Firing up the Ramjet 502!

[chevynut]

Now that the stainless radiator hoses are installed I filled the radiator with coolant (water for now), filled the engine with oil (Mobil 1 5W30) and filled the T56 with ATF (Valvoline Dextron III). I also have almost completed the temporary wiring to get ready to fire the engine for the first time since I re-assembled it last fall.

I filled the fuel tank with about 3 gallons of 91 octane and ran the fuel pump to pressurize the fuel system and check for leaks. Everything is okay ;). The starter cables are attached to the Optima Yellow Top battery and the Holley C950 is wired. I've done the minimal temporary wiring to crank and fire the engine as far as I can tell, using the stock ignition switch. I have a WBO2 and although I don't intend to do a lot of tuning right now, I still want to wire it up to see where I'm at as far as A-F ratio once the engine starts, so I still have to wire up the Holley WBO2 controller. Probably won't try to run it closed-loop for a while.

Just before I try to fire it up I need to pull the distributor and prime the engine oil system. Then I need to install the distributor and set the base timing at 10 degrees advanced. My son is bringing me a laptop to load the EFI maps I got from Holley for the 502 since the software won't run on anything past Windows XP.. After buying a new battery and charger for my XP laptop the disc crashed!

So hopefully before next weekend I should be able to fire the beast! I'll be videoing the startup! :)

[Bluegrass Trifive]

I finally got to hear mine run a few months back. I've got to do additional tuning on down the road but everything was ok. It's a major milestone, congratulations!

[Bitchin'57]

That will be one hell of an exhilarating day, for sure! I hope all goes well for ya! Looking forward to the video!

[BamaNomad]

We're all looking forward to hearing your engine start up and run in that beautiful chassis, CN! :)

[chevynut]

Thanks guys, I'm not quite there yet but close. I just woke up this morning and realized I needed to deal with the power steering pump since I don't have a reservoir yet. It's about the only thing I didn't build for the car and I may just buy one already made. It should be pretty easy to deal with temporarily by making a loop. Can't wait to hear it fire. My wife says I should have a party with a bunch of people over, and I said.....what if it doesn't run? :cry: That would be a little embarrassing. :eek:

[WagonCrazy]

Yeah...hold off on that party until you know it runs. Will keep the drama in your life minimized.
Congrats on being close.
Been a long time coming.
I'm right behind you by about a few months on firing mine up too.

[567chevys]

Cant Wait to see it run and hear it !

Good Luck , Looks Killer

Sid

[JT56]

Awesome Man!

[chevynut]

I ran into a little problem today that I didn't notice in all these years. My PS pump is a "type 2" GM pump that I got from Street and Performance. I had to send one back because it had an integral reservoir, which I liked, but it wouldn't work with my brackets. I asked them to send me a pump with AN fittings on it.

The pump I have has a hole in the top that is for an o-ring fitting adapter to AN6, which I think they sent me with the pump. The fitting coming out of the side of the pump is an AN10 adapter fitting! The fitting has always had a cover on it until now, so I didn't notice it was so big. I looked at some reservoirs and some have a -8 outlet and some have -10. It looks like this without the AN6 fitting....

https://static.summitracing.com/global/images/prod/mediumlarge/SUM-340106_ml.jpg
So now the question is how do I make a line from inlet to outlet, or address this in some other way? I have a serpentine system so I can't take the belt off of the pump. And I don't have any AN10 hose. Any ideas?

The good news is that I checked my wiring by connecting the battery. When I turn the key on, the fuel pump runs under ECU control. The weird thing is it keeps running for a few seconds after I turn the key off....maybe that's programmable or something. It also means the injectors are still getting power after the key is off too, since the same relay controls power to them. Also, the starter solenoid engages in the "start" position. So everything seems to be wired right so far. :)

[55 Rescue Dog]

I ran into a little problem today that I didn't notice in all these years. My PS pump is a "type 2" GM pump that I got from Street and Performance. I had to send one back because it had an integral reservoir, which I liked, but it wouldn't work with my brackets. I asked them to send me a pump with AN fittings on it.

The pump I have has a hole in the top that is for an o-ring fitting adapter to AN6, which I think they sent me with the pump. The fitting coming out of the side of the pump is an AN10 adapter fitting! The fitting has always had a cover on it until now, so I didn't notice it was so big. I looked at some reservoirs and some have a -8 outlet and some have -10. It looks like this without the AN6 fitting....

https://static.summitracing.com/global/images/prod/mediumlarge/SUM-340106_ml.jpg
So now the question is how do I make a line from inlet to outlet, or address this in some other way? I have a serpentine system so I can't take the belt off of the pump. And I don't have any AN10 hose. Any ideas?

The good news is that I checked my wiring by connecting the battery. When I turn the key on, the fuel pump runs under ECU control. The weird thing is it keeps running for a few seconds after I turn the key off....maybe that's programmable or something. It also means the injectors are still getting power after the key is off too, since the same relay controls power to them. Also, the starter solenoid engages in the "start" position. So everything seems to be wired right so far. :)
I don't know how you are going to run oil through the pump with a loop and no reservoir. That would be a party stopper. Why not get one, and hook up the rack too?

[55 Rescue Dog]

When I had my engine starting party with a new 350 LT-1 that had sat for over 35 years, it started within 30 seconds. Small fuel leak was the only issue, and the smoke is from the header paint baking on.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_eKVNo_X5Q&feature=youtu.be

[chevynut]

There's nothing wrong with running a hose from inlet to outlet and filling the pump with fluid. I don't see that as any different than putting a reservoir in the loop. I'm afraid of burning up the pump if I run it dry, and I don't have any AN10 hose except braided A/C hose, and I have no AN10 hose ends except o-ring A/C hose ends. I have a bunch of AN6 hose and hose ends.

I've been trying to avoid dealing with the PS reservoir and wanted to do that during final assembly of the car. But I see no easy, quick solution to the problem right now. So I'm going to try to find a solution that works and go ahead and plumb everything including the rack. It will also let me check the rebuilt rack for leaks which is a good thing to do. That will probably delay my starting of the engine several days until I figure out which parts I need, get them ordered, and install them.

[MadMooks]

I remember starting my ramjet 502 , pretty exciting moment . Can't believe that was 12-13 years ago. Good luck !

[55 Rescue Dog]

I found a easy way to bleed the power steering system without the engine running. I just hooked up my 1/2 inch Milwaukee electric drill to the pump, and got the system bled, leaving one less thing to worry about while firing the engine.

[chevynut]

This engine is not a formerly running engine that has been sitting after just being shut down ;). It's a brand new GMPP crate 502 longblock that I upgraded into a Ramjet EFI engine using GM parts and a few upgrades like the Holley TB and bigger injectors. It had never been run since it was assembled by GM. Last year I disassembled it to a bare block and re-assembled it with new rings, a custom cam, roller rockers, new timing set, etc. I've also re-wired some of the ECU harness. So a lot has been changed and it still has never run. Hopefully soon. :)

I really painted myself into a corner on the PS reservoir. The whole time I was building the car the PS reservoir was in the back of my mind and I figured it would be easy to add later but never thought too seriously about it. I spent all day yesterday trying to find one that would fit, and figure out where to put it. It has to be above the pump inlet which complicates things a lot. The inner fenders are angled, and pretty tight to the frame so they're not a good location for mounting it. I looked at putting it on the firewall but routing lines from there would be fairly difficult, and I made the firewall uncluttered on purpose :). Plus the steering column is in the way unless I put it above it, which I think would look bad.


7803

I looked at putting it next to the radiator in front of the radiator support, but there's not enough vertical space there and the lines would have to penetrate sheetmetal twice to get into the engine compartment. Plus that's where my horns go. :eek: I even looked at putting it on the passenger side but there's no space there either, except on the firewall and routing lines from there would be "fun".

So the only place I could find that made sense is below the alternator, just behind the radiator support. However, there's not much room there and these reservoirs are pretty big. Most of them are made to hold nearly a quart of fluid (the PSC one is 3.5" diameter and 8.25" tall) and the outlet is on the very bottom on most of them. The ones from Billet Specialties are almost 10" long and they won't fit in that space.

I made a mockup of this one from Concept One and I think it's going to fit, but it'll be tight. It's 3" in diameter and a little over 7" long.

http://www.c1pulleys.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/s/t/standard-reservoir-ba_3.jpg

I ordered it last night (not anodized) along with the AN10 hose and fittings. It's going to be tough getting the AN10 hose to fit because it's so close to the pump, and I need some length to allow for engine movement. So instead of Teflon hose, I went with braided stainless rubber hose figuring it's going to be easier to bend.

This shows the space I have to work with...

7801

7802

If it doesn't fit there, it's going under the fenderwell behind the radiator support....I think. :eek:

[55 Rescue Dog]

I read that just the fluid level in the reservoir needs to be 2 inches higher than the pump. Next to the upper radiator hose looks like a spot, and what about hydro-boost lines?

[chevynut]

No Hydroboost.

7804

7805

[JT56]

This is what I used in mine. I needed two -6 and one -10. Smileys $119. It was baffled too

http://dy5vgx5yyjho5.cloudfront.net/dimg/v1/150x140-cH7M2z4wWrx17039.jpg

[chevynut]

JT, I looked all over the internet for something like that reservoir, even used Google images and only found the Canton Racing ones that are application specific. It doesn't look like Smiley's offers that one anymore. Not sure if it would have worked either, given my space constraints.

http://www.smileysracing.com/shopping/productDetails.aspx?i=47544&c=1532

[55 Rescue Dog]

No Hydroboost.

7804

7805
Pretty cool brake set up for sure, but speaking of painting yourself into corners, like I've done many times. What access do you have to service the hidden brake system? Looks like it might be a major undertaking if you had to replace the master cylinder, or anything else.

[chevynut]

What access do you have to service the hidden brake system? Looks like it might be a major undertaking if you had to replace the master cylinder, or anything else.

The reservoir has a sight glass for filling it, and a level sensor for monitoring the level. I plan to put a warning light somewhere in the car. If I need to service it, I remove the front tire, and the lower flap on the inner wheelwell. Access should take a few minutes and once the flap is off it's easy to get to.


7806

I've owned my truck for 12 years and 190,000 miles an have never touched the brake system. Same with my Porsche (15 years, 35K miles) and they all work just fine.

The radiator overflow tank is similar and in about the same location on the passenger side of the car. It also has a sight glass for filling, and a level sensor. I just didn't want to clutter up the firewall with tanks or anything else.

7807

[markm]

Really you don't believe in changing brake fluid, that's not how I do things.

[NickP]

Really you don't believe in changing brake fluid, that's not how I do things.

Fishing again there Mark?

[JT56]

JT, I looked all over the internet for something like that reservoir, even used Google images and only found the Canton Racing ones that are application specific. It doesn't look like Smiley's offers that one anymore. Not sure if it would have worked either, given my space constraints.

http://www.smileysracing.com/shopping/productDetails.aspx?i=47544&c=1532

Sorry should have posted this address. Sounds like you got it covered. Looking good man!

http://www.saldanaracingproducts.com/

[WagonCrazy]

I used this Moroso one for mine. I cut the tabs off and repositioned them for my mounting needs, and had a return line bung welded in on the lower/side of it (for the line coming back from the hydroboost).

7808

The only logical place I can see looking at your pics is against the back of the core support, just below the upper radiator hose. Or (like you mentioned) on the tire side of the inner driver fender with the line coming thru a grommeted hole to the pump. That makes accessing and visually checking fluid all that much more difficult.

[chevynut]

Fishing again there Mark?

Of course he is....that's how every one of these things starts. He makes some comment, starts asking irrelevant questions, then goes on the attack because he thinks his way is the only right way.

I have never changed brake fluid in any of my vehicles unless I was doing a brake job and/or changing calipers or master cylinders. I keep my vehicles a long time, usually close to 200K miles and have never had an issue with brake fluid in almost 50 years of driving. I check levels, and that's about it. I can't even remember when I've ever had to mess much with brake fluid levels in any vehicle I've owned. Same with engine coolant. As long as the coolant looks clean and the engine isn't overheating and it's protected from freezing, I don't mess with it. And I've never had any problems. IMO flushing and re-filling these things "just because" is a waste of time, money and resources. It works for me.

[chevynut]

I used this Moroso one for mine. I cut the tabs off and repositioned them for my mounting needs, and had a return line bung welded in on the lower/side of it (for the line coming back from the hydroboost).

I looked at that one and I think it's Ford specific (Mustang??). I figured I'd have to modify it to mount it, and I didn't like the push-on hose nipples. I would have had to weld on some AN fitting bungs to use hose ends. BTW, the one I got from Concept One is available with two AN6 fittings for Hydroboost applications.



The only logical place I can see looking at your pics is against the back of the core support, just below the upper radiator hose. Or (like you mentioned) on the tire side of the inner driver fender with the line coming thru a grommeted hole to the pump. That makes accessing and visually checking fluid all that much more difficult.

Those two places are the only ones I've found that might work too. My main concern at this point is being able to connect the AN10 hose to both the reservoir and pump. I plan to use two 90-degree hose ends and hopefully that works. Obviously I don't get too hung up on "accessing" things. I don't think I've ever had to check the level of the PS fluid in my truck or Porsche....or any other vehicle I've owned. I check it when the PS pump starts making noise indicating the fluid is low or when something else doesn't seem right. Unless there's a leak, why check it? That's my philosophy on it. :)

[markm]

Really , you honestly think that way, I have a number of vehicles that have owned and drove for 30 or 40 years and I can tell you from my honest experience brake fluid draws moisture and needs changed. Especially true on newer stuff with ABS. Now feel free to tell me how stupid I am.

[chevynut]

Really , you honestly think that way, I have a number of vehicles that have owned and drove for 30 or 40 years and I can tell you from my honest experience brake fluid draws moisture and needs changed. Especially true on newer stuff with ABS. Now feel free to tell me how stupid I am.

Brake fluid gets hot when you drive. What happens to that water in the system when it gets hot? I've not had any indication of water in my brake systems, nor does ethanol cause any problem in my gas. I guess I just live a blessed life, huh? :D

You do things the way you want to, and I'll do them the way I want to. This thread isn't about how often you should change your brake fluid or coolant.

[Rick_L]

Head buried in sand.

[chevynut]

Head buried in sand.

Better than head up your ass. :D

https://bottomlineinc.com/life/car-maintenance/car-maintenance-you-dont-need-including-most-every-kind-of-flush

"• Brake fluid flushes. Don’t trust a shop that recommends you flush your brake fluid regularly. Brake fluid can last as long as your vehicle. There are exceptions, however. Your brake fluid might legitimately need to be flushed if moisture gets into the system or the brake fluid has overheated."

You might have a little "moisture" in Houston or elsewhere, but we don't have much. So F* off Toxic Rickie. Nobody asked you about anything. I don't know why you two assholes have to turn every tread of mine into a pissing match with your stupid attacks.

BTW, how's that LS3 coffee table working out for ya? :D :D

[JT56]

https://memegenerator.net/img/instances/250x250/58757740/shots-fired.jpg

[JT56]

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/81/da/c6/81dac67046996909ad9b5522d6bc5187.jpg

[567chevys]

just depends where one looks or asks

https://www.cstatic-images.com/stock/1170x1170/52/1435258425-1429220604652.jpgReplace brake fluidknowlesgallery/iStock/Thinkstock

CARS.COM — The recommended intervals for changing brake fluid are all over the board depending on the manufacturer, from as often as every two years to never. Really.
For example, Chevrolet (http://www.chevrolet.com/) says to change the brake fluid on most models every 45,000 miles, but Honda (http://www.honda.com/) says to do it every three years regardless of the vehicle's mileage. Three years is also the recommended interval for most Volkswagens (http://www.vw.com/), but Mercedes-Benz (https://www.mbusa.com/mercedes/index) vehicles typically call for fresh fluid every two years or 20,000 miles.
In contrast, on the Ford Escape, Hyundai Elantra, Toyota Camry and other models from those manufacturers, there are no recommendations for replacing the brake fluid, only instructions to inspect it periodically.
This leaves it up to the owner to consult what the manufacturer says in their car's maintenance schedule and rely on the advice (https://www.cars.com/auto-repair/expert-tips/) of a trusted repair shop.
Brake fluid lives in a sealed system and can survive for years, but moisture from the surrounding air can work its way in through hoses and other parts of the brake system. Water in the brake lines lowers the boiling point of the fluid, so stopping ability can diminish in hard stops as heat in the system increases. In addition, over time the moisture can cause internal corrosion in the brake lines, calipers, the master cylinder and other components.
Flushing and replacing brake fluid might cost $100 or less on many vehicles, but replacing rusted brake lines and other parts can run several hundreds of dollars, so clearly there's value in keeping up with maintenance.
As a rule of thumb, it's wise to have the brake fluid inspected and perhaps tested for moisture content every few years and no more than every five if you live in a high-humidity area.
You might be able to tell it's time for a change by looking to see if the fluid is still fresh. Brake fluid is often light brown in color, but in some vehicles it's clear (at least when new) and will darken with age, becoming murky from water contamination. A better way is to have it tested by a professional for moisture and see what they recommend.
Brake fluid is as vital to stopping a vehicle as engine oil is to keeping it going, but it doesn't get as much attention as it deserves.

[55 Rescue Dog]

Brake fluid flushes are always neglected. I try, but never keep at it like I should, and if nothing else every couple years I'll at least vacuum the reservoir and refill. Every 2-3 years complete flush would be best, and don't forget the clutch. Brake fluid does pull in moisture which is bad for corrosion, and boiling point. Hey, it's something to talk about anyway, while we all wait for the 502 to run.

[markm]

I find it to be an issue on garage queens like my C3 Corvette, things that are not driven regularly don't generate any heat and draw moisture, The more sophisticated the system the more important preventative service is to do.

[BamaNomad]

Some of you guys should try be more like ducks.... they let water run off their backs, and you fellas need to learn to let other's suggestions/comments roll off yours... This site will be greatly improved and probably GROW when you learn to do that. Another possibility, if someone says somethign that you just HAVE to respond to.. then do it privately so all the rest of us don't have to read it... :(

[567chevys]

Some of you guys should try be more like ducks.... they let water run off their backs, and you fellas need to learn to let other's suggestions/comments roll off yours... This site will be greatly improved and probably GROW when you learn to do that. Another possibility, if someone says somethign that you just HAVE to respond to.. then do it privately so all the rest of us don't have to read it... :(

I 110% Agree with you !!!!!!

[NickP]

So, aside from the past banter regarding Brake Fluid and the Do's and Don'ts, is it running yet? We want live proof BTW..................................LOL Proof of Life!

[chevynut]

Got a little sidetracked from starting up the engine since I had to find and install the PS reservoir and lines, which required me to paint all of my radiator support panels so I didn't have to remove a bunch of stuff to install them later. I had to machine a custom fitting to adapt the PS pump input to an AN10 hose end and assembled the rest of the hoses. I also did a little re-wiring and wired up the passenger side horn since the wires are hidden and run inside the panels from the driver's side. Got all that done and bought some Redline Syntheric PS fluid and filled the reservoir.


7913


Today I finished up installing the lower radiator hose clamps and I decided NOT to use a Gates shrink clamp on the water pump end. You can hardly see it and it will be easier to remove the hose if ever needed by removing the Breeze clamp.

Then I pulled the distributor and installed the oil primer and quickly got 65 PSI with the 1/2" drill on it. So at least the pump works and there's no internal leaks. :) It took a total of 8 quarts to get the oil level right on the dipstick. :eek:

I have a few minor things left to do before actually firing the engine. I have the laptop powered up and still need to install the C950 program and the 502 maps, then load them into the ECU and verify. I have to figure out how to set the TPS since it's sitting there loose and I think I do that through the C950 software. Just before running it I want to prime the engine again and then I need to install the distributor, cap, and plug wires and set the base timing. Still trying to figure out how to do that :confused:. I plan to connect the starter cable to the battery to make sure it cranks okay without the fuel pump running or ignition powered up. Just want to make sure everything works the way it's supposed to before it runs.

I plan to video the first startup when I have everything checked out. Hopefully it all works and fires up with no issues. :)

[chevynut]

After wrangling with the computer for several hours I finally got the Holley Commander 950 PRO software to load and was able to look at the supplied maps. They have one for a 502 with 42 lb/hr injectors which is exactly what I have. :) I connected the computer to the ECU and couldn't get them to communicate no matter which comm port I used. Comm Port 3 was the only one that didn't immediately give me a port error so I used that one. Then when trying to load the maps I kept getting an error that said "ECU not connected or not powered up". I checked the continuity of the cable and made sure the ECU was getting power, even though it was running the fuel pump just fine. Everything seemed to be as it should.

After messing around with it some more I determined that it wasn't going to work with the parallel to serial adapter, so I got a USB to RS-232 serial cable from Best Buy. Got it plugged in and loaded a driver for it, but it still wouldn't connect. I got the same error saying the ECU wasn't connected or powered up.....then I tried Comm Port 4 and it connected. :)

So today I went through Holley's setup procedure and adjusted the TPS, set all the engine parameters, and finalized the start-up maps and info. I decided to go ahead and put coolant into the engine since I painted the panels and don't have to remove them again so I put 4 gallons of 50/50 anti-freeze and distilled water in it, and it's still not full. :eek: There's enough to run it though.

I also hooked up the O2 sensor outputs of the ECU to the WBO2 controller and I can read it on the computer along with all the other sensors. I primed the engine again and cranked it over a little, then primed it one last time. Then I re-installed the distributor and plug wires. After that I cranked it without the fuel pump plugged in and got 35 PSI of oil pressure while cranking. So that looks good. :)

The only thing I have to do is set the base timing and I think I'll do that while cranking with a timing light. I'll probably need another set of hands to help me with that. I'm not sure if I have to somehow disconnect the tan/black wire to the distributor to prevent the ECU from controlling timing or not. Seems like they should have put a feature in the ECU to disable the control to set base timing. They make an adapter for that but I don't have one, so I may end up putting a switch in the console wiring to disconnect it.

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31N1Lg1XW-L.jpg

So it's ready to fire up as soon as I can get someone here to witness it. Camera is even ready to go. :D

[chevynut]

I just looked at the "Engine Parameters" page in the C950 manual and it has a box that says "Timing advance while cranking". The description says:

"If HEI or TFI is used, the timing during cranking will be the same as
the base module timing below 400 rpm."

So it looks to me like I can set the base timing while cranking with the fuel pump disabled and not have to cut or disconnect the ignition bypass wire. I'll try that and see how it works out. ;)

[55 Rescue Dog]

Looks like progress, but it sure makes it look like a well tuned simple carburetor is not so bad. While cranking engine to set timing, and priming power steering, it really helps to have all the plugs out. Of course disable spark, and fuel.

[chevynut]

it sure makes it look like a well tuned simple carburetor is not so bad.

A carburetor is always a "compromise" at just about any RPM. You can't actually "tune" it for a desirable A/F ratio across the entire RPM range, you just adjust the idle mixture and change jets until it "works". It's an antiquated solution, and OEMs haven't used one for over 30 years since EFI took over. Same with a mechanical/vacuum advance distributor. EFI and computer-controlled ignition is far advanced from floats, jets, and springs.

Sure a carb is "simple", if you can call it that, but manual steering is simpler than power steering, manual brakes are simpler than power brakes, and crank windows are simpler than power windows. A hard top is "simpler" than a convertible top too. I know lots of guys still use carbs, and that's fine if that's what they want to use. Never again for me, unless I buy a restored muscle car.

The hardest part so far has been getting the PC to work and talk to the ECU. The rest of the setup has been kinda fun and I like a challenge. I think the final tuning is going to be interesting once I get to that point.

My wife helped me crank the engine while I checked the timing last night. I found out that it's really hard to see the timing tab on the timing chain cover since I painted the whole thing charcoal, and the damper is black.:p Never thought about that when I painted the timing marks and numbers on the damper white. Plus my PS pump is right in the way so it's hard to get an good angle on it. But as far as I could tell, it looks like I stabbed the distributor in right at 10 degrees advanced. :) It's close enough to start it up for sure. ;) I plan to paint a white edge on the timing tab so it's easier to see when I go to sync the timing with the ECU. I may have to get one of those remote cameras that interfaces with your phone :geek:.

My wife is making a bigger deal out of this than I am. She knows how long I've been working on this chassis and engine and she insists that we have a "startup party" of sorts so she invited a bunch of my friends and neighbors over today at 3PM for beer and food. Come on over if you want to! :D

[BamaNomad]

I'd suggest a 'pre-party' testing first... :) Just to avoid any potential for embarrassment.. :)

[chevynut]

I'd suggest a 'pre-party' testing first... :) Just to avoid any potential for embarrassment.. :)

Then it's not the "real thing". ;)

I have compression, I have fuel, I have spark and I have oil pressure. What else do I need? :D I made sure the engine was on #1 compression when I installed the distributor so it wouldn't be 180 out. I think it will start fine....how well it runs is at the mercy of the Holley program which Doug Flynn (Holley Engineer) assured me would work. ;)

One thing I'm unsure of is they say to "crack" the throttle plates to flow enough air for starting. I have the idle screw in as far as it goes and the plates are barely cracked. I know the IAC is supposed to control the airflow at idle so hopefully the way I have it set up is good.

Also I'm unable to measure the fuel pressure because the pressure test gauge I have won't screw onto the fuel rail. I may have to bend the tube from the fuel rail a little to get it on because it's too close to the upper manifold. But I know the pump is working and the fuel pressure regulator is fixed pressure so I'm assuming it's good. They used some EFI parts off the Vortec 454s on the Ramjet 502s.

[55 Rescue Dog]

A carburetor is always a "compromise" at just about any RPM. You can't actually "tune" it for a desirable A/F ratio across the entire RPM range, you just adjust the idle mixture and change jets until it "works". It's an antiquated solution, and OEMs haven't used one for over 30 years since EFI took over. Same with a mechanical/vacuum advance distributor. EFI and computer-controlled ignition is far advanced from floats, jets, and springs.

Sure a carb is "simple", if you can call it that, but manual steering is simpler than power steering, manual brakes are simpler than power brakes, and crank windows are simpler than power windows. A hard top is "simpler" than a convertible top too. I know lots of guys still use carbs, and that's fine if that's what they want to use. Never again for me, unless I buy a restored muscle car.

The hardest part so far has been getting the PC to work and talk to the ECU. The rest of the setup has been kinda fun and I like a challenge. I think the final tuning is going to be interesting once I get to that point.

My wife helped me crank the engine while I checked the timing last night. I found out that it's really hard to see the timing tab on the timing chain cover since I painted the whole thing charcoal, and the damper is black.:p Never thought about that when I painted the timing marks and numbers on the damper white. Plus my PS pump is right in the way so it's hard to get an good angle on it. But as far as I could tell, it looks like I stabbed the distributor in right at 10 degrees advanced. :) It's close enough to start it up for sure. ;) I plan to paint a white edge on the timing tab so it's easier to see when I go to sync the timing with the ECU. I may have to get one of those remote cameras that interfaces with your phone :geek:.

My wife is making a bigger deal out of this than I am. She knows how long I've been working on this chassis and engine and she insists that we have a "startup party" of sorts so she invited a bunch of my friends and neighbors over today at 3PM for beer and food. Come on over if you want to! :D
No question that a good working fuel injection is better than a old carb. I've had many perfect running engines over the years with a carb, and was never stranded by something a screwdriver, and wrench couldn't easily fix, or tune. Plus just one 12 volt wire pretty much runs the engine, and the carb and ignition self-adjust mechanically. There are lot's of different engines other than automobile that run on carbs great.

[BamaNomad]

I was only 'teasing' a little... and I agree... if you have compression, fuel delivery, spark timed properly... it will fire.. *(I always try to be confident when I do this).. and usually it fires immediately... :)

[chevynut]

Well the party was a big success, and so was the firing of the engine. :)

Everyone got here and we all went out to the shop. I wanted to fire it up through the mufflers with the cutouts closed, but I got out-voted so I opened them. :p

I had my camera on a tripod and kept telling myself not to forget to turn it on before I turned the key. When everyone got into the shop, I turned the key on and let the fuel pump run, then hit "start".....and I FORGOT TO TURN ON THE CAMERA! :( Luckily one of my friends recorded it on his phone. The sound quality is pretty bad from the phone but here it is:


https://youtu.be/WICoxjHVMjE

I started my camera a few seconds after the engine fired and here's that video:


https://youtu.be/TvL_6Bf4Ves

I'm happy everything went okay, but bummed that I didn't get better video of it. Oh well..... :eek: I'll see if I can get a better audio of the engine running and post it.

[Custer55]

When I click on the play button it just says this video is unavailable? Glad you got it started and running. That had to be a great feeling.
Brian

[chevynut]

Do the videos work for anyone else? I put them on YouTube but marked them "private".

EDIT: I changed them to "public" because "private" apparently means only I can see them.

[567chevys]

Nope both say

This video not available

Sid

[BamaNomad]

Both videos worked for me... I hope no one expired from CO poisoning.... :)

PS. The engine sounded strong... but would probably sound better outside.. :)

[chevynut]

I don't know what's going on with YouTube. I uploaded the video twice and it's 2 minutes long. The first time it ended up 42 seconds long so I deleted it and uploaded it again. The second time it ended up 1 minute 43 seconds. Don't know why YouTube truncates it. Oh well, at least you can see the startup. It really does sound good but the phone's mic must be a pos.

[Bluegrass Trifive]

I don't know what's going on with YouTube. I uploaded the video twice and it's 2 minutes long. The first time it ended up 42 seconds long so I deleted it and uploaded it again. The second time it ended up 1 minute 43 seconds. Don't know why YouTube truncates it. Oh well, at least you can see the startup. It really does sound good but the phone's mic must be a pos. Sounds like a beast! It should be a blast to drive. Congratulations on hitting this major milestone. I reached a similar point a few months back and it certainly makes one feel good to hear it finally come to life!

[NickP]

Congrats! Been a long haul and you should be proud. Great work! Now, get back to work and finish it. Both Vids work for me.

[WagonCrazy]

Both vids worked for me too this morning. Great job Laszlo! Progress.....
You must have some feeling of elation and maybe a new shot of energy to finish it up and get to driving it.
We all need a shot of that!
Thanks for posting it.

[567chevys]

Hello Laszlo ,

They both play now , I bet you feel Great been Long time coming . Sounds like its going to be nasty a RIDE , I think now that your getting old just to play it safe you better wear Depends on your first test drive :D

Sid

[BamaNomad]

Hello Laszlo ,

They both play now , I bet you feel Great been Long time coming . Sounds like its going to be nasty a RIDE , I think now that your getting old just to play it safe you better wear Depends on your first test drive :D

Sid

:) :) that's probably a great suggestion for him~ :)

[Bitchin'57]

Congrats! The engine sounds like it has a fairly smooth idle.

[chevynut]

Congrats! The engine sounds like it has a fairly smooth idle.

I wouldn't call it "smooth" and it sounds great to me but the cam isn't that wild. It's a custom grind single pattern cam from Mike Jones Cam Designs with a 108 LSA, 226 degrees I&E duration and .610" intake lift with 1.8 ratio Scorpion roller rockers and about .585" lift with 1.75 ratio exhaust rockers. I didn't want a high RPM cam for this engine because it's strictly a street engine (6000 RPM max), so I wanted a lot of torque down low and to run well at 5000 feet elevation. So we went with a pretty early intake closing angle since the engine only has 9.7:1 CR. He tells me I should get over 600 ft-lb of torque and a wide torque band, which is what I was looking for.

I'm trying to get a video of it with better sound quality. I didn't realize it was that hard to get decent sound reproduction from a phone or camera. I took another video today but it's still not that good, especially through the mufflers (which sounds great). I'll try again tomorrow.

Thanks y'all!! :)

[Bitchin'57]

I listened to it again more closely with the speakers turned up, and I could hear a slight bit of chop to the idle. It sounds good. Gotta have a little bit of a choppy idle when putt-puttin' around the show field! ;)

[JT56]

Congrats to you...getting closer to getting behind the wheel and really enjoying the fruits of your labor. Car has a good balance of old, new and custom design...I am happy for ya!

[chevynut]

Here's a video with better sound :). I decreased the image resolution to make a smaller file but it's still pretty huge. I can't get a good video with the sound through the mufflers for some reason but it sounds really good. After this video I warmed up the engine to operating temp and checked the timing against the ECU and synced them up since the engine was a few degrees retarded. Also, I think the throttle plates aren't open far enough at idle so I need to get a slightly longer screw since the one installed is bottomed out.



https://youtu.be/VF99TCwvviQ

[56CAD]

Chevynut, that sounded great!

[chevynut]

Well I've started the 502 a few more times the past month. I put a longer idle screw in the throttle body but don't know for sure where to set it so the IAC motor can work properly. I think I need to set it at the lowest idle I want and let the IAC step it up when it's needed (A/C request, etc.). The engine doesn't seem to want to die after hitting the throttle now like it did in the video.

Also, I tried to do some more checking today to make sure the fans are going to keep the engine cool at idle. The problem is the PC I'm using seems to be screwed up, or the ECU isn't accepting programs for some reason. It worked fine when I started the engine initially, and I checked the ECU program multiple times. However, I pulled the data from the ECU today and the RPM cells, WB parameters, and a bunch of other stuff is screwed up. There were RPM pointers that were over 12,000. So I tried re-loading my program into it and it says it was successful. However, when I pull the data from the ECU again it's still screwed up. So either my computer or communications link is bad or the ECU is bad...or I'm doing it wrong. The computer is constantly giving me runtime errors, and says "not responding" and forces me to shut down the application. I'm going to bet the computer is screwed up so I'll have to find another (the third) one. Until then I'm going to assume the ECU is ok. :geek:

One other thing that has me concerned is the PS pump. It's brand new, and has never been run until I started the engine. When I had it off to machine and install the AN10 inlet fitting I noticed that something rattled inside. I thought it was normal so I installed it. With the engine idling, I tried to turn the steering shaft and I had no assist. The fluid level hasn't gone down in the reservoir either so the rack isn't filling up and I'm afraid the pump isn't pumping at all. It should be full of fluid since the reservoir is above it but I don't know why it doesn't seem to want to bleed the system. I figured I'd have to add fluid. Any ideas? :confused:

[chevynut]

Spent some time looking at the C950 manual tonight and found this:

"Opening a File into the Computer – To open a file into the computer perform the following steps:
1) Select “File” and “Open Data from Disk”
2) Select the file you want to open, either from the hard drive or a disk. (This is explained in “Step-by-Step Initial Startup”).
3) Hit “Enter” or click on “Ok”
4) The file is now in the computer.

Sending a File to the ECU – To send a file to the ECU perform the following steps:
1) Open a file as described above. Do NOT go to any of the other areas in the software, as this will retrieve and corrupt
the data that you just opened.
2) Make sure the ignition is on. After the file is opened, immediately go to “File” and “Send ECU Data”. It will take about one
minute to send the data. When the hourglass changes back to your mouse pointer, the file has been sent."

What I've been doing is loading my maps into the computer, then opening them up to make sure they got loaded correctly, and THEN sending them to the ECU. Apparently that's corrupting them per the warning above. I found out the best way to modify the maps and other info is to do it directly on the ECU with it turned on, then saving the information in a file when done. I've been doing it the other way around....modifying a map, then sending it to the ECU. Either way works as long as you follow the instructions for loading the file.

So I'll give it another try tomorrow and see if that fixes the problems I'm having. :)

I also found out that there's a IAC position readout in the fuel map engine data area. On a C950 there are 255 steps from closed to full open, and each 2.55 steps is 1% open. You're supposed to adjust the idle screw such that the IAC is about 3-5% open or about 8-13 steps. This isn't explicitly stated in the manual but I found it on some Holley forums. Hopefully this addresses another issue. :)

Still not sure what to do about the PS pump. I don't want to remove it until I can do some kind of testing. Maybe it needs to be primed?

[55 Rescue Dog]

Of course the pump needs to be primed. I would be pulling off a line, and try finding a way to spin the pump with the motor off, to test, and prime. It can't pump air, and I would assume it is being turned in the correct direction. Do you kinda miss the good ole carburetor yet?

[chevynut]

Of course the pump needs to be primed. I would be pulling off a line, and try finding a way to spin the pump with the motor off, to test, and prime. It can't pump air, and I would assume it is being turned in the correct direction.

The reservoir is above the pump so the pump should be getting fluid. Why would you have to prime it when gravity takes the fluid into the pump? Today I turned the spindles left and right stop to stop several times with the engine off and got a little air out of the system and the fluid level dropped maybe 1/2" in the reservoir as the rack filled up. I ran the engine again and cycled the steering lock to lock, but still have no power assist. I'm beginning to think I have a defective pump, especially because of that rattling sound in it before I mounted it. What could that be? Is there some way I could have an air pocket in the pump, and if so how do I eliminate it?


Do you kinda miss the good ole carburetor yet?

Not a chance :p. I like messing with the EFI and being able to see everything the engine is doing on the PC, I'd never put one of those POS carbs on my engine unless it was the last resort. ;)

That said, I'm still having issues with data transfer. I re-loaded the program I've been using and it started dumping way too much fuel and spewing black smoke out of the exhaust. It wouldn't even start without the throttle halfway open. So I re-loaded the Holley 502 program and it runs okay again at idle. So something apparently got corrupted in the map I put together that ran fine before. A neighbor is going to give me another XP laptop to try and hopefully that fixes the data transfer problems.

[NickP]

I still have an old Dell XP unit if you need it.

[chevynut]

I still have an old Dell XP unit if you need it.

Thanks for the offer Nick. I messed around with the PC last night and everything seemed to work fine. I could upload and download maps with no issues, no run-time errors, no "not responding" warnings. I told my neighbor I'd take the one he offered me and if the one I'm using starts acting up again I'm done with it. If there's any issue with his I may take you up on your offer. ;)

I did find out what was causing the fuel problem with my map....somehow the hardware setting got changed to TBI from MPI. It's a little confusing if you're not careful when you're uploading and downloading programs and changing things directly in the ECU. I don't know if that setting was a result of a data transfer problem or what caused it. I changed just that setting in the ECU and it fired right up. All the RPM cells seem correct now and everything is looking good for now.

I adjusted idle screw down so the IAC is controlling the idle and it seems to be working fine. Then I re-calibrated the TPS settings. The WB O2 also looks like it's working well. I'm unsure where I should have the idle spark advance set and the Holley map has it at 18 degrees. How do you determine what's optimum? Maximum vacuum? I haven't measured vacuum yet.

One other thing I tried......I got the engine to about 200F and wired the fans on at full speed. In just a couple minutes the temperature was down to 160 and stayed there. It was about 60 degrees in the shop (it was 70 here yesterday) but based on that test I think my cooling capacity is going to be fine. I thought I had a 180 thermostat although I really can't remember what I bought.

Still can't get the PS pump to work. I may have to remove it and see what's wrong. It's turning clockwise and I thought all of them turned the same but I found out they don't. I wonder if S&P screwed me up and sent me a reverse-rotation PS pump....how can you tell by looking at it?

[NickP]

Still can't get the PS pump to work. I may have to remove it and see what's wrong. It's turning clockwise and I thought all of them turned the same but I found out they don't. I wonder if S&P screwed me up and sent me a reverse-rotation PS pump....how can you tell by looking at it?

Thinking back to when all of that took place, it wouldn't surprise me if they (S&P) did mess up. If you never had the opportunity to be in their store, the place was a mess. I liken it to a hoarders home. Being 40 minutes down the road from my house I made the trip often and was always amazed at the mess. Really sad.

[Rick_L]

Type 2 pumps can have either rotation direction, depends on the belt routing. They are different bodies for CW vs. CCW. Real common either way. As you said, with a reservoir above the pump, priming won't be a problem. Bleeding some air by rotating the steering wheel saves time and a lot of weird noises, perhaps even some wear and tear. You'll still have to bleed by turning the steering wheel after the pump is operating. No self bleeding noises indicate to me that the pump isn't pumping.

You have vacuum readings from your logs. It's the MAP sensor reading. Lowest MAP is highest vacuum. Adjusting from your 18 degrees in small steps should give you an idea of what it likes.

[chevynut]

So here's what I found with my PS pump. I took the belt off and spun the pump both ways by hand....it turns real easy but there's no indication of any pumping action either way. The fluid in the reservoir never moved. Then I drained the fluid from the reservoir and removed the lines and removed the pump from the engine. It was full of fluid so I drained it. I tried blowing into both the inlet and outlet fittings, and it acts as if it was completely blocked....no air goes through either fitting even while rotating the pump. I happen to have C4 pump and I blew through both fittings....air goes through the pump without rotating it.

I decided to try to take the pump apart but it's giving me fits. I can't get the aluminum pulley off and don't know how it's attached. When I look through the hole in the center I see a hex in the pump shaft. But the pulley hole is smaller than the shaft. So I assume it's pressed on, and I really don't want to press it off if I don't have to. If I mess up the chromed aluminum pulley I'm screwed because I can't get another one like it.

So I took the round snap ring off the back of the pump figuring I can take it apart that way but the back plate won't come out. Now I'm stuck and don't know what to do. I've searched the internet for instructions or a video on disassembling and rebuilding a Type 2 pump and can't find anything useful.

The pump I have has an aluminum body and some casting marks on it. I don't know what it's made for, I just ordered it from S&P with the rest of the accessory drive.

Any help? Not sure where to turn now but I believe there's something wrong with the pump.

[chevynut]

Adjusting from your 18 degrees in small steps should give you an idea of what it likes.

What does "what it likes" mean? Should I be shooting for the maximum vacuum I can get, or what do I look for? I can't go by the idle because the IAC will control that.

The Holley manual only says "Optimizing timing is vert important for best idle" and "The timing an engine needs at idle varies widely depending on its specifications. Typically the bigger the cam the more qdvance the engine needs for the best idle". They give no information as to what "best idle" means or what to look for and I'm not experienced in that area.

[chevynut]

Update on the PS pump :). I took the bracket off of it and started hammering on the back plate with a plastic mallet, trying to loosen it and knock it out so I could look inside....but it wouldn't budge. For some reason I tried to blow through it again and I could! I must have dislodged something with the mallet, maybe a stuck vane or something. So I put a hex key in my drill and went over to my solvent bench and put the solvent nozzle in the inlet of the pump and spun it. I got it to pump solvent :eek:. I ran it a while to try to clean out whatever was making it hang up (it's been sitting for over 10 years) and it seemed like it was pumping pretty strong. Not sure what was stuck.

Anyhow, I put the lock ring and bracket back on, reinstalled the pump, reservoir, and lines, filled it with fluid, purged it a little, and started the engine. Now I can clearly see I'm getting fluid circulating back into the reservoir.

I tried steering it and it still doesn't seem to have any assist with the engine running, but it's not hard to turn. I'm only turning the steering u-joint with no wheels on the chassis, so there's no load. So I'm assuming that the fluid is supposed to circulate continuously through the pump, rack valve, and reservoir, and the assist only happens when the valve senses a load at the rack, then it directs fluid to the rack cylinder.

Does that sound right? I sure don't want to pull the rack out later. How can I test the pump to make sure I'm getting full pressure? How can I test the rack?

[chevynut]

I still have an old Dell XP unit if you need it.

Got another runtime error today after installing the ps pump. When I get that I have to re-boot the computer and it takes forever. My neighbor told me his computer is actually a W7 computer but he has some kind of bootable XP emulator thingie he thinks may work. He's an IT guy so I'm taking his word for it but I'm not really optimistic since he told me today it's taking a lot longer than he expected to load it.

So I may take you up on your offer after all. :) I'll let you know.

[Rick_L]

Idle quality assessment is dependent on your ear and feel as well as the higher the vacuum, the better it's running. No need for over complication. It's what YOU want it to be.

On the p/s pulley, you need a special puller/installer tool for the GM pump. HF has one that's somewhat decent for not too much.

The power steering valve in your rack is "open center". This means that when you aren't steering the car, fluid moves through the valve and returns to tank. Under this condition, there is no pressure generated other than what it takes to move fluid through the lines. It won't even register on a gauge. Maximum pressure and flow is maintained by the flow/pressure regulator valve in the pump outlet. Any excess pressure or flow is bypassed back to the pump inlet. Your flow/pressure control valve may have been stuck open and freed up by the hammer blows.

Not sure how you'd be able to feel assist without having tires on the ground. I've never been able to with them in the air, or with the wheels/tires removed. There's just not enough resistance.

Keep in mind that the system only has the pressure it needs to overcome resistance. You'll only see maximum pressure when you take the box or rack to full travel.

[chevynut]

Idle quality assessment is dependent on your ear and feel as well as the higher the vacuum, the better it's running. No need for over complication. It's what YOU want it to be.

Okay I guess that helps a little. It's idling at 850 RPM and don't think it can go too much lower. It was a little higher and it sounded a lot different. On cold startup it goes to 1100 RPM and drops as it warms up based on what's programmed into the IAC table. I'll mess with the timing and see what the vacuum does. I also think the fuel map may be a little rich on a cold start but I haven't really looked closely at that. It just smells like it's rich. Once it gets to 120F I have it set to go closed loop and idle at 15:1 A/F which it seems to do pretty well. I haven't done any other tuning.


On the p/s pulley, you need a special puller/installer tool for the GM pump.

The special GM tool won't work on my pulley. The pulley is a custom aluminum one from S&P and doesn't have anything to grab onto. I think maybe the best way to get it off would be to support the pulley on a press and press on the shaft through the center of the pulley. I don't think I need to do that now.

7984




The power steering valve in your rack is "open center". This means that when you aren't steering the car, fluid moves through the valve and returns to tank. Under this condition, there is no pressure generated other than what it takes to move fluid through the lines.

Looks like that's what I'm getting. I can clearly see flow back to the reservoir when looking into it.


Your flow/pressure control valve may have been stuck open and freed up by the hammer blows.

Not sure I see how that would have prevented me from blowing through the pump. Anyhow, something came loose.


Not sure how you'd be able to feel assist without having tires on the ground. I've never been able to with them in the air, or with the wheels/tires removed. There's just not enough resistance.

Thanks for confirming what I concluded. The rack feels the same whether the engine is running or not. Once I got the pump working I noticed the engine loads down a little near the ends of the rack travel, so it must be building pressure. I'll call it done and keep my fingers crossed that everything works when the car's together. Thanks for the input! ;)

[Rick_L]

Looking at your pulley, I can see it doesn't have the flange that the puller uses for a GM pulley. The tool when used for installation also pushes a stock style pulley on to the correct fore/aft location. So it's purely a custom deal and you have to use other means to install or remove.