EFI dilemma

[chevynut]

I just found out I have an issue that I'm not sure how to address. I've been building my car for WAAAAY too long. Several years ago....more than a decade ago....I bought a "tate of the art" Holley Commander 950 setup to run my Ramjet 502 instead of the stock crate marine ECU. I thought this was a big upgrade at the time. Later, I bought a Holley WB O2 kit that qualified me to get the ECU upgraded to C950 Pro which was even better. I thought I was all set.

The past couple of days I've been working on verifying the wiring for the engine harness to try to get ready to fire up the engine. I was looking at the manual, and looked for my software. I did a search on the internet and found the C950 software available on the Holley website. However, I found that it's not compatible with Windows 7 or any 64 bit OS. It's only compatible with Windows 98 to Windows XP OS. I've tried to download and run it and I get errors. Supposedly you're supposed to be able to run in "compatibility mode" using Windows 7 Professional, which is what I have. But I can't get anything to work.

I have a couple of old laptops but I have no idea if they run or not. One is missing the battery.

So I've been looking at upgrades to the C950 and found that Holley's current product is the HP EFI. The problem is the ECU, harness, sensors, and O2 sensor are $1700!

Sure the new software is probably a lot more flexible and programmable, but is it worth that much money to upgrade? I already have the WB O2, and all the sensors I need. I'd have to re-do my entire engine harness and maybe some of my console. I don't want to go to crank trigger ignition and I don't need all the bells and whistles that come with the HP EFI. I don't think I gain any performance at all.

It's too bad Holley won't upgrade their software to make the C950 compatible with Windows 7, 8, and 10. Seems like SOMEONE could do this fairly easily and make a few bucks on it. I'd pay $100 for compatible software in a heartbeat, rather than futz with an old computer or pay $1700 for a whole new system.

Anyone know any way around this? Any suggestions? This is really getting frustrating....:(

[BamaNomad]

you owe at least *part* of that THANKS(?) to Microsoft, as it's embedded into their dna to build in *incompatibility* into each new version of their op system, while of course providing 'lip service' and all that. I can just about guarantee that Microsoft spends MORE programmer effort (and of course $$) trying to ensure they KEEP their customer base (and cause them to buy new OS/computers) as well as keeping all their competitors out ... :(

Most people think Microsoft 'invented' computers..etc.. while in actuality, Microsoft thru their antics has held back computer technology and advancements (by themselves as well as other computer companies) for the last 36 yrs thru their protectionist approaches... I HATE THEM!

[567chevys]

Not knocking no one but that's why I like Carbs :)

[chevynut]

No thanks Sid, not going backwards 30 years. :)

[chevynut]

I went over to CT to look at some discussions over there and there's a lot of C950 talk even 2 years ago. I'm sure the HP EFI system is "better" than the C950 but I'm sure the C950 is "better" than the MEFI that came on the Ramjet 350 and 502. Lots of engines have been running the C950 for many years. There are even guys still looking for them for a "cheap" EFI controller.

I'm just having a hard time justifying going to the newer system because I don't see what it gains me. It' has all sorts of NOS and boost programability, lots of inputs and outputs, but I don't need any of that. I just hate the though of having to upgrade later, if something happens.

I found out that MSFT has a "Windows XP Mode" download that works with Windows 7 Professional. Problem is it takes 17GB of hard drive space and my laptop only has 14GB left. It's only a 75GB drive. :mad:

[chevynut]

Found this thread which has some fairly new posts....

https://forums.holley.com/showthread.php?6184-Commander-950-software-and-Windows-7-64-bit

Looks like my best bet is to try to find an older laptop that actually works.

[Rick_L]

My suggestion if you want to minimize expenses would be to talk to some computer places locally and see if you can get one of those old laptops converted to XP. XP was the most stable platform MS has done, and many corporate IT departments stuck with it as long as they could. You don't need the computer to be able to get on the internet once you get everything running, maybe never.

A call to Holley tech may or may not be beneficial also. You'll have to put your filter hat on.

Thing is, just like those MS operating systems have their stability and other issues/advantages, so will using the updated EFI computer. And it's not just the interface and programming features, there will be advantages to the later firmware/software. An example, someone with a Holley HP told me has was having a problem with a hesitation off idle. He did a lot of acceleration enrichment, etc. tuning - never got much of anywhere. Then upgraded to the latest s/w update and bam it was fixed (after putting all the unsuccessful tuning back where it started). I later heard they changed the algorithm used for AE.

[chevynut]

Well the good news is I went down into my basement and found two old laptops that I had from work. One is a Compaq EVO N610C but it has no battery in it and the other is an even older HP Omnibook. I plugged the Omnibook in and it won't even turn on. I plugged the Evo in and it came to life and booted.....XP Professional. :)

I can't connect to the internet via my router for some reason but I'm not sure I care. I downloaded the latest C950 Software and 502 base maps on my main home computer and put then on a flash drive, then loaded them onto the Evo. I am now able to run the C950 software and the base maps loaded too. The Evo even has a serial port for the interface cable. :geek:

The only thing I need to do is buy a new battery....found them on eBay for $18.89 plus $5.50 shipping so I have one on order. Not sure what happened to the old one but it must have gone dead and I disposed of it or something. Looks like the last time I used this computer was 2007 based on the documents list.

Whew! What a relief. If I was looking for a new EFI ECU I would probably get the HP EFI or some other compatible unit, but I really think the C950 will do everything I need even though it's "obsolete". I'd better get this car done before internal combustion engines are obsolete. :D

I don't know what version of firmware I have but Doug Fant was the guy who upgaded it for me a few years ago. Hope it's the latest.

[WagonCrazy]

I think you found the cheapest way out of your dilema (ie. finding an old laptop running XP). But your whole ECM system is still obsolete by today's standards.
And that's not a knock to you or your decision Laszlo...it's a reality that ALL of us are facing with our decisions on upgrading these old cars as time marches forward.
My Nomad-LS1 with reflashed PCM is technically obsolete by now too...2002 model year. Thats FIFTEEN YEARS OLD already! :cry: Been working on mine since I bought it in 2007. Sheesh...

So I guess my point is that we should all get these cars running and roadworthy soon (singing to the choir here). Of all the very cool things you're doing to your Nomad, the engine package is not what guys have been installing in many hot rods as of late. Again, that's not a put down in any way. It is YOUR decision what you build and we all respect that. But a 20 year old engine/ecm solution has its downfalls, so you've found that.

Find a working, XP based laptop, and hang onto it for future tuning. Problem solved.

[chevynut]

But your whole ECM system is still obsolete by today's standards.

But that's my dilemma, Paul. What is "obsolete" when it comes to EFI? The C950 doesn't have all the custom HP EFI's inputs and outputs, but it has a couple of customizable inputs and outputs instead of four of each. It can't drive up to 16 cylinders with "multiple strategies" and I don't need to. It doesn't have multi-stage NOS or methanol injection control which is worthless to me. It doesn't have turbocharger control or traction control. It doesn't have two knock sensor channels or capapable of running on two O2 sensors but I have one of each. The C950 doesn't have fuel and oil pressure inputs, but how does that help? My engine doesn't have a MAF sensor, so it runs only in speed density mode and all those extra programming functions are worthless to me.

The point is, the HP EFI doesn't have anything that I'd really need or even use that the C950 doesn't have. The C950 has some features I didn't even know it had, and some that I'm not planning to use. Sure the HP EFI has a lot more features and flexibility, but that also makes it more complicated. The HP EFI's self-learning is something that might be valuable. The C950 isn't state of the art, nor does it need to be for my purposes. But it's a helluva lot better than a carburetor, imo. ;)

[55 Rescue Dog]

Does that FI system adjust for altitude changes with a barometric sensor, or something? I would think that would be a must have living in the mountains.

[BamaNomad]

I think you found the cheapest way out of your dilema (ie. finding an old laptop running XP).
.... portions deleted....
Find a working, XP based laptop, and hang onto it for future tuning. Problem solved.

and.. IMO.. you don't want to connect that computer to the internet, becasue if you do, it would not be the first time that MS did an 'automatic update' to your obsolete, but functioning, computer and made it never work again! (They did that to an NT pro system I'd been using for years... saying it was the last time they would 'provide a fixes' update; I bought their BS and let it happen.. that computer never booted up again after that 'upgrade'... :( It seems obvious to me that's another part of MS's approach, forcing us to buy NEW computers and with it of course, NEW OS...

[NickP]

Well the good news is I went down into my basement and found two old laptops that I had from work. One is a Compaq EVO N610C but it has no battery in it and the other is an even older HP Omnibook. I plugged the Omnibook in and it won't even turn on. I plugged the Evo in and it came to life and booted.....XP Professional. :)

I can't connect to the internet via my router for some reason but I'm not sure I care. I downloaded the latest C950 Software and 502 base maps on my main home computer and put then on a flash drive, then loaded them onto the Evo. I am now able to run the C950 software and the base maps loaded too. The Evo even has a serial port for the interface cable. :geek:

The only thing I need to do is buy a new battery....found them on eBay for $18.89 plus $5.50 shipping so I have one on order. Not sure what happened to the old one but it must have gone dead and I disposed of it or something. Looks like the last time I used this computer was 2007 based on the documents list.

Whew! What a relief. If I was looking for a new EFI ECU I would probably get the HP EFI or some other compatible unit, but I really think the C950 will do everything I need even though it's "obsolete". I'd better get this car done before internal combustion engines are obsolete. :D

I don't know what version of firmware I have but Doug Fant was the guy who upgaded it for me a few years ago. Hope it's the latest.

If your present LapTop is non functional, let me know and I'll send you my old Dell. I just replaced the battery too. It's an XP Pro machine.

[chevynut]

Does that FI system adjust for altitude changes with a barometric sensor, or something? I would think that would be a must have living in the mountains.

It uses a MAP sensor.

[chevynut]

and.. IMO.. you don't want to connect that computer to the internet, becasue if you do, it would not be the first time that MS did an 'automatic update' to your obsolete, but functioning, computer and made it never work again! (They did that to an NT pro system I'd been using for years... saying it was the last time they would 'provide a fixes' update; I bought their BS and let it happen.. that computer never booted up again after that 'upgrade'... :( It seems obvious to me that's another part of MS's approach, forcing us to buy NEW computers and with it of course, NEW OS...

Really good point, Bn! I think I'll actually disable upgrades and network connections.

[chevynut]

If your present LapTop is non functional, let me know and I'll send you my old Dell. I just replaced the battery too. It's an XP Pro machine.

Thanks Nick. Right now I think I'm set, but if I can't get it to work in the future I'll let you know. Don't throw it away! :) :)

To think that the C950 was brand new when I started working on this car. :(:cry:

[Rick_L]

Again, I'll cite the acceleration enrichment improvement of the HP EFI with updated s/w. There are probably more things like that. And that's an update for HP - no telling what was improved from original HP over the 950, but you can bet that there were several things.

Is the number of fuel and spark table cells the same between 950 and HP? Stock systems have more than even the HP.

And, like the old MS stuff, the 950 isn't supported with software updates any more. You may be OK - but you won't know what you're missing either.

[chevynut]

To be honest, I've never programmed any EFI system so far but I did stay ay a Holiday Inn. :) I have read a little about it and I understand the concepts, just not the details.

The fuel map is looks like it's 16x16 to me.

Here's what they say about the HP EFI:

"Can be set to 31x31 or 16x16 with user adjustable axes. 8x8 Target Air/Fuel Ratio table"

There's an acceleration enrichment table, another one showing O2 sensor data, a table for temperature compensation and it features an internal datalogger that can be turned on with a switch.

Here's the entire C950 user manual. It seems to have quite an impressive capability to me. I'm sure the HP EFI is much better as far as better map resolution, and for used in boosted applications or NOS. The learning function probably makes tuning a lot simpler too.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjb_MLLka_VAhUH8YMKHTVlAOAQFggrMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fdocuments.holley.com%2Ftechlibrar y_r10149-7.pdf&usg=AFQjCNF81ljX-Ee9xmBf-JbH1cW_YVcbDg

[chevynut]

Here's an example of the C950 engine parameters screen:

http://www.edjeanfiles.com/edgesz28/edgesz28/C950/engine-parameters.gif

And a fuel map:

http://i.imgur.com/CccNQX1.jpg


Here's the fuel in 3D

http://i.imgur.com/b4iVMpD.jpg

The spark map is similar:

http://i.imgur.com/C1eqlcV.jpg

And here's the acceleration enrichment table:

http://www.edjeanfiles.com/edgesz28/edgesz28/C950/accel-enrich.gif

This is an example of what you get from the datalogger:

http://www.edjeanfiles.com/edgesz28/edgesz28/C950/datalogger.gif

And here's some O2 sensor inputs...

http://i.imgur.com/cl7MZhv.jpg

[chevynut]

And I just found this....appears to be some good info!

http://www.binderplanet.com/forums/index.php?threads/commander-950-resource-thread.125589/

[races14]

I thought I might as well throw in my useless knowledge. I am running the HP EFI and found it to be extremely easy to tune. I was able to download
the V4 version and study it and just get used to where things were. You could do this and maybe see where the difference are between the 950 and the HP EFI. If you haven't been to the resources site on Holley https://www.holley.com/support/resources/, this is where I found a lot of useful information.

7613

[chevynut]

Thanks Allen, I already read a lot of stuff on that Holley link. I know the HP EFI is a lot better than the C950 but the C950 has been used by thousands, if not tens of thousands of guys. Sure, I read that the C950 can be a PITA to tune, but I'm sure those same guys would bitch about any EFI system that doesn't learn by itself. And like I said, the HP EFI has a lot of features that are useless to me. I found out that it DOES have a fan controller in it that would eliminate my need to buy a DD PAC-2750 but that's not enough incentive.

The real question is GIVEN THAT I ALREADY HAVE A C950, is it worth $1700 to upgrade? I have a hard time believing it is. And it will again delay a project I've been working on WAY too long already. ;)

Thanks for all the input guys. I bought the Holley WBO2 setup because I was told it would make tuning a lot easier, and it cost a few hundred bucks for that upgrade. I guess I'm sticking with the C950 unless I just can't get the engine to run the way I want down the line. If it comes to that, I'll yank it out and upgrade someday.

[OLKY55]

I have 2 cars with the Holley HP system. It was pretty easy to install and learn. There are several forums that are pretty helpful, if you have questions.

My 57 will have the Dominator system, as it has DBW and an integral trans controller for my 4L80.