05-2019, 04:28 PM

A schematic, with numbers for every wire would save a lot of time in the long run. I would hate to have to get back into some of my wiring, even after making good notes, and labels. And it only has like 12 circuits. I've worked on hundreds of industrial machines with hundreds of wires individually labeled, with prints, and it was always a nightmare with every issue at some point. Even a stock try-five can be a challenge.

markm

04-05-2019, 04:46 PM

Glad that is not mine to figure out, wiring issues kept my 56 sidelined most of the 70s and all of 80s.

56Safari

04-05-2019, 05:03 PM

Also, since I'm not that familiar with audio systems I ran separate wires from the tweeters and speakers to the stereo....only to find out they need to be connected together. I thought they took separate wires :eek:. I could have saved a bunch of wire by splicing them together before running them to the console.:geek: I tried to run the wires to the rear speakers and found out that I didn't have long enough pieces left so I had to order more. I also need to add a wire to trigger the backup camera which I realized after looking at the owner's manual more closely. That's all that's left to complete the stereo wiring.
]

Looking good man! What make/model speakers are you running in the front? For an average 2 or 3 way component speaker system in the front seats you would wire a single amplified run (from the head unit or a remote amplifier) to a crossover near the front doors. The crossover separates the amplified signal into different frequencies for each speaker. From the crossover you have individual speaker wire runs for the low and/or mid range door speakers and the tweeters on each side. For the rear speakers, a lot of care stereos use coaxial 2/3-way speakers which only require 1 speaker wire run. The speakers handle all of the frequency separation with capacitors mounted onto the back of the speakers.

Below is an example setup of what I recommend on a budget.

My go to inexpensive component speakers
https://www.amazon.com/Polk-Audio-DB6501-6-5-Inch-Component/dp/B000P0R6LQ/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=polk+db6501&qid=1554508453&s=electronics&sr=1-1

My go to inexpensive coaxial speakers
https://www.amazon.com/Polk-Audio-DB651-Certified-Speakers/dp/B000P0PF9G

AMP - ROCKFORD FOSGATE PRIME - (I always match the amp to the impedance and power requirements of the speakers purchased)

And if you ever want to install a sub, do yourself a favor and get a kicker 10" square L5 or L7. It sounds excellent for every genre of music.. It does very well with sustained bass and punchy notes simultaneously.

https://www.amazon.com/KICKER-S10L74-1200W-4-Ohm-Subwoofer/dp/B004MX78UG/ref=sr_1_5?keywords=kicker+10%22+L7&qid=1554508644&s=electronics&sr=1-5

chevynut

04-05-2019, 05:33 PM

My speakers are Polk Audio 6.5 round DXi 6501 in front with separate tweeters and the rear ones are 6x9 coaxial DXi 691 3-waycoaxials. The DB6902 replaced the DXi 6901 and the DB 692 has replaced the DXi 691. I assume they're very similar.

https://www.crutchfield.com/S-Ur72kpxYql3/p_107DXI6501/Polk-Audio-DXi6501.html

https://www.crutchfield.com/S-wf3aeakUN5A/p_107DXI691/Polk-Audio-DXi691.html

Apparently I should have gotten all the parts out of the boxes and figured all of this out before I started wiring the stereo. :???: I got the stereo wiring diagram out and it doesn't show any crossovers or anything else. It just shows which wires go to which speakers.

56Safari

04-05-2019, 08:12 PM

Awesome! .. that's more or less my exact go-to system.. If you really want to go the extra mile, using a dedicated external 4 channel amplifier to power the speakers will help with overall clarity at lower volumes (and max volume, but that's rarely important IMO).... you can always add that down the road if you need it... I've spec'd almost identical systems to so many people, and they always want to cheap out at the last minute and try to buy stuff thats "similar" but less expensive..... and they usually call me bitching in 6 months trying to make it better. go figure

chevynut

04-05-2019, 11:36 PM

56Safari, thanks for all the information on the stereo system. I'm not a huge audiophile but I do like good sound. I sure should have looked at my whole system before I started wiring any of it.

After you mentioned the crossovers I opened up the speaker box and there they were. They're about 3.5" square and a little over 1" thick. I searched for a place to mount them and found a perfect spot on the firewall, right above my gas pedal and below my relay bank. Since I don't want to drill any holes in the firewall I made a mounting plate that attaches to other stuff I have under there. I think I got it figured out and the wires look like they will all reach. Now I'm glad I ran wires all the way down for both the speakers and tweeters ;) I hope I don't need to mount them near the doors for some reason....I don't know where that would be especially where they're accessible.

I have a Kenwood double DIN touchscreen stereo model DDX 470 that I bought several years ago when I was building my console. Do I need an amplifier for the front speakers or is that what you were talking about above that could be added later? I didn't think I needed anything but the head unit. Here's the specs:
General features:

DVD/CD receiver with AM/FM tuner
built-in internal amp (22 watts RMS/50 peak x 4 channels)
6.1" touchscreen with variable color button illumination
built-in Bluetooth for hands-free calling and audio streaming
Pandora control with iPhone, Android, and Blackberry
iPhone App Mode with limited control of apps like Netflix and YouTube
display function for Garmin "Streetpilot" navigation app for iPhone
fits double-DIN dash openings

Audio/video features:

plays CDs, DVDs, and USB memory devices (see Hands-on Research for full capabilities)
3-band parametric equalizer with 8 preset tone curves
high- and low-pass filters
subwoofer controls
speaker type setting

Expandability:

iPod control: Kenwood cable (https://www.crutchfield.com/S-nv01Fi9EnRF/Product/Item/Main.aspx?I=113ip202) required for full access to audio/video content
works with SiriusXM tuner (not included)
inputs: rear USB input, dual rear A/V inputs, rear-view camera input
outputs: A/V output, 6-channel preamp outputs (4-volt front, rear, subwoofer)

If I wanted to install a subwoofer some day would I need an amplifier for that? Or do they have internal amps?

https://images.crutchfieldonline.com/ImageHandler/trim/620/378/products/2012/48/113/g113DDX470-F.jpeg

https://images.crutchfieldonline.com/ImageHandler/trim/3000/1950/products/2013/27/113/g113DDX470-b.jpg

WagonCrazy

04-06-2019, 08:23 AM

I'm glued to the latest wiring advancements Laszlo. Keep it up...and thank you (Safari) for the detail on today's stereo setups. I need to study that more as I will do the same as CNut is doing (when I get to that point with my Nomad build). Good stuff here!

56Safari

04-06-2019, 06:00 PM

You don't NEED an amp to power the front or rear speakers but some people choose to install them for better sound quality. The kenwood stereo you have puts out 22 watts RMS x 4 channels. The Polk DXI 6501 speakers you have can handle 10-100 watts RMS. and the DXI 691's can handle 2-100 RMS watts... Speakers typically like more RMS power than less as long as its within spec, and speakers usually sound better when they're at the higher range of their capable RMS power.... When speakers are underpowered and your listening at a lower volume level sometimes they can sound muddy and not as clear, usually if you're going over halfway on the volume level its not as noticeable. I've installed plenty of those polk speakers without amps and they do just fine. You can always add one down the road if you choose, they're not that hard to install.

Subs typically require an amplifier, but some units are self powered and have the amp built in... But you would still need to run a 4 to 8 gauge wire to power the amp (gauge depends on power requirements) as well as an 18 gauge remote wire and a 8 gauge chassis ground... If you go with a sub I honestly can't recommend that 10" square kicker sub enough.. It fits in a small truck box and is easy to hide and sounds great for ALL genres of music.

Here's a pic of my L7 in my 99 silverado, fits perfectly under the bench seat and just shy of being flush with the front of the seat when its down... the amp is tucked into the door pocket nicely.

9643

56Safari

04-06-2019, 06:23 PM

Also its important to note if you do buy a sub make sure you match your subwoofer and amplifier impedance properly for maximum power/performance and $$$ savings. A lot of subs now days are dual voice coil so its important to think about before you buy anything.. Here's a good article on wiring DVC's in both series and parallel.

https://jlaudio.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/204374200-Dual-Voice-Coil-DVC-Wiring-Tutorial

The kicker L7 I run is a DVC with 4ohm at each coil, wired in series for 2 ohm.. powered by a rockford fosgate 500x1 channel @ 2 ohm amp

https://www.crutchfield.com/S-RmtQI4qK2vO/p_2062TS10L7/Kicker-TS10L7.html - Kicker L7 (there's a new version out there now, but this is what I purchased)

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00BF6HYDE/ref=pe_385040_128020140_TE_3p_dp_1 - Rockford Fosgate amp - Awesome little amp, only measures 8.5"W x 6.8"L x 2"D. Each amp is bench tested before leaving factory and usually puts out significantly more RMS watts than advertised.. the test sheet that shipped with my amp showed it tested at 580watts x 1 channel @2ohms.

chevynut

04-06-2019, 06:33 PM

Wow 56 Safari, you sure caused me a lot more work. :D

Once I figured out where I could mount the crossovers I had to design and fab a bracket. I removed the relay bracket and added a flange to it so I could screw the crossover bracket to the flange. I then used the throttle cable end fitting to hold the lower part of the bracket in place. Seems like it's pretty solid but there's barely room for everything. It barely clears the throttle cable. None of this is visible under the dash unless you're laying on the floor. ;)

9644

9649

9645

9647

I honestly have no idea where I'd mount an amplifier. I'm thinking I may try it without one and see how it sounds. If it's as good as my factory Porsche or my wife's factory Infiniti stereo I'll be happy. If I need to add one I think it would have to go in the rear of the console and I'd have to add some wiring to get there. How big are these things?

Another thing I did was replaced the connectors on my door locks. They use some crappy un-sealed blade-type connectors. Since there will possibly be water getting inside the doors I replaced them with WeatherPacks. I also eliminated a few wires and the purple wire is a signal wire to turn on an LED on my lock switch when the doors are locked.:cool:

9648

chevynut

04-06-2019, 06:57 PM

Thanks for all the audio info you're sharing 56safari. If I were to add an amp for the front speakers, would it also drive the rear speakers? I assume a 2-channel would only drive two front speakers and a 4-channel would be needed to drive both front and rear speakers, correct? I understand that a subwoofer is kind of an independent thing and requires it's own amp.

I checked Crutchfield and found several 4-channel amps. Why would you need a remote control for an amp?? If I were to install an amp now, what your you recommend that's small but decent quality and would drive both front and rear speakers? Cost isn't really a big factor. The only place I could mount it is behind the console box so is wire length a problem? I've wired the speakers with 18 gauge and the tweeters with 20 gauge. The wires that came with the speakers are a lot smaller. I thought that mattered for power. On the other hand, 45 watts is only 4 amps.

56Safari

04-06-2019, 07:06 PM

Wow, those brackets look great! Amps vary in size depending on what you want and how much you want to spend... When you're tight on space, Alpine makes several small format options that are a good balance between size and output power, easily hideable behind a dash or under a console.

Alpine KTA-30FW (https://www.crutchfield.com/p_500KTA30FW/Alpine-KTA-30FW-Tough-Power-Pack.html) 75 watts RMS x 4 channels - small footprint

Alpine KTA-450 (https://www.crutchfield.com/p_500KTA450/Alpine-KTA-450-Power-Pack.html) - 50 watts RMS x 4 channels - medium footprint

chevynut

04-06-2019, 07:21 PM

Here's a couple I found that are really small, both 45W RMS. Do I really need more power? How do they compare to what you posted, and which do you think would be best for me?

https://www.crutchfield.com/p_113KAM1814/Kenwood-KAC-M1814.html?tp=35782

https://www.crutchfield.com/p_500KTP445U/Alpine-KTP-445U-Power-Pack.html?tp=35782

I need something fairly narrow, probably under 6-7" but length isn't a big issue.

56Safari

04-06-2019, 07:38 PM

I don't want to advocate spending more money, but I do think they make a difference.. But I also think that any of these small format options are an easy upgrade down the road if you're not happy. It's hard to figure it all out until you can factor in road noise, engine noise, etc...

I've personally installed the Alpine KTP-44A and KTP-44U and it does make a significant difference IMO... . I haven't used the Kenwood amp before and I'm having a hard time finding any reviews for it.

Keep in mind, if you're not planning on carrying passengers in the rear seat that often, you can bridge the amp into 2 channel mode and power only the front speakers from the amp which will give you 90 watts RMS x 2 channels for the alpine.

chevynut

04-10-2019, 12:14 AM

56Safari, I think I've made a decision to do all the stereo upgrades now, not later. I talked to my son and he said definitely ad an amp and a sub. He has the same Kenwood head unit as mine except he has NAV and I don't. We discussed the fact that although I don't listen to my stereo loud, my big engine will be fairly loud and I will have the music turned up louder than I normally do. Also if I park it with the doors open I may want to crank it up a little.

So I've been researching all of this and I'm trying to get a handle on what I need to do. Everything from my front crossovers to the front speakers and tweeters is wired up so I think that's all done. I am not sure where to go from here.

Should I get one 5-channel amp that will drive all 4 speakers and sub, or one 4 channel for the front and rear speakers and a separate one for the sub? I'd rather not have more components than I need and it seems like separate ones are more space and cost. Here's one...

https://www.crutchfield.com/p_575R600X5/Rockford-Fosgate-R600X5.html?tp=35808

Also, I've looked at powered subs and noticed they have some real compact ones that fit under seats, with built in amps. Are they worth considering? Like I said, I'm not looking for any heavy-duty thumping. Here's one that looks interesting...

https://www.crutchfield.com/p_575P30010T/Rockford-Fosgate-P300-10T.html?tp=64082

What's the difference between an 8" 500W sub and a 10" 500W sub? Isn't 300W enough? I guess I don't know what more power really gains you except a louder thump. I would probably put one behind the rear seats in my "package tray" area where the 6x9 speakers are. I don't want to take up all the room there. Seems like this one would work and is smaller...

https://www.crutchfield.com/p_206L7S84/Kicker-44L7S84.html

Do I need an enclosure for the sub? What is the difference between "vented" and "sealed" enclosures? This stuff is so complicated for someone like me who has never really looked at it. I like your enclosure and it may fit just right.

As far as amps, do these need to be accessible? I can put it/them under the rear seats if needed, instead of in the console where they would be harder to access.

Finally, do I need to run cables with RCA connectors from the head unit to the amp, or can I run regular wire? Is that what "pre-amp" or "speaker level" inputs means? Is one better than the other?

https://jlaudio.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/204374200-Dual-Voice-Coil-DVC-Wiring-Tutorial

The kicker L7 I run is a DVC with 4ohm at each coil, wired in series for 2 ohm.. powered by a rockford fosgate 500x1 channel @ 2 ohm amp

Isn't two coils at 4 ohms in series 8 ohms total? Or did you mean wired in parallel? Do you pick the amp first and then the sub, or the other way around?

Any more advice would be appreciated. I know it's a lot of questions but I'd like to get this sorted out so I can finish the wiring. thanks. ;)

TrifiveRichard

04-10-2019, 06:30 AM

Have you talked with Crutchfield reps, Laszlo? I have found them to be very helpful.

I have bought/installed a number of systems from them over the years. The last couple have been 100w rms/channel, 5 channel amp, separate front tweeters and sub (350 w rms). The DVR receiver was a Pioneer, although the one in the 1966 Chevy II is a Kenwood.

I’ve founf this combination is easy to install and sounds nice at low and high volumes.

chevynut

04-10-2019, 08:34 AM

Have you talked with Crutchfield reps, Laszlo? I have found them to be very helpful.

No I haven't. However I did go to Car Toys some time ago before I bought my receiver and speakers and told them that I was looking for a decent quality system and that I was not an audiophile looking for the best of everything. I explained my desires and expectations and by the time the rep was done he had me in a $3000 system, not counting installation. And he said they had to install it. I told him he didn't listen to me when I walked in the door. I think I can put together a nice system for under $1000.

The last couple have been 100w rms/channel, 5 channel amp, separate front tweeters and sub (350 w rms).

Isn't 100W RMS per channel pretty high for the front speakers? Is 350W RMS enough for a sub?

If I wanted to use regular wires in a harness between the receiver and the amp to keep everything "clean", would I use the "speaker level" inputs on the amp? I don't know the difference between using the RCA cables and using the main receiver connector but I assume the RCA cables would be for pre-amp signals. Is one better than the other? I need to understand this so I can wrap up my console harness wiring.

55 Rescue Dog

04-10-2019, 11:23 AM

I love great sound systems, but I already have two radio delete vehicles, and my 55 is an original delete car. I can save a ton of effort, weight, cash and I'll just wear ear buds. Some cars make many different sounds, noises, and sound like a rolling mechanical symphony, and you can hear every part of the car. Hotrods have built-in woofers, but I also use to think an AM rock station with a fader switch, and a reverb was cool.

chevynut

04-10-2019, 01:04 PM

Okay, here's what I'm thinking....

Rockford Fosgate R600X5 Prime Series 5-channel car amplifier — 50 watts RMS x 4 at 4 ohms + 300 watts RMS x 1 at 2 ohms

https://www.crutchfield.com/p_575R600X5/Rockford-Fosgate-R600X5.html

https://images.crutchfieldonline.com/ImageHandler/trim/235/175/products/2013/5/575/g575R600X5-F.jpg

Stinger 6-channel RCA interconnect cords https://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_38869_Stinger-SI4612.html

https://images.sonicelectronix.com/images/801343/main/si4612.jpg

Not sure on sub, but probably either 8" or 10" Kicker L7 as suggested by 56Safari. Still have to understand the enclosures too, as well as the impedance.

So it looks like I need 4 gauge power wire for this setup. WOW. :eek:

I currently have 8 gauge from the alternator to starter/battery protected by a 175A fuse. Then I have 8 gauge from the starter to the power distribution area inside my console, where there are four 50 amp breakers and one 30A breaker. That section is also protected by a 175A fuse near the starter. It looks like I need to instead run 4 gauge from the starter to a power lug, then 8 gauge to the breakers and 4 gauge to an 80A fuse and back to the amp.

Does this sound like a reasonable plan?

TrifiveRichard

04-10-2019, 03:37 PM

chevynut

04-10-2019, 05:46 PM

Thanks Richard. I pretty much convinced myself that the shielded twisted pairs was the way to go. Thanks for the confirmation. Cost isn't a huge factor for me but like everyone else I don't want to piss away money for something I don't need or want. I want to be a bit conservative on power because I really don't want to resort to welder cable for wiring. :D

As for the sub should it face forward or backward, or does it matter? If I get a "truck" box it's angled close to the same as my rear seat. Maybe I should build a box so it fits exactly......not sure. Found this site that's pretty helpful:

https://www.mtx.com/library-vented-sealed-subwoofer-enclosures

TrifiveRichard

04-10-2019, 07:58 PM

Crutchfield recommended facing to the rear, something about the trunk volume helped the sound quality. Not sure exactly what they meant, but I mounted it that way.

56Safari

04-10-2019, 08:25 PM

Sorry for the delay here, I've been busy working on the house and not checking the computer that much.... Let me do my best to answer all of your questions between the last 2 posts.

Regarding your amp selection, the Rockford Fosgate R600X5 (also kind of answers the 5 channel amp vs 4 channel + a sub amp)

Judging by the specs listed for the amp I don't think that you will be able to mix and match impedance between the door speakers and the sub while retaining 4 channel speaker control ( basically you will lose the fade between front and rear speakers, and you will have to wire all 4 door speakers in PARALLEL to run at a 2ohm load) See chart below

If you hooked up the amp in 4 channel mode, the amp will default to whatever the higher ohm value is (which is your door speakers @ 4 ohm). So the door speakers would run @ 50 watts and the sub would be running @ 200 watts RMS @ 4 ohm).

Below are the specs from crutchfield notice how the only mix and match is specific and running bridged on 2 channels.

5-channel car amplifier
50 watts RMS x 4 at 4 ohms + 200 watts RMS x 1 at 4 ohms
75 watts RMS x 4 at 2 ohms + 300 watts RMS x 1 at 2 ohms
150 watts RMS x 2 bridged at 4 ohms + 300 watts RMS x 1 at 2 ohms

I've always wanted to run a single 5 channel amp, but never quite found an amp for my application that was efficient enough and cost effective. It's almost always cheaper/better (unless space is a big issue) to just run multiple amps and wire each to application for specific impedance without leaving efficiency on the table.

Shallow Mount SUBS and 500W sub vs. 300W SUB

Regarding the shallow mount subs.. I haven't ever installed one that I honestly felt was worth the extra $$ or the hassle.. (It has been 4 years or so since I've put one in). They're usually just, meh IMO.......

Here are the size specs for shallow sub you posted vs. the Kicker 10" L7 that I prefer. These are the exterior box dimensions, the Kicker is smaller in the width, and only slightly larger in the height and depth..

Rockford Fosgate P300-10T
Width: 23-3/8"
Height:=13-3/8"
Depth One: 8-9/16"
Depth Two: 5-3/4"

Kicker TS10L7

Width: 21-1/2"
Height: 15"
Depth One: 10"
Depth Two: 6-11/16"

Whats most important is matching impedance and maximizing efficiency, a speakers job is to move air... To put it in engine terms, If you slap a huge flowing set of cylinder heads on a Chevy 305, whats going to happen? Or if you put a restrictive intake/MAF/Carb on a well built 350 long block whats going to happen?

Regarding your quote "I'm not looking for any heavy-duty thumping".. That's why I'm recommending a 10" L7... It is tight, punchy, responds quickly.... kick drums, stand up basses, and low frequency string instruments, etc... It's the best overall sub I've ever heard, I find most subs to be laggy, engineered for thump, and mostly for music that I don't care to listen to... but it absolutely will also "thump" if you want it to.

Ported VS. Vented Enclosures

The sub will usually dictate which type of enclosure to be used. The L7 uses a vented (ported) enclosure, and that's what helps it shine in such a small space. If you follow the sealed box specs for the L7, the box has to be considerably larger. I prefer subs with ported enclosures, I find most sealed box subs are for "thump".. but again, its what the sub calls for, I haven't heard them all so I hate to make a blanket generalization.

Amp location

Generally speaking, you don't usually have to access them once you have them dialed in. I usually spend a day or so tuning my system, which requires access to the amp occasionally to change settings. (crossover points, gains, etc). You could probably dial it in ahead of time, and tweak via the built in EQ on your kenwood reciever.. So i wouldn't be too worried about hiding them.

RCA connections / Speaker Level

Yes, get shielded twisted pair RCA's. Speaker level connections are an amplified signal from the amp in the head unit (reciever), the signal is then "de-amplified" inside the external amp and then re-amplified, thus degrading signal quality.

IMPEDANCE
Impedance can be tricky when dealing with Single voice coil speakers and dual voice coil subs. Here's an additional article on single voice coil wiring to supplement the other article I posted.

Single Voice Coil wiring (https://www.kicker.com/app/misc/support/tech/tech_papers/docs/SeriesAndParallelSpeakerWiring.pdf)

You are correct regarding my statement on my DVC L7 wiring, I wired in parallel, not in series (as I incorrectly stated) for a load @ 2ohm.

Power Cabling
I always run my 4 gauge wires directly to the battery or alternator take off, and run it straight back to the amp. They make distribution blocks as well, so you can run 1 wire back to a distribution block, then split that power between multiple amps... I usually run 4 gauge on everything I install

Picking Amp VS. SUB

I pick the SUB first based on how it sounds and the application it is for, then I find an amp to power it that matches the specs... But to be honest, since I came across the 10" kicker (started with an L5 10 years ago, now I'm on the L7's) I haven't installed anything else in any of my personal vehicles.. I have one in the audi and one in the silverado as we speak.

Let me know if I missed questions or if I can help answer anything else...

56Safari

04-10-2019, 08:36 PM

Isn't 100W RMS per channel pretty high for the front speakers? Is 350W RMS enough for a sub?

If I wanted to use regular wires in a harness between the receiver and the amp to keep everything "clean", would I use the "speaker level" inputs on the amp? I don't know the difference between using the RCA cables and using the main receiver connector but I assume the RCA cables would be for pre-amp signals. Is one better than the other? I need to understand this so I can wrap up my console harness wiring.[/QUOTE

considering power level, I prefer to have power in reserve, rather than turning up the volume and getting significant harmonic distortion. That’s also where the Dynamat, or Hushmat in my case,used liberally pays for its self. This is probably all a personal preference, but it works for me. FYI, the system I installed was about $2,200 from Crutchfield.

concerning connection the receiver to the amp channels, the shielded RCA cables are the only way to OMO. You get a cleaner signal without the added receiver output noise, and you don’t have to twist the pairs.

Considering the amp, the amp literature usually has the preferred routing, gauge and fuses, and often comes with it.

I think most of your questions I answered with my reply to chevynut, but in summary.

Always use RCA inputs with if you're running from the RCA output of the head unit / receiver. Speaker level inputs are for amplified signals, RCA's are for pre-amplified signals.

Matching amp to subs in both watt & impedance will maximize efficiency and there will be no need for power in "reserve" as the speakers will be operating as efficiently as possible....

the RCA's Cnut posted will work fine, the twisted pair will help reject interference.. You really shouldn't need shielded unless you're running up next to a bunch of AC power

Also, I love crutchfield and have used them for years.. I ALWAYS buy my head unit from them because they make it so damn easy to install... I always get everything I need and never have to run to the store or place another order... when I can, I buy anything else I need from them.. but often they're a LOT higher on amps and peripherals.... But I will say, their service is ALWAYS top notch and I can't recommend them enough.

56Safari

04-10-2019, 09:11 PM

A couple of additional things to add to my previous post for Cnut.

Apparently kicker has discontinued the L7 loaded in a truck box enclosure.. I'm not sure if the new version is too deep to install in a truck box, or if it just isn't hitting their target market.. you can still find loaded truck box versions of the L7 new on ebay. Judging by the pics of the new versions of the L7 on the kicker website, it looks much deeper than the older models.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Kicker-44TL7S102-10-1200w-L7-Solo-Baric-L7S-Loaded-Car-Truck-Sub-Enclosure-Box/302738665843?epid=2108736646&hash=item467ca17173:g:jAQAAOSwrhha-cpo

Also, regarding my post about the L7 box size, sealed vs. ported... I technically mis-spoke... Technically you CAN install an L7 in a smaller sealed box vs. ported (overall volume), but a sealed box requires specific panel lengths that make it more square and harder to conceal... A truck box mounted L7 is almost twice as wide but really thin and much easier to put under a seat or conceal.

Speakers have changed a TON in the last 10 years, so If you're still on the fence and I haven't sold you, it might be worth going to a local shop and listening to some stuff.. but I would make sure to bring your own music that YOU listen to. Make sure to bring multiple different styles to see how well they do in each genre... make sure you have some old songs you know like the back of your hand so you'll instantly know if something doesn't sound right.. I listen for tightness, punch, responsiveness, and frequency range... some subs are laggy and suited for the lowest of the lows, you don't wan't those..

A good test I find with subs is how well they perform when they have multiple tasks to execute at once.. If a bass player is playing long, sustained notes and a kick drum comes in... Does the bass disappear? does the kick barely hit? or does the sub keep the sustained bass riff and let the kick drum punch through... thats my .02

chevynut

04-11-2019, 09:04 AM

56Safari, thanks for the great reply. I understand most of what you said but I have a couple more questions or clarifications.

Judging by the specs listed for the amp I don't think that you will be able to mix and match impedance between the door speakers and the sub while retaining 4 channel speaker control ( basically you will lose the fade between front and rear speakers, and you will have to wire all 4 door speakers in PARALLEL to run at a 2ohm load) See chart below

Hmmmm, I assumed the sub was more or less an independent amp since it has its own inputs and outputs. The total power of the RF amp is supposed to be 600W RMS. I thought you could run each pair of speakers configured the way you wanted to. How do you run the front speakers in parallel when they have their own dedicated outputs? If you run the LF and RF in parallel you lose left and right control, and if you run the LF and LR in parallel you lose fade control.

Isn't the voice coil wiring you posted referring to multiple subs, not speakers? It's hard to believe they would design an amp that required you to parallel speakers meant for different channels.

So can't I just wire the front speakers and rear speakers to present 4 ohms impedence to the amp to get 50W per channel, and the sub voice coils in parallel to present 2 ohms impedance to its amp to get 300W? That's still only 500W total. Or do all speakers/subs always have to have the same impedance?

If it doesn't work that way, I could go with two separate amps if necessary. Space under the rear seat and/or in the console is not a problem. If I put them under the seat access isn't a problem. In the console is a lot more difficult once it's put together, unless I make an easily removable top.

I always run my 4 gauge wires directly to the battery or alternator take off, and run it straight back to the amp. They make distribution blocks as well, so you can run 1 wire back to a distribution block, then split that power between multiple amps... I usually run 4 gauge on everything I install

Where do you put your circuit protection? I thought I would run 4 gauge from the starter into the console, about 2 feet, to a 80A MIDI fuse, then to the amp in the rear. I can put a distribution block in the rear if I need it for more than one amp. From the "hot" side of the MIDI fuse I would run another 8 gauge wire to my other breakers that feed the fuse panel. Perhaps a MIDI fuse holder is too small to connect those large wires, so I could use a MAXI fuse holder instead. Essentially, I'd use the fuse as a distribution block in front.

Apparently kicker has discontinued the L7 loaded in a truck box enclosure..

Isn't this it? https://www.kicker.com/solo-baric-l7s-10-subwoofer-box

I take your word on the L7 since I have zero experience with any sub. I will probably delay the sub purchase until I get to finishing up the car's interior, but I need to get wiring done now. So I want to get the amp(s) and cabling so I know what I need to run.

I plan to run the RCA leads I posted from the receiver back to the rear seat area, then from the amp I'll run 16 gauge wire to the front crossovers and to the rear speakers which are just behind the rear seat. The sub will sit in the storage area behind the rear seat. Would it make sense to build my own custom enclosure to make it fit exactly in the space?

Also, I noticed some guys put a grille between the rear seats...I assume that's to get more bass sound through it? Everything I've read says you don't need to do that.

9651

9652

9653

chevynut

04-11-2019, 09:22 AM

56Safari, I called Crutchfield and the rep told me that any 5-channel amp can be configured to run the speakers at one impedance, and the sub at a different impedance. So he confirmed I can run the R600x5 at 4 ohms each for the front and rear speakers, and the sub at 2 ohms. He said the design is basically two separate amps in the same box. ;) He confirmed that with another rep.

I assume to get the full 600W of output you'd have to run two 4-ohm speakers in parallel for each channel, to get 2 ohms each or run 2 ohm speakers on each channel. I didn't even know they made them :eek:.

chevynut

04-11-2019, 10:28 AM

In fact, it looks like you could run two 4-ohm front speakers to get 50 watts per channel, four 4-ohm rear speakers with each pair in parallel to get 2 ohms and 75 watts per channel, and the sub at 2 ohms to get 300W. I understand that any configuration of impedances works per channel since each channel is essentially an independent amplifier.

55 Rescue Dog

04-11-2019, 04:09 PM

Z=E/I. Impedance always make my head spin, since the resistance changes with frequency. The total opposition to the flow of current in an AC inductive circuit is called impedance and is measured in ohms. Bottom line is, there is a lot of resistance/low current at high frequencies, but not much resistance, and more current at zero hertz. And then there is power/watts. P=E x I
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrical_impedance

56Safari

04-11-2019, 08:53 PM

Mixing & Matching Amplifier Impedance

I sent an email to kicker just to confirm what the crutchfield rep. said regarding matching impedance for that amp...They're probably right as it is their day job... but I want to make sure.... I'm haven't had to mix and match the impedance on an amp before.

Regarding Bridging the amp.. If you HAVE to bridge the amp, you would want to bridge the channels front to back and not side to side. So Left Front and Left Rear would be 1 channel and Right Front and Right Rear would be 1 channel....

A sub can have more than one voice coil, so 1 10" L7 dual voice coil speaker will have 2 positive and 2 negative connections.

Circuit Protection

I usually run the fuse on my vehicles 12" or less from the battery.. A lot of places recommend 18" or less, but definitely consider the path of destruction if the postiive became grounded..... I think a MIDI fuse is okay, its a Mini version of the ANL fuses which are commonly used in car audio.

Kicker L7
Apparently kicker has discontinued the L7 loaded in a truck box enclosure..

Isn't this it? https://www.kicker.com/solo-baric-l7s-10-subwoofer-box

You found it! I must have been going blind last night.. but that's good to hear, I was disheartened last night when I was having trouble finding it.

As far as the custom enclose goes, I would only make one if it was necessary for space or for some aesthetic value. The L7 truck box kicker provides is great, comes with the fiber filling and the port length is calculated to spec. If it fits, I wouldn't bother just secure it from sliding around. An interior facing grill is irrelevant, at that frequency bass is omnidirectional with one speaker and the wavelength is so long it will make no difference.

chevynut

04-11-2019, 09:53 PM

A sub can have more than one voice coil, so 1 10" L7 dual voice coil speaker will have 2 positive and 2 negative connections.

I understand the L7 sub with the enclosure only has one pair of connections (one + and one -) at 2 ohms. I thought that's what I read.

I usually run the fuse on my vehicles 12" or less from the battery.. A lot of places recommend 18" or less, but definitely consider the path of destruction if the postiive became grounded..... I think a MIDI fuse is okay, its a Mini version of the ANL fuses which are commonly used in car audio.

My battery is behind the passenger rear tire. The positive side (2 gauge) goes to a jumper lug, then to a Moroso disconnect, then INSIDE the frame through conduit to the cowl area where it exits and goes to the starter. From the starter I'll have 4 gauge about 18-24" into the interior of the car. just behind the firewall. I could put a fuse on the engine block but it would be something like the 175A MIDI fuse on the alternator side.

I plan to use this block right at the firewall, inside the console. It will allow me to connect the 4 gauge and split it into a 4 gauge to the amp and an 8 gauge to the breakers. I think it's pretty small and I don't have a lot of space there.

https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/quQAAOxyo4lRjQR-/s-l1600.jpg

Gmvette

04-12-2019, 06:56 AM

Sorry I don’t know squat about audio but your fabrication on all the rest of the interior lay out looks great.

I enjoy the coverage. Thank you

chevynut

04-12-2019, 07:49 AM

Thanks Gmvette. It's definitely not a stock interior. I do have an interior build thread here showing the construction. Here's a couple more pics of the front :)

9654

9655

This is my original rendering of my side panel design....

9659

And this is the covered cargo area and rear seat.....

9657

56Safari

04-12-2019, 09:42 AM

I understand the L7 sub with the enclosure only has one pair of connections (one + and one -) at 2 ohms. I thought that's what I read.

My battery is behind the passenger rear tire. The positive side (2 gauge) goes to a jumper lug, then to a Moroso disconnect, then INSIDE the frame through conduit to the cowl area where it exits and goes to the starter. From the starter I'll have 4 gauge about 18-24" into the interior of the car. just behind the firewall. I could put a fuse on the engine block but it would be something like the 175A MIDI fuse on the alternator side.

I plan to use this block right at the firewall, inside the console. It will allow me to connect the 4 gauge and split it into a 4 gauge to the amp and an 8 gauge to the breakers. I think it's pretty small and I don't have a lot of space there.

Yes, the L7 loaded enclose that comes installed in the box is already pre-wired @ 2ohms and only has 1 terminal.

That looks/sounds like a good plan, I'm sure 18-24" will be fine.

The Rockford rep just got back with me and said you can mix and match the impedance on that amp using 4 ohms x 4 channel and 2 ohms x 1 channel.. So you should be good to go.

If you want help tuning the system down the road let me know.. I should be living in Denver later this year, I have my final interviews for this new job next week. We can set the low and high pass filters on the receiver to match the crossover points.. Place an omni mic inside the car and use pink noise to set the EQ and flatten everything out.

chevynut

04-12-2019, 10:00 AM

chevynut

04-12-2019, 10:01 AM

OOPS, sorry I just saw your reply when I posted. Thanks for the confirmation. Let me know when you come to Denver and maybe we can get together.

56Safari

04-12-2019, 10:39 AM

Well I got the 4 gauge cables, terminals, RCA cables, and fuse block ordered. Waiting for input from 56Safari on the impedance issue before I order the amp. But at least I can get the re-wiring going when I get this stuff.

56Safari, I took a close look at the R600x5 amp and I don't see any impedance selector switches on any channels. Do most amps have them? It seems like you just get whatever you get when you hook up the speakers to each channel. Lower impedance means more power. At least that's what makes sense to me. I assume one could even hook up 8 ohm speakers and it will work, but not at full power.

The amp will detect the impedance and operate accordingly... you can hook up an ohm meter to your + and - connections on the speaker and it will read accordingly... In theory you can always hook up a higher ohm speaker and it will still function, but you can't hook up a lower ohm speaker than your amp is rated for (you can, but the amp will overheat almost immediately).

I know I mentioned it earlier but I'm not sure we really discussed it. You will need an 18 gauge "remote wire" going from the back of the Kenwood heat unit to the amplifier to switch it on/off when you turn the keys in the ignition... It's usually blue or blue/white and labeled remote coming out of the stereo harness

chevynut

04-12-2019, 01:33 PM

I know I mentioned it earlier but I'm not sure we really discussed it. You will need an 18 gauge "remote wire" going from the back of the Kenwood heat unit to the amplifier to switch it on/off when you turn the keys in the ignition... It's usually blue or blue/white and labeled remote coming out of the stereo harness

Thanks....yes I saw that remote wire on the plug. Gotta get the amp ordered now. ;)

Gmvette

04-12-2019, 04:15 PM

I have a stereo system in my 57 Nomad that honesty I never use it. The BBC makes the music. My 65 Corvette has no radio at all. We use a wireless Bose feed with our phone on long rides. No wiring necessary and for our ears is excellent sound. In fact when I’m out in the garage it is always playing the oldies.

Still it is impressive with all the audio your Nomad is going to have, but how much will it actually be played?

Is there benefits to big sound systems in the concourse custom shows or is it a personal preference?

chevynut

04-12-2019, 04:30 PM

Still it is impressive with all the audio your Nomad is going to have, but how much will it actually be played?
Is there benefits to big sound systems in the concourse custom shows or is it a personal preference?

I wanted a stereo in my Nomad, something better than a stock AM radio. I could have picked something that fit in the stock opening in the dash, that looked stock, but they sound like crap for the most part, and my car isn't anywhere near stock inside. I listen to the radio or CDs in all my vehicles, whether going around town or on trips. I don't play it loud most of the time.

I didn't intend to upgrade the setup this much but I figure why not do it now? I like the double DIN touchscreen since it fits in my console well and I think it looks nice. I just got convinced to install an amp and probably a subwoofer later. I'll have around $1100 in the whole works and compared to what I have in the car that's mousenuts. :) Most nice cars have good stereo systems.....mine will too.

chevynut

04-17-2019, 07:54 AM

I'm trying to find a simple, small panel mount connector to connect my laptop to my ECU for monitoring and programming on the fly. The interface cable normally goes to the laptop serial port, which is 9 pins, but only 3 pins are actually used by the ECU. The Holley-supplied connector is 4 pin (but only 3 are used) and it's not panel mount. I want to be able to plug into it somewhere on or inside the console in a discrete location. I was looking at plugs and sockets like this which is similar to the one supplied with the ECU....

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/ab/19/44/ab1944e96c8bddf3cae5438ecd6ab3ec.jpg

Then it occurred to me that an audio jack has 3 pins too. They're really small and I think one would work. Dakota Digital uses an audio cable to connect their PAC-2750 fan controller to the VHX computer. My only concern is that it might short two leads together during insertion that aren't supposed to short together. But I think the male pin is specifically designed to prevent that. Is there any reason not to use one for this application?
https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/ba4AAOSwzINbw0UV/s-l500.jpg
https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/yW8AAOSw9kNceZ~l/s-l500.jpg

https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/q60AAOSwVVlcavDx/s-l500.jpg

56Safari

04-17-2019, 10:21 AM

I'm trying to find a simple, small panel mount connector to connect my laptop to my ECU for monitoring and programming on the fly. The interface cable normally goes to the laptop serial port, which is 9 pins, but only 3 pins are actually used by the ECU. The Holley-supplied connector is 4 pin (but only 3 are used) and it's not panel mount. I want to be able to plug into it somewhere on or inside the console in a discrete location. I was looking at plugs and sockets like this which is similar to the one supplied with the ECU....

Then it occurred to me that an audio jack has 3 pins too. They're really small and I think one would work. Dakota Digital uses an audio cable to connect their PAC-2750 fan controller to the VHX computer. My only concern is that it might short two leads together during insertion that aren't supposed to short together. But I think the male pin is specifically designed to prevent that. Is there any reason not to use one for this application?

The plugs are cheap enough you could always put a meter on one as you insert it to see if it shorts. Another option would be a 3 pin XLR connector, it's a bit larger but they will definitely not short out and the connectors lock into place when inserted.

Neutrik makes a large variety of cable connectors and chassis connectors

https://www.neutrik.com/en/products/audio/xlr

chevynut

04-17-2019, 10:35 AM

The plugs are cheap enough you could always put a meter on one as you insert it to see if it shorts.

Thanks that's a good idea. I really think that the narrowed down tip is designed that way to prevent shorting.

Another option would be a 3 pin XLR connector, it's a bit larger but they will definitely not short out and the connectors lock into place when inserted.

Yeah I found several cheap 3-pin connectors but all of them are a lot bigger than an audio connector. I would also want a cover for it to protect it and so it wouldn't show. I really like the idea of having such a small diameter connector for the laptop, like the audio plug. Otherwise I need to hide it better, like inside the console box with a cover on it. Putting it inside the box makes it a lot more difficult to remove the box if needed to get to the ECU.

I think I'll try getting an audio connector pair and see if it will work. Thanks for the info.

chevynut

04-17-2019, 10:43 AM

Here's a great website for connector info...

https://learn.sparkfun.com/tutorials/connector-basics/all

1/8" tip-ring-sleeve (TRS) is very common as the connector for headphones or audio output signals on MP3 players or computers. Some cell phones will provide a 2.5mm tip-ring-ring-sleeve (TRRS) jack for connecting to headphones that also include a microphone for hands-free communications.

The common availability of these connectors and cables makes them a good candidate for general purpose connectivity applications--for instance, long before USB, Texas Instruments graphing calculators (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TI-85) used a 2.5mm TRS connector for a serial programming connector. It should be remembered that tip-sleeve connector types are not designed for carrying power; during insertion, the tip and the sleeve can be momentarily shorted together, which may damage the power supply. The lack of shielding makes them poor candidates for high-speed data, but low speed serial data can be passed through these connectors.

Bitchin'57

04-19-2019, 06:13 AM

Laz, are you getting close to mounting the body onto the chassis?

chevynut

04-20-2019, 09:52 AM

As I get closer to finishing my wiring I realize I'm running into a big problem and not sure what to do about it. Space is getting really tight inside the console. I ran the 4 gauge wire back to the amp along with the 20 gauge remote wire, the 6 RCA cables, and the four 16 gauge front speaker wires inside the console. Also, I'm having to split several wires that go to multiple locations inside the console, such as the dome light power and ground. Then there's a large wire for the backup camera that has to go from the stereo to the rear bumper. There are a lot more wires than I expected to deal with and I am wishing I'd used 20 gauge or even smaller wire for some circuits that are just signals. I probably over-killed wire sizes a lot of places but I used what I had available and was conservative with current rating.

One solution to decrease the bulk of the of wires inside the console would be to run all of the amplifier and speaker wires UNDER the console but that has it's own potential issues. I may have to consider that anyhow. This is like cramming the proverbial 20 pounds of stuff into a 5 pound box :eek:. But wire bulk isn't the only problem....the other one is the number of fuses. I built a fuse panel several years ago with 24 ATO/ATC fuses that I thought was plenty, and was bigger than any panel I saw commercially available. The panel is made up of Packard 4-fuse blocks and it's pretty inefficient as far as space it takes up but it's easy to bus it.

http://www.getfast1.com/assets/images/PER-0800290362.jpg

A big part of the problem is that the cruise control, A/C, mirror, stereo, fan controller, door lock controller, headlight controller, ECM, VHX computer, and keyless entry ALL require TWO power inputs, switched power and constant power. That's 20 fuses alone.

My fuse panel would have been big enough had it not been for all these dual power requirements. Some of them make no sense to me, but some I understand why two power inputs are required.

So adding up all the required fuses if everything was wired up separately comes to 43 fuses! I have already doubled up or even tripled up some of the power wires in the harness and still need 36 fuses. I don't have room to expand my current fuse panel any more and it's almost too crowded to route wires as it is. I am wishing I'd put more of the control modules in the rear of the console where the keyless entry is going to have to reside so I could expand the panel. But that's something I don't want to re-do.

I can still double up some of the power wires but I can't get to 24. So I'm looking at getting a different fuse panel with ATM fuses packed more efficiently. I found a couple of them with 30 fuse capacity that are actually a lot smaller than what I now have partially since the fuses are smaller. My concern is getting all the wires into them and they're not bussed. I don't know how to bus them properly because each contact only accepts one 12 gauge wire and all of my power leads from the relays are 12 gauge which would need to be daisy-chained to individual contacts.

Here's one that accepts 30 fuses and is only 4 1/2" long and 3 3/8" wide......
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/shopping?q=tbn:ANd9GcTnpaeVVXixt4y_xdjxece0CgNJzjJ rrjUPpRpYeT0alIEj_r1bmdTf3V5gomGeZ3S5m9Eww08&usqp=CAE

Have any of you guys used this kind of fuse panel? Any ideas on how to bus it? I have 4 power sections, Retained Accessory Power, Ignition Power, Accessory Power, and Constant Power. The terminals they use are MicroPak 2.8 series.

My other option is to put another ATO fuse panel in the rear of the console to expand the existing one. I have a few more blocks and a lot of contacts and there's plenty of room there. However, that would require running at least one more power lead to the expansion panel and extending a lot of the wires that would go there. Also, I had not planned to make the inside of the rear of the console easily accessible like I'm planning in the front in case I blow a fuse. The problem with the ATM fuse panel above, aside from bussing, is that it's still not quite big enough. I'd feel more comfortable with a 40-fuse panel. So maybe expansion is the answer.:confused:

chevynut

04-20-2019, 09:59 AM

Littelfuse makes this 30 fuse panel but it's not bussed either. Also, with the long mounting legs it's 6" long. It is a nice panel though. I think you have to mount it raised off of the mounting surface, or cut a hole and mount it flush, routing the wires in from the back side of the panel.

https://media.digikey.com/Photos/Littelfuse%20Photos/PDM21001LXM.jpg

55 Rescue Dog

04-20-2019, 03:36 PM

I would think for low current circuits you could combine some together on one fuse, and just run like a 5 amp fuse that will more than protect a even a 20 gauge wire. Personally I love terminal strips whenever possible for connections. Easy to connect and troubleshoot, which you might have to do quite often until debugged.

chevynut

04-20-2019, 07:46 PM

Yes I can combine more circuits, but it also has to make some sense to me. For example, the door lock controller constant power can be combined with the door lock relays and switch. The window controllers can be combined with the window switches and power vent windows. The rarely used horn can be combined with something else that's constantly powered. I plan to do some more of that.

It's just as easy to troubleshoot a fuse panel by removing the fuses and probing the terminal. I don't like exposed screws on terminal strips. I'll plug in one or two fuses at a time after I hook up power to make sure everything works like it's supposed to. Hopefully I won't have much troubleshooting...:D

I almost screwed up yesterday by splicing one orange wire to another, which wasn't the one I wanted. While it wouldn't have affected much, when you have a bundle of wires 1"+ in diameter it's easy to make a bad mistake. I've labeled everything and pull labels off after I terminate the wires. I wish I had more than 13 color choices to work with. Wagoncrazy posted a site a while ago (which I've since bought wire from) that sells every color of wire imaginable with every color of stripes.

chevynut

04-20-2019, 07:57 PM

Pretty sure I've convinced myself that the right answer is to add a fuse panel like the one I have. This is primarily due to the issue of bussing. Here's how they buss the non-bussed panels, which is a mess imo.

https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/ENIAAOSwKJtasBGe/s-l1600.png
I now have 6 blocks of 4 in front, and it's REALLY tight. I may reduce that to 5 blocks (20 fuses), and add 4 or 5 blocks in the rear for a total of 36-40 fuses. That way I'll have a spare slot or two if I ever need them. I'll just have to figure out how to make the rear fuses easily accessible.

WagonCrazy

04-21-2019, 11:54 AM

I vote for putting an additional fuse panel in your rear console. And redesigning that to get access to it easily. Then keep on wiring... :p

chevynut

04-21-2019, 07:12 PM

Thanks Paul for the feedback. I agree that's probably the best choice right now. I took a look at it today and cutting the 6 blocks down to 5, and adding 5 in the rear makes a lot of sense.

Normally one would start with a loaded fuse panel and work out from there to wire the rest of the car. I did it backwards. Since I already had a harness with 22 wires that went through the firewall on the driver's side it seemed to make sense to work from there and bring the wires down to the console. I did some of the harness design on the fly, making drawings as I went. I built the harness from the driver's side to the passenger side, and am now dealing with all the resulting wires going into the console. I hadn't really considered the difficulty of terminating the wires in the fuse panel.

I'm getting there. Hopefully it won't be much longer and I'll be done with it and can move onto something else I need to deal with. Heading to Texas again on Wednesday for a week.

chevynut

04-21-2019, 09:29 PM

I'm finding something really strange as I dive into this power issue. Holley specifies to use a fuse on the constant power to the ECU, but no fuse is specified for the switched power. Dakota Digital says that BOTH the switched and constant power need to be fused on the Door Lock Controller. They also say the constant power to the Headlight/Dome/RAP controller should be fused, but don't say the switched power should be fused. On the DD Fan Controller they say both switched and constant power should be connected to separate 5A fuses. Vintage Air shows a 30A circuit breaker for the blower, compressor clutch and ECU constant power but no fuse on the switched power to the ECU.

So what's the deal on this requirement for switched and constant power? First of all, why can't everything be switched power in the A/C system? I don't need anything to work with the key off. Same with the fan controller...why wouldn't I want switched and constant power to be on the same switched circuit? Why do they even need both switched and constant power to the CONTROLLER? Same with the door lock controller. The keyless entry and door lock switch can still actuate the door lock relays without the Dakota Digital Door Lock Controller powered up. I asked a DD tech about this and as usual he didn't have a clue.

Why would the VHX module and Cruise Control need two different power inputs? I don't need either one to work with the key off. Even the C950 ECM has two power inputs for some reason I don't understand. It doesn't need power to retain program memory. It must have something to do with the way the logic "wakes up" and resets.

Any ideas?

Gmvette

04-22-2019, 06:53 AM

I have vintage air in my 65 Corvette and when I turn off the power at the battery and reconnect it the vintage air goes thru a start up cycle. I know this is not the power door locks but possibly there is a start up cycle associated with your system in a similar way.

In fact the start up cycles the blower and possibly other “stuff”. By the time I’m down the drive way the air is working as normal.

I always park my classic vehicles in the garage power off at battery.

chevynut

04-22-2019, 10:23 AM

Gmvette, I think there's a legit reason to have two separate power connections for the VA. In fact, there's three of them. There's a 30A breaker that the compressor clutch relay is connected to, as is the blower fan. So the switched power obviously enables the ECU that controls the compressor and fan. But one of my questions is why isn't the switched power fused?

Few of the other items really have high current going to them so the twin power connections don't make sense. The alarm/keyless entry system needs to function with the key off so I can understand it having constant power, and it needs to know when the key is turned off. The DD controllers don't need separate power, imo so I don't know why they do that. It's not hard to design a power-on reset to get the logic into the right state when the key is turned on. The fan controller only needs constant power if you want the fans to run when the ignition is off....I don't. I couldn't get a straight answer from DD as to whether or not I could just hook both power connections to switched power. Why would you need constant power to a cruise control?

Anyhow, I've combined fuses and I'm down to 28. I've allocated 20 fuses in front, including 2 spare slots, and 16 fuses in the rear, including 6 spare slots for 36 total available fuse slots in case I need to add something. The rear panel will be all constant power with the front one split up between RAP, Ignition power, ACC power, and constant power. Now I just have to wire it up. ;)

WagonCrazy

04-22-2019, 03:04 PM

You my friend...are in wiring jail. :razz:

55 Rescue Dog

04-22-2019, 03:29 PM

It will be interesting to see what the key-off current drain will be? I have a disconnect my C5 battery if it is going to sit for a couple weeks, but then the fuel trims, etc. have to relearn. Better than killing the battery though. It always makes me nervous with any modern car with all of the fire potential key-off power they require. On my 2 vehicles without computers I disconnect the battery every time I park them, even though the only potential power is to the ignition switch, lights, and starter. Another good thing about carbs. :cool:

chevynut

04-22-2019, 08:39 PM

You my friend...are in wiring jail. :razz:

Jail? It feels more like wiring hell! :D

I'm making progress and now that I got over the fuse panel hump maybe I can move forward. Sure wish I understood the two power supply deal, but I'll go with it even if it doesn't make sense. Today I separated the wires into groups and untangled them and things look a little less confusing. I have to put a couple more connectors onto the wiring going to the valence halves from the console.

WagonCrazy

04-23-2019, 08:22 AM

Jail? It feels more like wiring hell!

With jail...you eventually get out. With Hell...you're in for good.

I'd say you're turning the corner on another highly technical and thought inducing step here (electrical). But done well...it pays off later on in the enjoyment factor. Remember, if it's not fun to drive and be in...you won't drive it. So keep on doing it "right" and this will pay off big time. ;)

WagonCrazy

04-23-2019, 09:37 AM

Sure wish I understood the two power supply deal, but I'll go with it even if it doesn't make sense.

That seems highly unlike you Laszlo. Your questions are good ones, that I can't answer either.

As long as youve got a fuse in the circuit somewhere (for keeping the damage minimized upon short circuiting), then my logic says you are OK with either source of electricity (switched or constant battery). But you are certainly way ahead of me in knowledge of electrical circuitry.

chevynut

04-23-2019, 01:12 PM

That seems highly unlike you Laszlo. Your questions are good ones, that I can't answer either.

I have a pretty good understanding of electronics and electricity and even designed electronic equipment and other things in my career. I built a microcontroller that we used to run a robot for my senior engineering project eons ago. The real issue is that I can't even get the manufacturer to give me straight answers on their stuff. I recently called DD and asked how much current the "DOME" output of their dome light controller could sink and the tech had no clue. He didn't even offer to go ask the engineer who designed it. I told him I wanted to turn on several lights with it and needed to know the limits, and he said use a relay. He said the controller might turn on a couple of lights....didn't even ask if they were incandescent or LED. Seriously? This is a "soft dimming" module and if I used a relay it would defeat the purpose of it. I told him the output had to be some kind of transistor/MOSFET and if he could tell me the type I could look it up. He had no idea. Then I called them again and asked about the "warn" output on the door lock controller, and exactly how it functioned. The manual doesn't give a good explanation. I asked if it was speed sensitive and if it reset below a certain speed.....he didn't know. I asked why their modules had the dual power supply requirement and he said that's the way they're designed. So I asked why I couldn't hook up both of the fan controller power pins to switched power and he said he wasn't sure that would work. The DD techs are clueless and I wonder who hires these guys. And in fact it's not only DD. Autoloc is just as bad.

As long as youve got a fuse in the circuit somewhere (for keeping the damage minimized upon short circuiting), then my logic says you are OK with either source of electricity (switched or constant battery).

The question isn't WHICH source to use, they want you to use BOTH sources for some reason. Like I said, it makes sense for something that needs to know when the key is off and has to function with it off, but why does a cruise control (sold by DD) need power when the engine isn't even running? Why does a fan controller need power when you want the fans NOT to run with the key off? It's that stuff that these guys can't answer. I'm pretty sure they'd work connected to one supply, but at this point I don't want to take the chance of it not working. Oh, and Vintage Air doesn't even show, specify, or supply a fuse in their switched power lead. I guess they expect something else to protect that circuit. SMH.

Anyhow.....I got the rear fuse panel power wired up today, and plan to tackle the front one. Then I can start connecting the individual circuit wires. ;)

chevynut

04-23-2019, 10:46 PM

This afternoon I got the front fuse panel all terminated and wired, and it was a lot easier than I expected it to be. I'm glad I reduced the size to 20 fuses because that gave me more room to route wires. The hard part was dealing with the larger wires and getting them all to fit underneath the panel. I realized that I went way over-kill with some wires like my ignition switch power wire because which hardly carries any current now, only to some relay coils. I did that in a few other places too. I'll probably use LED headlights but I wired it for H4 Halogen bulbs just in case. The LEDs only draw 1.1A on low beam and 1.5A on high beam when operated separately. At least I won't get much voltage drop. http://www.trifivechevys.com/images/smilies/biggrin-new.png

chevynut

04-23-2019, 11:02 PM

I think I'm going to add a console box light (that was an oversight :geek:), and a 12V cooling fan to draw air through the console to cool the Holley ECM and over the amp under the rear seat. The amp needs a minimum of 1" airspace above it and that's what I have. The amp is a lot thicker than I thought it would be at 2" and I thought I had more room under the rear seat. Building the mounting bracket for it was a pain since it pretty much had to sit on the floor, and I didn't want any screws going through the floorpan so it attaches to the rear seat bottom frame.

I ordered a few auxiliary outlets with audio connections and USB so I can plug in an iphone, ipod or whatever and charge my phone. There's also a couple of switches I need to figure out a location for that are used to set the VHX computer, start a datalog in the ECM, and a valet switch for the alarm system. The alarm also has a blinking LED when it's armed so that has to go somewhere. Lots of little stuff like that to figure out. I don't think there's room for cupholders anywhere. :eek:

Gmvette

04-24-2019, 12:31 PM

Gmvette

04-24-2019, 12:43 PM

This afternoon I got the front fuse panel all terminated and wired, and it was a lot easier than I expected it to be. I'm glad I reduced the size to 20 fuses because that gave me more room to route wires. The hard part was dealing with the larger wires and getting them all to fit underneath the panel. I realized that I went way over-kill with some wires like my ignition switch power wire because which hardly carries any current now, only to some relay coils. I did that in a few other places too. I'll probably use LED headlights but I wired it for H4 Halogen bulbs just in case. The LEDs only draw 1.1A on low beam and 1.5A on high beam when operated separately. At least I won't get much voltage drop. :-D

How big a relay are you using for the starter solenoid. I’m running a 50 amp relay triggered off the ignition switch to supply the starter solenoid full voltage, been ok so far. But now not sure..........

chevynut

04-24-2019, 01:50 PM

How big a relay are you using for the starter solenoid. I’m running a 50 amp relay triggered off the ignition switch to supply the starter solenoid full voltage, been ok so far. But now not sure..........

All of my mini relays are SPDT and 50 amps on the NO side. These are the ones I'm using... https://www.waytekwire.com/item/75311/TE-Connectivity-V23234-A0001-X032/. My micro relays are all 35 amp and I should have used more of them instead of the mini relays for some things. There's places I'm only switching a few milliamps.:p

A starter solenoid only takes around 10-20 amps depending on the specific starter. I wired mine with 14 gauge from the relay to the solenoid.

chevynut

04-24-2019, 02:15 PM

Are you going to have separate charging and audio inputs for your phone? The reason I ask, in our passenger car while trying to charge the phone it wants to interrupt the Sirus radio. Maybe I’m just too stupid, and not setting it up correctly.

My stereo receiver has a TRS audio jack and a USB cable on it. I bought one of these to see if I could use it somehow to bring those connections to where I can use them.

https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/myYAAOSwG6VcpHvD/s-l500.jpg

55 Rescue Dog

04-24-2019, 02:20 PM

While your at it, unless your battery disconnect is quickly accessible, you might consider putting in a push button operated remote disconnect.

chevynut

04-24-2019, 06:34 PM

While your at it, unless your battery disconnect is quickly accessible, you might consider putting in a push button operated remote disconnect.

Why? I have a Moroso disconnect switch near the battery behind the right rear tire if I want to disconnect the battery.

55 Rescue Dog

04-25-2019, 06:51 AM

Why? I have a Moroso disconnect switch near the battery behind the right rear tire if I want to disconnect the battery.
So you could immediately shut down your whole electrical system right from the drivers seat if needed, with a simple switch and a latching disconnect.

Five Seven

04-25-2019, 09:22 AM

I am a little late to this discussion but your questioning the fuse strategy is spot on. I have a VA unit and the hot water solenoid is tied to the switched power and not properly fused. I have an older system with the hot water valve that remains powered when the heater is off and gets very hot. A shit design. As you would expect the solenoid failed last week and I had smoke and flames, the whole nine yards. No fuses blew.

Right or wrong I have the valve mounted under my dash and was unable to reach it or put out the fire. Luckily after shutting things down it burned itself out before causing a major fire.

They now sell a kit to replace that valve with a servo and eliminate the heat source, but still and unprotected 12v lead.

A fire extinguisher is going to find its way into my trunk.

55 Rescue Dog

04-25-2019, 12:52 PM

In this car I put the disconnect in easy reach right behind the seat, and can be reached from outside too. I added an easy to grab fire extinguisher after I found out I had been driving it a while with an unknown fuel leak. Every electrical connection is subject to an overheating potential, and it will NOT blow a fuse. I wish production cars had an emergency disconnect. Every machine I have worked on did. I also have a ignition kill switch in the center of the console I can hit if I let someone drive my car, and they do something stupid. This car only has 12 circuits on it though, and no computer. It's just a hot rod.
96729673

chevynut

04-25-2019, 09:27 PM

There are millions of cars built every year and if bad connections were causing fires they'd be using some sort of emergency disconnect that the driver could access to shut down electrical power. The fact that they don't use them tells me it's not a big problem. The issue can only happen when there's high enough currents to cause high power dissipation at a bad connection, and with GXL/TXL wire insulation fires are unlikely to happen in that scenario. It's not hard to make a good tight connection and it would have to be pretty loose to raise resistance enough to get hot. That's why you don't see this sort of thing happening much.

A bigger concern would be an unprotected wire shorting to ground. With no fuse to blow, the wire would literally get red hot and could start a fire if there was anything combustible nearby like a plastic wire conduit or plastic clamp. That's why I think it's stupid that VA doesn't specify a fuse on the switched A/C ECU wire. I will have one.

I have everything fused at some point, and fuses get smaller as my circuits branch. If any wire shorts, a fuse will blow before the wire gets hot. I will make sure all my connections are tight and that should take care of any potential problems. Usually a bad connection will show up as a device not working properly before it causes any other problems.

chevynut

05-10-2019, 03:56 PM

Today it seems like I made some good progress on wiring. I've been working on it almost every day except I've been busy with frames/clips, seat mounts, and a lot of other stuff the past week or so.

I'm still trying to figure out where to mount switches for the VHX gauges, the keyless entry/alarm, and a couple other things. I think I'm going to put them right below the stereo along with a USB and AUX jack. I installed the stereo to make sure everything fit....it didn't.

The stereo was deeper than I remember and comes close to the bottom of the console. It looks like I placed everything so it would clear, but the new dual fuse module for the stereo didn't allow the stereo to drop in all the way, so it will have to be moved. Also, the 1"+ diameter wire bundle on the driver's side is too thick to allow the stereo to clear. I only have about 5/8" to 3/4" for a wire channel, so I'll have to address that. I'll probably put a piece of angle there to constrain the harness and make it oblong so it fits, and the stereo clears.

I have a few loose wires for the switches, driver's side valence which includes a couple of switches I still have to mount, the VSS wires that I have to add a connector to, and the backup light wires that need a connector too. I have all the power wires run back to the secondary fuse panel, which is mounted. I also built a mount for the cutout controller which is laying next to the console. It will be mounted on the passenger side of the console behind the box. The keyless entry will go on the driver's side in about the same place.

I'm a little worried about my keyless entry because I bought it a long time ago. I was looking for some tech info on it and can't find anything online. I have the owner's "manual" which is two pages and there's a lot of stuff they don't tell you about the operation. I may end up getting a newer one with 3-channels, since they're pretty cheap. Not sure yet.

Here's a couple pics....the long wire ties are temporary since I may have to add another wire or two. I think I can see light at the end of the tunnel. :)

9731

9732

Here's the amp mounted under the rear seat....

9733

chevynut

05-10-2019, 04:18 PM

I decided that rather than try to put oval lights on the console that match my door lights, I'll just add some footwell LED lights. These will go under the dash at the top of the console where you can't see them. Also, I'll add a pair under the rear seat so they light up the rear footwell but are not in direct view, and a pair back in the cargo area, also hidden from view. I looked at all sorts of LED lights and these seem to work the best for this application. They're about 3 3/4" long with 6 LEDs.

https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/NyMAAOSwn9VaU5gW/s-l500.jpg

The 3-4 momentary switches will probably be these....either black or polished stainless. The black ring in this pic is a light and I will either go with green or blue The lights would come on with the headlights.
https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/jWMAAOSwmudaRcSz/s-l500.jpg
This is the USB port I'm going to try to add in that location. These will connect to the stereo USB and AUX ports. I will add a couple more USB ports for charging elsewhere...

https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/XyUAAOSwC5Rcd5yF/s-l1600.jpg

WagonCrazy

05-11-2019, 07:01 AM

Forward progress here... Dang that's alot of wiring and circuits to configure.:p

BamaNomad

05-11-2019, 07:12 AM

Forward progress here... Dang that's alot of wiring and circuits to configure.:p

Once he gets all that stuff wired, he'll have to wait for a future higher output Alternator to make it all work... :) J/K...

chevynut

05-11-2019, 01:26 PM

Once he gets all that stuff wired, he'll have to wait for a future higher output Alternator to make it all work... :) J/K...

I have a CS130 160A alternator now which I think will be fine. Most of my wiring is low-current signals and the only real power hogs are the cooling fans, A/C blower and clutch, and ignition coil. The brake pump, horns, power windows, and power seats take fairly high current but only for short periods. The stereo amp at FULL POWER is something like 500 watts, or around 40 amps but I'll never use it at that level. I was surprised how much current the HEI ignition coil takes. I'll probably be at around half of the alternator capacity most of the time.

chevynut

05-11-2019, 01:53 PM

So I ended up with 40 ATO fuse locations (27 used so far), three MIDI fuses, 32 relay sockets (29 relays used so far :eek:), 5 circuit breakers, a bunch of connectors, splices, terminals, heat shrink, and what seems like 6 miles and 15 colors of wire. It'll be a miracle if all of this works first time. :D

I'm going to try testing as many circuits as I can with a battery using one or two fuses at a time. The bad news is that I have to remove a lot of this, because Larry wants the console out of the car to finish it. The harness will stay there and I'll have to slide the console out while leaving the modules, fuse panels, etc in place.

Gmvette

05-14-2019, 08:53 AM

I have a CS130 160A alternator now which I think will be fine. Most of my wiring is low-current signals and the only real power hogs are the cooling fans, A/C blower and clutch, and ignition coil. The brake pump, horns, power windows, and power seats take fairly high current but only for short periods. The stereo amp at FULL POWER is something like 500 watts, or around 40 amps but I'll never use it at that level. I was surprised how much current the HEI ignition coil takes. I'll probably be at around half of the alternator capacity most of the time.

How bad is the current drain with the HEI ignition coil? Are you referring to basic HEI or is this with some kind of ignition box? Should wiring to HEI coil be with heavier wire (16/14 gauge) and a 30 or 40 amp relay rather than directly thru ignition switch?

I’ve read else where heavier wire feed to the coil should be entertained.

chevynut

05-14-2019, 09:20 AM

How bad is the current drain with the HEI ignition coil? Are you referring to basic HEI or is this with some kind of ignition box? Should wiring to HEI coil be with heavier wire (16/14 gauge) and a 30 or 40 amp relay rather than directly thru ignition switch?

I’ve read else where heavier wire feed to the coil should be entertained.

My research shows that the coil can draw upwards of 20-25 amps. I'm actually using a MSD Blaster coil (no ignition box) with a GM computer-controlled distributor and I'm feeding it from a 25A fuse with 12 gauge wire. Virtually nothing of any significant power on my Nomad goes through the ignition switch. The starter solenoid, IGN power, and ACC power are all switched by 50A relays. The ignition switch itself will be on a 5A fuse.

scorpion1110

05-14-2019, 02:45 PM

55 Rescue Dog

05-14-2019, 04:52 PM

My research shows that the coil can draw upwards of 20-25 amps. I'm actually using a MSD Blaster coil (no ignition box) with a GM computer-controlled distributor and I'm feeding it from a 25A fuse with 12 gauge wire. Virtually nothing of any significant power on my Nomad goes through the ignition switch. The starter solenoid, IGN power, and ACC power are all switched by 50A relays. The ignition switch itself will be on a 5A fuse.
Don't forget when it comes down to fuses, that the instant pull-in current of a relay is 300-500% higher than the constant hold-in current. A 5A fuse might not be enough, but time delay fuse would handle it though. A fuse is suppose to protect constant current for the wire size is all, not just the device.

Rick_L

05-14-2019, 05:23 PM

The typical automotive relay pull in current is really low, but as you point out the holding current is even lower. 5A is way generous.

55 Rescue Dog

05-14-2019, 05:28 PM

The typical automotive relay pull in current is really low, but as you point out the holding current is even lower. 5A is way generous.

http://www.industrial-electronics.com/output_devices_amplifiers_valves_relays_variable-frequency_drives_stepper_motors_servomotors/Pull-In_Hold-In_Current.html

Gmvette

05-15-2019, 08:06 AM

My research shows that the coil can draw upwards of 20-25 amps. I'm actually using a MSD Blaster coil (no ignition box) with a GM computer-controlled distributor and I'm feeding it from a 25A fuse with 12 gauge wire. Virtually nothing of any significant power on my Nomad goes through the ignition switch. The starter solenoid, IGN power, and ACC power are all switched by 50A relays. The ignition switch itself will be on a 5A fuse.

By you using 12 wire on the coil at 25 amp draw is that overly conservative? Maybe worded another way, is 16 or 14 gauge wire adequate? I like the idea of a relay.

Another question is fuse on the coil line required and wouldn’t that reduce the current? I’ve not seen any older cars with a fuse in this line feed as OEM. I do appreciate you sharing the electrical on your car as this is an area that I have lesser knowledge.

Rick_L

05-15-2019, 08:30 AM

Chevy used a minimum of 12 gauge wire on HEI ignitions, I think I've seen 10 gauge also. They do it for a good reason.

Fuses won't reduce current unless they do their job and blow when there is a wiring fault, which is what they're supposed to do.

You're right, most cars with a standalone ignition system don't have a fuse on the ignition on the switch feed. On the other hand most EFI stuff often has multiple fuses on the switch feed.

chevynut

05-15-2019, 08:40 AM

The typical automotive relay pull in current is really low, but as you point out the holding current is even lower. 5A is way generous.

Yes, the 50A relays I'm using draw about 140mA coil current each. The ignition switch only triggers 2 of them when starting (solenoid, IGN) and only two when running (IGN, ACC) for a total of 280mA for the relay coils. So a 5A fuse is really overkill for that purpose. I may be using HALO DRLs and they will be powered off the ACC terminal of the ignition switch as well (off during start). They draw 350mA each for another .70A. So total current through the ignition switch is only like 1A. If I decide to power something else with it, it's simple to change a fuse. I used a 12 gauge wire for the ignition switch power just in case. LOL! :)

chevynut

05-15-2019, 08:52 AM

By you using 12 wire on the coil at 25 amp draw is that overly conservative? Maybe worded another way, is 16 or 14 gauge wire adequate? I like the idea of a relay.

Part of the reason you use a wire larger than you need is to reduce voltage drop. The 12 gauge wire is overkill for 25A but GM used 12 GA for HEI, and I read that AAW uses 10 gauge for the coil circuit. So I just followed their lead. I also read where a lot of guys used 14 gauge with no problems. I actually think my Holley EFI harness was 14 gauge but it was too short so I cut it off shorter and used 12 gauge wire to extend it, which was the only large pink wire I had. ;)

Another question is fuse on the coil line required and wouldn’t that reduce the current? I’ve not seen any older cars with a fuse in this line feed as OEM. I do appreciate you sharing the electrical on your car as this is an area that I have lesser knowledge.

Fuses don't reduce current, they're basically a "short circuit" and are just a piece of metal that melts at a specific current. I read somewhere that you shouldn't fuse the HEI circuit, but saw no justification for that and it's actually protected by the fusible link at the starter.....so there really is a fuse. GM probably wanted to eliminate a large fuse. Why wouldn't you fuse everything you can? I see no downside as long as the fuse isn't blowing all the time. I could have just connected it to one of my 50A breakers too but decided to go with a fuse. Typical HEI coil current is much lower than 25A, which looks like worst-case. I think what I did is conservative, while still protecting the wiring which is what a fuse is supposed to do.

Pretty much everything I have is double or triple fused.....power comes into the car from the starter via a 4 gauge cable, and goes through an 80A fuse to my amp, and a 100A fuse to multiple 50A breakers and one 30A breaker. The 50A breakers supply power to the cooling fans and the fuse panels which are broken up into sections for constant power, IGN power, ACC power, and retained ACC power. The 30A breaker supplies power directly to the A/C, starter solenoid, and seats. Since the seats rarely get adjusted, I think that's safe. Yes, it's overkill, but I didn't want to use one power distribution block with all the wires stacked on it. I could easily have gotten away with one breaker for the fans, and one or two for everything else but again it's hard to put a lot of 12 gauge wires onto a breaker stud. And I would rather have room for expansion if needed.

55 Rescue Dog

05-15-2019, 02:44 PM

Rick_L

05-15-2019, 04:07 PM

Well that's true because a fuse heats up as the current increases and eventually melts. But in the big picture the resistance and voltage drop of a fuse is rather small. Just as the current draw on a relay coil.

chevynut

05-15-2019, 07:38 PM

A fuse adds resistance, and a voltage drop to a circuit which is how they work I think. That's the difference between a 1 amp fuse, and a 100 amp fuse is the current capacity of the element and melts when current is too high. If it had no resistance it would never blow. It is the resistance of the fuse that causes it to heat up with current, and melt the element. With no fuse, then it would be the resistance of the wire that melts instead. Every electrical issue always comes down to OHM's law. He was a very smart guy 192 years ago named George.

Of course a fuse adds resistance....every inch of copper wire adds resistance......every connection adds resistance. But the resistance of a fuse is small in the whole scheme of things in a circuit. The point is they're made of a low melting point metal so a small amount of heating melts it. I don't know how many watts it takes to heat up the fuse to where it melts, but from a practical point of view it's irrelevant.

Rick_L

05-15-2019, 07:53 PM

Resistance of a conductor is usually stated in ohms/ft or some other length. Voltage drop is stated similarly because V=IR. The length of the conductor in a fuse is very short, its resistance and voltage drop are negligible.

chevynut

05-15-2019, 08:06 PM

chevynut

05-22-2019, 02:12 PM

55 Rescue Dog

05-22-2019, 02:51 PM

Post is worthless without pictures?

chevynut

05-22-2019, 02:53 PM

Post is worthless without pictures?

Post is worthless if you haven't installed one.

Gmvette

05-22-2019, 03:37 PM

I just looked at a spec sheet for Littelfuse ATO/ATC fuses. For a 10A ATO fuse the typical resistance is 7.7 mOhm. That's under 8 THOUSANDTHS of an OHM. Also, as the fuse current rating rises, the resistance decreases, as expected. A 40A ATO fuse has under 1.5 mOhm of resistance. Voltage drops are therefore negligible, with a 40A ATO fuse having under 60 mV drop in a 12V circuit at full current rating. Hardly anything to even consider in circuit design.

http://www.bcae1.com/images/257.pdf

I follow and understand you on the fuse and ohm readings. But I just have a problem understanding how a fuse and it’s tiny cross section can pass current as well as a big 12 gauge wire would. I have the feeling it’s like a garden water hose with a kink in it. Maybe I’m just dense when it comes to sparky stuff.

55 Rescue Dog

05-22-2019, 03:41 PM

Post is worthless if you haven't installed one.
I never will, was just curious as to what you were talking about? Maybe everyone else does though.

55 Rescue Dog

05-22-2019, 03:45 PM

Gmvette

05-22-2019, 03:55 PM

Has anyone successfully installed a Vintage Air glove box in a 55 or 56? That thing seems like it was made for some other car because the angles are all wrong and nothing fits worth a damn. I'm almost at the point of throwing it in the trash and making a new one, but I don't really want to do that if I don't have to.

I don’t have air in my Nomad. But I did make a metal glove box for it. I hid a Radio CD player mounted in the forward wall of it. Original radio is just a face. No heater/defroster box (perfect weather car only). My windshield wiper motor is reconfigured so it’s mounted under the dash to allow distributor room under the hood.

I just used the original glove box flattered out as a pattern for the metal box. If room is a premium as it was in my 65 Corvette with vintage air the glove box is about half as deep. But I must say V/A did a nice job having a plastic glove box that fit quite well.

Gmvette

05-22-2019, 04:10 PM

Fuses are self-contained protection, and designed to only let only enough current to be safely carried in the wire, and hopefully avoiding the conductor becoming a really big fuse instead.

ok, But how does the very small cross section of the fuse not act like a small gauge wire in the middle of the 12 gauge wire necessary to flow amperage? Why does it not act like a small section of small gauge wire in the big 12 gauge wire circuit? Because of the tiny cross section of a fuse is not amperage/current choked down? It would almost be like saying the wire cross section has nothing to do with current carrying capacity. Sorry but I still don’t understand.

Rick_L

05-22-2019, 05:13 PM

Some things you just have to accept as the way it is. Having said that, a "fusible link" is just what you described. It's a short length of smaller gauge wire spliced into the conductor. For instance a fusible link for a 10 gauge wire might have a short length of 14 or 16 gauge. Just like the fuse, there won't be an appreciable voltage drop in normal operation, but the conductor will melt if the current gets too high.

chevynut

05-22-2019, 07:15 PM

I follow and understand you on the fuse and ohm readings. But I just have a problem understanding how a fuse and it’s tiny cross section can pass current as well as a big 12 gauge wire would. I have the feeling it’s like a garden water hose with a kink in it. Maybe I’m just dense when it comes to sparky stuff.

You don't need a big 12 gauge wire to carry the current. You need the 12 gauge wire to reduce voltage drop at higher currents. Remember as Rick said above, wire resistance is ohms per foot. The longer the wire the more resistance, hence the need for a larger diameter. You typically want less than about 3% voltage drop in a well-designed circuit. A fuse is very short and has very little resistance because it's short. A small wire will take a surprisingly high amount of current before it melts. Here's a table that shows that a 12 gauge wire will actually take 235A before it fuses, or melts. A 20 gauge wire will take almost 60A.

https://www.powerstream.com/wire-fusing-currents.htm

chevynut

05-22-2019, 08:14 PM

Here's what the VA glove box is supposed to look like installed. I attached the bottom to the hinge and tried to put the top part in and they don't come anywhere near to going together It looks to me that my bottom angles a lot further downward than this picture shows, although there are no screws in the one in the pic. Maybe I need to bend it up to mate it with the top of the box but I wouldn't think I'd have to bend my dash to make it fit. Just looking for advice from someone who's installed one.

http://www.hotrodders.com/gallery/data/3537/DD_Controller_in_glove_box.jpg

Tabasco

05-23-2019, 04:20 AM

I haven't tried to install my VA glove compartment yet. But it doesen't surprise me that it doesen't fit. Nothing on the VA Sure Fit AC seems to fit without modification. Even the drain hose was too short. I had to buy a longer hose so it wouldn't just drip down on the exhaust.

I'll be watching to see how you get this glove box figured out before I try mine.

BamaNomad

05-23-2019, 06:05 AM

chevynut

05-23-2019, 07:46 AM

The VA glovebox replacement is essentially worthless; all it is is a shield to hide the mess the VA system creates under the dash an is worthless as far as 'holding' anything (like important papers)... :( I threw mine away. I'd rather look into the guts under the dash than that thing...

Well I guess I'd rather have something there besides a hole where you have to look at the vent hoses and wiring. I don't really care about storage space because my console box is pretty big and can contain anything I need to store in the car. The underside of the dash in these cars wasn't really meant to hold a big evaporator, and I think VA did a pretty good job of getting one under there. I'm going to put something there, whether it's the VA glove box or something else.

Gmvette

05-23-2019, 10:13 AM

Your photo looks as if the “box” was taller you could fit it. Use the box to cut up and make to fit. Then when you have a reasonable pattern from the cut up box make a totally new one that will fit. I understand you are not getting what you paid for but with your “craftsmanship” it will fit good and look as it should.

Let V/A know that the piece they are selling is NG. V/A has been very responsive to me on an issue I had with a faulty thermostat and they sent me a replacement pronto.

Rick_L

05-23-2019, 10:34 AM

VA has been providing the same "doesn't fit" glovebox for 55-56 cars for about 20 years, maybe longer. As you say, they are a responsive company on many issues but this is not one of them.

chevynut

05-23-2019, 12:16 PM

Your photo looks as if the “box” was taller you could fit it.

That's not my car. It's a pic I found online.

55 Rescue Dog

05-23-2019, 02:27 PM

Most OE ones on many different cars is just fuzzy cardboard. I would just use the VA one as a pattern and come up with something simple, or just keep the door locked. Since you don't need a glove compartment, just put flat plate behind the door, and stick your picture on it, or something like a picture of the inside of a full compartment. :)

chevynut

05-23-2019, 09:27 PM

I actually like the plastic VA glove box.....if it would fit. I think it looks nice in the picture above. I may try heating and bending the lower part of it so it fits the glove box hinge better, or make a sheetmetal "adapter" that it screws to. We're heading to northwest Washington for a week so I have time to think about it. :D

I've ordered a bunch of stuff to try to finish up this electrical work.....switches, indicator lights, etc. The detail is as hard as building the harness. I've been tying up loose ends, added a couple of wires here and there, and have the rear fuse panel all wired up. I've added the connectors for the footwell light wires, VSS wires, cutout wires, and completed the wiring of switch connectors on the valence. I'm chicken to cut out the valence holes for the switches because I'm not sure how I'm going to finish the valence yet...paint or leather. Leather will require a bigger opening to wrap it around. I may just make them smaller now and open them up if we cover them with leather.

I still have to figure out how to interlock my hood release and RLO and add a connector to the wires that go to the RLO solenoid. Aside from that all I have left to hook up is the keyless entry/alarm, amp, and a couple of grounds. There's something like 18 or 20 wires that go to the keyless entry and they're all accounted for. :)

When I ordered my last batch of laser cut parts for our C4 conversion frames I had them cut some parts for mounting my switches. I designed some plates that will be epoxied to the back of the valence, and retainers for the switches. I welded some studs onto the plates that are used to hold the switch retainers in place. I also found some new connectors and terminals from a Chinese source that look like OEM tooling....probably black market :eek:.

9738

9739

9740

chevynut

05-23-2019, 09:51 PM

Here's what I'm trying to do with my hood release and reverse lockout (RLO)....

My electric hood release uses a large solenoid and cable, and I'm operating it with a relay. That relay coil is powered by a switched power source, and the other side is grounded by the keyless entry. So if there's no power to the relay, the keyless entry can't operate the relay. The hood can be opened with the key fob, so I want to interlock the hood release relay so it can't get power if the car is moving, so it can't be accidentally opened.

The RLO solenoid needs power to allow easy shifting into reverse. Again, I want to interlock this so that if the car is moving, the RLO solenoid can't get power.

The Dakota Digital PAC-3500 door lock controller has a "WARN" output that is used with suicide door pins. It has a VSS input that can lock the doors at a specific speed that's programmable. The WARN output goes low (ground) if either of the suicide pin switches are not grounded, indicating that one or both of the doors are un-latched. Below a programmed speed, the WARN output goes high (+12V).

I am trying to use that WARN signal to activate a relay, such that power is interrupted to the RLO and hood release when WARN is active. So at a specific speed, the normally closed relay contacts will open, removing the power from the RLO solenoid and the hood release relay.

I talked to DD about the details of the operation of the WARN signal, and didn't really get the answers I needed so this is what I'm going to try to do. One thing I am unsure of is whether I want the RLO solenoid always powered below a certain speed. It only takes about 1A to actuate, but I would rather only actuate it when I actually want to go into reverse. But I'm not sure how to accomplish that. I think the transmission has to be IN reverse before the backup light switch is actuated, or I could use it. Another way I can think of doing it is adding a switch inside the shifter, so the switch closes when the shifter is pushed into the reverse gate, all the way to the right (T56). That way, the RLO solenoid would only get power below a certain speed AND if I wanted to go into reverse.

I know some guys use the brake light switch to power the RLO but I'm not sure that's the right thing to do either. Although it would be easier than a switch in the shifter. Any other ideas how to do that interlocking?

WagonCrazy

05-24-2019, 08:21 AM

I had to read your post twice to follow you and you still lost me. That doesn't mean you are doing anything wrong here, just that I have to think harder to keep up with you...

I am trying to use that WARN signal to activate a relay, such that power is interrupted to the RLO and hood release when WARN is active. So at a specific speed, the normally closed relay contacts will open, removing the power from the RLO solenoid and the hood release relay. That makes sense. So the default operation here is that both are powered when vehicle speed is say...less than 1mph. When it's over 1mph, it would result in the hood release and RLO relay "loosing power" and then neither work at all.

One thing I am unsure of is whether I want the RLO solenoid always powered below a certain speed. It only takes about 1A to actuate, but I would rather only actuate it when I actually want to go into reverse. But I'm not sure how to accomplish that. I think the transmission has to be IN reverse before the backup light switch is actuated, or I could use it. Another way I can think of doing it is adding a switch inside the shifter, so the switch closes when the shifter is pushed into the reverse gate, all the way to the right (T56). That way, the RLO solenoid would only get power below a certain speed AND if I wanted to go into reverse.

Hmm...so you don't want that RLO to be activated until you physically push the lever all the way to the right (into the reverse spot)? What's wrong with just leaving it always powered (meaning able to physically move the shift lever into reverse) when less than 1mph? Why the 2 step approach as you are suggesting?

chevynut

05-29-2019, 12:18 PM

So the default operation here is that both are powered when vehicle speed is say...less than 1mph. When it's over 1mph, it would result in the hood release and RLO relay "loosing power" and then neither work at all.

Yes that's basically it....I'd disable power to the RLO and the Hood release at some pre-set speed. It will probably be over 1 mph because it has to be the same speed that the door locks operate..like 10-15 MPH.

I also have access to the VSS signal so I could build a circuit that disables the power at almost any speed. I think I could use something like a LM555 timer circuit to do that, or just built a discrete circuit using a capacitor and resistor and maybe an op-amp. I'm going to try the "WARN" signal first and see how that goes.

Hmm...so you don't want that RLO to be activated until you physically push the lever all the way to the right (into the reverse spot)? What's wrong with just leaving it always powered (meaning able to physically move the shift lever into reverse) when less than 1mph? Why the 2 step approach as you are suggesting?

Because 1 MPH isn't really practical since it's the "WARN " signal would trigger at the same speed as the door lock signal locks the doors. Also, I'd not want the RLO powered all the time under that speed or switching back and forth if I'm in slow traffic. I'm on vacation in Washington and thought about this for a few days. I decided to use the "WARN" signal AND the brake light signal for this. So I would have to be under a certain speed AND have the brakes on for the RLO to activate. I could use the clutch but I'd have to add another switch on it since my clutch switch activates the starter solenoid when cranking. So the brake light switch would activate the RLO at under around 10-15 MPH. I figure that whenever I'm going into reverse I'd have the brake pedal depressed as well as the clutch. But at least if I have the brakes on and downshift from 6th to 5th I can't go to Reverse at high speed. At low speeds I'll be in the lower gear range and hitting reverse wouldn't be much of a concern. Using the brake switch is a lot easier than putting a switch in the shifter too, although I think that's the best solution to prevent cycling of the RLO solenoid.

55 Rescue Dog

05-29-2019, 03:07 PM

How do they control the lockout in the C5 Corvette? On my C5 I don't think I would ever need a lockout since it takes a lot of effort to get it all the way right, and forward. Mine always fall right into 5th, and I wouldn't even know it was locked out. I also have always used a Husrt T-handle shift knob in countless cars since I was 16. Even have one in my C5. Once you learn the 3 pressure points on the handle it glides into the right gear every time. I sure love the good old Muncie 4 speed with reverse left, and forward. You could shift those things without lifting off the throttle. My Camaro with that setup just has the right feel.

chevynut

05-29-2019, 04:08 PM

How do they control the lockout in the C5 Corvette? On my C5 I don't think I would ever need a lockout since it takes a lot of effort to get it all the way right, and forward.

If that's the case the lockout is always working, IE the solenoid isn't getting power. They do it with the VSS and I believe the clutch switch on the C5. The lockout solenoid has to be POWERED to allow easy shifting into Reverse. If it's not powered, it's always hard to shift it into Reverse.The solenoid is supposed to power up when the ignition is on and the car isn't moving. Once it hits 3 MPH the ECM disables the solenoid, causing the reverse gate to be locked out. You can still shift into reverse, but it should be hard to do.

Mine always fall right into 5th, and I wouldn't even know it was locked out.

The lockout keeps you from shifting into Reverse, not 5th. If you can't shift into reverse easily, the lockout is working.

I also have always used a Husrt T-handle shift knob in countless cars since I was 16. Even have one in my C5. I sure love the good old Muncie 4 speed with reverse left, and forward. You could shift those things without lifting off the throttle. My Camaro with that setup just has the right feel.

My 6-speed in my Porsche has reverse left and forward, and I don't know why the Tremecs don't. Muncies are junk by today's standards, but so are T3 lights and other 50-60 year old crap.

55 Rescue Dog

05-29-2019, 04:25 PM

Other than not having overdrive, why are the Muncie's junk? Have you ever driven a good one to the limit with a good Hurst shifter?

Rick_L

05-29-2019, 06:02 PM

Oh jeez, you guys live to stomp on each other don't you?

Cnut FWIW there is a commercial solution for swaps on the reverse lockout. Roger1 at the other site has one. It's more than I'd want to spend, but you may want to search for it and see if it's for you.

BamaNomad

05-29-2019, 06:59 PM

chevynut

05-29-2019, 08:29 PM

Cnut FWIW there is a commercial solution for swaps on the reverse lockout. Roger1 at the other site has one. It's more than I'd want to spend, but you may want to search for it and see if it's for you.

I've searched some and saw a little box for $100 but that seems ridiculous for a few simple little parts. I can buy an LM555 timer kit for $8. The VHX computer uses the VSS input for the speedo and outputs a VSS signal that can be used for other devices, and I think the PPM is programmable. The PAC-3500 door lock controller uses that VSS input to lock the doors, and the "WARN" output that I described looks like it can be used without adding another box, so that's my primary plan. If it doesn't work I'll use the VHX VSS output and a simple circuit to give me what I need to control the circuit.

Right now my plan is to use "WARN" to disable power to BOTH the hood release and RLO when the doors lock via a relay with NC contacts. I'll have to modify the DD PAC-3500 to eliminate the audible warning tone, but that looks easy to do. I'd like to disable power at a lower speed like the 3 MPH that's used in late GM cars, but I don't think I'm too concerned if the hood came unlatched at 10-15 MPH. I also have a hood safety switch that turns on the "check engine" light on the VHX cluster so I'll know when it's unlatched.

chevynut

05-29-2019, 08:39 PM

RD: CN just has no appreciation for older cars/technology. SOme of us do (you and I for sure); I have 2 cars with Muncie 4-speeds (M20 in both); a '69 Z28/RS and '69 350/350 Corvette convertible. Both are all original and I like driving them, but driving them or any other manual shift car would get OLD (as me) if I had to drive one every day, especially in work traiffic (but I'm retired now, and I can what/when/where/how I want to!).. You aren't going to convince CN of anything, so you should quit trying.. :)

I have two 1990 ZR1 corvettes with LT5/ZF 6-speeds and they too would get old in traffic every day, and CN probably doesn't appreciate them either... :)

I've had Muncies in the past (my '55 Chevy, and '69 Z/28) and they're rather poor shifting imo (compared to a Tremec) and without OD they get old on the highway. Yes I like new technology since it's better, quieter, more efficient, better performing, etc. The old stuff is just for nostalgia and I don't get that nostalgic.

If I had a restored original muscle car, I would drive it with that old stuff. I actually was planning to use a ZF6 in my Nomad, since I had one with the clutch and everything else that I bought with one of my first C4 suspensions, but I sold it and bought my T56 new after reading about all the issues with them, the cost of parts, and the difficulty of putting one behind a BBC. The T56 was a simpler solution and more mainstream.

This thread is about my Nomad final assembly and the things I'm doing to it. It has nothing to do with the BS RD keeps wanting to interject into the thread like T3 lights and Muncie transmissions and God knows what else every time he posts something here. My Nomad will never have a Muncie, stock lighting, a stock suspension, or stock anything else except stock sheetmetal and stainless/emblems. It's a resto-mod. If RD wants a Muncie he should use one and talk about it in another thread about HIS car.

Gmvette

05-30-2019, 06:10 AM

Yes the smoother shifting and OD are worth the Tremec change over from a Muncie. The retro thing is for pure nostalgic muscle cars. But they typically don’t get driven on a regular basis.

I truly like the Tremec with the forward shifter position in my 57 Nomad. So smooth, clean fit and the bench seat is usable all the way forward.

chevynut

05-30-2019, 10:01 AM

Rick_L

05-30-2019, 10:05 AM

Gmvette

05-30-2019, 10:39 AM

GMvette, that must be a TKO 5-speed. A T56 has the backup light switch on the passenger side. Doesn't the TKO have a RLO? I thought all newer transmissions had them. If it has one that I can't see, how did you wire it up?

First photo shows reverse switch with my old connector NOT plugged in beause of different receptacle. I think the tranny suppliers now offer a pig tail to splice in. I’m not a fan of splice in. Finding a plug to fit was difficult. Ended up modify the closest I could find to fit over the pins size.

Yes this is a TKO 600 5 speed with a 0.64 OD.
Back up light switch is on left side,

Gmvette

05-30-2019, 10:51 AM

I don't get these comments about "good shifting with a Tremec" and "bad shifting with a Muncie".

The Tremec 5 speeds are notorious for a bad 2-3 shift. I understand Craig Liberty has a fix for that but it's hundreds more on top of a fairly expensive transmission to start with.

The Tremec 6 speeds (designed by Borg Warner originally) have a synchronizer very similar to a Muncie. Two differences, the synchro has a paper lining like an auto trans clutch disc, and they have a plastic "pad" on the shift fork. The "pad" needs to upgraded to a metal one for HD use. I think a T56 feels a lot like a Muncie.

So what is your perception of how a Muncie is inferior?

I didn’t have shifting problems with the Hurst/Muncie M20. But I can say the Tremec is smoother. I haven’t noticed any issues with the 2-3 shift. I have the same tremec 600 TKO in my 65 Corvette And my 57 Nomad. The only difference is the way the shifters are set up. The vette has a whole different position and style. The Nomad has the forward position shifter. In all honesty one is as smooth as the other. Realize the vette has 1/3 the throw on the Nomad due to shifter length. Also understand both have custom made solid 316 stainless shifter levers.
The vette is round to look as the original 3 speed and is not the two bolt hook up. And the Nomad is 3/8” wide rectangle bar stock w/2 bolt mount to pivot.

Rick_L

05-30-2019, 12:56 PM

Gmvette

05-30-2019, 03:02 PM

All your comments are about shifters except to say that you don't have a 2-3 shift problem with your 5 speed. Do you ever drive it hard?

You can do a lot with shifters with any transmission. That doesn't count. Just like you can paint a car any color.

By 2-3 shift problem I think you referring to while winding it out does it “hang up”. I take the cars to about 5500 to 5800 as after that they are out of the torque curve. But if you are implying drag racing it at the track then no. Sure some street racing but not like drags at the track.

You gotta understand neither of my cars will stand up to a C7 vette, it would be stupid to try. I enjoy my cars but I don’t beat the shit out of them or destroy my tires doing burn outs. So what is “Drive it hard”?

I beg to differ a one piece shift is stiffer than a two piece bolt together plus has the security of never getting loose. A two piece bolted and welded is just as good. So to me that does matter.

Rick_L

05-30-2019, 05:01 PM

I beg to differ a one piece shift is stiffer than a two piece bolt together plus has the security of never getting loose. A two piece bolted and welded is just as good. So to me that does matter.

What are these "pieces" you speak of? Is this some part of the shifter? Are you talking about a bolt on stick? Are you aware that the 55-57 specific Hurst shifter stick for a Muncie is not a bolt on? Not that it matters, all other Hurst shifters for a Muncie do have a bolt on stick.

I also take it from your answer that you must granny shift when revving to 5500-5800 rpm before shifting.

scorpion1110

05-30-2019, 05:19 PM

If that's the case the lockout is always working, IE the solenoid isn't getting power. They do it with the VSS and I believe the clutch switch on the C5. The lockout solenoid has to be POWERED to allow easy shifting into Reverse. If it's not powered, it's always hard to shift it into Reverse.The solenoid is supposed to power up when the ignition is on and the car isn't moving. Once it hits 3 MPH the ECM disables the solenoid, causing the reverse gate to be locked out. You can still shift into reverse, but it should be hard to do.

The lockout keeps you from shifting into Reverse, not 5th. If you can't shift into reverse easily, the lockout is working.

My 6-speed in my Porsche has reverse left and forward, and I don't know why the Tremecs don't. Muncies are junk by today's standards, but so are T3 lights and other 50-60 year old crap.

When I read this I had to laugh. I just bought that little MGBGT and couldnt get it into reverse. British car friend came over and literally slammed it into reverse, hard to the left and down. The lockout springs on that transmission are super stiff.

At least that works.