replacing quarter panel

[picker45]

Well I've been hashing this around in my head for some 6 months, and I've decided to lap joint my quarter than butt weld it. I know that some don't like it but when I cant get to the crest of the quarter to hammer the weld, nor to be able to seal it, I've decided to flange the quarter and no water will get into the joint it will be totally sealed. What you all think. Of course I already said I'm going to lap joint vs. butt so I only want your opinion, lol Bh

[Run-em]

Most that butt weld do it to keep water OUT. If you take care & do the same, I should think it will not make any difference.

[NDFabrications]

I did a set of quarters on a 72 chevelle wagon about 15 years ago lap joint with a crimper tool and the car was diven year round. Had the car for 12 years and never showed any signs of corrosion. I think lap would be just fine

[chevynut]

I personally wouldn't do a lap weld, but it sounds like that's what you've decided to do, so I'm not sure what opinions you want.

Do you plan to spot weld it, or make a full weld bead. The full bead is going to cause just as much distortion as a butt-weld and it will be harder to straighten. A spot (plug) weld seam won't cause as much distortion, but it will leave lots of area for moisture to enter. If you seal the entire seam, you can alleviate that and it should work...but imo that's not the "right" way to replace a quarter on a restoration...maybe for collision work on a regular car. Some would call it a hack job. To me, it's as bad as sculpting the body with 1/2" of bondo...sure it'll work and last for many years, but it's not right imo. If I bought a car with a quarter that was lap-welded, it would come off and I would redo it right.

Sorry, you wanted opinions, so that's mine.

Here's how I did my quarters. I made a seam about 5/8" behind the door and all along the top of the quarter, about 3/4" from the original seam. I also had to remove the "dip" since the quarter is made for a hardtop......it's all butt-welded:

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL97/465705/4009142/357619739.jpg

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL97/465705/4009142/357944906.jpg

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL97/465705/4009142/358579293.jpg

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL97/465705/4009142/366103641.jpg

[chevynut]

Here's a couple more in epoxy primer. By the way, I had a guy call me a few months ago about problems he was having installing his quarter panel. Someone talked him into flanging and lap welding it and it was giving him fits. He couldn't get it to stay straight, and was having all sorts of problems. I convinced him to cut the flanges off, and butt-weld it. He called me back later and said it worked a lot better that way.

The important thing when butt-welding is to take your time and get a perfect fit before you start welding it up. If it fits then, there's no reason it can't be made to look the same after welding.


http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL97/465705/4009142/366103670.jpg

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL97/465705/4009142/366103688.jpg

[chevynut]

I just noticed you are doing a 57....and a sedan at that. There's a lot less welding on a 57 since the fins have a pinch weld. There's a lot less welding on a sedan or HT because the rear window area is formed on the quarters. I had about 11 feet of butt-weld per quarter because for some stupid reason they don't make wagon quarters.

I believe they now make quarters for a 57 sedan......I would definitely use them.

Also, if you don't use the sedan quarters, be SURE to round the "dip" area at the corner or you will get a lot more puckering there.

[BAM55]

Looking good Chevynut, I also do not do lap joints unless it was like that from the factory. Butt welding makes for a nicer repair that you can metal finish and use little to no filler. Lap welding a body panel will limit you ability to metal finish (double layer metal) and cause you to use way more filler.

[chevynut]

Bam, I agree with you that it will likely be harder to make the panels straight if they're lapped, and will probably require more filler.

I did those quarters quite a while ago as you can see by the dates. It took virtually no filler to make them smooth, except at the joint to the rocker. I sprayed a couple coats of SlickSand over the epoxy, and that's about all it took. I replaced both quarters.

This is the car now, in final primer....

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL97/465705/12624445/401781059.jpg

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL97/465705/12624445/401780692.jpg

[BAM55]

Its looking great man. You've done a wonderful job. I'm also a fan of slick sand. It fills and sands so easy. I was going to start a thread about it. Just to let people know how great I think it is.
http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6144/5996046750_d657c14c53.jpg

[Romax55]

Just my opinion , but I'm with the guys who say no to the lap-weld ; even the best lap joint is a harbour for moisture , and like Chevynut says , it's okay for a normal car , but a resto of an old car demands you get it butt-welded . They finish up with less BS and if done carefully , need next to no filler . When you're done you don't have to sweat every time it rains or you drive through a puddle on the highway . Just IMO . Be safe...Bob.

[Romax55]

Its looking great man. You've done a wonderful job. I'm also a fan of slick sand. It fills and sands so easy. I was going to start a thread about it. Just to let people know how great I think it is.
http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6144/5996046750_d657c14c53.jpg

Damn , I like that 55 dash in your pickup ; did you have to narrow it ? Be safe...Bob.

[BAM55]

Damn , I like that 55 dash in your pickup ; did you have to narrow it ? Be safe...Bob.

No narrowing was needed but a lot of slicing and dicing to make it flow.

[Rick_L]

Picker, back to your original question, I just did a Sherman quarter panel on my 55. Butt welded everything. I can't imagine straightening or hammering lap welded joints. If any end up high, you'll have a difficult time hammer and dollying them down. I had to hammer and dolly just about 100% of the welds. The only exception was the joint along the top of the quarter - it didn't requre much. But if you lap welded that, I'd be afraid of the whole seam being too high or too low with no recourse, because once you flange that, you're stuck wih what you flanged.

The Sherman quarter is a hardtop quarter, and you have to do what Cnut described at the belt line dip. A wagon doesn't have one, and a sedan's is further back than a ht.

Your best bet may be a quarter made by Gold Star. Resto World sells them. They are true sedan quarters. The only deal on it vs. the 55 Sherman quarter are how they stamp and shape the wheel cutout and rocker area. I can tell you that on a 55 Sherman panel the wheel cutout is not as crisp as original and the rocker is not bent far enough. From what I've read on the "other site" those areas are not right on the Gold Star 55 sedan panel either, just different. I was able to work through the issues on the Sherman panel. I have no idea what the issues are on 57 panels, but I'm sure there is something.

One more thing, and this may be worth thinking about. There are two ways to do a lap joint. The one most used is to use a flanging tool. But there is another way, and it may turn out better. Rather than flanging the panel, use a separate piece as a backup. In other words, you have a separate piece of sheet metal 1" wide or so under the seam. That eliminates distortion from a flanging tool, but the joint is still stiff and can't be hammer and dollied. With either the backup sheetmetal or a flange, you're going to be tempted to weld a continuous bead and that's going to be a warpage problem.

[picker45]

Thanks guys for your comments. Now the rest of the story. I've a friend who had his convertible restored by Patricks Classy Chevy in Phoenix who has the record at Barrett Jackson for restored convertibles of 55-57, his resto mod 57 conv this year hit $245,000 and guess what? he lap joints all his panels. That's where I got the idea from. I agree with all but how do you hammer the weld on the ridge of the quarter. You cant get to it. I don't know how otherwise without the lap joint. You've got the inner fender well blocking you from getting to it. YOu would need two people to hammer and dolly that. I thought you all would like to know that the guy who holds the record, lap joints and bondo. His comment was, these are show cars and won't be in rain. They won't wash them?
Dropped off 283 motor to have it bored to 4". Guess where I'm headed with that puppy? Later BH

[Rick_L]

You can get to virtually all of that joint on a 55-56. Much of that joint is covered by the crown molding on the fin on a 57.

The hardest area to get to for me to access for hammering the weld was the seam at the front door jamb. Since I have a sedan and the quarter is for a hardtop, I made the seam about 3/4" back of the door opening, keeping the oriiginal jamb.

I won't argue with a man that can lap joint quarter panels and get $200k + for a car. Still doesn't change my mind.

Also, there are two ways to do lap joints. One is to flange one of the panels. The chance of distorted metal is high before you even get the welder plugged in. Another way is to fabricate a strip, say 1" wide, that goes under what would otherwise be a butt welded joint.

[chevynut]

I wonder if the buyer knew the joints were lap welded. You can hide just about anything with bondo...for a while. I'd be pissed if I found out.

What made the car worth $245K? Got any pics?

[BAM55]

I wonder if the buyer knew the joints were lap welded. You can hide just about anything with bondo...for a while. I'd be pissed if I found out.


I would also be pissed on a car of that magnitude, but they may never find out as often as those show cars change hands. Now a car I buy on the street I expect and seen awful things but a car that is work 245,000 It better look good in bare metal.

Personally I've never seen a car I thought was worth 245,000 no matter how good it looks. I know there are a few that sale with that price tag, but man that is a lot of money to pay for a car lap welds or no lap welds. I saw some very famous car builders rides up close and personal and I was not impressed the body work and I've seen some garage built rides that were straight as an arrow. All I'm saying is quality of work is not always reflected in that price tag.

Not only speaking in general terms I have not seen this 245,000 dollar car.

[Rick_L]

There's an awful lot of cars from "name shops" that have a LOT of bondo, some with a butter coat over the whole car. You can level it with block sanding but will it stay that way?

One of the things I'd fear about a lap weld would be thermal expansion. Will there be a witness line if the car sits in the sun all day?

[BAM55]

There's an awful lot of cars from "name shops" that have a LOT of bondo, some with a butter coat over the whole car. You can level it with block sanding but will it stay that way?

One of the things I'd fear about a lap weld would be thermal expansion. Will there be a witness line if the car sits in the sun all day?

Yes I agree totally.

[Tabasco]

I found a picture of the $240,000 car. Here is a link to their website http://patricksclassycars.com/ They have pictures of several high dollar cars.

http://patricksclassycars.com/content/Barrett_Jackson Scottdale_2012/1957_Chevrolet Bel Air Convertible_Hot Rod_Sold_240000/2011_Grant1957 (18).JPG

[Run-em]

If you can't get to it to seal it if butt welded, how is a lap joint going to be fully sealed?

[chevynut]

Wow, that's a nice 57 but I sure don't see $240K in it. They don't even show pics of the engine or chassis. The wheels seem low-buck to me. The buyer probably likes red. LOL!

[chevynut]

This is a car buddy of mines 57 and I think it is every bit as nice as that car posted other than the fact that its not a convertible. He has at the most 40-50 in his car and that is because he farmed out a lot of the work.

I don't know how he built that car for $40-50K farming out a lot of the work. I have about $45K in my Nomad and I've done 100% of the work so far. I also shopped for good deals on parts, like the 502 longblock I bought for $4400 an the Ramjet EFI I pieced together with new parts. I have $2200 in the exhaust alone, counting the EW headers, stainless magnaflow mufflers, DMH cutouts, and all of the 3" stainless v-band clamps, tubing and mandrel bends I welded together myself. I have most of the parts now, but still have paint, chrome, and interior work to get done.

[Rick_L]

Even if he did all the work himself, how can he say he made a profit? Is his time not worth anything, even if it wasn't cash out of his pocket?

As for the $264000 convertible, the buyer didn't pay market price. Nice restored stock 57 convertibles sell for $45-50k, I find it hard to believe you'd have to pay $75k for the mods on it. So that's $125, and you can't get that back out of it most days most places. Cheap wheels? Those appear to be Budniks, and they aren't cheap by my standards, though there are ways to spend more.

You seem to have a double standard on the wheels vs. the other costs you boast.

[BAM55]

Even if he did all the work himself, how can he say he made a profit? Is his time not worth anything, even if it wasn't cash out of his pocket?


Rick I agree with you on my buddy's ride I thought that was low but he is happy with the money so who am I to argue. I hated the fact that he sold it but he sold it to friend of his. I guess when you owned the car for many years, you forget all the work that went into them. Plus we all know we could never get back the labor that went into them. Plus he may feel that way because it was cash at one time and not spread over the build for years like he built it. I don't know its not my car and I would not have sold it for that. I told him that and other guys I know told me they would and they have clean cars so I thought maybe I'm the sentimental one.lol

My point was I could not image what a 240 thousand dollar classic car looks like. I've seem some beautiful cars in my life but 243,000, a 100,000 yes even 120 but 240 man that's crazy. That car must have pure gold exhaust, brake and fuel lines.

[chevynut]

LOL.You have to have friends Chevynut.lol He farmed out to friends and have buddies that can do what he can't. Like body and paint. I've done IFS installations for buddy's for as little as 600 bucks those are friend prices. Also bartering is possible you do something for me and I'll do something for you.lol You paint my car and I'll install your front and rear suspension or fab your dash or whatever.

That's cheating. ;) If I counted the money I made from my C4 conversions, my car cost me nothing. :)

Besides, we're not talking about labor, which is what friends might do. I'm talking about parts only. I could have bartered some, but if I sell my parts and buy other parts isn't that the same as bartering? I have sold lots of Tri5 and corvette parts. Some of this gets philosophical.



I don't know what the hell you guys are doing but man you guys are spending a hell of a lot of money.

I keep a spreadsheet with my costs, just for grins. Here's a quick high-level summary of what I've spent so far:

Car $500
Body/trim $11200 (sheetmetal, liftgate straightening, moldings, fillers, primers, supplies)
Chassis $3300 (seamless frame, suspension, coilovers, steel)
Engine/Acc $9500 (longblock, manifolds, sensors, TB, ECM, alt, brackets/pulleys)
Exhaust $2250 (headers, stainless tubing/bends, mufflers, v-band clamps, cutouts)
Trans/clutch $4200 (T56, shifter, clutch, TO bearing, fork, slave, master, driveshaft)
Fuel system $850 (tank, pump, sender, plumbing)
Cooling $1200 (fans, radiator/condenser, sensors, overflow)
Steering $950 (column, u-joints, shaft, steering wheel)
A/C $1350 (evap kit, lines, bulkhead, fittings)
Interior $1480 (seats, seatbelts, Raammat, mirror)
Wheels/tires $2100
Brakes $2482 (Baer kit, ABS brake pump, prop valve, plumbing)
Electrical $2300 (wiring, door lock/window/fan/light controllers, fuse panel, cruise control, battery, battery box, pdl, pw, raingear, keyless entry)


I'll bet most guys have 30-50% more in their cars than they say, when you add the "nickel and dime" stuff. It really adds up. Plus I've spent thousands on tools and equipment to build the car. :)

[Rick_L]

Looking at your list, it's very easy to pile up a bunch more expense in fittings, connectors, fasteners, welding rod, sandpaper, specialty tools, and the list goes on and on. Stuff that's not a big ticket item on your list but associated with every one of them. I know I buy these kind of things 3-4 times a month, and the bill is a lot more than the cost of a meal or even a tank of gas.

[BAM55]

That's cheating. ;) If I counted the money I made from my C4 conversions, my car cost me nothing. :)

Oh and by the way I was wrong about the yellow 55. I talk to a buddy last night who told me it sold for 37 thousand, still too low if you ask me, but he is happy.

It may be cheating but I don't have that kind of money.lol I don't count money that did not come out of my pocket I consider that a trade.lol I have gotten rearends, engines, heads, cams, tools through the barter system. I don't count that towards my build. Also most of my car buddy cars are garage or backyard paint jobs and thats a huge expense these days.



I'll bet most guys have 30-50% more in their cars than they say, when you add the "nickel and dime" stuff. It really adds up. Plus I've spent thousands on tools and equipment to build the car. :)

I could not agree more I believe that to be true. I don't think people count the nickel and dime stuff and yes it does add up thats why we don't like to count it.lol Sand paper, flap disc, cutoff wheels, welding wire, welding gas, scrap metal, filler, etc. adding that stuff would make you crazy. Not to mention the screw ups and redos.lol

I also keep a speadsheet but when I hit a certain total grand I deleted it.lol I just thought my wife does not need to see this.lol

Chevynut from what you've said you spent 45 so far. For the sake of agreement lets say you spent another 20 for paint and interior. That brings us to 65 grand. The hell with it lets add another 10 grand because its play money.lol As nice as your ride is I can really see that. 75 grand and you have a beautiful nomad. Just like I can see that guy with the black convert caddy had 70-80 in that car. I also could see the purchaser paying 98 for it. But a quarter of a million for a car that looks no better than any other nicely built car. I know it sold for that I looked that webpage but that is just crazy. Maybe its just me it but I don't see anything special about it other than its a very nice convertible.

[Troy]

Chevynut, I don't see the drivers side rear quarter Belair Script and Shield or holes in these pics are you adding them later?




Bam, I agree with you that it will likely be harder to make the panels straight if they're lapped, and will probably require more filler.

I did those quarters quite a while ago as you can see by the dates. It took virtually no filler to make them smooth, except at the joint to the rocker. I sprayed a couple coats of SlickSand over the epoxy, and that's about all it took. I replaced both quarters.

This is the car now, in final primer....

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL97/465705/12624445/401781059.jpg

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL97/465705/12624445/401780692.jpg

[chevynut]

Troy, the holes are there, they just don't show up in the pic. I stuck some used parts on the passenger side and didn't put any on the driver's side. Here's another pic where you can kinda see them....