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Thread: Welder circuit

  1. #11
    Registered Member warren57's Avatar
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    Check the tag on the Hobart. Keep in mind, it will be rated at 100% output, which you will NEVER reach. Also recommended circuit size (which factors in huge safety) and actual load are two different things.You'll be lucky if you ever reach 50% of the load rating. 50 amp is plenty for the machine you are proposing. As for wire, nope... 220 single phase takes three wires, the fourth is the addition of a ground rod. I did pound in an additional rod at my shop panel, because I tied in at the feed to the meter, not at my house panel. So, from the meter, the house is fed with 3 wires (mine from United Power), the ground rod adds the fourth wire you see in your panel. At my meter, United power has a main breaker in their box and it had room for a couple additional breakers. I added a 50 Amp (called them first and they said their source from the transformer was unlimited, so add any amp load I desired). Ran three wires to my sub panel at the shop, added a ground rod and grounded the panel (and the metal building). My 220 lift, welders, etc are all three wire connections. If you get power from xcel and you add a sub panel fed from your house panel, most inspectors want the 4th wire, connecting both panel grounds together.
    The ground terminates at the same buss bar as the neutral. The ground was added to modern electrical as a back up for neutral that might go bad (break), leaving you as the source to ground. (the reason modern receptacles have three prongs, not two, like years ago) Single phase panels have 3 buss bars, the two the breakers are attached to are 110v each (on different transformer phases) therefore one 110v from each buss bar connected to a device will create 220v. The neutral is were any misc. unused power is sent to ground. This keeps the ground from shocking you if you touch it (like touching a metal drill). Now GFI's measure shorts and trip at 1/60,000 of a second (or something like that) so you can't get shocked from a short even if you stand in a bucket of water and touch the wires! and arc fault breakers detect an arc, in a switch, light bulb, motor, wire anything that arcs, but not necessarily a short. New in 2009 NEC and a pain in the but in the shop or anywhere a brush type motor operates (a vacuum cleaner), but again they trip upon detection of an arc of any type.
    This is a very brief description of electrical. Call me if you want to talk in detail. Have several friends that are electrical engineers and a couple master electricians that taught me the ropes many years ago. Since, I've wired all the homes I've built though the years and helped many of my friends with theirs.

  2. #12
    Registered Member chevynut's Avatar
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    Rick and Warren, thanks for the attempt at explaining this stuff. I don't really understand how GFIs work in detail, since I've never studied them. However, I know that they somehow measure the current to ground and trip if they detect any. What I don't understand is how they still can work when ground and neutral are bonded together at the breaker panel. The ground wire goes AROUND the GFI, not through it. So if neutral and ground are essentially the same thing at the panel, how can it measure current to ground? Maybe it detects the current LOSS that should be going back through the neutral wire but isn't? We have to use GFI in any garage or shop, bathroom, kitchen, or any possible wet location. And I am pretty sure we also have to bond the ground and neutral together in the panel by code. That's the way it is in my old shop, I think. Then the ground buss is connected to a ground rod outside the old shop. The new shop panel is grounded to the foundation with rebar embedded into the footings...that's the new code.

    Now, getting back to making a 110V outlet on a 220V machine. Is it okay to use ground as neutral in that application, since there's no GFI involved? Seems like it would work, but the ground wire would be bare. Maybe no issue there, but don't know if it's legal. If I need 6/3 with ground, I need to change it now. Rick, does your inverter machine have torch cooling? If so, where does it get power? The cooling unit I can get for my 180SD is 110V and I'd rather not plug it into the wall separately if I get one. The cord going into the welder is 8/3...don't know if that includes ground, but I think it does.

    BTW, sometimes my TIG welder, which is on 220V, trips one of my 110V GFIs. It seems to happen when we forget to connect the ground clamp from the welder to the thing we're welding, and try to weld.
    56 Nomad, Ramjet 502, Viper 6-speed T56, C4 Corvette front and rear suspension


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  3. #13
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    As you can probably tell, I'm having the same thoughts about ground vs. neutral as you are. I don't see any way you can connect them together at the panel.

    My welder doesn't have a water cooled torch. I connected it to the same receptacle as my Econotig. I have a 4 wire plug and receptacle, but there's no 120V receptacle on the welder. I don't think the neutral wire is connected to anything, unless some of the internal controls or the display runs on 120V. So if I had a cooler, I'd have to run a separate power cord to a 120V receptacle.

  4. #14
    Registered Member chevynut's Avatar
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    There is a "bonding screw" in the panel that you use to connect neutral to ground. Warren said "The ground terminates at the same buss bar as the neutral." but mine has two separate bus bars. It's the "bonding screw" that connects them together. I guess some places on earth don't need it and some do, for some strange reason.
    56 Nomad, Ramjet 502, Viper 6-speed T56, C4 Corvette front and rear suspension


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  5. #15
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    If you would care to read the wikipedia article that comes up when you googe "ac circuit neutral and ground", most of the questions discussed here are answered fairly well. Nobody was dead wrong in their statements, just more compete answers for the most part.

  6. #16
    Registered Member warren57's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chevynut View Post
    There is a "bonding screw" in the panel that you use to connect neutral to ground. Warren said "The ground terminates at the same buss bar as the neutral." but mine has two separate bus bars. It's the "bonding screw" that connects them together. I guess some places on earth don't need it and some do, for some strange reason.

    Well the reason you see two terminal strips for ground and neutral is to accommodate the number of terminations. The bonding screw in essence makes them a single bar. If you trace the 3 wires back to the transformer or to the pole (if you have a pole) you will see two insulated wires, these are the two 110v feeds, looking at a pole, you will see a bare stranded wire that is connected to the mast at the house, this goes to ground at the pole,through the metal panel case. through the ground and neutral terminal strips and to the ground rod and water pipe ground at the house. The stranded bare wire from the pole serves a dual purpose, a "support" wire to hang the two line voltage wires and as the neutral/ground line.

    As for the ground fault breaker, it detects an unbalanced condition between the line side and neutral. In other words (as I understand) the breaker is sensing current (amps) passing through the breaker and trips if you over amp the circuit, the same as a standard breaker, then in addition, it is sensing voltage in the neutral (current coming through the neutral side of the same circuit. If to much voltage is sensed due to a short ( the line side connected to the neutral through a short condition), the breaker will also trip. So, it is a dual purpose breaker, trip on over amperage and trip on short. When you push the test button on the breaker, you are shorting out the line voltage side of the breaker to the neutral side, that imbalance is sensed and the breaker trips.
    No sure if that helps or not?









    Try reading this, it may make more sense....http://www.homeinspector.org/resourc...nals/GFCIs.pdf
    Last edited by warren57; 09-04-2013 at 02:31 PM.

  7. #17
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    Good explanation Warren except that not all GFI breakers are also able to detect an overload.

    As you said, what the GFI is detecting is a difference in current between the "hot" wire and the "neutral" wire. In other words if the neutral/ground is shorted or partially shorted to ground at the machine or receptacle, rather than completing the circuit back to the breaker box.

    One place where I missed it is that the neutral and ground ARE connected together at the breaker box (I thought they weren't). Except in some instances, which are explained in the article I referenced.
    Last edited by Rick_L; 09-04-2013 at 05:45 PM.

  8. #18
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    The poles in the street do not feed grounds to houses. That bar wire is just to suspend the wires. Ground rods, supply the ground for each meter fit. there is usually one at the meter & one or two at the panel.
    Ranges, driers any other similar devises require a neutral & separate ground In the cast that one fails the devise still has a ground. That's why a panel has a ground and a neutral. Electricity wants to seek a ground If the neutral should break with out a ground, it will find another way ground "YOU"
    Sub panels the ground & the neutral are separated & run back to the main panel. Long runs from the main panel a additional ground rod is added.
    On GFI's it measures the flow between hot & neutral. to test a GIF, place a circuit tester between hot & ground if the GIF is good, it will trip.
    I have no electrical training but working in construction for 30 years you pick up information.

  9. #19
    Registered Member chevynut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Olderthandirt View Post
    Ranges, driers any other similar devises require a neutral & separate ground In the cast that one fails the devise still has a ground. That's why a panel has a ground and a neutral.
    It's my understanding that since a range requires 110V as well as 220V, that's why the neutral is required. I was told by the inspector that dryers don't require the neutral wire, only the two 110V leads and ground. That may not be the case with the newer dryers and their electronics.

    Sub panels the ground & the neutral are separated & run back to the main panel. Long runs from the main panel a additional ground rod is added.
    Not sure about that. My entire shop on a subpanel...two actually. The old shop has a ground rod and ground and neutral are bonded in it. I ran another subpanel in my new shop off of the subpanel in the old shop, and it has a ground rod too. I'm betting the inspector tells me to bond neutral to ground. The old shop's subpanel is about 90-100 feet from the house panel, and the new shop subpanel is about 70 feet of wire from the old shop panel.

    So basically neutral and ground are the same thing in my shop.

    Nobody's really answered my question about getting the 110V at the welder. Will I need a neutral on the welder or not? I believe the cable connected to the welder is hot, hot, and ground. The Hobart welder has the same exact 8/3 cable, and it has 110V outlets on it. I'm betting they're using one power leg and ground.....no neutral. But I'm not sure.
    56 Nomad, Ramjet 502, Viper 6-speed T56, C4 Corvette front and rear suspension


    Other vehicles:

    56 Chevy 2-door BelAir sedan
    56 Chevy 210 4-door sedan
    57 Chevy 210 4-door sedan
    1962 327/340HP Corvette
    1961 Willys CJ3B Jeep
    2001 Porsche Boxster S
    2003 Chevy Silverado 2500 HD Duramax
    2019 GMC Sierra Denali Duramax

  10. #20
    Registered Member warren57's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=Olderthandirt;13376]The poles in the street do not feed grounds to houses. That bar wire is just to suspend the wires. Ground rods, supply the ground for each meter fit. there is usually one at the meter & one or two at the panel.



    Kind of... the pole is grounded, the stranded bare wire is grounded at the pole (in Colorado anyway), as it attaches to the mast at the house, the mast is connected to the meter housing and breaker box and the breaker box is grounded to the water pipe and ground rod at that point. Therefore the all metallic components attached to each other are grounded at the house and again at the pole. The 2 insulated wires coming in from the pole attach to each power buss bar. The 3rd (bare wire) coming in from the pole suspends the insulated wires and is attached to the panel neutral buss and becomes the grounded neutral.
    Here's a couple of pictures...
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by warren57; 09-04-2013 at 09:49 PM.

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