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Thread: Welder circuit

  1. #21
    Registered Member warren57's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chevynut View Post
    It's my understanding that since a range requires 110V as well as 220V, that's why the neutral is required. I was told by the inspector that dryers don't require the neutral wire, only the two 110V leads and ground. That may not be the case with the newer dryers and their electronics.



    Not sure about that. My entire shop on a subpanel...two actually. The old shop has a ground rod and ground and neutral are bonded in it. I ran another subpanel in my new shop off of the subpanel in the old shop, and it has a ground rod too. I'm betting the inspector tells me to bond neutral to ground. The old shop's subpanel is about 90-100 feet from the house panel, and the new shop subpanel is about 70 feet of wire from the old shop panel.

    So basically neutral and ground are the same thing in my shop.

    Nobody's really answered my question about getting the 110V at the welder. Will I need a neutral on the welder or not? I believe the cable connected to the welder is hot, hot, and ground. The Hobart welder has the same exact 8/3 cable, and it has 110V outlets on it. I'm betting they're using one power leg and ground.....no neutral. But I'm not sure.
    OK 110 to the welder, pull a hot of one leg of the 220, it's 110. Use it on line side of device. Use the common neutral on the other side of the device. Now you have a 110v outlet. The third ground wire from the outlet parallels the (white) neutral and either runs back to the panel with the neutral or attaches to the ground screw on the welder frame, which if wired correctly also has a (bare) wire from the metal shell or frame back to the panel.
    Now the problem.... you are feeding the welder with a double pole breaker. You want to keep both legs of power fairly equal in load so one side of the breaker doesn't want to trip before the other side.
    Correct and best solution, run a dedicated 110 source separate from the 220 to your welder. Pull it off a 110 wall receptacle. Heck, put a cord cap on it and plug it in at the wall when you want it.... many options.

  2. #22
    Registered Member warren57's Avatar
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    One place where I missed it is that the neutral and ground ARE connected together at the breaker box (I thought they weren't). Except in some instances, which are explained in the article I referenced.[/QUOTE]


    Well, yes they are all connected together at the panel. Look at the neutral buss bar lugs and the bond wire that connects to the additional terminal strips, making them all common to each other (where all the whites and bare wires terminate). They are all connected at random and all are attached to the lugs, Whites (neutrals) and bare (grounds) are intermixed. The terminal strips are screwed to the metal box with screws and therefore are part of the grounding system. The bond wire interconnects all of the neutrals and grounds to the grounding system (rod/water pipe) and the neutral buss bar.
    The only buss bars and wires that are insulated from the panel shell (grounding system) are the two line voltage wires and in turn the breakers that connect to those two buss bars. Everything else is attached mechanically to the grounding system.

  3. #23
    Registered Member chevynut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by warren57 View Post
    OK 110 to the welder, pull a hot of one leg of the 220, it's 110. Use it on line side of device. Use the common neutral on the other side of the device. Now you have a 110v outlet. The third ground wire from the outlet parallels the (white) neutral and either runs back to the panel with the neutral or attaches to the ground screw on the welder frame, which if wired correctly also has a (bare) wire from the metal shell or frame back to the panel.
    Now the problem.... you are feeding the welder with a double pole breaker. You want to keep both legs of power fairly equal in load so one side of the breaker doesn't want to trip before the other side.
    Correct and best solution, run a dedicated 110 source separate from the 220 to your welder. Pull it off a 110 wall receptacle. Heck, put a cord cap on it and plug it in at the wall when you want it.... many options.
    There is no neutral wire, that's my point. The welder only has an 8/3 cable on it, but it has a 110V receptacle. It has two 110V leads and a ground. My 180SD welder has the same cord. Why would they put a receptacle on the welder if it wasn't correct?
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  4. #24
    Registered Member warren57's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chevynut View Post
    There is no neutral wire, that's my point. The welder only has an 8/3 cable on it, but it has a 110V receptacle. It has two 110V leads and a ground. My 180SD welder has the same cord. Why would they put a receptacle on the welder if it wasn't correct?

    Your welder circuit should have either 3 or 4 wires. Sounds like you have 3. So, 2 are power one is ground (/neutral). The ground wire attaches to the frame/case of the welder. They are using the ground as a neutral for the 110v outlet..

  5. #25
    Registered Member warren57's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rick_L View Post
    Good explanation Warren except that not all GFI breakers are also able to detect an overload.

    As you said, what the GFI is detecting is a difference in current between the "hot" wire and the "neutral" wire. In other words if the neutral/ground is shorted or partially shorted to ground at the machine or receptacle, rather than completing the circuit back to the breaker box.

    One place where I missed it is that the neutral and ground ARE connected together at the breaker box (I thought they weren't). Except in some instances, which are explained in the article I referenced.
    Yes, my GFI's do trip on either over amp or short. You buy them in amp rating to protect the circuit from to high amperage. I trip my kitchen GFI on over amp whenever I have the microwave and to many appliances all running at the same time and my garage gfi whenever I have to many things running at one time. Try plugging in a few electric heaters and run your amps over the rating on the breaker and I'll bet it will trip. Unplug stuff and get the load below max amps and I'll bet it doesn't trip.
    See attached flowchart/ picture.
    Also, here is is a piece of manufacturers literature:
    "...GFCI circuit breakers perform two functions. If it is a true circuit breaker it will prevent "over-current" conditions from overheating the wiring of your home and hopefully minimize the potential for fire. All circuit breakers and fuses are designed to 'trip' or 'blow' when an over-current condition exists. GFCI circuits have an additional function. To prevent or minimize the potential for hazardous shocks, GFCI circuits compare the current that goes across the two wires that make up the hot and common voltage lines of an outlet. If the current on the two wires does not match precisely, the assumption is that current is being lost to something outside of the circuit. This condition is called a "ground fault". In simple terms, it means that there is high potential that YOU are grounded, as in standing in a puddle of water, and YOU have touched the "hot" side of the circuit or the device somehow allows current to go outside of the normal voltage path. A ground fault can exist if an outside outlet has become wet with rainwater, or an outside extension cord is laying in water or an appliance is in the process of failing and voltage leaks to the ground wire. But as already mentioned, it can also indicate that the GFCI has failed, although that doesn't often happen.

    G.F.C.I. [Ground Fault Circuit Interrupter] trips when it senses a ground fault. In a correctly wired circuit the return path should be on the neutral wire. The circuit will trip if the GFCI senses a difference in the current (Amps) in the Black "hot wire" from what is returning in the White "neutral wire". These two values should be the same unless you are leaking electricity which is called a ground fault. This can happen in a wet location when electricity is using the water as it's ground and not returning back through the neutral wire. Older motors can also leak electricity in to their motor housings. If the electricity is not returning through it's designed path then you may have a safety hazard and your GFCI is protecting you."

    I've never seen a gfi breaker that doesn't protect on over amp, but they may very well be out there???
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    Last edited by warren57; 09-05-2013 at 07:03 AM.

  6. #26
    Registered Member NickP's Avatar
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    http://www.nojolt.com/Understanding_...circuits.shtml

    Quote Originally Posted by Understanding 220 or 240 volt Electrical Circuits

    To understand how a 240 volt (also known as 220 volt) household circuit works you should first know a little bit about how a regular 120 / 110 volt circuit works. If you are at all familiar with residential electrical wiring then you probably already know that in most cases appliances, and fixtures connect to three wires:


    1) A black wire which is often known as the "hot" wire, which carries the current in to the fixture.
    2) A white wire called the neutral which completes the electrical circuit.
    3) A bare copper wire called the ground, the sole function of which is to enhance user safety.


    When the circuit is in use current is "pushed" through the fixture by way of the "hot" wire and then to ground by way of the neutral, and unless something goes wrong the bare ground wire doesn't do anything except to remain ever vigilant in case of a problem.

    Since house current is alternating current the actual direction that the electrons flow reverses direction 60 times per second (60 cycles). Put another way, the hot wire has a negative charge alternating with an equal positive charge, and the polarity of the hot wire reverses 60 times per second.

    Now for the quick explanation of 240 / 220 volt house current; Appliances which use straight 240 current (such as electric water heaters, or rotary phase converters) also have three wires:


    1) A black wire which is often known as the "hot" wire, which carries the current in to the fixture.
    2) Another "hot" wire which may be blue, red or white (if it is white the code actually requires it to painted or otherwise marked one of the other colors, but often it is not) which also carries current in to the fixture.
    3) A bare copper wire called the ground, the sole function of which is to enhance user safety.


    That's it, no neutral. Now, if you are paying attention, then you are probably wondering "If there isn't a neutral wire then how is the circuit completed?" The answer is that when one hot wire is negative, then the other is positive, so the two hot wires complete the circuit together because they are "out of phase". This is why 240 volt circuits connect to double pole breakers that are essentially two single pole breakers tied together. In the main panel, every other breaker is out of phase with the adjoining breakers. So, in essence 240 volt wiring is powered by 2 - 120 volt hot wires that are 180 degrees out of phase.

    I previously mentioned "straight" 240 volt appliances, but there is another class of 240 volt equipment; some appliances (such as clothes dryers and ranges) use 240 volt current to power their main function (drying clothes or cooking food) but use 120 volt current to power accessories such as the clock on your stove or the light inside the oven, or the digital readout on your dryer controls. That is why some 240 volt circuits have four wires:


    1) A black wire which is often known as the "hot" wire, which carries the current in to the fixture.
    2) Another "hot" wire which is red, which also carries current in to the fixture.
    3) A white wire called the neutral which completes the electrical circuit for the 120 volt accessories only.
    4) A bare copper wire called the ground, the sole function of which is to enhance user safety.


    At one time, the code allowed for one insulated wire to function as both ground and neutral in 120 / 240 volt combo circuits, but now all such circuits must use the 4 wire scheme. This is why your new dryer (or electric range) might have 4 prongs on its plug and your old dryer receptacle only has 3 holes. In which case article 250.140 of the 2005 N.E.C. (National Electric Code) allows for the "pigtail" (the cord and plug assembly) to be changed to match the old 3 wire receptacle as long as certain conditions are met. The National Electric Code allows that, but your local code might not, so check first, or even better yet make a deal with the appliance dealer to do it for you.

    Related Articles:
    •The basics of installing 220 circuits

  7. #27
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    Warren, just to clarify, I didn't say your GFIs didn't have overload protection. Just that not all of them do.

  8. #28
    Registered Member warren57's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rick_L View Post
    Warren, just to clarify, I didn't say your GFIs didn't have overload protection. Just that not all of them do.
    Oh no, I understand. I've never seen one that didn't, but there's a lot of thing I've never seen!!!! And, unfortunately a lot more things I wish I had seen but will likely not. It's amazing what there is in this country that we are to busy to see when we are young and don't have the energy to see when we get old!

  9. #29
    Registered Member warren57's Avatar
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    RIGHT ON, that's what we have all been trying to say (in our own words)!!!!

  10. #30
    Registered Member chevynut's Avatar
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    Thank you guys for all your input on this issue. It really helped. I left the 6/2 wire in place, and we drywalled over it. So it's a done deal. I will probably pass on the welder, and look at getting an inverter model if I upgrade. I may get the cooling setup for my current welder though.
    56 Nomad, Ramjet 502, Viper 6-speed T56, C4 Corvette front and rear suspension


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    56 Chevy 2-door BelAir sedan
    56 Chevy 210 4-door sedan
    57 Chevy 210 4-door sedan
    1962 327/340HP Corvette
    1961 Willys CJ3B Jeep
    2001 Porsche Boxster S
    2003 Chevy Silverado 2500 HD Duramax
    2019 GMC Sierra Denali Duramax

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