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Thread: Cecil the lion

  1. #11
    Registered Member chevynut's Avatar
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    What are the odds of them luring a lion out of the park from a mile away? If they really were after that particular lion, I think they would have been closer to the park. Hell, they probably could have legally hunted right on the boundary if their licenses were legal. And how far inside the park did the lion usually stay? I personally doubt the PH would have targeted that particular lion knowing they were tracking it daily. He had to have known it would mean trouble for him.
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  2. #12
    Registered Member smooth 56's Avatar
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    Chevy I agree with what your saying but money and greed will make people do crazy things.I use to hunt in Ill.that place is eat up with outfitters you would be surprised at what those guys would do to make sure the paid hunter shot a deer.

  3. #13
    Registered Member Maddog's Avatar
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    HARARE, Zimbabwe (AP) — Zimbabwe intends to seek the extradition of an American dentist who killed a lion that was lured out of a national park and shot with a bow and a gun, and the process has already begun, a Cabinet minister said Friday."Unfortunately it was too late to apprehend the foreign poacher as he had already absconded to his country of origin," Oppah Muchinguri, Zimbabwe's environment, water and climate minister, told a news conference. "We are appealing to the responsible authorities for his extradition to Zimbabwe so that he be made accountable."
    On Tuesday, American hunter Walter James Palmer issued a statement saying he relied on his guides to ensure the hunt was legal. Two Zimbabweans — a professional hunter and a farm owner — have been arrested in the killing of the lion known as Cecil, a killing garnered worldwide condemnation.
    "There has been an outcry," Muchinguri said. "Almost 500,000 people are calling for his extradition and we need this support. We want him tried in Zimbabwe because he violated our laws."

    She did not explain the 500,000 but there are online petitions demanding Palmer's extradition.
    "I have already consulted with the authorities within the police force who are responsible for arresting the criminal. We have certain processes we have to follow," Muchinguri said at the offices of the national parks and wildlife authority. "Police should take the first step to approach the prosecutor general who will approach the Americans. The processes have already started."
    The Cabinet minister said both Palmer and professional hunter Theo Bronkhorst violated the Parks and Wildlife Act, which controls the use of bow and arrow hunting. She said Palmer, who reportedly paid $50,000 to hunt the lion, also violated the act through financing an illegal hunt. The landowner violated the act because he "allowed a hunt to be conducted without a quota and necessary permit," Muchinguri said.
    There is an extradition treaty between Zimbabwe and the United States. The U.S. Embassy in Zimbabwe said Friday that it does not comment on extradition matters.

    Muchinguri accused Palmer of "a well-orchestrated agenda which would tarnish the image of Zimbabwe and further strain the relationship between Zimbabwe and the USA."
    Zimbabwe and the United States have often sparred over the years. The southern African country has blamed its economic woes on U.S. sanctions against President Robert Mugabe and close associates, though many commentators have attributed Zimbabwe's economic decline to mismanagement. Washington imposed the penalties on Zimbabwe because of human rights concerns. More broadly, Mugabe has long railed against what he calls Western meddling in Africa, saying it is an extension of the colonial rule of the past.
    Palmer is believed to have shot the lion with a bow on July 1 outside Hwange National Park, after it was lured onto private land with a carcass of an animal laid out on a car, Zimbabwean conservationists have said. Some 40 hours later, the wounded cat was tracked down and Palmer allegedly killed it with a gun, they said.
    Palmer, 55, is a dentist in the Minneapolis suburb of Bloomington. In a note to his patients, he wrote: "I understand and respect that not everyone shares the same views on hunting." He said he would resume his dental practice "as soon as possible."
    The lion's head, which was severed by the hunters, has been confiscated by the wildlife authorities, according to Director of National Parks and Wildlife Edson Chidziya.

  4. #14
    Registered Member chevynut's Avatar
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    Smooth I don't understand what you're trying to say. If you're saying the PH might be guilty of breaking the law, I agree. But I don't think the hunter himself did anything illegal. I think the ONLY issue here is whether the area had a lion quota or not.

    The place they hunted was private and they had permission to hunt there so that was legal.
    The proximity to the park is irrelevant, so that was legal.
    The baiting or "luring" was legal.
    The bow and arrow hunt was legal.
    Hunting at night is legal in Africa.
    Cecil walked off of the park so he was legal game.

    What law did the hunter himself break? It's the PH's responsibility to ensure that the hunt is conducted legally for his client.

    The hunter probably had no clue whether or not there was a legal quota set for the area. He just paid for the hunt. People are going crazy about this issue, and say he shouldn't have shot a collared lion. I saw the videos of Cecil, and I saw no collar.
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  5. #15
    Registered Member smooth 56's Avatar
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    Chevy I'm not saying the hunter did anything wrong your rite it is up to the ph. That's what I mean the outfitter would only get there hunting rate if he didn't get the animal he was wanting to hunt.So they make sure that you at least get a shot at it and if you bring blood they get paid.And your rite if it was me I would be relying on what the PH said if he said shoot hell I would shoot not knowing what was going on.The outfitters over there have a price list of the animals that they hunt planes game is a set price all others have a higher price depending on the animal you are hunting.I sold a hunt to a doctor he went just for the planes game package but when he returned he had taken a few other that wasn't part of the package.He said he would just ask how much did that just cost me lol he ended up spending a lot of money while he was there.

  6. #16
    Registered Member chevynut's Avatar
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    I have to laugh at the morons on the other site who say that nobody should shoot anything they don't eat. And how "trophy hunting" is so horrible and should be stopped.

    The fact is someone is probably eating Cecil. His carcass was probably given to the locals to consume. It's very difficult, if not illegal, to bring meat into the US from another country. So when a hunter goes overseas to hunt, the outfitter often serves game that others have shot as meals to the next clients. The meat that the outfitter can't use is given to the locals to eat.

    I consider myself a "trophy hunter" <GASP!> I shoot and kill things I don't eat <another GASP!>!

    When I go elk, deer, bear, caribou, antelope, sheep, goat, or whatever hunting, I try to get the largest animal I can in terms of horns, antlers, skull, etc. I hunt partially for the "trophy" and the meat is a bonus. I hunt with a bow and arrow almost exclusively. When I shoot any of the above, I eat the meat. I also give some away to friends and relatives when I have too much, which isn't very often. In fact, it's a LAW in most states that all edible portions of a game animal must be recovered. I shoot prairie dogs (not a game animal) and I don't eat them....but something does. I shoot coyotes (considered a varmint, not a gam eanimal) and I don't eat them...but something does. NOTHING goes to waste in nature, it ALL gets eaten by something. Even if they left Cecil's carcass, it will feed birds, hyenas, and other carnivores. NOTHING Is "wasted".

    Maybe that Canadian idiot should be forced to eat every skunk he runs over with his car, or every mouse he traps in his house. LOL! HE KILLED THEM!

    So am I some kind of "villain" just because I search out the largest racked animal I can get? What difference does it make whether I shoot the first one I see or let him walk so I can find a bigger one and perhaps end up going home empty-handed? I have passed on many animals in the field and gone home empty many times. Is that bad? I have been to NM and MT on "trophy" elk hunts several times, and still have not filled. I paid my tag fees of $750-1000 per hunt (several thousands by now) to support the game management departments, and I harvested nothing in either state so far. I am going to NM again in September for another try.

    It took me 18 years to draw a sheep license in Colorado. I've been applying for 13 years in Montana, and 10 years in Utah. I've applied for moose in CO for 17 years now and 10 years in MT, several years in UT, and have never drawn a tag. Every application costs me money even if I don't draw. When you wait this long to be able to hunt, you really want to get a big one to mount. What's the point of hunting sheep if you don't mount the head or the whole animal? These hunts, by definition, are "trophy" hunts. Whose business is it how I decide to spend my money?

    And what's wrong with hanging trophies on your wall? I have a dozen of them, including a life-sized mountain goat. It's a tribute to the animal imo. Some people walk into my house and love all the mounts...others not so much. That's their problem, not mine. I like them...they remind me of my hunting adventures.

    The moron canadian libtard over there says he doesn't understand why people hunt when they don't need to, thinks trophy hunting is wrong, believes that the $50K this hunter spent to shoot a lion could have been used for better purposes, and that you should eat everything you shoot. Well, those are his opinions....let's look at this:

    There are lots of people who don't understand why we have old, unsafe, polluting cars that we spend an absurd $50-100K+ building. Should a person be allowed to "waste" money like that? And why does anyone "need" any more than 100 horsepower in a car? 100 horsepower is enough to get you from point A to point B. Most of these cars do not conform to current safety requirements, they have no air bags, often no seatbelts, no collapsible steering columns, nothing. Why should people be allowed to drive them? Most of these cars get under 15 mpg and don't have any pollution controls such as cats, air pumps, EGRs, etc. Why should they be allowed to waste gas like that? They pollute more than new cars so why are people allowed to drive them? Why does anyone need a "trophy" garage with multiples of these old cars in it? Why should people be allowed to put non-stock "pretty" wheels on their cars and waste money on them? Noise pollution is a big problem with some of these old cars with loud mufflers. They should be illegal, right?

    The point of all of this is that everyone has their own interests. Just because you don't like to do what someone else does, doesn't mean you should condemn them and try to stop what they're doing as long as it's legal. After all, your hobby could be NEXT.
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  7. #17
    Registered Member chevynut's Avatar
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    Smooth, I have looked at African hunts often and plan to go some day when I can find a hunting partner willing to go. They do have hunt "packages" for reasonable prices. $4000-5000 for 5 animals in the package. I have also seen daily rated with trophy fees.

    It really bothers me that they keep calling this lion hunter a "poacher". They've already convicted him before all the facts are out. IMO he's not a poacher no matter what happens, unless he somehow KNEW there was no lion quota for the area he hunted in. I really don't believe they "targeted" Cecil, because that would have been stupid given his celebrity. And they talk about "luring" him out with bait...so what? It's legal in Africa and in many places in the US to use bait. If this would have been any other lion than Cecil, we wouldn't have heard one word about it.
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  8. #18
    Registered Member chevynut's Avatar
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    Everyone is making such a big deal about Walter Palmer's past "conviction" for illegal bear hunting. Here's the story on that:

    http://heavy.com/news/2015/07/walter...a-dentist-dds/

    So he somehow, inadvertently shot a bear outside Wisconsin Subzone A1, which is INSIDE of Zone A, which is all a legal bear hunting area. Everything he was in was a legal hunting area but he was only licensed to hunt Subzone A1. A Zone A hunter could hunt in Subzone A1 but not vice versa. When stopped and questioned about it, he said he thought he was in Subzone A1.

    The complaint says that "after LEARNING that the bear had been killed illegally", the [hunters] agreed to say it was killed in Subzone A1. So he was convicted of "lying" about where the bear was actually shot. Big deal...it was a dead bear regardless and many other bears were shot in the same area.

    Personally I don't see this as a very serious hunting offense. But the media is having a fit over it and the antis are running with it.

    I got cited for "driving" on state trust land in CO two years ago. I drove on a county road until it ended. The sign said "End of county road" and that was it. I stopped at two ranch houses to ask about continuing to drive on the road, but nobody was there. So I decided to drive further. We ended up at a cattle guard and on the fence was a big sign that said "Sand Creek State Wildlife area. There were vehicle tracks into the area on a well-traveled road. We reached a place where the road forked, and there were vehicle tracks on that other fork so we took it. There were no signs until about a mile in we came upon a gate that said "No vehicles beyond this point" so we parked there and packed in to hunt.

    After a couple days we heard some chainsawing below us and I got uncomfortable with things. I told my son and his friend that we should pack back out and go to the ranch to make sure we were legal. We stopped at a ranch house and talked to the owner. He told us the Game and Fish was looking for us. So we drove to town and went to the Game and Fish to straighten things out. I explained that the signage was very confusing, and we thought we were legally on the property, which we were. It was how we got there that was the issue. He said "it happens all the time" up there.

    Regardless of the fact that we came down voluntarily, interrupting our hunt, and tried to get everything sorted out, the asshole G&F officer cited us for driving on the state land. I told him it was obvious that others were doing it but he said some people were "authorized" to do so. We found an outfitter trailer back on the road a ways, and he was obviously allowed to do that. That was partly why we thought we were legal. What we did was not that big of a deal, and we voluntarily came down to address it. I asked the G&F to just give us a warning citation due to our cooperation but the dumfuk wouldn't do that. We could have just as easily stayed there and come home later....they may not have pursued us at all.

    Anyhow, I fought the ticket. I traveled back up there since I was retired (wouldn't have done it otherwise) and went to court. I explained my case to the DA and said the G&F was negligent in providing proper signage and even told me "it happens all the time". The G&F official said they don't have to put up any signage at all, and it was my fault for not reading their brochure properly. I said if they had so many issues with it they should inform hunters with proper signs to prevent this from happening, instead of letting it "happen all the time". All they needed to do was put up a sign that said "No public road access beyond this point" or similar. The DA agreed with me, and offered a plea bargain just to get me out of there. I got 6 months "probation" after which everything was dropped, and I paid a $50 fine and lost no points on my hunting license. After the 6 months everything would be wiped off my record. I demanded that the G&F be required to address the signage issue in return for the deal, and the DA agreed. I heard there are better signs there now.

    The point is, people could argue that I was "convicted" of trespassing or illegally entering property when it was really a misunderstanding and negligence on the part of the G&F that contributed to it.
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  9. #19
    Registered Member smooth 56's Avatar
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    Well I figured that thread on the other site would be closed and it was Lol.Yeah the comments were pretty sad the 2 Canadians if you ask me are tree huggers they have no idea what there talking about.
    I hunt like you Chevy I don't just kill anything that walks in I wait on something that's worth the effort.Once the animal is down the work begins like you there is more times that I come home empty handed rather than just fill a tag.
    If you ever get to go to Africa you will have a ball. The hunts we did and sold were archery only some of the most exciting hunting you will ever do. Just be prepared to wait on the animals that you harvest it takes a while to get them threw customs and if you kill a warthog it takes even longer. Oh yea none of the meat goes to waste ether you will eat it while your there or it is donated to the village people nothing goes to waste there.

  10. #20
    Registered Member chevynut's Avatar
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    Now more truth is coming out to counter the hoopla and lies:

    http://www.foxnews.com/world/2015/07.../?intcmp=hpbt4

    "Bronkhorst also told the Telegraph that Palmer's party never intended to hunt on the farmland where Cecil was killed, which is adjacent to a national park. He said he group was late getting started on the day's hunting because Palmer's luggage was late in arriving. "At the last minute I had to divert from a [hunting] concession about eight miles away," Bronkhorst said."

    "Bronkhorst tells the Telegraph he first saw Cecil at around 10 p.m. on the night of July 1, describing him as "a magnificent animal." He said Palmer fired an arrow at the lion, which disappeared into some tall grass.

    "Bow and arrow wounds are different to gun wounds, and they don’t show much. But we couldn’t do anything that night," Bronkhorst said. The hunters returned the next day, when Bronkhorst says Palmer killed Cecil with a bow-and-arrow. Only then, when hunters examined the lion's carcass, did they notice Cecil's collar.

    "I was devastated," Bronkhorst said. "I could not have seen the collar at night. We would never shoot a collared animal. I was devastated, and so was [Palmer], we were both upset, and I panicked and took it off and put it in a tree.

    "I should have taken it to [the Zimbabwe Parks and Wildlfe Management Authority], I admit that. ... We took the head and skin, as the client had paid for the trophy."

    So he didn't suffer for "40 hours" as has been claimed. This is a common occurrence for bowhunters, or any hunters. You hit an animal in the evening and have to wait until the next day to recover it. That's so you don't jump a wounded animal and have it run off only to lose it. Or it could be dangerous game. I shot a bear in Idaho with my bow one evening...I was confident it was dead but it ran down a steep mountainside into a deep ravine. My hunting partner was scared to go after it in the dark, so we had to wait until morning to recover it. It was dead at the bottom of the ravine. But what if it wasn't and we went after it the night before? In this case the lion was still alive and could have killed the men.

    "Zimbabwe authorities, however, have not announced any charges against Palmer, only saying they want to speak with him and the U.S. embassy was not aware of any extradition requests."

    And Palmer was NOT targeting Cecil in his hunt like some people have claimed. Neither was the PH.

    "In a statement to the Minneapolis Star-Tribune, Palmer expressed regret. "I had no idea that the lion I took was a known, local favorite, was collared and part of a study until the end of the hunt... I deeply regret that my pursuit of an activity I love and practice responsibly and legally resulted in the taking of this lion,” he said."

    And finally, this hunt had ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with a crossbow like a lot of articles have claimed. In fact, most bowhunters don't believe in using crossbows and CO specifically outlaws them during the archery season, as do many states.
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