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55 Tony
06-12-2018, 06:07 AM
My motor has always seemed like it looses 20 to maybe 25% power when not only when it's hot, but as the motor gets hot when the outside temp is hot. As I was writing I remembered one of the only things it's had from almost the start it the MSD distributor, so I suppose I can check the timing when it's really hot. When I was at the track last it was hot outside. I drove it just over 1 mile and when almost all the way there, I nailed it and thought, yep she's running good. On the track I made 3 test and tune runs in a row. Each time I lost more and more power. I let it cool with the hood up for about and hour and It was better for 1 run but that's it, the second run it was a dog (in my eyes anyway).
I do have a cold air intake. Besides the distributor, I'm at a loss. Almost everything else has been changed at one point or another. I know all cars loose power when hot, but this is way more than what I would consider normal. Even my girlfriend can feel it and comments before I even say anything (on the road).
Any suggestions?

NickP
06-12-2018, 06:32 AM
So, what was the weather stations report? I don't mean on the TV BTW. Elevation? Location?? Pics of the "cold air intake system"? The variables are mountainous. Eliminating engine internal issues, the rest mentioned can have a profound negative impact if not addressed. What's the engine cooling system consist of, fans, shroud etc.?

markm
06-12-2018, 06:34 AM
Just how many tenths are we talking, not unusual to have to adjust the dial on a bracket car when you found robin. This is also why most 10.90 Super Stock cars can go 10.20 un stopped. I have always said if the temp outside is comfortable to you, your car will like it too.

chevynut
06-12-2018, 06:39 AM
How do you know it's losing power? Does your ET go up? How are you estimating a 20-25% loss?

An internal combustion engine is more efficient when running hot. We can't run them extremely hot due to the materials and fluids used and their limitations. Fuel atomizes better in a hot engine. So the engine internal temperature isn't affecting your power unless it's causing detonation. Modern cars tend to run hotter so they are more efficient than older cars.

Colder air has more oxygen molecules per unit volume, so you can add more fuel and get more power. On a cold day, your engine is ingesting cooler air so it will produce more power, assuming you're getting the cold air to the intake. It's normal to lose power on a hot day but probably nowhere near 20-25%. It's related to air density.

I'm wondering if you're still suffering from symptoms of boiling fuel. Do you still have the bypass hooked up? If so, it could be returning hot fuel to the fuel tank, raising the fuel temperature so it's easier to boil in the lines and carb. Have you monitored your fuel pressure when you experience this power loss? Where is your ignition coil mounted? Is it getting hot? As the temperature of the coil windings increases, the electrical resistance increases. Also the insulation on the wires could be breaking down or leaking current. However, I think a fuel delivery issue is more likely.

chevynut
06-12-2018, 07:27 AM
What ignition system are you running? Are you using a knock sensor?

Rick_L
06-12-2018, 08:17 AM
Need a lot more information. Is the engine missing or stumbling? What's the coolant temperature when it runs best and what is it when worst? Are you making any attempt to cool the engine between passes?

Seems to me that the weather isn't what's causing this, if it was the weather the first pass would be off too, unless there was a wild temperature swing, or a weather front moved through.

55 Tony
06-12-2018, 01:35 PM
The loss in performance is so great that I can feel it on or off the track. I'm not talking times because as I've said many times already, the track is just a track being run by some guys with no money, there is no electronics, no tree, nothing but a track and lights that run off a generator. This has been going on for 7 years, long before I've ever driven on a drag strip. It's easy to feel it on the road. If you felt the difference from a cold day to a hot day you just may understand better. The coolant temp is probably down to 180 in the winter and it runs 190 in the summer, I don't go out much when it's over 90F since I have no a/c. There is no missing or stumbling. It's not at all like what it used to do when the fuel boiled. It's just feels like a dog when hot and has an extra 100 HP when it's cold. It really is a huge difference. Like I said in the original post, yes it runs a little better if I let it sit for an hour with the hood up, but that doesn't last long.

markm
06-12-2018, 01:51 PM
I can tell you my best ets have been on passes were I pulled on track at 150/160 degrees and launched at no more than 170. Usually my best ETs have came in the late fall. Plus the loss of 2 tenths is enough to make a car feel like a turd.

chevynut
06-12-2018, 02:59 PM
As I said before, an IC engine is most efficient when it's hot. Your problem has nothing to do with coolant temperature imo. The amount of work done is greatest when there's a large difference between the engine temperature and ambient. I personally doubt you're seeing a 100HP difference.

That said, you WILL lose power if the air is hot and humid. Hot air is less dense, and humid air is even less dense. Density is also affected by barometric pressure. But all of those things are relatively minor.

If you assume a baseline of 70F and 50% RH, then raise the temperature to 90F and 50% RH the air density drops to about 96.1%. At 70F and 80%RH it's about 99.6%. At 90F and 80% it's about 95.5%. So you can see temperature is a bigger factor.

You should see no more than about a 4-5% drop in HP due to temperature and humidity. At 400 HP that's 20HP.

If you think you're losing more than that, you have something else going on. I didn't see an answer as to whether you're using a knock sensor or not. At higher temperatures your engine will detonate easier. If there any evidence of that? Can you hear any pinging or is the car too loud? I wonder if you have too much timing advance. If it's not timing, it is probably fuel delivery. Or it's only a normal 20HP drop ;)

Here's an article that may be of interest....

http://www.onallcylinders.com/2013/05/17/racing-with-mother-nature-how-to-tune-for-weather-conditions/

55 Tony
06-12-2018, 03:19 PM
It's more like when hot, it runs like it did when I had a c/r of about 7:1 (1978 smog motor) and a smaller cam, instead of now close to 10.5:1 with a larger roller cam (not counting when it's not too hot) Maybe even more of a difference.
I don't know about the hotter the engine the better, that's great for efficiency, but not for HP.
No knock sensor. No knock or ping. Nothing to hook a knock sensor up to!

chevynut
06-12-2018, 03:38 PM
It's more like when hot, it runs like it did when I had a c/r of about 7:1 (1978 smog motor) and a smaller cam, instead of now close to 10.5:1 with a larger roller cam (not counting when it's not too hot) Maybe even more of a difference.

Without some data on performance, it's pure speculation as to how much power you're losing. The hotter and less dense the air is, the less power you'll get.


I don't know about the hotter the engine the better, that's great for efficiency, but not for HP.

So for a given amount of fuel, and a given engine, you don't think higher efficiency gives you more power? Really?:geek: Increased compression ratio increases efficiency with the same amount of air and fuel. Does it increase power?

"In general terms, the larger the difference in temperature between the hot source and the cold sink, the larger is the potential thermal efficiency (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_efficiency) of the cycle. On Earth, the cold side of any heat engine is limited to being close to the ambient temperature of the environment, or not much lower than 300 kelvins (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelvin), so most efforts to improve the thermodynamic efficiencies of various heat engines focus on increasing the temperature of the source, within material limits. The maximum theoretical efficiency of a heat engine (which no engine ever attains) is equal to the temperature difference between the hot and cold ends divided by the temperature at the hot end, all expressed as absolute temperatures (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absolute_temperature) (in kelvins (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelvin))."

Rick_L
06-12-2018, 04:00 PM
Of course there are many practical reasons not to run the engine as hot as possible. First thing, engines aren't built to do this, they are built to run correctly at the temperatures we normally see.

The guys that run Pro Stock and similar naturally aspirated classes at the drag strip typically use a chiller to circulate 40°F. water through the cooling system between runs. The engine typically finishes a run at 160° or so. Running the engine this cool lets them run a bit harder (maybe use a little more timing etc.) without detonation.

But the biggest thing is just the weather. Power level varies proportionally with intake air density - barometric pressure, temperature, and humidity. Usually the air density for a given location varies about 10% or so from winter to summer.


The difference between a very low compression BBC and a high compression BBC is far more than 10% - meaning there is something else going on.

markm
06-12-2018, 04:34 PM
I remember seeing a guy pull a quick connect on his 6.90 1/8 mile Q-jet 350 dumping 220 degree water on the ground and pouring cool water in between passes. A lot of effort but that's what it took to run the numbers he did. Forecast here for weekend are for temps around the century mark with humidity, was planning on a race weekend myself but I think I pass.

chasracer
06-13-2018, 01:42 PM
Well, looking at your pic I see a few things. One is that we are stuffing a BBC in where a mouse used to live. The engine compartment on these cars while looking like a huge tin can is actually pretty bad about air flow over and around the engine. A BBC on average is simply going to make more hp per cubic inch as the heads are certainly more efficient than those of a mouse motor. And in turn you are going to develop more heat. Open that hood just as soon as you get back to the pit area. And if you can make some concessions to getting air through the engine compartment it wouldn't hurt. Next is the trans cooler attached to the front of the radiator. Nothing in particular is wrong with putting it there except if performance is the game then the additional heat from the trans transmitting to the coolant is not helpful. If you can move it somewhere else that would be good. I know your ride is a street/strip vehicle but I can tell you right now that most of us that race do not want to see water temps above 150-155 at the starting line. And while it's not too common anymore as most of us now run alcohol, dumping coolant between runs and refilling was a normal routine. I couldn't see what kind of cooling fan you had but if you have an electric one that can be controlled with an on/off switch that would be good and in between runs, use a garden sprayer to spray water on the radiator to remove temperature. Back when I ran my Chevelle on race gas, making sure the garden sprayer was full and spraying the radiator was one of the race jobs my kids used to be tasked with during an event. Just remember that each run stacks temperature and once the engine is up there on temp (not just coolant temp) it gets harder to dissipate that heat. Try to stay on top of it and see if that doesn't help the performance some.

55 Tony
06-13-2018, 01:57 PM
I don't know if or how much it helped, but I've heard from more than one person how they used to put bags of ice on the intake manifold for as long as possible before the race or next race. And I don't know if they help any, but they still sell fuel chillers at Summit. A container with a coil that the fuel goes through and filled with ice/ice water. These days I think it's more of a retro thing.

Another note on efficiency, 14.7:1 a/f ratio is the goal for efficiency without detonation, but down between 10:1 and 11:1 for the most power.

Bottom line: Efficiency does not = power

chevynut
06-13-2018, 02:24 PM
Well, looking at your pic I see a few things. One is that we are stuffing a BBC in where a mouse used to live. The engine compartment on these cars while looking like a huge tin can is actually pretty bad about air flow over and around the engine. A BBC on average is simply going to make more hp per cubic inch as the heads are certainly more efficient than those of a mouse motor. And in turn you are going to develop more heat. Open that hood just as soon as you get back to the pit area. And if you can make some concessions to getting air through the engine compartment it wouldn't hurt.

A hot engine compartment has nothing to do with it. He has a cold air intake. The engine temp is staying at a reasonable level and there's no reason a high under-hood temp is going to cause any problems unless it heats up the air in the cold air intake. The engine sees coolant temperature, not engine compartment temperature.


Next is the trans cooler attached to the front of the radiator. Nothing in particular is wrong with putting it there except if performance is the game then the additional heat from the trans transmitting to the coolant is not helpful.

Again, it does no harm unless the engine is overheating, which it isn't.



I know your ride is a street/strip vehicle but I can tell you right now that most of us that race do not want to see water temps above 150-155 at the starting line.

So why is that? It's because you're generating so much power and 75% of it is lost to the coolant and exhaust. That can cause the coolant to get too hot at the end of the run if the cooling system can't handle it. If the engine could stay at 180-190 all the way, you don't need to worry about engine temp. A hotter engine is more efficient.


And while it's not too common anymore as most of us now run alcohol, dumping coolant between runs and refilling was a normal routine.

The engine is creating just as much heat with alcohol as it did with gasoline. So why isn't it common to dump the coolant now? Because it wasn't necessary back in the day either.

Underhood temperatures have little or nothing to do with engine performance as long as the engine is getting cool air and the coolant temp remains where it should be.

chevynut
06-13-2018, 02:30 PM
I don't know if or how much it helped, but I've heard from more than one person how they used to put bags of ice on the intake manifold for as long as possible before the race or next race. And I don't know if they help any, but they still sell fuel chillers at Summit. A container with a coil that the fuel goes through and filled with ice/ice water. These days I think it's more of a retro thing.

Think about it...what does a gasoline cooler do? It makes the gas more dense if it makes it to the engine without heating up. All that does is make the charge richer, which you can do with a larger jet size or longer EFI pulse. That cold-can stuff was and still is bogus.


Another note on efficiency, 14.7:1 a/f ratio is the goal for efficiency without detonation, but down between 10:1 and 11:1 for the most power.

Bottom line: Efficiency does not = power

For a given engine making X amount of power, as you increase efficiency it makes more power. Simple mathematical fact. Higher compression makes an engine more efficient, therefore it increases power. A turbocharger utilizes otherwise wasted exhaust heat to force more air into the engine, thereby increasing it's efficiency and making more power. Don't know why that's so hard to understand. You're confusing fuel consumption with efficiency. Efficiency is how well the engine uses the fuel that's delivered to it. Higher efficiency for a given amount of fuel means more power.

55 Tony
06-13-2018, 02:34 PM
Well will someone tell me if my cold air intake is nice, looks dumb but works, or other opinions. It started out as I think a Cadillac housing with a tiny little snout. I made it much much larger. I could use a repainting, it's been through a lot. The titainium alloy flex part is actually very hard to bend, oh and it's 4" diameter. And check out that wing nut on top, surely someone knows what that was at one time.

55 Tony
06-13-2018, 02:39 PM
Think about it...what does a gasoline cooler do? It makes the gas more dense if it makes it to the engine without heating up. All that does is make the charge richer, which you can do with a larger jet size or longer EFI pulse. That cold-can stuff was and still is bogus.

Another note on efficiency, 14.7:1 a/f ratio is the goal for efficiency without detonation, but down between 10:1 and 11:1 for the most power.

Bottom line: Efficiency does not = power[/QUOTE]

For a given engine making X amount of power, as you increase efficiency it makes more power. Simple mathematical fact. Higher compression makes an engine more efficient, therefore it increases power. A turbocharger utilizes otherwise wasted exhaust heat to force more air into the engine, thereby increasing it's efficiency and making more power. Don't know why that's so hard to understand. You're confusing fuel consumption with efficiency. Efficiency is how well the engine uses the fuel that's delivered to it. Higher efficiency for a given amount of fuel means more power.[/QUOTE]

You evidently do not understand what I wrote about air/fuel ratio. Also, a turbo does not use exhaust heat to force more air, it uses the flow of the exhaust top power itself. Don't some have intercoolers? That's because heat is bad. If the turbo runs cooler it works better.

chevynut
06-13-2018, 03:00 PM
Well will someone tell me if my cold air intake is nice, looks dumb but works, or other opinions..... The titainium alloy flex part is actually very hard to bend, oh and it's 4" diameter.


Personally I think it looks fine, but I would have used regular tubing instead of that corrugated stuff for the actual hose. Are you sure that's titanium? Why would it need to be?

Rick_L
06-13-2018, 03:13 PM
A big part of keeping the coolant temperature low is to be able to run more ignition timing and make more power. Or at least consistent power from run to run.

Years ago, I ran a dragster that didn't have a radiator or water pump at all, as most did and still do. The normal procedure in any weather was to dump the coolant between runs. Sometimes twice. And no way could you "hot lap" that kind of car especially in the summer.

Also, spraying the radiator with water between runs is useless unless you are circulating coolant. That's why most doorslammer race only cars have an electric water pump that can be run when the engine isn't running and generating heat. Unless you go to a lot of trouble these pumps don't push the kind of flow that a stock style belt drive pump will. And often, it's shut off during a run, as it won't make any difference in the few seconds that it takes to make a pass.

chevynut
06-13-2018, 03:16 PM
You evidently do not understand what I wrote about air/fuel ratio. Also, a turbo does not use exhaust heat to force more air, it uses the flow of the exhaust top power itself. Don't some have intercoolers? That's because heat is bad. If the turbo runs cooler it works better.

You evidently don't understand thermodynamics. A turbocharger utilizes waste energy in the exhaust and turns it into work, to pump air into the intake and increase efficiency and power. If it wasn't there, the exhaust would go out the tailpipe anyhow.

And you're confusing engine temperature with inlet air temperature. An engine "sees" the coolant temperature and ambient temperature has little effect on it. Colder air is more dense, therefore you get more oxygen into the engine and you can add more fuel, or the fuel that's there will produce more power due to more complete combustion. Every gasoline molecule that combines with an oxygen molecule increases the combustion energy and therefore the power. The point is, the engine ambient temperature has little effect on performance with a constant inlet air temperature.

chevynut
06-13-2018, 03:23 PM
A big part of keeping the coolant temperature low is to be able to run more ignition timing and make more power. Or at least consistent power from run to run.

Yes, that makes sense if more timing advance is needed or beneficial. But how much more timing can you add at 160 versus 180?

I don't believe Tony's problem, if he even has a problem, is due to engine temperature or under-hood temperature.

55 Tony
06-13-2018, 04:01 PM
Personally I think it looks fine, but I would have used regular tubing instead of that corrugated stuff for the actual hose. Are you sure that's titanium? Why would it need to be?

It's a titanium alloy. I don't know how much titanium is in it. I'm guessing it's mostly stainless steel, and the good kind since a magnet is not attracted to it. It is made for small chimney flue's, so the alloy needs to be able to take a lot of heat. I couldn't find any other tubing that looked better. Most of it is plastic garbage with 90° angles or the really ugly plastic flex stuff they make for the purpose. K&N makes some ugly stuff. Although under that lid I do have a K&N filter. I do have a piece of big diesel truck exhaust flex pipe that is the same diameter, but it's galvanized and really ugly. I don't know what kind of "regular tubing" you mean?

Rick_L
06-13-2018, 04:02 PM
But how much more timing can you add at 160 versus 180?

Probably only a degree or two. Maybe a better way to put it is how much do you have to pull out if the engine is hot?

I agree that something else is amiss other than the weather, coolant temperature, or underhood temperature. We really don't have enough info to help him since there's nothing to diagnose except that he says it feels like it has the power level of a low compression engine. And it's not audibly missing or stumbling.

chevynut
06-14-2018, 08:02 AM
Regarding power with a stoichiometric mixture or a richer mixture..... Maximum energy will be created with a stoichiometric mixture. That means that every molecule of oxygen combines with every molecule of gasoline. If you add one more molecule of gasoline, it won't burn because it has nothing to combine with. So additional gasoline creates no more heat, and therefore no more power. Engines are tuned to be slightly rich at full power to ensure you have enough fuel to consume all of the oxygen. Unburned fuel is wasted out the exhaust. A too-lean mixture can run too hot and cause detonation and engine damage. A slightly rich mixture cools the combustion chamber so detonation isn't as likely. The cooling effect can also facilitate adding more timing advance as Rick pointed out, which may allow it to make more power.

markm
06-14-2018, 08:12 AM
I don't recall the fuel Tony runs, but to run good in heat you must run a good quality race fuel with a 10-1 BBC.

chevynut
06-14-2018, 08:52 AM
I don't know what kind of "regular tubing" you mean?

I mean mandrel bends, either aluminum or stainless.....

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2380057.m570.l1313.TR12.TRC2.A0.H0.X4%22+ aluminum+bends.TRS0&_nkw=4%22+aluminum+bends&_sacat=0

chevynut
06-14-2018, 09:07 AM
I don't recall the fuel Tony runs, but to run good in heat you must run a good quality race fuel with a 10-1 BBC.

If the engine isn't detonating, higher octane won't make any difference. You can actually run too high of octane and reduce performance since higher octane slows the burn rate so it doesn't detonate and produces more even burning. Race gas has the same energy content as any other gasoline (as long as there's no ethanol in it) and some very high octane gasolines actually have slightly less energy content than pump gas. It's resistance to detonation is big difference.

55 Tony
06-14-2018, 09:25 AM
Regarding power with a stoichiometric mixture or a richer mixture..... Maximum energy will be created with a stoichiometric mixture. That means that every molecule of oxygen combines with every molecule of gasoline. If you add one more molecule of gasoline, it won't burn because it has nothing to combine with. So additional gasoline creates no more heat, and therefore no more power. Engines are tuned to be slightly rich at full power to ensure you have enough fuel to consume all of the oxygen. Unburned fuel is wasted out the exhaust. A too-lean mixture can run too hot and cause detonation and engine damage. A slightly rich mixture cools the combustion chamber so detonation isn't as likely. The cooling effect can also facilitate adding more timing advance as Rick pointed out, which may allow it to make more power.

That is not correct. Also I was way off with my 10:1 to 11:1. Looks more like 12.8:1 for max power.

55 Tony
06-14-2018, 09:28 AM
I don't recall the fuel Tony runs, but to run good in heat you must run a good quality race fuel with a 10-1 BBC.

Is that to prevent detonation or some other reason? I don't have any detonation. I'm running pump gas 93 octane.

55 Tony
06-14-2018, 09:39 AM
https://www.bing.com/images/search?view=detailV2&ccid=s8CgXERE&id=66BB44B072E25A943BD8CFE666F107ADF178EEDE&thid=OIP.s8CgXEREFzQhSWRLLjOzAwHaIT&mediaurl=https%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwiki pedia%2Fcommons%2Fc%2Fc4%2FIdeal-stoichiometry.jpg&exph=545&expw=486&q=air+fuel+mixture&simid=608042173187228961&selectedindex=6&ajaxhist=0

55 Tony
06-14-2018, 09:41 AM
https://www.bing.com/images/search?view=detailV2&ccid=UOGwi2og&id=19C7A380242EAC7EA9FA07F6B38A46FFBCB4E154&thid=OIP.UOGwi2ogH7gKHoGC88R9KAHaFU&mediaurl=http%3A%2F%2Fusers.iafrica.com%2Fi%2Fih%2 Fihenk%2Fpowgraf2.gif&exph=395&expw=550&q=air+fuel+mixture&simid=608006310205784352&selectedindex=27&ajaxhist=0

https://www.bing.com/images/search?view=detailV2&ccid=fJlbMqAf&id=0CB926031E5E1DB1C3FFA1856ED3375622A73103&thid=OIP.fJlbMqAfL5B231yDikwIiAHaHa&mediaurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.demon-tweeks.co.uk%2Foncirrus%2F3%2Fimage%2Fproduct%2Fzo om%2F0123456789%2F0123456789%2Flum_air-fuel-r-meter.jpg&exph=2000&expw=2000&q=air+fuel+mixture&simid=608049191182730823&selectedindex=52&ajaxhist=0 (https://www.bing.com/images/search?view=detailV2&ccid=UOGwi2og&id=19C7A380242EAC7EA9FA07F6B38A46FFBCB4E154&thid=OIP.UOGwi2ogH7gKHoGC88R9KAHaFU&mediaurl=http%3A%2F%2Fusers.iafrica.com%2Fi%2Fih%2 Fihenk%2Fpowgraf2.gif&exph=395&expw=550&q=air+fuel+mixture&simid=608006310205784352&selectedindex=27&ajaxhist=0)

markm
06-14-2018, 10:58 AM
Is that to prevent detonation or some other reason? I don't have any detonation. I'm running pump gas 93 octane.

How do you know for sure and there is more to it than that. Not going to go into details because some on here love to jump on my shit if I don't get it perfect. There is a lot of consistence to be gained with good fuel.

55 Tony
06-14-2018, 01:06 PM
I'm pretty good at hearing a knock or ping, my exhaust is not loud enough to cover up the sound. But since I think a few mentioned it, I'll try turning my timing back 2°. Actually I've been busy but I want to check the timing cold, then check it again when real hot. With an electronics background I doubt a faulty MSD dizzy could advance the timing, but it could retard it. I'm grasping at straws but that is a constant with other things changed over time.

55 Tony
06-14-2018, 01:26 PM
Not going to go into details because some on here love to jump on my shit if I don't get it perfect. There is a lot of consistence to be gained with good fuel.

What??? Here???

chasracer
06-14-2018, 01:29 PM
Wow- Anytime you heat up the surrounding air around an engine, it is going to have some effect on the performance of that engine. The engine's ability to shed temperature is not strictly related to coolant temperature as you appear to believe. Oil temperatures, exhaust heat and coatings, air flow around the engine all contribute to the engine's ability to shed heat.

As to the alcohol comment, I have to hand it to you - I busted out laughing at your remark. Methanol fuel has an extreme affect on the temperature and performance of our engines. On racing fuel with adequate octane to support our compression ratios, we would have the same cooling issues to deal with that Tony is talking about but running Methanol, I can hot lap any of our cars 7,8,10 shots, doesn't matter, by the time we complete the run and get back to the lanes, our engine temperatures have dropped to 155 or so just due to the fuel.

And again if you really raced you would understand why Pro Stocks, Comp. Eliminator cars and others go through the process of chilling their engines. A cooler engine at the starting line is going to net you a better ET and MPH - each and every time.

chevynut
06-14-2018, 01:29 PM
That is not correct. Also I was way off with my 10:1 to 11:1. Looks more like 12.8:1 for max power.

What's not correct? Adding fuel when there's no oxygen for it to combine to creates zero additional heat energy. Believe what you want. Seems like you start these threads so you can argue with people who reply and try to help you. It might help if you learn something about physics and thermodynamics.

When you prove you have a problem and give us more data, maybe we can help you. This is sounding just like the "boiling gas" thread.

chevynut
06-14-2018, 02:20 PM
Wow- Anytime you heat up the surrounding air around an engine, it is going to have some effect on the performance of that engine. The engine's ability to shed temperature is not strictly related to coolant temperature as you appear to believe. Oil temperatures, exhaust heat and coatings, air flow around the engine all contribute to the engine's ability to shed heat.

Sure, everything "contributes" but most of the heat of combustion exits the engine through the exhaust and the coolant. If the engine can't reject enough heat through the cooling system the coolant temperature rises. If you turn off the water pump the temperature immediately soars. This proves that minimal heat loss occurs from the engine surfaces. Any other heat loss is minimal but it helps the engine reject heat though it's not necessary with an adequate cooling system. You could insulate the engine and oilpan and if the cooling system had the capacity to control temperature nothing would change.

Underhood temperatures have very little or no effect on combustion chamber temperatures. If you have a marginal cooling system, every little bit of heat rejection helps. A theoretical adiabatic engine would be 100% efficient as all the heat would be converted to mechanical energy and not wasted out the exhaust. Besides, the argument is moot because Tony isn't not having a coolant temperature issue. That was my point in the first place.


As to the alcohol comment, I have to hand it to you - I busted out laughing at your remark. Methanol fuel has an extreme affect on the temperature and performance of our engines. On racing fuel with adequate octane to support our compression ratios, we would have the same cooling issues to deal with that Tony is talking about but running Methanol, I can hot lap any of our cars 7,8,10 shots, doesn't matter, by the time we complete the run and get back to the lanes, our engine temperatures have dropped to 155 or so just due to the fuel.

Laugh all you want because you clearly don't understand what's going on. Here's what I said..... "The engine is creating just as much heat with alcohol as it did with gasoline." Are you disputing that? To create X horsepower you have to burn Y BTUs/hr of fuel. It doesn't matter what the fuel is.

As to what happens on the return to the pits, that's a different discussion altogether.


And again if you really raced you would understand why Pro Stocks, Comp. Eliminator cars and others go through the process of chilling their engines. A cooler engine at the starting line is going to net you a better ET and MPH - each and every time.

The colder the coolant is, the more heat is lost to the coolant and the less heat is used to push the piston down. You need to cool the engine at the beginning of a run so it doesn't overheat and/or detonate at the end of the run. If a cooler engine develops more power then why don't they run refrigerated water in them in the pits and put 32F water in them before the starting line?

Rick_L
06-14-2018, 02:45 PM
If a cooler engine develops more power then why don't they run refrigerated water in them in the pits and put 32F water in them before the starting line?


They (the Pro Stock guys) do, I already posted that in this thread. Well, maybe only 40°F. Others who don't do it either don't have the resources or they are just going for consistency not max power. It's a matter of money and effort.

55 Tony
06-14-2018, 02:53 PM
What's not correct? Adding fuel when there's no oxygen for it to combine to creates zero additional heat energy. Believe what you want. Seems like you start these threads so you can argue with people who reply and try to help you. It might help if you learn something about physics and thermodynamics.

When you prove you have a problem and give us more data, maybe we can help you. This is sounding just like the "boiling gas" thread.

No CN, what it seems like is that you are a grown adult that acts like a silly little child. A grown man that can never admit when he is wrong. You live a sad life. I know, I posted the kind of bullshit you post 20 or so years ago, but I grew up and grew out of it. It's about time for you to grow up.

You don't like my posts, you don't like when I shove facts in your face and you ignore them or you twist and turn the facts to make it look like you are never ever wrong about anything, if that's the kind of person you are, then don't reply to my posts at all. We can solve it that easy. Don't reply to my posts.

55 Rescue Dog
06-14-2018, 03:11 PM
I got tired of guessing with no idea of what my air/fuel ratio was, so I installed an AFR gauge, which is a great tuning tool that fuel injection basically operates on. And as far as engine temps go, how the hell does NASCAR run WFOpen getting hot enough to melt your shoes, all day long without all of these problems.

chevynut
06-14-2018, 04:10 PM
Nothing I said was "wrong", Tony, you just convolute and twist everything. Point to one thing I said that was wrong, and don't inject your other BS into the debate. The FACT is when you run out of oxygen, NO MORE FUEL CAN BURN! Seems like you keep arguing that's not true. Which part don't you understand? Besides, I think I'm a little more qualified than you are on the subject. Seems to me that you're the one who can't accept being wrong, and doesn't believe in physics.

Here's some info to consider.....

web.mit.edu/2.61/www/Lecture%20notes/Lec.%2018%20Heat%20transf.pdf


In an internal combustion engine, about 26% of the heat energy is used to make power. That leaves 74% that's rejected from the engine. About 54% of that is spent out of the exhaust. About 30% goes into the coolant, and about 9% of it is rejected in other ways such as convection and radiation off the engine. If your cooling system has 9% over-capacity you don't need ANY heat to be rejected off the engine surfaces to keep the engine cool. And under-hood temperatures have nearly zero effect on what's going on in the combustion chamber, which is all that matters. That means it has no effect on performance as long as the coolant temperature is maintained and air inlet temperature remains constant.

chevynut
06-14-2018, 04:12 PM
I got tired of guessing with no idea of what my air/fuel ratio was, so I installed an AFR gauge, which is a great tuning tool that fuel injection basically operates on.

I have a WBO2 sensor on my engine and I can tune on the fly with a laptop. It reads out AFR real-time like yours does.


And as far as engine temps go, how the hell does NASCAR run WFOpen getting hot enough to melt your shoes, all day long without all of these problems.

It's because what's going on under your shoes has nothing to do with what's going on in the combustion chamber. Under-hood temps are irrelevant as long as the cooling system can control engine temperature. And at 200 MPH that's probably not a big problem :).

WagonCrazy
06-14-2018, 04:19 PM
We can solve it that easy. Don't reply to my posts.
Took that advice long ago from this guy...:rolleyes:

chevynut
06-14-2018, 04:36 PM
Honestly Tony, I have no idea what you're arguing. You seem to think that a gasoline engine operates the same as a diesel when in fact, they operate through different thermodynamic cycles. A gas engine runs on the Otto Cycle and a diesel runs on the Diesel Cycle.

In a diesel engine, there is no throttle. Its aways wide open to the atmosphere So the more air you put into it the more fuel you can put into it. You don't have to be precise with the A/F ratio. The more fuel you put into it the more power, until you've consumed all the oxygen. Then you start pumping unburned fuel as black soot out of the tailpipe.

A gas engine is different. It's still primarily an air pump so the more air you can put into it the more gas you can put into it. However, for every level of airflow there is a correct amount of gasoline to achieve complete combustion. As I've been trying to tell you, again, once the oxygen is gone more fuel does nothing but cool the engine.

Why is it that when someone tries to help you, you insist on generating some sort of irrelevant argument? I don't know why you even brought A/F ratio up except so you could argue something. Apparently nothing has changed in 20 years.

55 Tony
06-14-2018, 05:23 PM
Evidently someone didn't look at the links I posted, or thinks those websites are all wrong.

55 Rescue Dog
06-14-2018, 05:26 PM
Evidently someone didn't look at the links I posted, or thinks those websites are all wrong.
I did, which is why I'm wondering what is your A/F ratio when the power goes up, or down? Everything I have runs best at 190 degrees plus.

55 Tony
06-14-2018, 05:27 PM
Took that advice long ago from this guy...:rolleyes:

Oh shit I read this a minute too late. I apologize to the group one more time for getting suckered in.

55 Rescue Dog
06-14-2018, 05:31 PM
It's always best not to post, and appear to be a fool, than type away and remove all doubt.

55 Tony
06-14-2018, 05:39 PM
I did, which is why I'm wondering what is your A/F ratio when the power goes up, or down?

If I get the street tires on tomorrow I'll let you know. I know when fully warmed up it hovers *around* 14.7 at light throttle, cruising the highway, pretty much all the time until I open the secondaries. My gauge is small and I don't have the comfort level trying to read it at the track, especially where it is now. I'll have to move it again in front of the tac so I can see it better during WOT.

chasracer
06-14-2018, 07:23 PM
Ahh, so there is an Ignore List with this board - just the thing for the situation.

55 Tony
06-15-2018, 03:48 AM
Ahh, so there is an Ignore List with this board - just the thing for the situation.

Ahh, great news! I found it and I'm all set.

markm
06-15-2018, 06:08 AM
Sorry Tony but I afraid I could drain your tank and fix at least half if not all of your problem
.

55 Tony
06-15-2018, 08:28 AM
I saw two things today, maybe 3. I checked the timing when it was cold and it was at 16° advanced where I thought it was, but I have what looks like a random misfire but I don't really hear it in the exhaust. I used 2 different lights. The one light is a dial back so I tried a few other cylinders and adjusted the dial to where I could see it, and the misfire was on other cylinders as well as #1. But I really didn't hear a misfire, is it normal to jump around a little bit or is that a definite problem?

I went for a drive and I didn't think it really ran that well from the start, maybe it warmed up enough from checking the timing? Ran it on the highway then parked with it in gear and running, the temp didn't go above 195F. Normally that is when I get the hottest readings, well except for shutting it down.

Back home when everything under the hood was hot as hell I checked the timing again. Whoa, it was 18 advanced. So I backed it down to 16. I'm guessing when cold the MSD is retarding it 2 degrees and when hot it goes to normal, but like I said, I'm guessing. I didn't get a chance to try it again.

One more thing I don't know if it's a problem, but I tried fast idle and at 1500rpm the mechanical advance already has it advanced to 28°. Is that too much too soon?

55 Tony
06-15-2018, 08:30 AM
Sorry Tony but I afraid I could drain your tank and fix at least half if not all of your problem
.

I don't think the local track has any fuel, but I'd be willing to try it if I can get some somewhere.

55 Tony
06-15-2018, 08:33 AM
I did, which is why I'm wondering what is your A/F ratio when the power goes up, or down? Everything I have runs best at 190 degrees plus.

Oh, I forgot to put that in my other post. At WOT it varies from 11:1 to 12:1, so I guess from the links to the charts I posted that should be good right?
OK, got to get some paying work done...

solidsguy
06-15-2018, 11:30 AM
I don't know if or how much it helped, but I've heard from more than one person how they used to put bags of ice on the intake manifold for as long as possible before the race or next race. And I don't know if they help any, but they still sell fuel chillers at Summit. A container with a coil that the fuel goes through and filled with ice/ice water. These days I think it's more of a retro thing.



They used to ice the intake (besides just cooling the engine overall) in an attempt to get as cool of a charge as possible. The theory was good, but I'm not sure if it made much difference since the A-F mix went through the ports so fast. Also, when the fuel mix comes out of the bottom of the carb it cools things anyway. If you ever run a tunnel-ram you can watch the outside of the top piece of the intake actually start to ice up after running for awhile.

Another thing is that the days I remember seeing them use ice was long before the days of air-gap intakes. The normal engine heat would heat up the regular intake runners quite alot, so they would pack ice bags on there to cool them back down.

This brings up the question whether or not you have the intake gaskets with the heat crossover block-offs? They can make quite a difference in runner heat.

The cool can things were bunk in my opinion also. A phenolic spacer helps just as much at keeping the carb cool.

I like your air feed setup. What piece is that at the filler panel? It looks a little cone shaped.

55 Tony
06-15-2018, 12:28 PM
If someone made an air gap for a spreadbore BBC, I'd have it! Yes I have both crossovers completely blocked and a 1" phenolic spacer. The spacer was needed way back before I rebuilt the motor, the carb would boil over quite often and flood the crap out of it. I think I blocked the crossovers at the same time. Had it apart a few times and always keep them blocked.. With as much problems I have with heat, I still get people telling me to either drill a hole in the crossover plates, or remove one. No, it ain't happening. At one time I had some pretty bad wiring and the ignition cut out then on again, it backfired so hard that it blew out the cheap thin aluminum crossover pieces that came with the gasket! Now they are stainless steel.

The air inlet is from Spectre or whatever their name is. It's 6 or so inches at the front and goes down to 4". Hard to keep shiny since it's aluminum. It does look cool for sure.

chasracer
06-15-2018, 01:28 PM
On those crossover ports, we used to take heavy duty aluminum foil and make balls of it about the size of the crossover passage and just keep filling it and cramming them in until we couldn't put anymore in there. The stainless steel plates are probably a better idea. On the timing movement, what you are seeing is not uncommon on Chevy engines, rare that any of them with stock type distributors and timing chains are dead steady. Besides a touch of slop in the chain with use, there is also the torsional twist of the cam. Sort of like a spring, it will twist a bit and then unload, then twist again. Unless it's bouncing around a larger number of degrees, I think it's okay. What MSD unit are you using, a 2 degree deal sounds funny, most of their built in retard units pull the timing back 10-20 degrees for starting. And are you saying you have 16 degrees initial timing and then all in at 28 degrees or are we adding that together for a 44 degree total? And I take it that you are reading this off of a degreed balancer. Dial-back timing lights are notorious for being off and using them with a MSD can be even worse.

Rick_L
06-15-2018, 01:33 PM
They used to ice the intake (besides just cooling the engine overall) in an attempt to get as cool of a charge as possible. The theory was good, but I'm not sure if it made much difference since the A-F mix went through the ports so fast. Also, when the fuel mix comes out of the bottom of the carb it cools things anyway. If you ever run a tunnel-ram you can watch the outside of the top piece of the intake actually start to ice up after running for awhile.

X2 on that. There is a tremendous cooling effect due to the pressure drop through the carburetor venturis. It's there on a standard manifold, just much easier to see on a tunnel ram.

solidsguy
06-15-2018, 03:14 PM
On those crossover ports, we used to take heavy duty aluminum foil and make balls of it about the size of the crossover passage and just keep filling it and cramming them in until we couldn't put anymore in there. The stainless steel plates are probably a better idea.

It's a little harder doing that on a BB because of the weird crossover port shapes. As you said it does work though.

I did something like that with a twist before. I took the foil and crammed it down into the head to make a dam, then I filled the rest of the way up with epoxy. Much later I had a wrist-pin issue so I pulled the motor apart. Inside those ports the foil was completely gone and burned up looking. I guess the foil burned up and passed though the exhaust just fine, because I don't remember having any noticeable problems.

The best way to solve it is to run a newer-better head that don't even have those useless crossover runners in the first place. The second best is to get an intake without them. The third best is obviously to run good gaskets with the block-offs. Money is always an issue with the first two though for most street guys.

Rick_L
06-15-2018, 03:29 PM
Back in the old days I had a pair of iron heads prepared by the late Lee Shepherd. He had a little dam that he built for the exhaust port so that he could melt down old pistons and pour the aluminum into the crossover passage. It served two purposes - one it blocked the crossover and two it "fixed" the exhaust port that connected to the crossover so that it looked like and flowed like the other exhaust ports. We set a record with that engine and NHRA had us tear it down to certify. Got scolded because Lee did "too nice of a job" and they told me to remove some of the metal in the port to crossover joint. They didn't take away the record or make me fix it that day, just told me not to come back with it that way. I don't miss that nit picking.

chasracer
06-16-2018, 05:22 AM
Oh yea, I raced a '55 Sedan Delivery with my partner in IHRA/NHRA SS/OA for a few years. I was at Budds Creek for an IHRA national event and on my second qualifying pass, they backed me off saying I had dumped fuel from the tank on the burn-out. This was a 3400 pound car that didn't exactly shake the ground on a burn-out. We went back to the pits, tore everything apart around the fuel tank and couldn't find any evidence that we were leaking, put it back together the way it was and ran the rest of the race and more after that without hearing about it again.

55 Tony
06-16-2018, 08:56 AM
There is no programed retarding of the timing for starting. What I thought was a delay/retard I believe I was mistaken reading it and it was 18 cold and hot. I turned it to 16.

I used a fixed, and a dial back light, both with the same results.

The *miss* wasn't it jumping around, the light(s) would skip a flash. I did this on 3 different cylinders.

The initial timing is (now) 16. The advance *at 1500rpm* takes it to 28 total (no vacuum), all in is 38 (no vacuum). I was asking if that advance at only 1500rpm is too early and I should change one spring to a little stronger one, but from what I see that isn't too much too soon. I don't think so anyway?

markm
06-16-2018, 07:48 PM
Well Tony I just got home from MWR it was high 90s with triple digit hear index's where a friend of mine and I double teamed my 3800 pound [ driver on board] SBC Z28, a little off from the fall about a tenth. No real issues thank you VP, get some and try it

chasracer
06-16-2018, 08:24 PM
So 1500 rpm you have 28* then 38 total at what rpm?

I think the 16* initial is okay and starting around 1500 rpm to say 2600-2800, like to see it all in at maybe 34*-35* total. Not sure of your fuel but 38* might be pushing it a bit and if you have 28* by 1500 rpm, that's maybe too much too early. But on the other hand, you need to find out what the engine wants too, so I wouldn't hesitate to swap springs and weights with test shots to see where the engine performs best.

55 Tony
06-17-2018, 08:23 PM
Long story short, I replaced the MSD/R2R distributor with an Autotronics/MSD distributor that is from the 70's or early 80's and I feel a big improvement in power. Not sure if I'll spend time tweaking it, or buying a different new distributor. MSD stopped supporting it 20 or so years ago. Last I talked to someone at MSD about it they basically told me it was a piece of crap.

Anyway, it was late and not hot out, BUT my A/F gauge never read as steady as it does now, a major difference. My timing light(s) were a LOT more steady. I don't know if it was the new smooth road, all in my head, or for real, but it felt like it was running smoother.

Tomorrow it's forecast to hit 90F, I'll sweat my ass off and take it for a ride. This is without the multi spark box hooked up yet either. Maybe I'll hook that up in the morning.

Let's say I'd like to use something more modern but not an MSD, any suggestions?

55 Tony
06-18-2018, 05:26 AM
Also, I had swapped gears from the R2R to the old one. If I get a new one, is a melonized gear compatible with a roller cam? Or bronze, or composite.

55 Tony
06-18-2018, 05:38 PM
Today I bypassed the electronics on the very old MSD distributor and fed the magnetic sensor signal directly to the 6AL multi spark box. It idles better than I ever remember. I took it out when it was just under 90°, then again at 94° and it ran great! No, not like when it's cold, but how you would expect it in the heat. So after years of it not running good when it's hot, I think it's finally fixed. This problem started out in extreem heat but was getting worse and worse, glad I think it's cured.

I'm not sure if I want to send the billet R2R in for repair or not. I could open it up and bypass the electronics in it also, but it's not just plug & play like the old distributor. I'd have to do a little more work on that one.

Rick_L
06-18-2018, 05:52 PM
If you have an MSD box, then you have no need for the module in the RTR distributor. Just wire it so that the magnetic trigger wire pair goes directly to the box. Observe polarity - one way gives you rock sold timing - reversing polarity gives you a slight retard at a fairly low rpm (but it's well above idle).

55 Tony
06-18-2018, 06:29 PM
If you have an MSD box, then you have no need for the module in the RTR distributor. Just wire it so that the magnetic trigger wire pair goes directly to the box. Observe polarity - one way gives you rock sold timing - reversing polarity gives you a slight retard at a fairly low rpm (but it's well above idle).

The R2R has the electronics buried down below, covered by what looks like an almost regular distributor. At the moment I don't recall if the trigger wires are accessible unless it all comes apart. I know about the polarity thing. I had changed the pickup in the old distributor, it's just a Ford part. MSD said the wires are a guess, 50/50 chance on getting them right. I started it up and it was backfiring and acting all crazy, swapped the wires and it ran good enough to set the timing. Back when I bought the ford pickup for it, msd would tell you what part to buy anywhere but now they are selling them again.

chasracer
06-19-2018, 03:37 AM
Also, I had swapped gears from the R2R to the old one. If I get a new one, is a melonized gear compatible with a roller cam? Or bronze, or composite.

Yes for a street vehicle that is the one to use. Make sure it has the correct inside diameter for your distributor shaft.

chasracer
06-19-2018, 03:43 AM
The R2R has the electronics buried down below, covered by what looks like an almost regular distributor. At the moment I don't recall if the trigger wires are accessible unless it all comes apart. I know about the polarity thing. I had changed the pickup in the old distributor, it's just a Ford part. MSD said the wires are a guess, 50/50 chance on getting them right. I started it up and it was backfiring and acting all crazy, swapped the wires and it ran good enough to set the timing. Back when I bought the ford pickup for it, msd would tell you what part to buy anywhere but now they are selling them again.

You're right about the polarity. A lot of the differences you see in timing are also related to the type of MSD box it is. A 6AL normally just retards about 4* if wired in reverse, but I have also seen MSD 7AL-3 units not only retard a few degrees but also refuse to retard the timing no matter what timing chips were installed in it.

55 Tony
06-21-2018, 06:38 AM
If you have an MSD box, then you have no need for the module in the RTR distributor. Just wire it so that the magnetic trigger wire pair goes directly to the box. Observe polarity - one way gives you rock sold timing - reversing polarity gives you a slight retard at a fairly low rpm (but it's well above idle).

Re: Polarity
I took the RTR apart last night. The pickup has a black/orange and a black/violet wire. The black/violet goes to ground.
The 6AL box input has a green wire and a violet wire. Neither go to ground.
So which way do the wires go? Or do I just try it, check the timing, switch them and check the timing again?

I'm desoldering the pickup wires from the circuit board and soldering the green and violet wires to them with an extra plug that came with the 6AL. If I have it wrong I'll just pull the wires/pins out of the plug and switch them. But if you know which is right ... ?

Rick_L
06-21-2018, 10:42 AM
I've run into exactly the same problem a long time ago and frankly it's been so long that I don't remember the answer. Best advice I can give you is to check the timing with it both ways, then you'll know for sure. Not too hard if you use a plug that allows you to switch the terminals quickly.

NickP
06-21-2018, 04:58 PM
Re: Polarity
I took the RTR apart last night. The pickup has a black/orange and a black/violet wire. The black/violet goes to ground.
The 6AL box input has a green wire and a violet wire. Neither go to ground.
So which way do the wires go? Or do I just try it, check the timing, switch them and check the timing again?

I'm desoldering the pickup wires from the circuit board and soldering the green and violet wires to them with an extra plug that came with the 6AL. If I have it wrong I'll just pull the wires/pins out of the plug and switch them. But if you know which is right ... ?

Instructions: http://documents.msdperformance.com/85551.pdf

Rick_L
06-21-2018, 06:43 PM
You don't want either wire on the pickup connected to ground. One goes to the green wire on the MSD box, and the other goes to the violet wire on the MSD box. The only hint to me is one of them is violet/black, I would connect it to the violet wire on the MSD, and the other one to the green. But I'd still check as suggested.

55 Tony
06-22-2018, 04:11 AM
Thanks Nick but I'm outside of what the instructions tell you. I'm turning a RTR distributor that can be used alone, just it and a coil into a distributor that needs an outside spark box. I'm bypassing all the electronics inside of it and just using the pickup.

NickP
06-22-2018, 01:52 PM
888-258-3835

55 Tony
06-23-2018, 10:24 AM
888-258-3835


I just asked the question in case Rick remembered it. It will take less time to try it and switch the wires if I have to, than to try and weasel that info out of MSD. The *tech* I talked to there last was typing my distributor symptoms into a computer and reading off the computer for things to look for. That's some great tech service. I seriously doubt he ever touched a distributor, or even knows what it does, let alone try to tell me how to modify it to other than how the factory built it.

markm
06-23-2018, 06:32 PM
no magic bullets in dist, seen many a car do fine with single points in the day.

55 Tony
06-24-2018, 07:09 AM
Ran pretty good last night with the ancient MSD dizzy. Had a couple close runs I won and a couple I lost, I can see how this gets addicting. In the next week or two they are supposed to have a timer!

Last run I ran by myself and was reading the A/F gauge , I was somewhere near 13.5-14. I guess I could richen it up a little? Timing was at 16°. I was told I have a real sleeper with the Dynomax mufflers.

I was also told that it really wakes up around the 60' mark. Now who was that who said I need a convertor? That would be an indication wouldn't it?

chasracer
06-24-2018, 08:13 AM
Ran pretty good last night with the ancient MSD dizzy. Had a couple close runs I won and a couple I lost, I can see how this gets addicting. In the next week or two they are supposed to have a timer!

Last run I ran by myself and was reading the A/F gauge , I was somewhere near 13.5-14. I guess I could richen it up a little? Timing was at 16°. I was told I have a real sleeper with the Dynomax mufflers.

I was also told that it really wakes up around the 60' mark. Now who was that who said I need a convertor? That would be an indication wouldn't it?

Ha-Ha - sorry man, I have to laugh!. Remember one of my earlier post - it starts off just seeing what she'll do, then a little tweek here and there, then slicks, then a bit more horsepower and before you know it, your street/strip ride is barely streetable. Not being critical at all, I have been through it, done it, seen it so many times over the years but hell - it's a blast isn't it?!

Welcome to my addiction, you can check out but you can never leave.

Not sure what you have in it right now for converter but yep a touch looser would get her moving a bit quicker and put you closer to your optimal RPM range and power band. If that's out of the question, then you might want to look at advancing the camshaft a few degrees, that will move the power band downward RPM wise and get you closer to what the converter does. And yep, you could go up a couple of numbers on jet but make changes based on what your spark plugs are telling you. That's the true information. Change out #1 and #2 with a pair of new ones, shut off at the end of your pass and let her coast around to the return road. Pull the new ones and replace with your old then head back to your pit. Google "sparkplug reading 101" - really good information on what the plugs are telling you. Have fun!!

markm
06-24-2018, 08:16 AM
I feel like a broken record but a good name band converter is very important part of any serious street/strip effort,

55 Tony
06-24-2018, 08:20 AM
I feel like a broken record but a good name band converter is very important part of any serious street/strip effort,
Did you read the whole post? I think you missed a sentence.

55 Tony
06-24-2018, 08:27 AM
I feel like a broken record but a good name band converter is very important part of any serious street/strip effort,
Did you read the whole post? I think you missed a sentence.

55 Tony
06-24-2018, 08:29 AM
Since my running when hot problem is fixed, I started a new thread. Shows a whole 2 seconds of one of my runs, and my friend goofing around.

55 Tony
06-27-2018, 05:28 AM
Ha-Ha - sorry man, I have to laugh!. Remember one of my earlier post - it starts off just seeing what she'll do, then a little tweek here and there, then slicks, then a bit more horsepower and before you know it, your street/strip ride is barely streetable. Not being critical at all, I have been through it, done it, seen it so many times over the years but hell - it's a blast isn't it?!

Welcome to my addiction, you can check out but you can never leave.

Not sure what you have in it right now for converter but yep a touch looser would get her moving a bit quicker and put you closer to your optimal RPM range and power band. If that's out of the question, then you might want to look at advancing the camshaft a few degrees, that will move the power band downward RPM wise and get you closer to what the converter does. And yep, you could go up a couple of numbers on jet but make changes based on what your spark plugs are telling you. That's the true information. Change out #1 and #2 with a pair of new ones, shut off at the end of your pass and let her coast around to the return road. Pull the new ones and replace with your old then head back to your pit. Google "sparkplug reading 101" - really good information on what the plugs are telling you. Have fun!!

I wired my RTR deleting the circuit board inside and going straight to the 6AL box. Put the street tires on and it seems to run well using just the pickup. Tried going WOT a few times and the a/f looked good now? Got caught in some heavy rain, down to 15mph to see. Glad I have my trusty vacuum wipers. (seriously I like them) The cam is already advanced 2 degrees. After the rain I hit the highway to heat up the plugs, checked them at home after 3 miles of driving slow and they looked a lot cleaner than they used to. That RTR must have been getting worse and worse over time, the plugs were turning medium brown and I didn't know why. Now one side (of the plug) is almost white and the other side a light brown/tan. Looks good to me but I can look at the track with 2 new ones like you said.

chasracer
06-28-2018, 05:43 AM
What I look for is the mark on the side electrode, with gas the closer to the bend is good for proper timing and heat range. The base of the threads tells me where I am at on mixture -, dark, sooty carbon is too rich, whitish is way lean so I am looking for a dark gray color or a clean flat black. The porcelain should be tan in color and I like to see the bottom ring of it in the bottom area of the plug where the porcelain comes out of the shell. Normally I cut the threaded area off of the plug to see this area - almost impossible without one of those real expensive plug magnifiers. On a new engine combination, I will cut a couple of plugs just to make sure we have the proper one in there.

55 Tony
06-28-2018, 06:33 AM
Thanks. Before the distributor started getting worse and worse, I was running AC 42's and they were burning nice. Then with the AF gauge addition and setting the carb richer, I changed to hotter 43's. Then after a while they started looking too cold. I didn't know what was going on with the darn distributor and went to 44xt's and they still looked bad. The porcelain was medium brown and I think they had soot on the base of the threads. Now those same plugs cleaned themselves with the only change being the distributor. I can probably go a notch or two colder now. If I do, then is it a good chance I can advance the timing a bit? Maybe best I wait till the timer at the track is working.

Most of the plugs are hard to read because some time ago I thought I had a knock and was using off the shelf octane booster which turns the plugs orange, now that orange is a sort of bright yellow. Turns out the noise was not pre igniton, hell I can't even recall what it was now? I had changed 1 and 2 so I could read them without the orange crap some time ago. I'm just so fricken happy it runs like it should again. I've heard MSD RTR's called Ready to Quit, and now I have a little round circuit board that agrees. I think I'll hang that little bastard on the wall with the oil pan baffle that the spot welds broke loose.

solidsguy
06-28-2018, 09:19 AM
Glad you found it. Sometimes the simpler problems are the hardest to find. Frustrating at best!

chasracer
06-28-2018, 01:52 PM
Sounds good on adding some additional timing with colder plugs. You might want to see how cold you can go. Back in the day (as they say) a "normal" small block Chevy would run Champion J-12Y plugs but I found that I was able to get down to a J-10Ys without any issues and turn up the timing a bit which helped get that sled moving. Of course there's a world of difference in the fuel today.

I once chased a mid-speed misfire on a Buick engine for months. I can't remember all the crap I changed trying to find it and it ended up being a cracked ground lead inside the HEI unit. Soldered it back together and it ran great again - until my newly licensed teenage son decided to grenade the engine one day on the way to school....

55 Tony
07-01-2018, 09:55 AM
Right now my timing is advanced 18°. Cranks easy and no ping/knock. Is there any reason to bump it up a little till it gets hard to start (kicks back) then back off a little?

solidsguy
07-02-2018, 03:40 PM
Right now my timing is advanced 18°. Cranks easy and no ping/knock. Is there any reason to bump it up a little till it gets hard to start (kicks back) then back off a little?

What worked for me was to pick a warm day and bump the timing almost til the motor starts to buck when cranked. Take it out and drive for a while to get full heat, then pick a long hill and push it some til it starts to ping. Pull over and back it off a tiny bit. Kept doing that a few times til the ping was gone. Of course some things like outside temp and different brand fuel would change things a little, but overall would be a good system for a street car. After everything was good I'd only then check the timing numbers and write it down somewhere (usually lost though). I'd do that for when cam or intake change time came. That number would get things back to close.