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chasracer
10-10-2018, 03:09 PM
Has anyone swapped the steering arms from side to side and if so what was the result?

chevynut
10-10-2018, 03:22 PM
The result is the tapers for the tie rod ends will be upside down. What result are you looking for?

chasracer
10-10-2018, 07:43 PM
The result is the tapers for the tie rod ends will be upside down. What result are you looking for?

No they wouldn't be upside down but I don't really care about the tapers anyway. I want to change them so that the tie rod end faces to the front.

chevynut
10-10-2018, 07:51 PM
No they wouldn't be upside down but I don't really care about the tapers anyway.

If you swap left for right and right for left, you have to turn them upside down so the ends point inboard.



I want to change them so that the tie rod end faces to the front.

You didn't say that before, but that won't work. The Ackerman would be totally screwed up. It would make more sense to just turn each side around so the tie rod connections were pointing outboard and forward but that probably won't work either. That's the way the C4 spindles and steering arms are.

9233

chevynut
10-10-2018, 08:14 PM
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQ5qiNpSIH_91-9IJm7XSLbr1P9b8Dauqlh6Cn9uEMbQ-wQYjWWkA

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/43/Ackermann_simple_design.svg/170px-Ackermann_simple_design.svg.png

Custer55
10-11-2018, 06:44 AM
What are you trying to achieve? If you want a front steer system (steering system in front of the axle centerline) you need a completely different front cross member to make it work right. A Tri-five frame would not work with a front steer system without a lot of mods since it was designed to work with a rear steer system.

Belair-o
10-11-2018, 07:00 AM
Chevynut,
Thanks for that diagram! People have tried to explain Ackerman Angle to me before, using words, and I never really got it. As they say, a picture is worth a thousand words! Thanks, Doug

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQ5qiNpSIH_91-9IJm7XSLbr1P9b8Dauqlh6Cn9uEMbQ-wQYjWWkA

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/43/Ackermann_simple_design.svg/170px-Ackermann_simple_design.svg.png

Rick_L
10-11-2018, 08:54 AM
To add a little bit to this, the Ackerman effect makes the inner wheel turn a bit farther than the outer. The wheels actually toe out. This makes the tires roll free in a turn because the outer tire traverses a larger radius.

If you had Ackerman backwards (steering arms pointing out if behind the spindles or pointing in if in front), one or both tires would drag through a turn.

chasracer
10-14-2018, 08:37 AM
Well, if I was road-racing this deal then the above would be really important. But I am also not sure that changing the angle that minor amount would have that great an affect on the the turning ability. What all of this lacks is no one here has actually tried it - so I will either succeed with what I want to do or it will fail. Looking at the Vette stuff is pretty close to what I am thinking of doing and it might take some aftermarket steering arms to accomplish it rather than using the stock pieces. I will know one way or the other by winter this year.

Rick_L
10-14-2018, 03:04 PM
You might do ok circle track or road racing with less Ackerman in some situations, but I don't think backwards Ackerman will work on anything. Just my thought. The tires will squeal.

chevynut
10-14-2018, 04:02 PM
Well, if I was road-racing this deal then the above would be really important. But I am also not sure that changing the angle that minor amount would have that great an affect on the the turning ability. What all of this lacks is no one here has actually tried it - so I will either succeed with what I want to do or it will fail.

I wouldn't try it myself because I know it won't work right. The inside tire has to turn farther than the outside tire in a turn or the tires will scrub. It's that simple and that's why Ackerman is used. What you're proposing with reverse Ackerman would cause the outside tire to turn further than the inside tire, which is all wrong. It would "work" on dirt or gravel where the tires could slide but it would be totally screwed up on dry pavement, especially at large turning angles and at low speed like in a parking lot. A pencil and paper should convince you that it won't work, if you don't believe it. ;)

Custer55
10-15-2018, 07:36 AM
https://www.f1technical.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8874

Found this on a google search. Sounds like reverse Ackermann can be a useful thing on race cars but not something you would want on a street car.

chasracer
10-15-2018, 01:17 PM
i believe there are times when you have to go with what there is but again maybe with some aftermarket steering arms, I thiink I can accomplish what I want to do. And they told Dr. Frankenstein he couldn't do what he wanted to either....Boo!

chevynut
10-15-2018, 05:16 PM
What exactly are you trying to accomplish? Aftermarket or custom steering arms could get the Ackerman right if they have the right geometry. The tie rod would end up close to the disc rotor like the C4 picture I attached above.

chasracer
10-15-2018, 07:38 PM
Listen once again. Thanks for the insight but I do not care about the ackerman issue. If the tires drag a bit at the end of a run then so be it. I'm building a car that's ignoring some of the norms simply because I want too. Right now I am considering some S-10 dropped spindles.

Rick_L
10-16-2018, 04:35 PM
If you are considering this for a drag car, think about this. Do you push the car manually in the pits or shop, or when loading or unloading the trailer? If so, pushing it while turning is going to become a HUGE problem.

chasracer
10-16-2018, 05:25 PM
Ha - unless it's broke I don't do any pushing! Damn things are meant to be driven. And again, this is not changing the angle that much. In fact I don't think it's going to have much of an impact at all.

Rick_L
10-16-2018, 06:51 PM
If you are unconcerned, why did you ask?

By asking, you won't be surprised if it turns out badly. Hope you reconsider.

chevynut
10-16-2018, 07:01 PM
Obviously we have one of these guys who doesn't believe anything until he tries it himself. So go for it and remind me next time not to try to help prevent you from doing anything stupid. I don't even see the point of your original post if you don't believe what anyone tells you. Good luck.

chasracer
10-17-2018, 05:20 AM
I asked if "ANYONE" had swapped the steering arms and if so, what was the result.

Nothing wrong with finding out if someone else might have gone there before you - problem is, no one on this board or reading the post has - I appreciate the information provided but I'm still going forward with my plans.

If you haven't actually done what I asked then you certainly have no real experience to share on it. And that's okay but don't make a big deal out of the fact that I asked a question about it but do not agree with your answers.

I once spotted a Chevelle like mine at the track that was slammed to the ground. I went over and asked how he got it that low and he took the hood off and showed me. Honestly, in my book he broke a lot of common sense rules but the damned thing worked and it was a winning car. And maybe before that a bit but a lot after it, I have always been willing to question the "general concensus". Just because it might look weird or wrong or whatever doesn't mean it won't get the job done.

BBPanel
10-17-2018, 10:49 AM
We (son and I) tried it. Swapped knuckles side to side and modified them. It worked quite well except turning radius was reduced too much because of the angle of the steering arms, just not enough throw. Would have had to push the rack back into the front crossmember and raised it somewhat to get it right - I still think about trying it again. Makes the connection to the steering column fairly simple and no interference for headers. If we had done that we probably would have had some billet knuckles made - just something about welded knuckles. Before trying this, we found 5 different guys that had also done the same conversion - most of them used much longer custom made knuckles. I believe all were street driven but one - it was a drag car.
92509251

chasracer
10-17-2018, 01:13 PM
Finally !!! And a big thank you for the pics - that helps a ton. What I want to do is basically the same but I want to cut out the middle part of the crossmember so that the R&P can move back some. If you can, check out an episode on PowerNation - https://www.powernationtv.com/episode/MC2007-04/budget-front-end-mods. The work shown is on a Camaro clip but the ideas are the same. I don't need bumper mounts so I can remove the stock ones but I will have to put something out there to hang the front of the glass front end on.

Thanks again!