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chevynut
04-13-2018, 08:29 PM
I was getting ready to remove my headers to send them off for coating but decided to do one more timing check to make sure the timing was synced up on the Ramjet 502 so I don't burn the headers up when they get back.

I'm running the engine with a Holley Commander 950 PRO ECU without the GM Spark Control Module and knock sensor wired up. So the ECU is controlling the distributor directly. The COMP double roller timing chain and GM distributor are brand new as is the MSD coil. Cranking ignition timing advance is set at 15 degrees and 18 degrees at idle in the spark map.

With the engine running and timing light hooked up the timing is wandering quite a bit. It's so bad I can't really tell where it is, but it's somewhere between 10 and 20 degrees I think. The engine idles a little rough with the cam I'm using, especially before it warms up because it's running open-loop under 120 degrees and runs on the rich side. But I believe the timing is set at the same at all RPMs I achieve at idle and a wide range of MAP signal. The next step is 20 degrees but I don't think I get to that RPM at idle. Warm idle is about 850-900 and cold idle starts at 1100, slowly dropping with temperature. It seems like no matter what the RPM does, the ignition timing should be steady when idling.

I don't know if the problem is the ECU, the distributor, or my timing light. I'm running the engine off of a different battery than the timing light, but both batteries are grounded to the engine. This is just for convenience, nothing else. The alternator is not hooked up but I have a charger on the battery. The timing light seems to be functioning correctly or at least it fires repeatedly like its supposed to.

I don't recall it doing this when I checked timing after firing it up for the first time, but maybe it did and I didn't notice it. It's a little hard to see the timing mark down there. :geek:

What's the most likely cause? Is there anything else I should be looking at?

TrifiveRichard
04-14-2018, 05:32 AM
How’s the idle rpm Laszlo? Not familiar with your specific ignition box, but could the advance be changing because the rpm is? Is the rpm stable when the engine is warming up? How does the advance vary when the engine is warmed up?

chevynut
04-14-2018, 05:47 AM
Dick, like I said the engine idles a little rough due to the cam I'm using that has 108 degree lobe centerlines. It's just a little "lopey". I'll check the spark map again but I think almost all of the cells in the spark map have 18 degrees in them at idle conditions and I think that's up to 1200 RPM which I don't think it reaches at idle. I did find one weird cell value in the map when I downloaded it from the ECU. I've seen this before and I don't know if it's my PC, the interface cable, USB to Serial adapter, or the ECU causing it. I corrected the cell value and thought it worked but I probably should download it again and look to see if it's right. I still need to get the other PC I have working so I can replace the one I'm using that seems to have some issues. However, the engine should run without the PC anyhow as long as the map is loaded correctly.

chevynut
04-14-2018, 07:45 AM
I think maybe I see at least part of the problem. I just downloaded the spark map in the ECU and looked at it. It has the same weird value of 63.75 degrees in the cell corresponding to a MAP of 76 and RPM of 1000 that I saw yesterday. The Cell at 76/800 has 20 degrees. All of the cells from 400 to 1000 RPM and 12-137 MAP should have 18 degrees. I input the correct values yesterday and I thought they were entered into the ECU correctly but apparently not. Advance goes to 23 degrees for all MAP values at 1200 RPM which it might see when idling cold.

I'm running a spark map provided by Holley, but I don't know if it's right. I don't know why I even need a 400 RPM cell column since the engine will never operate there.

chevynut
04-14-2018, 08:08 AM
One more thing.....I found out that the ECU interpolates between cells for spark advance. In other words if the 1000 RPM cell says 18 degrees and the 1200 RPM cell is 23 degrees, if the engine is at 1100 it will run 20.5 degrees advance. Maybe that's why it's looking erratic. I also think that 63.75 value is screwing with the timing if it's really what's in the ECU. The 76 MAP value and 1000 RPM is right where it idles until it warms up. Not sure why that value is corrupted.

I guess I need to start it up and watch the PC to see what advance it's running at, then check it with the timing light when it warms up and stabilizes.

chevynut
04-14-2018, 10:59 AM
Well I think I fixed it. :) I tried several times to change those bogus numbers in the spark map to no avail. I could change them, but when I saved the file and retrieved it again it was still messed up. I don't know if I'm doing it wrong or what.

So I decided to start fresh with a 502 map from Holley that I had to modify for my TPS settings and WB O2 stuff. Once I got it set up I saved it and loaded it into the ECU and started up the engine. Sure enough, the timing is solid now and the engine idles a lot differently. Before it was "lopey" but now it's more "choppy" and sounds better to me.

I don't know when or how this changed, but I looked at my original Nomad map and it also has the bogus numbers in it. So somewhere along the line there must have been a glitch that I saved in the file. I was using a serial port but changed to a USB to serial adapter somewhere along the way. Anyhow, I hope it's fixed now.

TrifiveRichard
04-15-2018, 05:51 AM
Cool, sounds like you found/ fixed the problem Laszlo. The 66 Chevy II I built not too long ago has a FAST ECU and distributor controlling a mark iv LS-6 454 with aluminum heads, hydraulic roller, electronic hilborn individual runner fuel injection (near 600hp - a good street machine). It’s amazing how well it runs with the ecu controls.

chevynut
04-15-2018, 08:16 AM
Now that I resolved the erratic timing problem and have consistent spark advance, I want to make sure I have the idle timing set where it should be. The Holley 502 spark map has 18 degrees at idle as I mentioned. However, in the Holley C950 Pro manual they say....

"The timing an engine needs at idle varies widely depending on its specifications. Typically, the bigger the cam, the more advance the engine needs for the best idle. It is not uncommon that an engine with a big cam likes 25-32° of timing at idle. Stock engines may only like 4-12° at idle. A camshaft with more duration will require more initial advance. Some aggressive camshaft profiles may require as much as 24-28° initial timing."

Some articles I found on the web say that with vacuum advance connected, idle spark advance can go into the high 20s and they specify that "initial timing" is without any vacuum advance. I found a pretty good article on the web:

http://www.autospeed.com/cms/article.html?&title=Getting-the-Ignition-Timing-Right&A=109132

"Most engines will idle happily with an ignition advance of 15 - 32 degrees. This is a very wide range - some engines will certainly not be happy at 32 degrees and others won't be at 15 degrees! An overly high amount of ignition advance for a given engine will result in lumpiness at idle, excessive hydrocarbon emissions and sometimes exhaust popping, while too little advance will also cause lumpiness. If the engine runs closed loop fuel control at idle, too much idle timing advance can disrupt the oxygen sensor reading, causing the self-learning process to overly enrich the idle mixture. Setting the optimal ignition timing can therefore best be done by trial and error variations."

What does "best" and "like" mean? What does "happy" mean? This all seems very ambiguous to me so how do I tell when my engine idle advance is set right? I know too much advance on startup will cause the engine to kick back, making starting hard. But since I have a separate "cranking spark advance" built in that's irrelevant at idle. So what is it that you look for to get the "best" idle advance setting? They talk about a "lumpy" idle but I'll have that with the "right" amount of timing too.

Also, as I understand it, "base timing" is pretty much irrelevant when you've synced the actual engine timing with the spark map setting. If that's the case I don't understand why you would want to disconnect the computer control of the distributor to set timing once the engine is running. Holley actually sells an adapter to allow you to do that and I don't see the purpose of it. There is a location in the ECU program to enter "timing reference" which is the same as "base timing". How does the ECU use that? I know mine uses that for cranking advance but I think that's all. So what will it hurt to change it?

So it seems like with the engine running I could just turn the distributor until I get what I want (whatever that is :)), then read the idle advance using a timing light. Then re-sync the distributor with the ECU and set the map to the reading I got with the timing light.

Rick_L
04-15-2018, 08:51 AM
What does "best" and "like" mean? What does "happy" mean?

My definition of that, and I think the author's too, would be that the engine is idling the smoothest possible with the least variation in idle speed, and that the idle speed is the lowest that is stable, with the most vacuum (lowest MAP). All this knowing that a big cam will make this more difficult, by its nature. An extension of that is that the engine will take more throttle opening smoothly. Proof that you're there is that changing things makes any of those characteristics worse. To determine all this, part of it is by ear, part is going to be by looking at the scanner data, looking mostly at idle speed and MAP.

Don't make this hard, you'd aim for the same thing with a mechanical/vacuum distributor and a carb. The nice thing with EFI is that you can add idle timing without affecting timing under other conditions. I.e., you have separate cranking timing and can have any timing you need above idle, as long as the transition is smooth.

chevynut
04-16-2018, 10:45 AM
Thanks for the input. With the broad range of "acceptable" idle advance it's not clear to me what's good and what's not. I've move the distributor at least 15 degrees and nothing much seems to change as far as how the engine sounds. Moving the distributor is a lot easier than changing the spark map and I can re-sync when I get it set where I want it. I was just concerned about burning up the header coating, but perhaps the header temperature at idle isn't what I should be worried about.

Looking at idle speed doesn't seem like a good metric because the IAC tries to compensate for the choppy idle as it bounces around due to the cam. I'll see if I can see any difference in the MAP or not. Sounds like I may want as much idle advance as I can get as long as it starts and runs good.

Troy
04-16-2018, 11:11 AM
Hello Lazlo,

I don't claim to know anything about these new fangled electronic fuel injections and ignitions, but on all of my modern cars to check or set the timing there's usually a plug that has to be jumpered to adjust it. Is that something that might be going on with yours?

chevynut
04-16-2018, 11:26 AM
Hello Lazlo,

I don't claim to know anything about these new fangled electronic fuel injections and ignitions, but on all of my modern cars to check or set the timing there's usually a plug that has to be jumpered to adjust it. Is that something that might be going on with yours?

No Troy, that plug is there so you can set the base timing on a factory setup. On mine I just sync the ECM timing to the engine timing and I'm done. The only thing the base timing if for on the C950 is cranking advance. I guess I can set that anywhere I want to. And I got the erratic timing fixed. There were some bogus numbers in the spark map for some reason. I could even hear popping out of the exhaust now and then and I think that was due to the 63.75 degrees that was in one cell. Still don't understand how that got there and I hope my ECU isn't flaky.

Fladiver64
04-16-2018, 12:35 PM
Lazlo,

I have been tuning my LT1 with a mega squirt ecu and have had some of the same issues that you have run into. Couple of things I have learned is all the work you are trying to fine turn at idle without a running/driving car is just a guess at best. As you have noted the computer interpolates data between cells so what may be the "best" idle in park , is not the best in Drive or may cause a stumble right off idle, so all of this will get returned many times over in getting the car driving well.

I am not familiar with the Holley commander system but I did find it easier to disable some of the closed loop systems while I was getting the base maps correct. For example I would run the IAC at a fixed position vs engine temp and then tune the timing and idle fuel maps for smoothest idle and best vacuum, then re adjust the iac. Once you get a good idle with the fixed iac position, then let it control the idle. Otherwise you end up in a loop of one thing tying to correct another and it is very difficult to find the sweet spot.

You also have to find what your combination likes, for example one of the options that is very common on newer EFi engines is for the computer to vary the timing to maintain idle speed, my engine combination did not like this method at all and ran very rough as it took too much timing variation for the differences between Park, Drive and AC on or off. I ended up with a combination of IAC and timing advance/retard vs a target Idle rpm working the best for my combination.

chevynut
04-16-2018, 12:58 PM
Thanks for the feedback Michael. I don't have "park" and "drive" :) so I don't have to worry about that and I don't think it will change with a running car. I don't know if I have the capability to disable the IAC without disconnecting it but I can check. I do know that my throttle plates aren't open far enough to let the engine idle by itself, without the IAC opening. That's one of the adjustments I had to make. Also, there is an A/C input so the ECU knows when the compressor is engaged and it bumps the idle up. Did you have a wide range where your engine didn't seem to respond to changes in idle timing? I know I can disable my O2 sensor and run open loop so maybe I'll try that.

chevynut
04-16-2018, 06:19 PM
I give up! :mad: I started the engine a couple of times and the PC gave me a "runtime error" and made me re-boot it to get it to work. The RPM cells had 12,000+ RPM in them when I tried to read the ECU. However, after I re-booted the data was correct so it's the damned PC. I ordered a new disc drive for an XP Professional PC I have that I already ordered a new battery and charger for, so I'll get it set up. Really tired of this PC screwing me up.

And that's not all. The last time I re-booted it I tried to start the engine and the starter wouldn't engage. It spins but won't engage the flywheel. :cry: So I said screw it and pulled the headers and put them in a box to ship to Jet Hot. Now I have to pull the starter and see WTH is wrong with it. It worked flawlessly up til today.

Is it still Friday the 13th?? :confused::(

Rick_L
04-16-2018, 07:32 PM
Looking at idle speed doesn't seem like a good metric because the IAC tries to compensate for the choppy idle as it bounces around due to the cam.

Maybe look at the IAC counts instead of speed. You just want to smooth things the best you can with timing and fuel. And set the target idle speed up a little too if needed.

Fladiver64
04-17-2018, 11:10 AM
I forgot about that third pedal hanging down. Normally in the idle section there is a way to run open loop, that way the IAC is set to a fixed number based on engine temp. Once warmed up you are right the throttle blades need to be set such the IAC is almost closed, is low idle counts. Other wise you may not have enough room left for additional air at cold start, and things like ac coming on.

Im not sure what you are using for a USB adapter but I do know some devices are very picky about the chipsets uses in the adapters. I am currently using a Bluetooth adapter from here https://www.efianalytics.com/register/browseProducts.jsp?ecuFamily=MegaSquirt&productCategory=Hardware. Works as good as the wired one and nice to not have the cable.

I did have timing issues when I first started, bit my engine has gm better idea of putting the distributor under the water pump, the great optispark. My problem turned out to be an in accurate timing mark on the balancer . this cause the computer to be off by about 15 degrees from the engine.

I am running 20 degrees at idle speed and map, then I have a close loop correction set for a target idle speed of 800 rpm, if rpm drops then I add 2 degrees of timing for each 50 rpm and drop 3 degrees for each 50 rpm over. This is much faster control than the IAC can manage, if the drops are larger or longer then the IAC makes corrections.

Of course after getting this all set then running the car I had to make big changes to the fuel maps, which then started the process over, as many of the correction in tuning are made off the base maps.

All said it is still better than tearing carbs apart for jet changes.

One other mistake I make was too much accel enrichment to start with. I fouled a couple sets of plugs quickly before I got things close. The computer can add way more fuel than an accel pump. So pull plugs often in the beginning to see where things are at.

chevynut
04-17-2018, 03:17 PM
Im not sure what you are using for a USB adapter but I do know some devices are very picky about the chipsets uses in the adapters. I am currently using a Bluetooth adapter from here https://www.efianalytics.com/register/browseProducts.jsp?ecuFamily=MegaSquirt&productCategory=Hardware. Works as good as the wired one and nice to not have the cable.

The Holley ECU doesn't have bluetooth capability and the connection to it is just 3 wires. The other end of the Holley-supplied cable has the serial RS-232 connector.

https://images.holley.com/583x/534-140.jpg
And it's dangerous too. In Commiefornia! :D

https://images.holley.com/prop65_warning.png

I prefer a direct wired connection from a serial port to the ECU especially since it's readily accessible. The problem is the PC I'm using doesn't have a serial port, so I got the USB to serial adapter for it from Best Buy and I suspect it's giving me problems. I've read they can be very finicky. The other PC I'm trying to set up has a serial port. I can't run anything past Windows XP for this software so I have to resurrect an old PC I have.


I am running 20 degrees at idle speed and map, then I have a close loop correction set for a target idle speed of 800 rpm, if rpm drops then I add 2 degrees of timing for each 50 rpm and drop 3 degrees for each 50 rpm over.

This ECU does have "idle spark control" but I don't have it enabled. Right now the IAC alone controls the idle. I suspect that my idle is a little less stable than yours. :)


All said it is still better than tearing carbs apart for jet changes.

A carb and a distributor with weights and springs in it are always a compromise. There's only so much that you can do with them. Once you understand what's going on, EFI is pretty simple.


One other mistake I make was too much accel enrichment to start with. I fouled a couple sets of plugs quickly before I got things close. The computer can add way more fuel than an accel pump. So pull plugs often in the beginning to see where things are at.

At one point something happened to my program and it was pouring fuel into the engine. I was smoking black smoke out of the exhaust and I thought I blew an injector. Again, the program somehow got corrupted. I should probably pull the plugs and see if they're clean. I'll be glad when I have a PC I can trust to work right.....if that's the problem.

Do you have wideband O2? I do and it really helps to see what's going on. My startup idle mixture is running pretty rich so I may have to adjust that. Once it goes closed-loop it seems pretty good. Obviously I haven't been able to do much tuning with the chassis sitting on jackstands. :)

Rick_L
04-17-2018, 04:19 PM
I think you did the right thing for now sending the headers off. The real risk for your headers is too little timing at engine speeds around 1500-2000 rpm. This is where you cruise, and this is also where you run the engine to break in a flat tappet cam, which is no concern to you. No EFI engine should be that far off if you start with a decent timing map.

When you get the headers back and a better PC that you can count on (hopefully it's just the PC), then you can tune the idle for both fuel and timing in open loop mode. Just guessing, you should have a setting in the map for closed loop vs. temperature, maybe even closed loop vs. rpm. Just set one or both high temporarily for your idle tuning, then you can set them back to what they were once you're finished with the tuning.

You don't want your O2 corrections to be large, try to get them below 4-5% by tuning the map in open loop. The newer stuff does this automatically (updates the map) but your C950 won't. More work but you'll also have more knowledge about what your engine needs as you go through this.

Fladiver64
04-18-2018, 12:00 PM
Yes I have a wideband installed and it is a great tool, not sure if I would get things tuned very well without one. I kept my system in open loop mode when I started so that I could get the fuel maps close, then allowed close loop with a limit on how much it could adjust.

I have been using a refurbished Panasonic toughbook for about 3 years now, and has proven to be quite reliable if not the most powerful. Has a serial port native so no adapter, a sunlight viewable screen, which is great in the car and decent battery life. They are available with win XP as well. http://toughruggedlaptops.com/refurbished-toughbook-tough-rugged-laptops/refurbished-fully-rugged-toughbook-rugged-laptops/refurbished-fully-rugged-toughbook-rugged-laptops.html

chevynut
04-18-2018, 01:01 PM
My ECU has a setting for closed loop at temperature, and I have it set for 120 degrees. I don't think it has one for RPM.

I have an HP/Compaq EVO N610C that ran Windows XP Professional. I used it for work at HP until it was replaced with a new one and I kept it. I started out with loading the C950 software on it and it ran fine. Then I found out the battery was dead and wouldn't charge so I ordered a new one (around $30). When I got it I found out I had the wrong charger and it wouldn't charge the battery so I ordered a new one (around $10). Everything was fine....then the disc crashed. I just ordered a new Hitachi 40GB disc drive for $7 and an XP Professional re-install disc for $7. I have the Windows code so supposedly that's all I need. Hopefully that gets me where I need to be. It's in great shape otherwise. And it has a serial port.

The headers are on their way to Jet-Hot.

chevynut
05-03-2018, 08:55 AM
The good news is I got the headers back from Jet-Hot and they look great. My only complaint is that it cost me $26 to ship them and they charged me $45 to ship them back. Surely they get better shipping rates than I do. :geek: I ordered some new copper header gaskets that should be here soon and I can get them re-installed.

8738

The bad news is that I received the new hard drive for my PC and the "bootable" CD with Windows XP Professional, installed the drive, and it won't boot. I had an IT friend of mine here yesterday and we spent 6 hours trying to get it to boot. The hard drive tests out fine via the BIOS so we think it's the OS. We even tried to image the hard drive directly from another PC and it looked like it was loading, but then it failed on a re-boot.

Another issue I've run into with the PC is that something is either wrong with my NEW battery or my NEW charger. When I first installed the battery and plugged the charger in, the BIOS said it was charging and it got to 24% and stopped. It's a "smart" battery and the indicator lights on it showed it was partially charged. But now the battery is discharged and won't charge anymore. But it gets weirder......the battery is 14.4 volts and I have a 12V charger and the CORRECT 18.5V charger. When I plug the 18.5V charger into the PC nothing happens and it won't start. If I plug the 12V charger in, it starts up every time. I can even start it up with the 12V charger, unplug it and plug in the 18.5V charger, and it will stay running. But if I turn it off, it won't re-start unless I plug the 12V charger back in. I have no idea what's going on there but I'm getting tired of spending time and money on this PC. It worked fine last fall. :(

I have to get an XP computer working or I'll have to get a new ECU. Still not sure where to go with this.

TrifiveRichard
05-03-2018, 04:59 PM
Headers look great Laszlo!

WagonCrazy
05-04-2018, 07:38 AM
A second compliment on the look of the jethotcoated headers. (insert thumbs up icon here...which doesn't exist amongst all the smiley faces to choose from...)


I have to get an XP computer working or I'll have to get a new ECU. Still not sure where to go with this.
So we have a bigger issue here, and I feel for ya man. Back when you started the build and made decisions on the motor..that setup was a great way to go. But the passage of time has rendered it old school and so moving on means a total redo of the ECU which means more money.
Look at the decision like this: If you did get the ECU sorted out with a Windows XP based laptop, how much longer can you keep that setup all working? (hint, it gets harder and harder)
If you junk it, and go with a more modern ECU, how much longer can you keep THAT setup working (hint, better odds than staying with the XP laptop)
Does upgrading now, prevent further frustrations down the road? What about for the next owner or anyone else you might enlist to tune it?
Considering what you just spent on paint materials, maybe it's time to upgrade and get it over with now?
Like me, I'm sure you stopped counting the dollars you have into this build, because it doesn't make financial sense anymore (investment vs. resale value).
But that's not why we build these hot rods. Its the pursuit of the finished product that keeps us moving forward.

junk your XP laptop strategy and move to newer technology. I think in the end, you'll be happier overall...

That's my 2 cents for a Friday morning.

chevynut
05-04-2018, 08:13 AM
junk your XP laptop strategy and move to newer technology. I think in the end, you'll be happier overall...

Paul, I'm not too worried about having an XP laptop work for many more years. There's still a lot of people using XPl, since some think it's Microsoft's best OS they ever built. I don't care about support for it because it only has to run one program. :)

And the ECU is quite capable, even considering that it's "old tech". I really don't gain much with a new ECU as far as programmability, from what I can tell, but the new ones do have some self-learning capabilities. There's still lots of guys using the C950 and I see them for sale now and then, even new ones. Year One is still selling new EFI kits based on the C950.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Throttle-Body-Fuel-Injection-Commander-950-System-Speed-Density-700-cfm-Kit/262615315175?epid=4017008348&hash=item3d2517b2e7:g:WggAAOSwxixZ55nG&vxp=mtr

The real hesitation is that I want to avoid re-doing stuff because I've been working on this car for well over a decade, as you know. :( :geek:

That said, I have been considering doing just that and ditching the C950 if I can't get a "solid" XP system working. I found out that my WBO2 controller will still work with Holley's new system, but I don't know what others it's compatible with. I don't want to screw with it right now and I have until I finish up my console and wiring to decide. If I decide to change, I might have to change some sheetmetal in the console too. I found the drawing for the HP EFI ECU so I need to decide if that's what I want to do when the time comes, of if I find a great deal on the ECU and main harness alone.

Fladiver64
05-04-2018, 08:36 AM
Ill put a plug in for mega squirt, I am using the megasquirt 2 V357 on my lt1. I used this because it would work witht he optispark ignition and I didnt want to change it. I think you could use this https://www.diyautotune.com/product/microsquirt-engine-management-system-w-8-39-wiring-harness/

Cost less than a new laptop and tuner studio is an easy software platform to learn. I have mine running on a tablet and a laptop without problems.

There are even wireless options using Bluetooth. I find this works the best actually. http://tunerstudio.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=70&Itemid=68

chevynut
05-04-2018, 08:47 AM
I think you could use this https://www.diyautotune.com/product/microsquirt-engine-management-system-w-8-39-wiring-harness/

"While the MicroSquirt can run fuel and ignition on LS series motors, this takes it about to the limits of its available I/O, and some features, such as the stepper-type IAC valve, are not supported. Depending on your needs, an MS2 with custom mods or MS3 may be a better choice. "

I'm inclined to stick with the Holley HP EFI because they claim it's an upgrade to the C950 system so most of my stuff can be re-used. I can get the ECU and a universal unterminated main harness for about $1500.

https://www.holley.com/products/fuel_systems/fuel_injection/hp_efi/hp_ecu/parts/554-113

56Safari
05-05-2018, 08:45 AM
I have to get an XP computer working or I'll have to get a new ECU. Still not sure where to go with this.


Have you tried using oracle virtual box to run windows XP Laszlo? It allows you to run windows (and multiple other operating systems) in a virtual environment on another computer. The virtual box software is entirely free, you just need a license for windows XP. I use it to run all of my VAG-COM software on windows XP for my audi, and I do it all from my Mac. Another upside is that it doesn't take an hour to install windows XP if you use an ISO file (like it does from a CD). If you want to try it and need any help with it let me know, I think it would solve your problems.

Here's a link https://www.virtualbox.org/

56Safari
05-05-2018, 09:53 AM
Here's a shot of it working. All you would need is a RS232 to USB adapter to make it work.

8754

chevynut
05-06-2018, 04:53 PM
Got the headers re-installed today. I went with SCE Pro Copper 2" round port embossed gaskets that are solid copper. They're supposed to seal well on irregular flanges and are re-usable. I also did a permanent installation of the wiring from the alternator to the back of the engine. I have a MIDI fuseholder with a 175A fuse bolted to the block.

8762

8763

Fladiver64
05-06-2018, 07:21 PM
Looking great, I didn't know you had a servo IAC valve, which was one of the reasons I went with the megasquirt 2 with some options, which I think was still only about $500. I can see spending the extra money if the wiring harness is compatible with the new Holley. I just could not see paying the extra money because i was not going to use many of the race features the Holley offers, and I had to build a wire harness either way.

chevynut
05-06-2018, 07:25 PM
Fladiver, I would go with something else if I knew what to get. I know the Holley HP EFI is overkill for me. I don't need 4 inputs and 4 outputs. I don't need boost control. I don't need NOS control. But I am confident that the HP EFI will be a drop-in replacement for the C950.

I wish I knew more about using that XP emulator and I'd give it a try. I have two working laptop PCs, one with W7 and one with W10. I'm just not sure what a stripped-down system buys me that I don't have with the C950. The XP emulator might solve the PC problem.

56Safari
05-06-2018, 09:07 PM
Do they have a downloadable version of the software that I could try to install? If I can get the holley software installed on my virtual XP OS without any issues, we should be able to set you up with a working machine... There's a couple other simple variables like usb drivers and mapping the virtual OS to the physical USB ports on the host machine, but it's all stuff thats easily configurable...

Because virtual drives are isolated, the host operating system pretty much irrelevant... In theory I could build you a virtual drive with windows XP and working holley software on my MAC that you could open up and run with your W7 or W10 machines (all you would have to do is install virtual box and download the virtual OS that I built).

chevynut
05-07-2018, 07:14 AM
The C950 software is available on the Holley website:

https://www.holley.com/support/resources/#Fuel_Injection

It's about halfway down the page, "Commander 950 Software (http://documents.holley.com/techlibrary_pro_950c_v3_07.exe)"

56Safari
05-07-2018, 09:52 AM
Cool, I’ll try downloading/installing it later this evening and let you know.

chevynut
05-07-2018, 10:34 AM
I took the CD I got with WXP Professional and tried to load it onto my W7 PC. It asked me to create a partition on the disc which I did. Then it proceeded to load for quite a while until it came up with an error that said "Line 0 of hivecls.inf is corrupted. Setup cannot continue. To quit setup press f3". So that's a dead end too. I asked the guy to send me another CD that's VERIFIED or refund my money. It was cheap on eBay but maybe a new one will work.

56Safari
05-07-2018, 10:03 PM
I got the Holley software up and running on the windows XP virtual drive tonight... (I'm on a show right now until Saturday, so my time is limited for playing with fun stuff). I will try to upload my copy of XP with the C950 software installed on Google Drive by tomorrow night... Maybe you can download it and we can try to get it running on your W7 laptop with virtuabox. Then we can look at the USB to RS232 converter (needs to be spec'd to the speed of USB port on the HOST laptop, USB 2.0 is ideal, they're about $8-12 on Amazon). After that it's just mapping the USB ports on the host machine to the virtual machine

chevynut
05-07-2018, 10:26 PM
56Safari, I re-tried the XP installation on my old HP Pavilion computer and it worked this time. No errors and it loaded and booted. However, it didn't ask me for a Microsoft XP Professional product code which I thought was weird. Does that mean it's going to quit on me in the future? The Compaq N610C computer I couldn't get to work and had the battery/charger problems with was originally XP Professional, so that's why I ordered it. The one I loaded it on to dual boot is the one I was using before I got a new HP W10 Pavilion last December. Since I'm far from an IT guy I'm pretty happy and amazed that I got this all set up by myself. :)

So it looks like I now have a working XP system, but it doesn't have a serial port. I'll try it out with the USB to serial adapter to see how it works on my ECU. I just need to figure out how the dual-boot works now ;).

I still may be interested in putting the Virtualbox on my W10 computer.

I'm pretty sure this is the USB to RS232 adapter I got from Best Buy: https://www.bestbuy.com/site/insignia-1-3-usb-to-rs-232-db9-pda-serial-adapter-cable-black/5883029.p?skuId=5883029

Thanks for all the help.

Fladiver64
05-08-2018, 12:14 PM
If you are still have issues with the USB to serial cable, try this one https://www.efianalytics.com/register/viewProduct.jsp?productCode=FTDI_USB. It worked for me when two others did not. The biggest issue is this is shielded and most of the "standard" ones are not. I use serial converters on several different projects and so far they have each found a different chip set that is the most stable so a little trial and error may be in order.

chevynut
05-08-2018, 07:05 PM
Well today I got the driver for the USB to RS232 adapter loaded after about 2 hours of work.:mad: I took the PC out to the shop and connected it to my engine. After setting the comm port correctly I fired the engine and it looks like everything works like it's supposed to. I haven't gotten any "runtime errors" and I can read the ECU data with no problems.

The only thing is that I can't figure out how to get back to my W7 OS. I turn the PC off and it just boots to WXP as if it was the only OS on the machine. But I did create a separate 20GB partition for WXP when it loaded and the other partition with W7 should not have been disturbed. I would like to boot W7 on it if I can...any ideas?

Even if it doesn't boot W7 anymore at least I have a good PC for engine tuning. If it craps out I can try running the XP emulator Virtualbox if I need to. I still believe this ECU will do everything I'll ever want it to do.

Rick_L
05-08-2018, 07:47 PM
I still believe this ECU will do everything I'll ever want it to do.

I think you're right with one exception. No expert here, but from talking to users, the Holley HP has had a positive evolution of the PID algorithms that affect throttle response, especially with any kind of non-stock camshaft timing. You'll know if you need help there.

56Safari
05-09-2018, 11:00 AM
Well today I got the driver for the USB to RS232 adapter loaded after about 2 hours of work.:mad: I took the PC out to the shop and connected it to my engine. After setting the comm port correctly I fired the engine and it looks like everything works like it's supposed to. I haven't gotten any "runtime errors" and I can read the ECU data with no problems.

Awesome, glad to hear you got everything up and going... I've been putting out fires and working into the wee hours of the morning so I wasn't able to respond... 32 hours in two days, my brain is kind of mushy right now..


The only thing is that I can't figure out how to get back to my W7 OS. I turn the PC off and it just boots to WXP as if it was the only OS on the machine. But I did create a separate 20GB partition for WXP when it loaded and the other partition with W7 should not have been disturbed. I would like to boot W7 on it if I can...any ideas?

When you boot up your computer, during the initial black or blue screen with white text there should be a press F# for bios (# being the number it tells you to push, F1-F10) If you press and hold whichever function key to get into the bios you should be able to change which OS that it boots to within the bios. I can't exactly tell you what to set it to, but it should be pretty obvious and be in a boot section.

Also, I would be very careful about using the internet on the XP machine, it doesn't take a whole lot to get a virus on an XP machine these days.. That's part of the reason I like using the virtualbox software, I can quarantine the XP OS and browse the internet on the same computer via the host OS.

And regarding the XP not requiring a serial number, was it a factory re-install disk from a laptop manufacturer?(I've seen these install without requiring password) Or was it a Microsoft XP Pro disc (has hologram looking stuff on it)... I've also had them install without the serial, but require activation after an initial 30 day trial period

chevynut
05-17-2018, 12:03 PM
And regarding the XP not requiring a serial number, was it a factory re-install disk from a laptop manufacturer?(I've seen these install without requiring password) Or was it a Microsoft XP Pro disc (has hologram looking stuff on it)... I've also had them install without the serial, but require activation after an initial 30 day trial period

It was a disc I bought on eBay that says it requires a product code. However, it did load. I bought it for the Compaq EVO PC that has the product code on it, but it won't load onto that one. Now I wonder if this damned thing is going to lock me out in a couple of weeks. :(

Five Seven
05-18-2018, 01:12 PM
8802

For what its worth here is a picture of my timing map. Granted I have a stock zz502 cam. While I am still working to optimize it, I can say the car runs strong throughout and will run at 1500RPM in overdrive perfectly.

chevynut
05-18-2018, 01:48 PM
Thanks Five Seven. What ECU are you using? Your RPM steps make a lot more sense to me than the ones Holley has for the 502 programs. I don't see why they start at 400 RPM and they go all the way to 6500. I'll probably re-do mine to be like yours....I won't go under 600 nor over 6000. My cam isn't a lot different than the stock cam as far as duration, but I get .610" lift on the intakes and .585" lift exhaust via 1.75 and 1.8 ratio Scorpion roller rockers.

Five Seven
05-19-2018, 02:20 PM
No problem. I have the HP ECU.

chevynut
06-09-2018, 09:39 AM
The last time I re-booted it I tried to start the engine and the starter wouldn't engage. It spins but won't engage the flywheel. :cry: So I said screw it and pulled the headers and put them in a box to ship to Jet Hot. Now I have to pull the starter and see WTH is wrong with it. It worked flawlessly up til today.


After I posted the above, I removed the starter and used some jumpers to try to get it to work. I removed the solenoid to see if it was working and I couldn't get the plunger to move. I put the solenoid back on and everything worked fine....I figured maybe there was a grounding issue or something.

The starter has worked fine since then every time I started the engine. The other day I wanted to do a compression check for the hell of it and I put a remote starter button on the starter wires. The engine cranked a few times, then the starter failed again, but in a different mode. I thought it was the same failure until I read my post above. It would engage the gear, but the motor won't turn. I removed the starter again and hooked up jumper cables to it. It worked fine off the engine first try.

So I ordered a new solenoid. I'm going to re-install the starter and if it happens again I'm going to check the voltage at the motor terminal first while the gear is engaged. But both symptoms could be due to a bad solenoid.

The good news is that it seems like my XP PC is working good.....so far.....but I haven't messed with the engine very much.

chevynut
06-10-2018, 02:33 PM
Well I think I found the starter problem. :p

I re-installed the starter and figured it would work for a while, like it did earlier, before I could further troubleshoot the problem. However, it failed first try. I thought that was strange since it worked first try off the engine. :confused:

So I hooked up my DVM and measured the voltage at the motor terminal of the solenoid while turning the key. The gear engaged, but it only measured around 150mV. Next I measured the solenoid battery connection and it was 12V. However, when turning the key and it measured the same 150MV. AHA! Bad connection at the positive battery terminal. I had been taking the negative terminal off of the battery when I removed the starter, and didn't bother to check to see if the positive connection was still tight. It wasn't. Duh. :geek:

At least now I have some practice removing and re-installing the starter, AND a spare solenoid. :D

WagonCrazy
06-15-2018, 12:22 PM
Aint it great when it turns out to be the simplest thing? Of all the stuff I learn about troubleshooting, it's the simple things to start with. I keep telling myself "stop overanalyzing this". More than not, it turns out to be a simple oversight that causes me issues. Glad to hear yours worked out to be simple.